The Year of Reading Proust discussion
The Fugitive, vol. 6
>
Through Sunday, 17 Nov.: The Fugitive
date
newest »
newest »
message 151:
by
Marcus
(new)
Nov 18, 2013 01:31PM
Reem re: Dostoyevski...i read one critic who while generally raving said he couldn't write endings
reply
|
flag
Marcus wrote: "Reem re: Dostoyevski...i read one critic who while generally raving said he couldn't write endings"lol, that's good to know Marcus because I never read one.
Well, I love him. Try The Idiot. It's really more about Natasya Phillipovna than Prince Myshkin (the "idiot"). Writing in a highly puritanical and censored culture, Dostoyevsky wrote a brilliant novel about what child molestation does to a woman...And who can top the ending of The Brothers Karamazov?
Elizabeth wrote: "Well, I love him. Try The Idiot. It's really more about Natasya Phillipovna than Prince Myshkin (the "idiot"). Writing in a highly puritanical and censored culture, Dostoyevsky wrote a brilliant..."I did try The Idiot, and I most definitely want to read The Brothers Karamazov. I think Elizabeth that I was reading Dostoyevsky at a time where I really didn't have the time to sit and read him carefully, and that then I was a different kind of reader. It may have also had to do with the fact that the book was from the library and had to go back. Excuses, excuses, I promise to try again! After finishing ISOLT, I will have no excuse for not finishing another book, will I? lol
Hope this isn't a spoiler...but TBK begins with the Karamazov family assembled in Father Zossima's cell in the local monastery, to try to resolve their differences. It is uncannily like a Jerry Springer episode.re being older and reading. I had to read Henry James, of course, being an English Literature major...and it went whoosh right over my head. Reading him decades later, I finally 1) got it and 2) enjoyed him.
Elizabeth wrote: "Hope this isn't a spoiler...but TBK begins with the Karamazov family assembled in Father Zossima's cell in the local monastery, to try to resolve their differences. It is uncannily like a Jerry Sp..."I want to read Henry James again. I started The Ambassadors and found it to be the most difficult read ever! Needless to say, I put it down. Proustitute had mentioned earlier this year that we could read it as a group. I would like that.
Henry James is one of my top favorites. I have been making today preliminary list of books I would like to read next year. James should be there. The first one for me is The Aspern Papers ( Venice again). James is more difficult than Proust, more abstract although may be Proust has a more complex structure.
Kalliope wrote: "Henry James is one of my top favorites. I have been making today preliminary list of books I would like to read next year. James should be there. The first one for me is The Aspern Papers ( Ven..."I find Henry James more difficult than Proust too! If you read The Aspern Papers (I failed twice to get through it already!), I'd like to tag along... :)
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Henry James is one of my top favorites. I have been making today preliminary list of books I would like to read next year. James should be there. The first one for me is The As..."Ok.. I will let you know, BP.. I was going to start reading it during my Venice trip, but it was non-stop and now I want to finish several books I am currently reading...
That is reassuring that you both also think James a harder read than Proust. Yes, put him on the oh so, so long list and let us read together. :)
Reem: The Ambassadors (in my humble opinion) is not one of James' best. Try the short stories; or The Portrait of a Lady, or Washington Square.Re your remark: "After finishing ISOLT, I will have no excuse for not finishing another book, will I?" Think of it as becoming a tennis champion in order to play badminton...
Elizabeth wrote: Think of it as becoming a tennis champion in order to play badminton... lol Elizabeth. Will do so. I didn't finish reading The Portrait of a Lady which I found very readable, but I was trying to read it at the same time that I was reading Franzen's The Corrections, and I caught a summer cold and returned both books to the library. I had also seen a few you tube videos of the movie, and kept reading through Nicole Kidman's voice, and figured I needed to come back to it later. Once vacationing in Perdido Key, I grabbed a book off the shelves of the condo apt we were renting, and it was a collection of short stories by Henry James that I remember I devoured. I couldn't for the life of me tell you the title.
I read a collection of short stories mostly set in Venice which I loved - also enjoyed Portrait of a Lady and What Maisie Knew but he is long-winded in the novels. I think he is more disciplined in the short stories
And What Did Maisie Know? Maisie didn't know jack. As the book of Proverbs truly says, "There is nothing new under the sun," including idiot parents who use their small child as a pawn.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Honestly Kalliope you bring so much to our reading that I feel sorry for the pour souls who have to read Proust on their own. That is not to take away from the rest of you that bring so much analys..And lucky the future readers who will find this group"
Just now catching up with these posts...and am definitely going to Venice after reading Kaillope!
Reem...try searching for "Proust reading group."
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Henry James is one of my top favorites. I have been making today preliminary list of books I would like to read next year. James should be there. The first one for me is The As..."Started The Aspern Papers yesterday, and I keep thinking the (another unnamed Narrator) is as fascinated with Aspern as we are with Proust...
Kalliope wrote: "The word "crépusculaire" acts like a key to memories of Albertine....Proust used it in his last letter to Agostinelli...."
Confused...I thought it was from Alfred Agostinelli's letter to Proust.
Proust "attributed to Albertine a line from Alfred’s last letter: 'that melancholy
occasion which she was to describe in her last letter as ‘a double twilight since night was falling and we were about to part.' " Carter's biography.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The word "crépusculaire" acts like a key to memories of Albertine....Confused...I thought it was from Alfred Agostinelli's ..."
I just checked and I am quoting from Proust's last letter to Agostinelli, written the same day the latter had died and which therefore he never read.
But Proust in this letter makes reference to a previous letter from Agostinelli, saying that he had liked his use of the word "crépusculaire"..
This must be the confusion... Carter is referring directly to the content of the letter while the Intro of the GF edition is giving the actual letter (which is what I refer to).
In this letter, Proust continues on to quote Mallarmé's poem Le Cygne, also as a reference to a poem that they both liked.. so again a private "key" between them... Somewhere we have been posting about Léda and the swan...
Kalliope wrote: "Started The Aspern Papers yesterday, and I keep thinking the (another unnamed Narrator) is as fascinated with Aspern as we are with Proust..."I'm going to try to unearth my copy and join you. :)
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "SI'm going to try to unearth my copy ..."
Good... I still have to finish my Magic Mountain... so I will not advance with the Aspern papers much in the coming days.
Kalliope wrote: "Either in the Lounge or in last week's thread it was mentioned that the Venice visit was written earlier on.The preface to the GF has an excellent list of the Cahiers, with their dates and their contents."
I find this the most fascinating. At "Rewriting Proust" at The Center for Fiction, November 19th, Elyane Dezon-Jones said that Proust may be begun working on his novel as early as 1906-7.
Book Portrait wrote: "I cannot find the text online (Eugene quotes parts and it's page 310 in the GF http://www.jacqueslan..."
This coat is from 1934, so maybe one prior to the year he was writing Maria Hahn, 1916, or when he first connected Fortuny with Carpaccio.
Gown, abrigo largo en terciopelo de seda color burdeos con decoración polícroma estampada en beis, azul, verde y dorado. Mariano Fortuny y Madrazo. 1934 Museo del Traje. CIPE (See page 8 in the link below.)
http://www.mcu.es/principal/docs/nove...
Also...Video: "Inspiraciones. Mariano Fortuny"
Exposition about Mariano Fortuny. Madrid, Spain
https://vimeo.com/12667153
The Venetian Fashion Pages In 1916, Proust wrote to Maria Hahn.
"He wrote to Hahn's sister, Maria de Madrazo, to obtain information about Fortuny dresses. Mariano Fortuny y Madrazo, the famous Venetian couturier.[...] He particularly wanted to know whether or not Fortuny had ever used as motifs 'for his dressing— gowns . . . those coupled birds, drinking for example from a vase, which are so recurrent on the Byzantine
capitals in St Mark's.' " Carter, Marcel Proust: A Life, with a New Preface by the Author
books.google.com/books?isbn=0300191790
Kalliope posted wonderful images of the "drinking birds" in a previous thread.
message 32: by Kalliope:
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Carpaccio
Carpaccio
This Fortuny seems more like the Carpaccio, with the free-flowing fabric and the tassled hood. (?)
http://www.marcelproust.it/proust/car...
Burnous en terciopelo de seda color verde, con decoración estarcida en plateado. Mariano Fortuny y Madrazo. 1921 Museo del Traje. CIPE (See page 7 in link blow.)
http://www.mcu.es/principal/docs/nove...
Marcelita wrote: "Also...Video: "Inspiraciones. Mariano Fortuny"Exposition about Mariano Fortuny. Madrid, Spain"
Very nice. I was surprised I could understand most of what he said (I had 12 years of Spanish in school but I never had the opportunity to live there...). He talks of 'espacio'... I wonder if it was a temporary exhibition or a permanent new wing in the Museo del Traje...
Lol. Clearly this is not the coat Proust had in mind but it suits Carpaccio's painting... :)
Marcelita wrote: "The Venetian Fashion Pages In 1916, Proust wrote to Maria Hahn.
"He wrote to Hahn's sister, Maria de Madrazo, to obtain information about Fortuny dresses. Mariano Fortuny y Madrazo, the famous V..."
Yes, the letter to Maria de Madrazo was posted, in French, in the Albertine Disparue volume, because the Introduction to the GF edition elaborates on the Fortuny Leitmotiv, which is then developed further in the two subsequent volumes.
Marcelita wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "I cannot find the text online (Eugene quotes parts and it's page 310 in the GF http://www.jacqueslan..."
This coat is from 1934, so maybe one prior to the year he was writin..."
Thank you for these links Marcelita.
BP, the "espacio" refers to a temporary exhibition although the Museum has a good collection of his items.
Marcelita wrote: "This coat is from 1934, so maybe one prior to the year he was writin..."
The pamphlet on the exhibition presents two films which used Fortuny's Delphos dress.
One of them is this one, with Rudolph Valentino, and I just ordered the DVD... Based on a novel by Blasco Ibañez, who also lived in Paris.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0012952/?...
or
As well as The Affairs of Anatole (el Señorito Primavera) with Gloria Swanson, and the Delphos dress again...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0011909/?...
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The word "crépusculaire" acts like a key to memories of Albertine....Confused...I thought it was from Alfred Agostinelli's ..."
I just checked and I am quoting..."
So, Alfred wrote about the "double twilight" and Proust responded/referred to the same in his letter that was returned, due to AA's death?
Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "And I think we should be pleased with ourselves in this group for having paid attention to the leitmotiv of Fortuny in the previous volume.He is bro..."
More on Fortuny and Wagner exhibit from last spring:
http://fortuny.visitmuve.it/en/mostre...
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The word "crépusculaire" acts like a key to memories of Albertine....I just checked..."
Yes, and it sounded like the word "crépuscule" already had a personal meaning for them both.. The Narrator writes about Albertine being intelligent and becoming more and more educated.. This use of the word "crépuscule", and the interest in Mallarmé, seems a sample of this.
Kalliope wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "I don't think that I could ever listen to O Sole Mio again without thinking of the Narrator's despair and sadness, and seeing the magic of Venice crumbling and vanishing. The sun as the promise of happiness (une promesse de joie), which for him never arrives..."
Love this...
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The word "crépusculaire" acts like a key to memories of Albertine....I just checked..."
Yes, and it sounded like the word "crépuscule"
...personal meaning for them both."
This passage is one of the most poignant in the novel...the "double twilight" foreshadowing the deaths of both A's. Thank you, Kalliope, for researching this for us.
Whenever we dip into Marcel's personal life...I always return to CSB.
Aside:
http://www.fabula.org/atelier.php?Pro...
http://translate.google.com/translate...
Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "I love the description of the angels - and it is good to be able to read Proust's description while looking at the images posted here... We visited the Scrovegni chapel at night, and it is an unforgettable visit. One can stay only 15 minutes and before going in one has to spend 15 more minutes in a room which absorbs humidity from the bodies."
I, too, returned to Proust's description when I saw Kalliope's images. Thank you!
The de-humidifying room has been circling in my thoughts...so evocative. Did it heighten your anticipation? In addition to preserving the work, it evokes a sense of a cleansing ritual.
On personal notes...I have been working on foreshortening in drawing. Giotto's angels are a sky full of foreshortened creatures. I'm inwardly groaning at drawing a model who will be costumed as an angel on Tuesday. I will try to hold front and center Giotto's angels as inspiration. I will have to repeat this like a mantra! ;-)
Eugene wrote: "I was ready to hear the Narrator discourse on the beauty of 'his promised' Venice as he did on hearing Vinteuil's septet instead he remembers Albertine, chases poor Venetian women, scares off Austrian tourists with his homophobic questioning, receives a telegram from the dead woman, and finally has an hallucinogenic tantrum to O Solo Mio because Mamma wants to leave Venice before Mme Putbus's maid arrives."I laughed out loud when I read this. I agree with Eugene. The Narrator has certainly proved he can be insufferable...he finally arrives in his much anticipated Venice...only to be HIMSELF.
Which, in fact, is true of all of us...we can travel far and wide...always accompanied by our own flawed self. We can run, but we can't hide.
I saw a bit of Victorian novel drama in this section...ie: the Albertine telegram. Cliffhanger. "Improbable" (as BP said) soap opera.
Elizabeth wrote: "Reem: The Ambassadors (in my humble opinion) is not one of James' best. Try the short stories; or The Portrait of a Lady, or Washington Square.Re your remark: "After finishing ISOLT, I will have..."
Please include me in the desire to read James list!
I am dashing these comments off quickly. I want to catch up with the other discussion threads and my reading of Time Regained for our end of the year.I found the end of The Fugitive disappointing. The different aspect of Robert de Saint-Loup did not hold together for me. I appreciate the discussion of identity in this thread...and in well-developed characters as well as in life at large I also find the reflections, deflections...and multiple facets of human beings fascinating. Proust, as we all have seen in these many volumes, is a master at character development and laser like in exploring our maddening deceptions.
The revelation of Robert as homosexual seemed prurient. Muddled. Something was missing. Not to mention I simply didn't find the Narrator's reports believable. And it seemed extraneous...at this point in my reading I fail to grasp the significance of the Saint-Loup exposure.
Other sections of The Captive and The Fugitive felt like transparent veils...unfinished...not quite polished...that allowed glimpses of the author and the thought behind the words. The Robert de Saint-Loup chapter read as a tattered veil to me.
Perhaps I will learn something in Time Regained that pulls this together for me...my mind remains open to that possibility.
Ce Ce wrote: "Other sections of The Captive and The Fugitive felt like transparent veils...unfinished...not quite polished...that allowed glimpses of the author and the thought behind the words. The Robert de Saint-Loup chapter read as a tattered veil to me."I hope you do catch up with the current discussion, and soon, Ce Ce.
Like you, I felt that the Albertine episodes were a diversion from Proust's original plan, and the knitting of them into the text of the Recherche was less than perfect. The Saint-Loup revelations are hastily done and therefore largely unsuccessful. With more time, I think Proust might have done this differently. The last volume is a lot more coherent.
I hope you do catch up with the current discussion, and soon, Ce Ce. "Progress. I just finished page 50 of Time Regained...and am now beginning the 3rd of 5 drawings due on Tuesday.
Since everything erudite and culchad has already been said, I shall have to go back to my peevish child at the feast role and point out where the Emperor is showing his nuts - and bolts, of course, what were you thinking?Are we really expected to believe that the narrator eavesdropped on Mme de Villeparisis and Norpois from behind a pillar for the whole of that conversation between them? It's like a bad silent film.
·Karen· wrote: "Are we really expected to believe that the narrator eavesdropped on Mme de Villeparisis and Norpois from behind a pillar for the whole of that conversation between them? It's like a bad silent film. ."Ah Karen, I think you have to leave your realism behind that pillar with the Narrator!
But I'm glad you've arrived in Venice and before you know it you'll be back in Paris with the rest of us...
·Karen· wrote: "Since everything erudite and culchad has already been said, I shall have to go back to my peevish child at the feast role and point out where the Emperor is showing his nuts - and bolts, of course,..."I like to think, this was the first of maybe several re-rewrites.
Anything after Sodom and Gomorrah is "unfinished" in my mind.
Papers/letters/notes discovered after Proust died indicated he was thinking of cutting 250 pages from The Captive! Bergotte's death? The Fortuny dress? The meditation on music and Vinteuil? Or the obsessive jealous feelings regarding Albertine?
One of my favorite videos...from French TV...with a BnF curator showing the large Kirby @ :24, notebooks and the extensive editing. (You see him wheeling in @2:00 the "treasure chest!")
You may need to Click-Top Right, if there is a advertisement. (Yep, just like here.)
http://www.wat.tv/video/decouverte-ma...
Also, in the video, is Patricia Mantes-Proust, his great grand-niece.
http://translate.google.com/translate...
Eugene: I googled "polyamorist." Now I know what to call my second husband. V. painful to live with. No longer do (obviously). 3rd is a wonderful man.'And no, I'm not a fantastically beautiful woman; but I really, really like--truly like men. I think they sense this. I sense men who truly like women (not lust or love, mind you; just simple liking).
Kalliope wrote: "Giotto's angels..."
This is awsome! Beautiful! Precious! Thank you for posting.
Kalliope wrote: "Proust stayed at this hotel:http://danieli.hotelinvenice.com/phot...
It was originally the Palazzo Dandolo, and as one could expect, more famous people stayed there...
The wiki artic..."
Proust actually stayed at the Hotel Europa, in Room 61. (BnF has the book, which Proust documented the room number.)
See page 2/13 or document page 52:
http://marcelproust.pagesperso-orange...
It was on the "terrace" of the Hotel Europa that the famous Venice photo was taken.
History:
Ca' Giustinian is the result of the union of two different buildings: Giustinian (1474) and Badoer-Tiepolo. During the 16th century, they were combined in one, thanks to the internal adjustment of masonries and attics.
-In 1750 it passed from the Giustinian family to the Morosinis.
-In 1817 it was acquired by Arnold Marseille, who turned it into a “Hotel de l’Europe”, that hosted among its guests:
Giuseppe Verdi, who used to occupy a room with a private drawning room and a piano...;
Théophile Gautier wrote some chapters of his Voyage...;
William Turner realised some paintings of the Bacino di San Marco; Marcel Proust stayed there in his journey to Venice round the turn of the 20th century
http://www.labiennale.org/en/biennale...
Weren't we supposed to begin another round of Proust INOLT discussions? In January?
Kalliope wrote: "He mentions the eagle in the context of the Carpaccio's in San Giorgio dei Schiavoni. I have been unable to locate the eagle. In the text the Narrator associates it with one of the Apostles."Robert’s art-tour guide found it for us...on the second floor! Who takes the time to walk upstairs?
Looking for photograph.
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
The Aspern Papers (other topics)Proust, the One, and the Many: Identity and Difference in A La Recherche Du Temps Perdu (other topics)
Jealousy (other topics)
Fortuny, Proust y los Ballets Rusos (other topics)
La vida es sueño (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Guillermo De Osma (other topics)Eric Karpeles (other topics)
Eleonora Marangoni (other topics)
Guillermo De Osma (other topics)
