Through Sunday, 27 Jan.: Swann's Way

[Aloha]

Kalliope wrote: "I do not think anyone is denying the use of imagery and analogies from medieval architecture, and least of all me (I have posted several comments on this).

I think that what Nick is questioning,..."

We'll have to read on to find out!

[Kalliope]

Interesting synaesthesia in the Narrator finding that the sylllables "Antes" from the name Guermantes, have an orange color.

As far as I have noticed, it is the first time orange appears in his "palette".

[Aloha]

Kalliope, there's a passage before that about the gardener's daughter overturning an orange tree in its tub, but I don't think it's significant.

I do think the passage you pointed out regarding "Antes" is significant in that "orangeade" has a special symbolism later on. This, I think, is also a symbol of things moving along the Guermantes way with the introduction of Swann and his passion.

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: "Kalliope, there's a passage before that about the gardener's daughter overturning an orange tree in its tub, but I don't think it's significant.

I do think the passage you pointed out regarding "..."

Yes, the fact that he has refrained from using orange until now, made me think that he has reserved it, but I have not reached that part yet.

I also liked the fact that the flowers are different in the two côtés, the Swann and the Guermantes, which makes sense since the topography is different.

[Aloha]

I don't know about the LD translation, but the "antes" and "orange" symbolism would be lost to the ML readers due to the translation.

ML:
...invariably wrapped in the mystery of the Merovingian age and bathed, as in a sunset, in the amber light which glowed from the resounding syllable “antes.”...

French:
...enfin toujours enveloppés du mystère des temps mérovingiens et baignant comme dans un coucher de soleil dans la lumière orangée qui émane de cette syllabe : « antes »....

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: "I don't know about the LD translation, but the "antes" and "orange" symbolism would be lost to the ML readers due to the translation.

ML:
...invariably wrapped in the mystery of the Merovingian ag..."

I had meant orange the color, not the fruit, which he may have reserved for this particular evocative use.

[Aloha]

Kalliope wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I don't know about the LD translation, but the "antes" and "orange" symbolism would be lost to the ML readers due to the translation.

ML:
...invariably wrapped in the mystery of the ..."

Yes. It's funny that the lumiére orangée was translated to amber light.

[Aloha]

Proustitute wrote: "Here's the Davis translation of that line:

"... but always wrapped in the mystery of Merovingian times and bathing as though in a sunset in the orange light emanating from the syllable antes." (17..."

I will have to read the LD translation now!

[knig]

Going back to the sadism etude: what am I missing? Surely it is Mlle V's friend who is the sadist and the daughter the masochist, not the other way around, despite P's countenance to the reverse?

The colours: I am following these as well, but in so far as I have not yet spotted orange being only at the banks of the Vivonne, it is only because I surmise we are on a seasonal pilgramage: Proust states his family starts their visits at Combray at Easter: therefore, its not surprising that the asparagus, hawthorns even buttercups would not have an 'orange' summery/autumn tint. I am waiting for that colourto manifest as, presumably, the seasons go on.

[knig]

Re thoughts on cathedral: I am but guided by P's own words, where he makes a direct comparison between C and Bellini's Procession at St Marks Square (which is obviously a cathedral)

[Aloha]

knig wrote: "Going back to the sadism etude: what am I missing? Surely it is Mlle V's friend who is the sadist and the daughter the masochist, not the other way around, despite P's countenance to the reverse?

..."

It is the daughter's further stomping on the memory of the father's love for her, of all she has made him suffer while he was alive. The daughter was the sadistic one because she had the power to cause suffering in the father while he was alive.

In my search of the French version, besides "oranger" the fruit in the gardener's daughter scene, the first encounter was in the passage Kalliope mentioned of the orange (color) light.

[Kalliope]

Comme les rives étaient à cet endroit très boisées, les grandes ombres des arbres donnaient à l'eau un fond qui était habituellement d'un vert sombre mais que parfois, quand nous rentrions par certains soirs rassérénés d'après-midi orageux, j'ai vu d'un bleu clair et cru, tirant sur le violet, d'apparence cloisonnée et de goût japonais. Çà et là, à la surface, rougissait comme une fraise une fleur de nymphéa au coeur écarlate, blanc sur les bords.

[Aloha]

Kalliope wrote: "Comme les rives étaient à cet endroit très boisées, les grandes ombres des arbres donnaient à l'eau un fond qui était habituellement d'un vert sombre mais que parfois, quand nous rentrions par cert..."

Thank you, Kalliope! I love Monet's Water Lilies.

Here is the ML translation:

As the banks hereabouts were thickly wooded, the heavy shade of the trees gave the water a background which was ordinarily dark green, although sometimes, when we were coming home on a calm evening after a stormy afternoon, I have seen in its depths a clear, crude blue verging on violet, suggesting a floor of Japanese cloisonné. Here and there on the surface, blushing like a strawberry, floated a water-lily flower with a scarlet centre and white edges.

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: "In my search of the French version, besides "oranger" the fruit in the gardener's daughter scene..."

Oranger is the tree, not the fruit.

The orange light emanates from language itself (the syllable). This is a clear synesthetic sample.

[Aloha]

LD translation:
“Because the banks were heavily wooded here, the trees’ great shadows gave the water a depth that was usually dark green although sometimes, when we came home on an evening that was calm again after a stormy afternoon, I saw that it was a light, raw blue verging on violet, cloisonné in appearance and Japanese in style. Here and there on the surface, the flower of a water lily blushed like a strawberry, with a scarlet heart, white on its edges.”

[Aloha]

Kalliope wrote: "Aloha wrote: "In my search of the French version, besides "oranger" the fruit in the gardener's daughter scene..."

Oranger is the tree, not the fruit.

The orange light emanates from language itse..."

I thought it was the tree, but when you said "fruit" a few posts back, I thought you meant to correct me. :o)

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: "LD translation:
“Because the banks were heavily wooded here, the trees’ great shadows gave the water a depth that was usually dark green although sometimes, when we came home on an evening that was..."

LD is more sensitive to hues... the raw blue is so much more appropriate than the crude blue.

Thank you Aloha, for putting the translations..

P's text really does read like a description of Monet's painting.

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Aloha wrote: "In my search of the French version, besides "oranger" the fruit in the gardener's daughter scene..."

Oranger is the tree, not the fruit.

The orange light emanates f..."

Sorry, I meant that only the color (not the fruit) had been mentioned and in a context completely separated from the fruit after which it is named, and from the tree... Sorry!.

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

"What a pretty Beauvais," said Swann before he sat down, trying to be pleasant. "Oh I'm so glad you appreciate my couch, " answered Mme. Verdurin. (LD 215)

I had to look up to see her salon furniture. I imagine they may look something like this although her chairs sound more ornate.

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/fu...


http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/Zo...

http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/fu...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bel...

[Aloha]

Thanks for the links, Reem. Now we can imagine what the place looked like as the little phrase is played.

[Kalliope]

Wonderful illuminated moment in which Proust can evoke the magic that the Narrator feels when he succeeds in decoding the inner being and beauty of the two bell-towers in Martinville and, in his turn, render it in his writing, in his awakening art.

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: "Wonderful illuminated moment in which Proust can evoke the magic that the Narrator feels when he succeeds in decoding the inner being and beauty of the two bell-towers in Martinville and, in his tu..."

This is perhaps a case where he deliberately confuses the author/Narrator situation. This passage, according to the notes in my edition, GF Flammarion was published in "Le Figaro du 19 novembre 1907, 'Impressions de route en automobile' repris dans 'Pastiches et Mélanges' sous le titre de 'Journées en automobiles'". So, if I understand correctly, it had been published twice before he used it as an example of the Narrator's awakening art in 'A La Recherche'.

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Wonderful illuminated moment in which Proust can evoke the magic that the Narrator feels when he succeeds in decoding the inner being and beauty of the two bell-towers in Martinvil..."

Very interesting comment and piece of information...

I have the paperback edition, with no notes.. I should invest in a better edition, but I am writing notes on the margins without fear, because it is a cheap one.

[Kalliope]

Another wonderful passage is the trapped waterlily. All its efforts at liberating itself reinforce its captivity.

[Fionnuala]

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: ""What a pretty Beauvais," said Swann before he sat down, trying to be pleasant. "Oh I'm so glad you appreciate my couch, " answered Mme. Verdurin. (LD 215)

I had to look up to see her salon furnit..."

Apparently, the factory at Beauvais which made the cloth with which Mme Vedurin's furniture was covered, was originally directed by two of the most famous French artists of the 18th century, Oudry and Boucher, who had the status of Painter to the King. They would have been responsible for the original drawings which formed the model for the pattern of the cloth. Oudry, in particular was inspired by scenes from La Fontaine, and since in the case of Mme Verdurin's furniture, the fable 'L'Ours et l'Amateur de Jardins' was the subject, we can presume that it came from an original Oudry drawing. Interesting that Proust chose this subject, The Bear and the Garden Lover. I'm wondering who the Bear is.
When Odette refers to La Fontaine earlier in this section, comparing herself to The frog before the Athenian Court, it turns out that Proust made that fable up, or maybe Odette did!

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: ""What a pretty Beauvais," said Swann before he sat down, trying to be pleasant. "Oh I'm so glad you appreciate my couch, " answered Mme. Verdurin. (LD 215)

I had to l..."

I have not reached that section yet.. !! thanks for the information...!!

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: "Another wonderful passage is the trapped waterlily. All its efforts at liberating itself reinforce its captivity."

There are so many beautiful passages in the last section of Combray that the early sections of 'Un Amour de Swann' are like a brutal shock to our senses. No more rhapsodies on waterlilies, just the banal machinations of petty minded people...but they are funny.

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Another wonderful passage is the trapped waterlily. All its efforts at liberating itself reinforce its captivity."

There are so many beautiful passages in the last section of Com..."

I agree..!!

My pattern of reading now is to read fast the section and map it out, and then go back and read it very slowly with note taking.

So, some details such as the upholstery that you mentioned I still need to pay attention to, but I felt the same overall shock in the change of tone when starting Un amour de Swann, which made me rush through the rest of the section so that I could go back to beautiful Combray...!!

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Another wonderful passage is the trapped waterlily. All its efforts at liberating itself reinforce its captivity."

There are so many beautiful passages in the l..."

When you do get to the upholstery, here's a link to the fable:
http://www.jdlf.com/lesfables/livrevi...

Here are a few lines I wondered about:
"Non loin de là certain vieillard
S'ennuyait aussi de sa part.
Il aimait les jardins, était Prêtre de Flore,
Il l'était de Pomone encore :
Ces deux emplois sont beaux : Mais je voudrais parmi
Quelque doux et discret ami."

The end is also enigmatic:
"Rien n'est si dangereux qu'un ignorant ami ;
Mieux vaudrait un sage ennemi."

Here's a link to the English version of the fable by Aesop which La Fontaine rewrote:
http://www.litscape.com/author/Aesop/...

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Another wonderful passage is the trapped waterlily. All its efforts at liberating itself reinforce its captivity."

There are so many beautiful ..."

Will revisit the Fable when I read the section, but on Pomone and the opera the wiki has (surprisingly the English or Spanish wiki pages have more info than the French).

The importance of gardens...!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomone_(...

[Fionnuala]

Thanks for that, Kal - I seem to remember from art history lectures a famous painting too, of Pomone by one of the Carrachis, I think..can't find it right now.

What really intrigued me about this section is the transition from first person narrative to third and how stealthily Proust does that. He has the Narrator talking about mining the marble of his memory for precious seams - a reference I think to Ruskin's 'Stones of Venice', and then suddenly he is telling us that he is about to draw on another person's memory, as if people can do that every day in ordinary life (and not only with magic wands and a pensieve in Harry Potter!).

And then he turns Swann's memories into a third person omniscient narrative so that not only do we know what is going on in Swann's head but also what is in all of the other characters' heads too, at least most of the time. Odette's thoughts are not explained, we have to read her from her words and her actions, which is interesting. It is as if he wants to introduce suspense here but at the same time, the Narrator has already given us the end of this story in Combray. But perhaps he wants to let us figure out how that end comes about and have us wonder about Odette's motives, can she be targeting Swann to get to Charlus?

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Thanks for that, Kal - I seem to remember from art history lectures a famous painting too, of Pomone by one of the Carrachis, I think..can't find it right now.

What really intrigued me about this ..."

There is this one by Boucher, the artist in L'amour de Swann:



But this one is rather nice:



I cannot find one by Carracci.

Thank you for the comment on the change of persona in the narration. Will pay attention to it.

[Aloha]

I am loving all these art and culture posts. Thank you.

[Nick]

I think the Swann we have seen in Combray still has room for development, or rather: his backstory is being told but we will see him again.

In this section we start to see about Proust's ideas on love, for one thing, and about how we see others.

[Fionnuala]

Nick wrote: "I think the Swann we have seen in Combray still has room for development, or rather: his backstory is being told but we will see him again."

I'm glad to hear that Swann's situation in Combray, i.e. married but semi-estranged from his wife, is not the end of his story. He is such a fine character even if he does go through mistresses at a crazy rate. However he does write them nice letters when he breaks off with them so we excuse him a little - were letters better than texts?

I keep seeing parallels between this work and Ulysses, and Swann is one of the strongest links: he and Leoplold Bloom are quite alike, both Jewish, mad about women but married to women who don't love them. They also share a tendancy towards lofty thoughts about humanity in general, and both love art and music. Interesting...

[Nick]

I REALLY like that idea! Poldy is a true hero, to my mind. One of my favourite quotes is from Michael Chabon, about Ulysses:

In [Bloom's] having managed to sustain his curiosity about the people and the world around him after thirty-eight years of familiarity and routine that ought to have dulled and dampened it; and above all in the abiding capacity for empathy, for moral imagination, that is the fruit of an observant curiosity like Bloom’s, I found, as if codified, a personal definition of heroism.

Ulysses struck me, most of all, as a book of life; every sentence, even those that laid bare the doubt, despair, shame, or vanity of its characters, seemed to have been calibrated to assert, in keeping with the project of the work as a whole, the singularity and worth of even the most humdrum and throwaway of human days." ~ Michael Chabon"

People often forget that human side, seeing Ulysses only as a display of literary fireworks and linguistic fun.

Swann is a little bit of a cad (one critic calls his behaviour boorish...) in those early days, but in that class of men, it was very common behaviour, I am quite sure.

[Fionnuala]

Nick wrote: "I REALLY like that idea! Poldy is a true hero, to my mind. One of my favourite quotes is from Michael Chabon, about Ulysses:

In [Bloom's] having managed to sustain his curiosity about the people ...
Swann is a little bit of a cad (one critic calls his behaviour boorish...) in those early days, but in that class of men, it was very common behaviour, I am quite sure.

Yes, even the Narrator says about Swann, "...il y avait en lui...une certaine muflerie..." which could translate as boorishess.

I loved that Chabon quote about Bloom - thanks for finding it. It says what I tried to say in my review of Ulysses, but much more eloquently!

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Fionnuala wrote: "and since in the case of Mme Verdurin's furniture, the fable 'L'Ours et l'Amateur de Jardins' was the subject, we can presume that it came from an original Oudry drawing. Interesting that Proust chose this subject, The Bear and the Garden Lover"

Thanks Fionmiala for the information and providing us with the fable. I looked it up and learned that
"The Bear and the Gardener is a fable of eastern origin that warns against making foolish friendships." Perhaps this had to do with Mme Verdurin pointing out her chairs to Swann as she sent him to sit next to Odette. This also strikes me as being very funny having this particular Beauvais in a pretentious salon like the Verdurins.

I could only find the tapestry design in black and white which may be the actual colors.

http://environnement.ecole.free.fr/2b...

[Kalliope]

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "and since in the case of Mme Verdurin's furniture, the fable 'L'Ours et l'Amateur de Jardins' was the subject, we can presume that it came from an original Oudry drawing. Interest..."

Thank you for the illustration. Not easy to find..!!

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "and since in the case of Mme Verdurin's furniture, the fable 'L'Ours et l'Amateur de Jardins' was the subject, we can presume that it came from an or..."

I wanted to find it in color, because I find it hard to believe that it would be in black and white.

[Fionnuala]

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "I wanted to find it in color, because I find it hard to believe that it would be in black and white. ."
Thanks for finding this, Reem.
I think it is an engraving, perhaps used to illustrate a whole series of books. Engravings were often reproduced in black ink to save on printing costs.
The original drawing, or cartoon, from which the tappissier worked would have been in colour, I think.

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "I wanted to find it in color, because I find it hard to believe that it would be in black and white. ."
Thanks for finding this, Reem.
I think it is an engraving, perh..."

This makes a lot of sense, and it looks as if a book was prepared with the engraved version of the tapestries, accompanying the actual fables by La Fontaine. I found this and our Bear is in Book 8.

http://www.lafontaine.net/illustratio...

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: "This makes a lot of sense, and it looks as if a book was prepared with the engraved version of the tapestries, accompanying the actual fables by La Fontaine. I found this and our Bear is in Book 8."

Super sleuth!

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This makes a lot of sense, and it looks as if a book was prepared with the engraved version of the tapestries, accompanying the actual fables by La Fontaine. I found this and our B..."

I failed, but I found these Oudry paintings which give us a general idea of the colors he used.
http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/Jean-B...

[Fionnuala]

ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This makes a lot of sense, and it looks as if a book was prepared with the engraved version of the tapestries, accompanying the actual fables by La Fontaine. I fo..."

Thanks for that, Reem. He was quite prolific.

[Kalliope]

Jaye wrote: "I recently read an overview of ISOLT in Modernism: The Lure of Heresy from Baudelaire to Beckett and Beyond. Besides a lovely description of how Virginia Woolf found Proust's work excited her (in t..."

Jaye,

Nice to see you contributing to the group.

I would ask you, though, to put spoiler alerts (view spoiler)[like this one (hide spoiler)]in the above comment. Many in the group have not read La recherche and the code of the group is that the development or the ending/conclusion of the work is not to be revealed.

Those who are reading the work again are refraining in the weekly discussions to address issues that involve the whole work.

Thank you.

[Nick]

I think Proust wrote to express mysteries (and their resolution,) having already understood them (in his own way.) Or rather, he wrote to thoroughly explore them in great detail. So, social mores, personal schemes of self justification, the behaviour of social groups, the depths of human "love". All these he wrote about to tell others his thoughts. In the exploration he probably came to refine some opinions he held, or came upon and explored other mysteries.

[Aloha]

Jaye wrote: "I recently read an overview of ISOLT in Modernism: The Lure of Heresy from Baudelaire to Beckett and Beyond. Besides a lovely description of how Virginia Woolf found Proust's work excited her (in t..."

I'm a first time reader, but based on the line you referenced "...I had finished...", it seems to be attached more to the narrator in his discovery. I think Proust wrote ISOLT from the point of view of a mature writer who is looking back at the Narrator (inspired by his own life). Proust would have already resolved how he felt about his "mystical" experiences.

[Fionnuala]

Nick wrote: "...So, social mores, personal schemes of self justification, the behaviour of social groups, the depths of human "love". All these he wrote about to tell others his thoughts...."

Thanks, Nick. That helps to put the Verdurin couple and their entourage in some sort of meaningful context. Otherwise, their role in the narrative is hard to figure out. Elizabeth pointed out in another thread that they serve to draw attention to the different strata of society but while they do that certainly, it is still hard to understand why they have to be such caricatures....

[Kris]

Fionnuala, I agree with you that Nick's explanation does but the Verdurins into context. They are presented far more as caricatures than other characters earlier in the volume, but Proust has consistently been interested in the social masks people wear, the social games they play. I'll be interested to see if the Narrator changes his presentation of them later in Swann's Way.