The Year of Reading Proust discussion

Time Regained (In Search of Lost Time, #7)
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Time Regained, vol. 7 > Through Sunday, 29 Dec.: Time Regained

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message 1: by Jason (last edited Jan 04, 2013 08:25PM) (new) - added it

Jason (ancatdubh2) This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 29 Dec. of Time Regained, finish.


message 2: by Eugene (new)

Eugene | 479 comments One must add that the antipathy which the changeable Duchess had recently come to feel for Gilberte may have caused her to take a certain pleasure in receiving Rachel, a course of conduct which enabled her also to proclaim aloud one of the favourite Guermantes maxims, to wit, that the family was too numerous for its members to have to espouse one another's quarrels (or even, some might have said, to take notice of one another's bereavements), an independence, a spirit of "I can't see that I am obliged" which had been reinforced by the policy that it had been necessary to adopt with regard to M. de Charlus, who, had you followed him, would have involved you in hostilities with all your acquaintances. ML p. 448


message 3: by Eugene (new)

Eugene | 479 comments M. Proust!!!

The dying eyes were still relatively alive, by contrast at least with the terrible ossified mask, and glowed feebly like a snake asleep in the midst of a pile of stones. ML p. 455


message 4: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (last edited Dec 22, 2013 11:32PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Starting CD #111. The last one.

What a wonderful listen this has been.

The readers-actors have brought out Proust's prose so very beautifully and with all its unmediated purity.


message 5: by Book Portrait (last edited Dec 23, 2013 02:37AM) (new) - added it


message 6: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Book Portrait wrote: ""Fin" in the "Cahier XX et dernier"
gFR"



Perfect closing stamp.


message 7: by Martin (new)

Martin Gibbs | 105 comments Proust wrote: "In my life I had been like a painter climbing a road high above a lake, a view of which is denied to him by a curtain of rocks and trees. Suddenly through a gap in the curtain he sees the lake, its whole expanse is before him, he takes up his brushes. But already the night is at hand, the night ... which no dawn will follow."


message 8: by Fionnuala (new) - added it

Fionnuala | 1142 comments Martin wrote: "Proust wrote: "In my life I had been like a painter climbing a road high above a lake, a view of which is denied to him by a curtain of rocks and trees. Suddenly through a gap in the curtain he sees the lake, its whole expanse is before him, he takes up his brushes. But already the night is at hand, the night ... which no dawn will follow." ..."

Wow, that IS a powerful image, Martin.
I haven't started this last section yet - it makes me said to describe it as the last section..


message 9: by Eugene (new)

Eugene | 479 comments Now that we are finishing the novel I want to revisit things that I value about Proust: the way he says things more so than what he says at times.

I was impressed by the sentence that I quoted in this week's reading, by the 'distance', by the inclusion, of the utterance: Proust goes from the Duchess receiving Rachel (Saint Loup's former mistress) before Gilberte (Saint Loup's widow who doesn't know of his affair with Morel) to a Guermantes maxim, "I can't see that I am obliged" for the Duchess not to receive Rachel in front of Gilberte and that is "reinforced by the policy" regarding another Guermantes, M de Charlus (also a former lover of Morel), then Proust in the same sentence addresses the reader about Charlus, "who, had you followed him" and closes the sentence with a "you" that likens the reader to the Narrator in "hostilities with all your acquaintances."

Again,

One must add that the antipathy which the changeable Duchess had recently come to feel for Gilberte may have caused her to take a certain pleasure in receiving Rachel, a course of conduct which enabled her also to proclaim aloud one of the favourite Guermantes maxims, to wit, that the family was too numerous for its members to have to espouse one another's quarrels (or even, some might have said, to take notice of one another's bereavements), an independence, a spirit of "I can't see that I am obliged" which had been reinforced by the policy that it had been necessary to adopt with regard to M. de Charlus, who, had you followed him, would have involved you in hostilities with all your acquaintances.


message 10: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
I jumped when I read this:

<... mes livres aussi... finiraient un jour par mourir..... On accepte la pensée que...dans cent ans mes livres ne seront plus. p. 466.

No, dear Marcel Proust. You did not guess the future correctly there.

Here we are, one hundred years later, reading in this international and continuous time of 24 hours per day, with a modern "vitesse" that you could not have imagined, in an electronic forum that you could not have fathomed, your books, your very beautiful books and they are well alive...


message 11: by Jocelyne (new)

Jocelyne Lebon | 745 comments Eugene wrote: "Now that we are finishing the novel I want to revisit things that I value about Proust: the way he says things more so than what he says at times.

I was impressed by the sentence that I quoted in..."


I do too, Eugene. The phrasing is what I want to go back to over and over again.


message 12: by Jocelyne (new)

Jocelyne Lebon | 745 comments Kalliope wrote: "I jumped when I read this:

dans cent ans mes livres ne seront plus. p. 466.

No, dear Marcel Proust. You did not guess the future correctly there.

Here we are, one hundred years later, reading i..."


And he would be delighted to find out he was wrong.


message 13: by Jocelyne (new)

Jocelyne Lebon | 745 comments I love the narrator's musings on time passing and memory. "...Rien n'est plus douloureux que cette oppostion entre l'altération des êtres et la fixité du souvenir...." and a couple of pages later, "car si notre vie est vagabonde, notre mémoire est sédentaire, et nous avons beau nous élancer....comme s'il était là encore, au pied de l'église,devant le port, ou sous les arbres du cours."


Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments Eugene wrote: "M. Proust!!!

The dying eyes were still relatively alive, by contrast at least with the terrible ossified mask, and glowed feebly like a snake asleep in the midst of a pile of stones. ML p. 455"


This sentence is stunningly vulnerable in its terribly beauty. I caught my breath while reading it.


Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments From the December 22nd thread (message 103) Kalliope wrote: Wouldn't you all love to read the posthumous Memoirs of Mme de Villeparisis?

Not a profound comment on my part, but rather humored as Proust makes his final sweeps...perhaps we are reading Mme de Villeparisis posthumous memoirs in Oriane, the Duchesse de Guermantes.

"...she [the Duchesse] the purest of the pure [in the sense of bloodlines] had now, sacrificing no doubt to that hereditary need for spiritual nourishment which had brought about the social decline of Mme de Villeparisis, herself became a Mme de Villeparisis, in whose house snobbish women were afraid of meeting this or that undesirable and of whom the younger generation, observing the fait accompli and not knowing what had gone before it, supposed that she was a Guermantes from an inferior cask or of a less good vintage, a Guermantes declasse." ML p 466


message 16: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Jocelyne wrote: "I love the narrator's musings on time passing and memory. "...Rien n'est plus douloureux que cette oppostion entre l'altération des êtres et la fixité du souvenir...." and a couple of pages later,..."

I agree. Have finished the section, but now I want to read it again, stopping over those passages... It is all here now.


message 17: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Ce Ce wrote: "From the December 22nd thread (message 103) Kalliope wrote: Wouldn't you all love to read the posthumous Memoirs of Mme de Villeparisis?

Not a profound comment on my part, but rather humored as Pr..."


I remember this and will get back to this... if the characters move across time, they also travel through their social strata.... But with Mme de Villeparisis, particularly in the Venice scenes, we were left to ponder on the rich past that she had had.. would have been fascinating Memoirs.


message 18: by Ce Ce (last edited Dec 23, 2013 12:29PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments Kalliope wrote: "Starting CD #111. The last one.

What a wonderful listen this has been.

Book Portrait wrote: "Fin" in the "Cahier XX et dernier"


I just have to say as I hold the few final pages in my hand I feel such a mixture of emotion. I don't want to read the final words. It represents the end of a year in all of our lives. The end of our community as it exists in this group. And goodbye to some of you until, perhaps, we chance upon another common read in this electronic universe.

Bittersweet.


message 19: by Ce Ce (last edited Dec 23, 2013 04:57PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments Kalliope wrote: "... if the characters move across time, they also travel through their social strata.... But with Mme de Villeparisis, particularly in the Venice scenes, we were left to ponder on the rich past that she had had.. "

I was thinking of the Duchess BECOMING Madame Villeparisis posthumously (we think posthumously given the reincarnation of characters) rather than the movement through social strata...that is how it is manifesting itself...but the Duchess is answering to "a hereditary need for nourishment". I have not finished this section but her husband is back to his wanton ways with women and is snarling at her (that was shocking actually). I wonder does she go so far as to take a lover as we learned Mme Villeparisis did.

What drives these two women of pure bloodline to break free, to walk away, to create a life...at the price of the world they were raised from birth to prize?

I don't know that we will have that answer in these final pages.

Proust doesn't celebrate Oriane's new associations...rather reports them and considers them lacking


Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments I have to confess when Rachel performed her poetry, my vision was that of Yoko Ono's performances in the 70's when no one really seemed to know what to make of them.

The adjustment of facial expressions in response to Rachel in order to be able to respond in full range from appalled to delighted and anywhere in between was quite humorous.


message 21: by Eugene (new)

Eugene | 479 comments ...that hereditary need for spiritual nourishment which had brought about the social decline of Mme de Villeparisis... Ml p. 466

To revisit the Narrator's first salon, that of the "blue stocking" Mme de Villeparisis, the reflective Narrator--the same one who speaks in this volume--mentions the writing of her memoirs and they have to do with her less than "brilliant" salons due to fashionable people avoiding her because her "need for spiritual nourishment". As a younger person, she pursued the arts and artists and shunned people of fashion who never forgot this in their lifetime.

As a reader, I value and find unique the doubleness of narration, on the one hand we have the younger narrator, plodding along like Fionnuala's first time reader, "stumbling down a few blind alleys" and on the other we have a second narrator, a reflective, older and wiser version of the same person who speaks of her memoirs.

Now he mentions a curious thing about her salon--at least until the reading of this volume--that it will be remembered as superior to others more brilliant and more fashionable, because hers was recorded in art, in her memoirs, and is Outside of Time, no matter the truth.


message 22: by Fionnuala (last edited Dec 26, 2013 01:45AM) (new) - added it

Fionnuala | 1142 comments That this last section of Proust coincides with Christhmas ought to be a double pleasure but no! I'm caught up in real life obligations and no one understands my Proust obligations!!
Help - don't finish the discussion without me....


message 23: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Fionnuala wrote: "That this last section of Proust coincides with Christhmas aught to be a double pleasure but no! I'm caught up in real life obligations and no one understands my Proust obligations!!
Help - don't ..."


Haha.. but tomorrow you open Combray..!!!


message 24: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Ce Ce wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "... if the characters move across time, they also travel through their social strata.... But with Mme de Villeparisis, particularly in the Venice scenes, we were left to ponder on ..."

That is an interesting interpretation, CeCe... (you always have them...)

After reading Proust, the meaning of words such as Memoirs, Posthumous, Present, Future etc.... become so much more elastic.

But the comments on how the Duchesse went down in society similarly to the way Mme de Villeparisis had, is a reminder that we the readers, fictionally of the same generation as the Narrator, have made the same wrong judgments on Villeparisis (since we met her once she had dropped from her high social standing), as the new generations (nouveaux arrivés) are making of our haughty Duchesse...

Cycles...


message 25: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Ce Ce wrote: "I have to confess when Rachel performed her poetry, my vision was that of Yoko Ono's performances in the 70's when no one really seemed to know what to make of them.

The adjustment of facial expr..."


Yes, that is a fantastic section and it made me laugh out loud (fou rire).

Worth quoting..

Tout le monde se regardait ne sachant trop quelle tête faire, quelques jeunesses mal élevées étouffèrent un fou rire, chacun jetait à la dérobée sur son voisin le regard furtif que dans les repas élégants, quand on a auprès de soi un instrument nouveau, fourchette à homard, râpe à sucre, etc..., dont on ne connaît pas le but et le maniement, on attache sur un convive plus autorisé qui espère-t-on s'en servira avant vous et vous donnera ainsi la possibilité de l'imiter. p. 415.


message 26: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (last edited Dec 24, 2013 03:31AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
The La Berma episode, with her lonely dinner, is full of pathos... Talking of the metamorphosis that CeCe is seeing in the Duchesse, we see it in La Berma, who is becoming the tragic Phèdre.. with death on her face (la mort sur le visage).

Cette fois c'était bien d'un marbre de l'Érecthéion qu'elle avait l'air. Ses artères durcies étant déjà à demi pétrifiées, on voyait de longs rubans sculpturaux parcourir ses joues, avec une rigidité minérale. Les yeux mourants vivaient relativement par contraste avec ce terrible masque ossifié et brillaient faiblement comme un serpent endormi au milieu des pierres. p. 413.







message 27: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
The complaints of La Berma for the noise coming from the next door renovations, and which do not let her sleep...

.. reminded me of Marcel Prous's complaints addressed to his neighbor Mme Williams, in his
Lettres à sa voisine by Marcel Proust

.. d'où incessants coups de marteau qui interrompaient le sommeil dont la grande tragédienne aurait tant eu besoin. p.412.


message 28: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Are we surprised that Proust has chosen for the Fable of La Fontaine recited by Rachel to be Les Deux pigeons?

Here we have, again, the two birds that we saw in the Venice and Fortuny episodes in the Albertine story....!!!

The English wiki is more interesting than the French, making a stronger point on the ambiguous gender of the two birds. The fable has been taken as a homage to male bonding...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_...

A ballet has also been created based on the fable...(heterosexual version). Music by Messager.




message 29: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
La Fontaine's Fable in French original

Deux pigeons s'aimaient d'amour tendre :
L'un d'eux, s'ennuyant au logis,
Fut assez fou pour entreprendre
Un voyage en lointain pays.
L'autre lui dit : « Qu'allez-vous faire ?
Voulez-vous quitter votre frère ?
L'absence est le plus grand des maux :
Non pas pour vous, cruel ! Au moins, que les travaux,
Les dangers, les soinsdu voyage,
Changent un peu votre courage.
Encor, si la saison s'avançait davantage !
Attendez les zéphyrs. Qui vous presse ? un corbeau
Tout à l'heure annonçait malheur à quelque oiseau.
Je ne songerai plus que rencontre funeste,
Que faucons, que réseaux. « Hélas, dirai-je, il pleut :
« Mon frère a-t-il tout ce qu'il veut,
« Bon soupé, bon gîte, et le reste ? »
Ce discours ébranla le coeur
De notre imprudent voyageur ;
Mais le désir de voir et l'humeur inquiète
L'emportèrent enfin. Il dit : « Ne pleurez point ;
Trois jours au plus rendront mon âme satisfaite ;
Je reviendrai dans peu conter de point en point
Mes aventures à mon frère ;
Je le désennuierai. Quiconque ne voit guère
N'a guère à dire aussi. Mon voyage dépeint
Vous sera d'un plaisir extrême.
Je dirai : « J'étais là ; telle chose m'avint ; »
Vous y croirez être vous-même. »
A ces mots, en pleurant, ils se dirent adieu.
Le voyageur s'éloigne ; et voilà qu'un nuage
L'oblige de chercher retraite en quelque lieu.
Un seul arbre s'offrit, tel encor que l'orage
Maltraita le pigeon en dépit du feuillage.
L'air devenu serein, il part tout morfondu,
Sèche du mieux qu'il peut son corps chargé de pluie,
Dans un champ à l'écart voit du blé répandu,
Voit un pigeon auprès : cela lui donne envie ;
Il y vole, il est pris : ce blé couvrait d'un las
Les menteurs et traîtres appas.
Le las était usé : si bien que, de son aile,
De ses pieds, de son bec, l'oiseau le rompt enfin :
Quelque plume y périt : et le pis du destin
Fut qu'un certain vautour à la serre cruelle, (8)
Vit notre malheureux qui, traînant la ficelle
Et les morceaux du las qui l'avaient attrapé,
Semblait un forçat échappé.
Le vautour s'en allait le lier ,quand des nues
Fond à son tour un aigle aux ailes étendues.
Le pigeon profita du conflit des voleurs,
S'envola, s'abattit auprès d'une masure,
Crut, pour ce coup, que ses malheurs
Finiraient par cette aventure ;
Mais un fripon d'enfant (cet âge est sans pitié)
Prit sa fronde, et, du coup, tua plus d'à moitié
La volatilemalheureuse,
Qui, maudissant sa curiosité,
Traînant l'aile et traînant le pié,
Demi-morte et demi-boiteuse,
Droit au logis s'en retourna :
Que bien, que mal elle arriva
Sans autre aventure fâcheuse.
Voilà nos gens rejoints ; et je laisse à juger
De combien de plaisirs ils payèrent leurs peines.

Amants, heureux amants, voulez-vous voyager ?
Que ce soit aux rives prochaines.
Soyez-vous l'un à l'autre un monde toujours beau,
Toujours divers, toujours nouveau ;
Tenez-vous lieu de tout, comptez pour rien le reste.
J'ai quelquefois aimé: je n'aurais pas alors
Contre le Louvre et ses trésors,
Contre le firmament et sa voûte céleste,
Changé les bois, changé les lieux
Honorés par le pas, éclairés par les yeux
De l'aimable et jeune bergère
Pour qui, sous le fils de Cythère,
Je servis, engagé par mes premiers serments.
Hélas ! Quand reviendront de semblables moments ?
Faut-il que tant d'objets si doux et si charmants
Me laissent vivre au gré de mon âme inquiète ?
Ah! si mon coeur osait encor se renflammer !
Ne sentirai-je plus de charme qui m'arrête ?
Ai-je passé le temps d'aimer ?


message 30: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
I have tried looking for the English translation but only found a short version adapted as a song for Aznavour..

http://www.bewilderingstories.com/iss...

Marcelita will do a much better job.


ReemK10 (Paper Pills) | 1025 comments Kalliope, thank you for this spread of information you've compiled. Here is a you tube of the song:Charles Aznavour - Les Deux Pigeons

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsi9G...


message 32: by ReemK10 (Paper Pills) (last edited Dec 24, 2013 05:10AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) | 1025 comments The Two Doves

Wright, Elizur (1804 - 1885).

1 Two doves once cherish'd for each other

2 The love that brother hath for brother.

3 But one, of scenes domestic tiring,

4 To see the foreign world aspiring,

5 Was fool enough to undertake

6 A journey long, o'er land and lake.

7 What plan is this?' the other cried;

8 Wouldst quit so soon thy brother's side?

9 This absence is the worst of ills;

10 Thy heart may bear, but me it kills.

11 Pray, let the dangers, toil, and care,

12 Of which all travellers tell,

13 Your courage somewhat quell.

14 Still, if the season later were--

15 O wait the zephyrs!--hasten not--

16 Just now the raven, on his oak,

17 In hoarser tones than usual spoke.

18 My heart forebodes the saddest lot,--

19 The falcons, nets--Alas, it rains!

20 My brother, are thy wants supplied--

21 Provisions, shelter, pocket-guide,

22 And all that unto health pertains?'

23 These words occasion'd some demur

24 In our imprudent traveller.

25 But restless curiosity

26 Prevail'd at last; and so said he,--

27 The matter is not worth a sigh;

28 Three days, at most, will satisfy,

29 And then, returning, I shall tell

30 You all the wonders that befell,--

31 With scenes enchanting and sublime

32 Shall sweeten all our coming time.

33 Who seeth nought, hath nought to say.

34 My travel's course, from day to day,

35 Will be the source of great delight.

36 A store of tales I shall relate,--

37 Say there I lodged at such a date,

38 And saw there such and such a sight.

39 You'll think it all occurr'd to you.--'

40 On this, both, weeping, bade adieu.

41 Away the lonely wanderer flew.--

42 A thunder-cloud began to lower;

43 He sought, as shelter from the shower,

44 The only tree that graced the plain,

45 Whose leaves ill turn'd the pelting rain.

46 The sky once more serene above,

47 On flew our drench'd and dripping dove,

48 And dried his plumage as he could.

49 Next, on the borders of a wood,

50 He spied some scatter'd grains of wheat,

51 Which one, he thought, might safely eat;

52 For there another dove he saw.--

53 He felt the snare around him draw!

54 This wheat was but a treacherous bait

55 To lure poor pigeons to their fate.

56 The snare had been so long in use,

57 With beak and wings he struggled loose:

58 Some feathers perish'd while it stuck;

59 But, what was worst in point of luck,

60 A hawk, the cruellest of foes,

61 Perceived him clearly as he rose,

62 Off dragging, like a runaway,

63 A piece of string. The bird of prey

64 Had bound him, in a moment more,

65 Much faster than he was before,

66 But from the clouds an eagle came,

67 And made the hawk himself his game.

68 By war of robbers profiting,

69 The dove for safety plied the wing,

70 And, lighting on a ruin'd wall,

71 Believed his dangers ended all.

72 A roguish boy had there a sling,

73 (Age pitiless!

74 We must confess,)

75 And, by a most unlucky fling,

76 Half kill'd our hapless dove;

77 Who now, no more in love

78 With foreign travelling,

79 And lame in leg and wing,

80 Straight homeward urged his crippled flight,

81 Fatigued, but glad, arrived at night,

82 In truly sad and piteous plight.

83The doves rejoin'd, I leave you all to say,

84 What pleasure might their pains repay.

85 Ah, happy lovers, would you roam?--

86 Pray, let it not be far from home.

87 To each the other ought to be

88 A world of beauty ever new;

89 In each the other ought to see

90 The whole of what is good and true.

91 Myself have loved; nor would I then,

92 For all the wealth of crowned men,

93 Or arch celestial, paved with gold,

94 The presence of those woods have sold,

95 And fields, and banks, and hillocks, which

96 Were by the joyful steps made rich,

97 And smiled beneath the charming eyes

98 Of her who made my heart a prize--

99 To whom I pledged it, nothing loath,

100 And seal'd the pledge with virgin oath.

101Ah, when will time such moments bring again?

102To me are sweet and charming objects vain--

103My soul forsaking to its restless mood?

104 O, did my wither'd heart but dare

105 To kindle for the bright and good,

106 Should not I find the charm still there?

107 Is love, to me, with things that were?


message 33: by ReemK10 (Paper Pills) (last edited Dec 24, 2013 05:28AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

ReemK10 (Paper Pills) | 1025 comments Sorry, can't resist posting
this: The Morality of the Fables of La Fontaine

http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewconte...


ReemK10 (Paper Pills) | 1025 comments I found something that I'm having a hard time doing a copy and paste, so I will rewrite it:

Now, if there is an insecurity or anxiety associated with travel, it is that insecurity associated with the menace of irreparable loss. This loss can affect not only one's very life or sanity. Or one can simply lose one's way, since the possibility of there being no return is always implied in travel. Every voyage is potentially a voyage into exile, a voyage to the " end of the night." La Fontaine's famous fable " The Two Pigeons" provides an eloquent statement of this negative notion of travel. In this satire of the urge to travel, one of the two pigeons , "crazy enough to undertake/ a voyage to some faraway land," suffers one disaster after another in his journey until, " half dead and half limping," he decides to return home," from Travel as Metaphor

Just perfect for the ending of this book!


message 36: by Fionnuala (last edited Dec 24, 2013 07:01AM) (new) - added it

Fionnuala | 1142 comments I'm on page 407 - according to the Narrator, events and reactions can be clearly divided into BD or AD, before and after Dreyfus.

On the next page, he talks about how everyone is unaware of the young Mme de Cambremer's origins, and those who are aware have forgotten, ceux qui les avaient connues les avaient oubliées.
I think he has forgotten them himself - wasn't she originally introduced in the second volume when the grandmother called to see Mme de Villeparisis and this girl mended her torn skirt? I think she was described as a 'gamine', perhaps a relative, whom Jupien, who was then a 'giletier', had taken in as an apprentice. But now the Narrator refers to her as Jupien's daughter.
So here he gives us a very apt example of how time transforms the facts.


message 37: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "http://www.allposters.com/-sp/The-Two..."

Thank you, Reem, and Moreau is an apt painter to quote visually in this Proust group...!!.. FioFio will agree.

I will paste your image..




message 38: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Sorry, can't resist posting
this: The Morality of the Fables of La Fontaine

http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewconte..."


Reem, if you read the English wiki entry of the Fable (posted above) you will find out more about its Eastern (Persian) origin.


message 39: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
Fionnuala wrote: "I'm on page 407 - according to the Narrator, events and reactions can be clearly divided into BD or AD, before and after Dreyfus.

On the next page, he talks about how everyone is unaware of the yo..."


I did not remember her first appearance so clearly... but I do remember that she was first the niece, and not the daughter of Jupien...

Wll caught...You can travel time better than some of us....


message 40: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
And again on the "noms" and how metamorphosis either in the nature of the thing denoted or in the name itself.

.".Ce petit-là, oui il a connu tout ça, mais tout ça, c'est fini, ce sont des gens dont le nom même n'existe plus et qui d'ailleurs ne méritent pas de survivre". Et je me rendais compte malgré cette chose une que semble le monde, et où en effet les rapports sociaux arrivent à leur maximum de concentration et où tout communique, comme il y reste des provinces, ou du moins comme le Temps en fait qui changent de nom, qui ne sont plus compréhensibles pour ceux qui y arrivent seulement quand la configuration a changé. p. 426.

And this passage, a meditation on how even geographic places can change their name, and which follows the section in which the Duchesse is getting mixed up with the manner in which the Narrator has met M. de Bréauté, made me think of how Illiers itself, the village where Marcel Proust went as a child, has now adopted the fictional name of Combray and is now called:

Illiers-Combray.. and how the local authorities are working on calling Cabourg, Cabourg-Balbec


message 41: by Kalliope, Priestess of Proust (last edited Dec 24, 2013 08:38AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kalliope | 2929 comments Mod
The cough pills - pastilles contre la toux - Géraudel



And with humour..





Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments Kalliope wrote: "The La Berma episode, with her lonely dinner, is full of pathos... Talking of the metamorphosis that CeCe is seeing in the Duchesse, we see it in La Berma, who is becoming the tragic Phèdre.. with..."

Such an evocative scene. It emanated the truth that we die alone...and the eloquent mask of death seemed to foreshadow Marcel's. More of Proust's unblinking honesty.


Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments Eugene wrote: "...that hereditary need for spiritual nourishment which had brought about the social decline of Mme de Villeparisis... Ml p. 466

To revisit the Narrator's first salon, that of the "blue stocking" ..."


Eugene, do you recall which volume it was that the Narrator first entered Mme Villeparisis salon?

While everyone is forgetting and forgiving ALL in Time Regained. No one forgot Mme Villeparisis "transgressions". Is this a product of the Narrator's maturity, and as you say, wisdom? And/or the aftermath of a population that had lived through WWI...where the world of the aristocracy was permeable, shifting and crumbling? Or cyclical ever shifting views of the world depending upon where one is positioned?

Is Mme Villeparisis now living in posterity because Proust has written her "memoirs"...first writing her, second writing her into Oriane...just as he wrote Charles Haas to now never be forgotten?


message 44: by Ce Ce (last edited Dec 24, 2013 11:15AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments Kalliope wrote: "Ce Ce wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "... if the characters move across time, they also travel through their social strata.... But with Mme de Villeparisis, particularly in the Venice scenes, we were left...

Cycles"


Yes Kalliope, Cycles and elasticity. If I envision these 7 volumes I see circle after circle, veils...atmospheric, written and re-written from every perspective and time in life imaginable, transparent & clear...smoky & mysterious...at times opaque with a light spilled gloriously to illuminate in another time or place

Added: Ever shifting. I have been thinking of life stories recently. Two people who have lived side by side will tell different stories. Proust evokes this with his reincarnations and shifting tales of the same person. We see Mme Villeparisis then contemporaneously when the young narrator met her; we see her later in Venice; we see her posthumously and contemplate what her memoirs might be and then we see Oriane become her...


message 45: by Kate (new)

Kate Steer | 17 comments Yes! Thank you, Ce Ce. In this way, as in so many great books, Time is cyclical. E.G. Cien Anos de Soledad also Wuthering Heights. D'accord?
Have a good Christmas, all of you, o Happy Band of Proust Pilgrims .


Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "The Two Doves

Wright, Elizur (1804 - 1885).

1 Two doves once cherish'd for each other

2 The love that brother hath for brother.

3 But one, of scenes domestic tiring,

4 To see the fo..."


Thank you for the translation, Reem.


message 47: by Jocelyne (last edited Dec 24, 2013 11:31AM) (new)

Jocelyne Lebon | 745 comments Fionnuala wrote: "That this last section of Proust coincides with Christhmas ought to be a double pleasure but no! I'm caught up in real life obligations and no one understands my Proust obligations!!
Help - don't ..."


LOL! Same here!

I don't know why but I was under the impression that La Berma already died in a previous volume. Does anyone remember anything about it?

@Kall, the parallel with the two birds previously mentioned is well-spotted. I had not thought of it.


message 48: by Eugene (last edited Dec 24, 2013 02:56PM) (new)

Eugene | 479 comments Ce Ce wrote: ...do you recall which volume it was that the Narrator first entered Mme Villeparisis salon?

Volume 3. There Proust gives reasons why her salon was "second rate" (the same ones I listed) and says that her salon will be considered more brilliant than others because she recorded it (made art of it) by writing her memoirs...the other salons that surpassed hers, those not memorialized, would be forgotten.

Ce Ce again: While everyone is forgetting and forgiving ALL in Time Regained. No one forgot Mme Villeparisis "transgressions".

Yes, according to Proust in Volume 3 but I added "in their lifetimes".

Also, in a later volume, Proust says a reason Haas is remembered is for Proust's fictional re-creation of him in Swann.

If you recall in Volume 3 Oriane as a young woman idolized Mme de Villeparisis.


Ce Ce (CeCeBe) | 626 comments Eugene wrote: "Ce Ce wrote: ...do you recall which volume it was that the Narrator first entered Mme Villeparisis salon?

Volume 3. There Proust gives reasons why her salon was "second rate" (the same ones I list..."


Thank you Eugene...I have to go back and review. I remember...but not all the nuances. No wonder Proust is studied for lifetimes.

Yes, I should have said Haas as Swann...and now we know the narrator credits him with the direction of his life and work as a writer.

Merry Christmas to one and all...back after the holiday.


ReemK10 (Paper Pills) | 1025 comments I keep posting in the wrong place. This belongs in this week's thread:

... for whom the trifling physical exertion of looking over their shoulder was a welcome interruption to the torture of listening "religiously to the Kreutzer Sonata. (MKE 496)

The Violin Sonata No. 9 of Ludwig van Beethoven, commonly known as the Kreutzer Sonata, was published as Beethoven's Opus 47. It is known for its demanding violin part, unusual length (a typical performance lasts slightly less than 40 minutes), and emotional scope — while the first movement is predominantly furious, the second is meditative and the third joyous and exuberant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mixnMz...


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