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The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle, #2)
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message 1: by Wredd (new)

Wredd | 4 comments Ok, so I stumbled onto this theory while looking over the second book and this seemed as good a place as any to post it. I apologize ahead of time for the massive text wall. For those who don't want to have to read the whole thing to get the gist of the theory here it is.

1. Tehlu is a real person.
2. Encanis is Haliax/Lanre
3. The entire Tehlin religion was created by the Amyr as a warning system to help track/catch/kill the Chandrian.

Now, reasonings in order, and sorry I'll try not to wander.
1. Tehlu is a real person.
This one is pretty straightforward. We assume that the stories Skarpi tells are literal, and there isnt any real reason why we shouldn't considering that many of the names and facts are real. (aka "The Creation War", the city names and not just Myr Tariniel but also Murella which is validated by Felurian, and Lanre himself being real) If we accept that then in the second story told by Skarpi, the one that gets interrupted, he names Tehlu as one those who stands before Aleph to be angel-fied or w/e. There is also a list of others but most important is the last two Ordal and Andan.
2. Encanis is Haliax/Lanre
Also straightforward in my mind. Encanis is described as having a shadow obscuring his face (Haliax is "shadow-hamed"). Also, when Tehlu is chasing Encanis, in the story told by Trapis, he chases him for six days after destroying the "great city." I interpret that as Myr Tariniel which is always described as the "one city" separate from the other six. Then Encanis proceeds to be chased for six days and he destroys six more cities, mirroring the other six great cities from the War. On the seventh day Tehlu catches him preventing the destruction of the seventh city, once again, mirroring the seventh city that wasn't destroyed in the War. As a side note, this is what makes me think Tehlu was actually the seventh individual mentioned by the Adem, who did not forsake the "Lethani" and his city, which would make Tehlu the "savior" of that particular city. Anyway, Encanis is not only described similarly to Haliax, but he also, through allegory, mirrors the actions taken by Haliax/Lanre during the war.
3. The entire Tehlin religion was created by the Amyr as a warning system to help track/catch/kill the Chandrian.
LOL, and this is where it gets complicated. OK, so this is based on the whole "powerful stuff knows when its name gets used" concept. The Chandrian know when their names get used so why wouldn't that work similarly for other people/entities? That got me looking and Tehlu's name gets invoked a whole lot throughout the books. However, there is one specific time where his name gets invoked in a rather unique fashion and a unique set of circumstances followed. That is when Marten starts praying/chanting when he gets so scared during the bandit fight. He has seen what he believes is a demon, and has seen Kvothe "meddling with dark powers best left alone." Point is mofo be skerred. He chants this very specific religious litany, which Rothfuss goes to great lengths to emphasize through paragraph structure I might add, and while he is chanting Kvothe points out that the demon (aka Cinder) "he can hear you." Then Marten ends this litany "In Ordal's name/In Andan's name" which are the two other names mentioned from Skarpi's story. SO......hmm to that right?
Next come two individual times where we learn that the Tehlin religion is rather specific when you should invoke Tehlu's name. The first is in the first book when Kvothe first runs into that street gang upon entering Tarbean. One of the boys says Tehlu's name "in vain" LOL and one of the other boys says, as if quoting from a book," Do not call on Tehlu except in greatest need, for Tehlu judges every thought and deed." The second is from the very story of Tehlu and Encanis. This is important because that means that it is a part of the Tehlin doctrine, since that story is the one told by Tehlin priests. In the story Tehlu himself says," And if I am needed and called in the PROPER WAYS then I will come again to judge and punish." Btw, "proper ways" is important because it implies there is a formula or litany(wink wink) that one must use to summon Tehlu's help.
So, anyway I forgot to mention that after Marten says his litany, and Cinder starts getting all antsy, which Kvothe describes as "familiar"(now when would he have seen Cinder become suddenly attentive of the sky and then immediately flee the area? Thats a joke btw....its when his parents are killed) Cinder jumps into his tent and "disappears." Then BOOM the whole place goes up from the lighting(s) strike. Kvothe admits that the lighting is unexplainable and when you read about the destruction after the battle, it seems a little excessive for just a lighting strike, even 6 at once. I think it wasn't Kvothe at all but Tehlu and the other angels showing up and nuking the area in an attempt to get Cinder.
So, whats the point? I think the Amyr and or Tehlu set up the Tehlin religion to create a system where mortals would invoke Tehlu's name in a specific fashion whenever they encountered a general set of circumstances(aka encounters with "demons" which is the main antagonist for the religion. Obviously, when someone meets up with any Chandrian, but especially Haliax/Lanre since any Tehlin follower will immediately assume its Encanis due to the description factor, they will assume "demon" and start chanting and bringing down the wrath of Tehlu and his fellow Amyr.)
Once again, sorry for the text wall. What do you guys think?


Amit Bahri | 4 comments Wredd,

To your points:
1. I agree with you Tehlu is a real person.
2. I also made that connection too that Encanis= Haliax= Lanre = Alaxel (Admen name for the leader of the Chandrain)
3. Very Interesting theory... I never thought the religion could be fake and I do like some of your points. Especially the "proper" type of prayer could bring them to closer to those who need them.

I have been trying to piece together another theory:
We have been given a role call for the Chandrain by the Adem along with their attributes. And Slowly we have identified some of the members such as Alaxel= Haliax and Ferule = Cinder.

Similarly in Skarpi's second story we were given the name of the original Amyr including Tehlu. If we were to speculate some characters we have meet in both books might be from the original Amyr: Skarpi (could be a namer)and Tappis (could also be a namer) might be a lot more then they appear. I have a idea that Auri and Elodin are not entirely who we think they are also.

I could be way off but without Book 3 theories are all I have.


message 3: by Wredd (new)

Wredd | 4 comments Yea, I have also speculated on Skarpi. The main area that kind of struck me was in the first book when Skarpi has just been interrupted during his second story by the authorities. Skarpi says to one of the priests, "Oh come now, Erlus, Tehlu hates you even more than the rest of the world does, which is quite a bit."

At first I though Skarpi was only referring to Tehlu in that way as a sort of metaphor to point out that this priest Erlus was a corrupt individual and that if Tehlu could see how he was perverting his station he would despise him. Or something like that lol.

But then I looked at that passage with the mentality that Tehlu was a real person, and I it made me think, "Gee, the reference to Tehlu there seems awfully personal." Not really metaphorical at all. More like, if Skarpi knows that Tehlu is real, and he feels confident to speak on Tehlu's feelings in such a manner, then what if Skarpi KNOWS Tehlu. Like, knows him personally. That would mean Skarpi would have to be an Amyr, at least one of the human Amyr.

Which would explain why, A) He knows what happened back during the war, and B) Why he feels no concern over saying Lanre's name so much.


Ancapaillmor | 76 comments Bloody hell be careful what you say, next thing you know they'll be burning embassies in vintas and tarbean.


message 5: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I've had questions about Skarpi as well. Notice in that scene you mentioned also, that Skarpi calls Kvothe by name, when Kvothe has never given his name to Skarpi.

Goes to show that Skarpi may just KNOW some things. For what reason? Thats pretty unclear. We know that Skarpi also sent Chronicler to find Kote after hearing a rumor, which was spread by Bast on purpose.
I think their is a distinct possiblity that Kvothe has perked the interest of more than one "underground" group of people in the Four Corners World and is thus under watch by quite possibly more than one faction.
One of which includes Skarpi.

As far as Trappis, I know Pat has mentioned in an interview before, since someone caught it in the books and asked, that he is part of an offbranch of the Tehlin church, they follow the same teachings but practice them differently, something a long those lines.

Skarpi may be of the same sect has Trappis, or he may be a completely different faction, its really hard to say. I'd hate to lump him in with the Amyr simply because the Amyr seem pretty evil in my opinion. I think the Amyr and the Chandrian are pretty even when it comes to ethical boundries and that really they are in more of a power struggle than anything.

But then again..I think a lot of weird shit. I just try to and think outside the box when I read these novels because no writer likes to stick with what would be the obvious answer. (thats just too boring)


message 6: by Rachel (last edited Oct 12, 2012 03:47PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Rachel (rachelsessum) | 113 comments So I just finished reading The Wise Man's Fear (for the 3rd time this year) and why don't we try this one on for size.

While out hunting the highway men for the Maer, Hespe told the story of "Jax", who stole the moon. When Kvothe was with Felurian she confirmed that the story was true and that it was the reason for the moon's phases. She also would not speak his name, even though he was "shut beyond the doors of stone." But when Bast interrupted the story he referred to him not as "Jax" but "Iax". When Nell brought Kvothe the painting of what was on one side of the pot, it was supposed to show the "signs" of the Chandrian. Over Haliax was three phases of the moon.

Encanis = Lanre = Jax = Iax = Haliax.

Also, on a side note, Jax put the name of the moon in an iron box small enough to close his hand around. I think that the name of the moon is in a box inside of the box that Lady Lackless held. When Kvothe held the Loeclos box trying to figure out how to open it, he felt something move inside. He said it was "something smaller than a salt box, something metal, by the way it shifts when I tilt it." He then modified that to stone or glass because of the weight. But what if it was a little extra heavy because it was holding the name of the moon?

With respect to the Amyr, the Cthaeh tree told Kvothe that "...the Maer, however, is quite the extraordinary man. He's already come close to them, though he doesn't realize it. Stick by the Maer and he will lead you to their door." I think it is possible that the Loeclos family were perhaps originally Amyr, and they were guarding the box. However, after 3,000 years perhaps the history was lost because as Meulan pointed out, no one would ever write down anything about the Loeclos Box.

Oh, and I think that Haliax is looking for it.

Okay, that is it. Every time I read this book I discover something new. This is my most recent theory.


message 7: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Its a pretty common theory actually that the box holds the name of the moon and a lot of people like the idea that Encanis - Lanre - Haliax are the same.

Though I must point out that Jax/Iax and Haliax/Lanre cant be the same. Iax is one of the Shapers who built the entire fae, he is mentioned as being one of the only people with power close to Selitos in the beginning of NoTW. It's mentioned in the story where Lanre becomes Haliax. J's and I's are traditionally very interchangable and often mixed up so the change from Jax to Iax is pretty feasible. Especially over the vast amount of time.

However a lot of people have put forth that maybe Haliax is somehow a combo of Iax and Lanre in the same body or that Iax took over Lanre's body. Which I guess no one can really say didnt happen. It's a possibility. But the original Jax/Iax who stole the moon was not Lanre/Haliax at that time, he was his own person and he was pretty much the main antagonist of the Creation War that Lanre fought and died in.

Though I do agree that the Lackless' could be a part of the Amyr, they seem the likely sort and are obviously guarding something with magic doors and puzzle boxes. I'm totally sold its the moons name inside the Lackless box, but it is the best theory out their. Just throws me off everytime.

In a box no lids or locks, Lackless keeps her husbands rocks? Wtf? Makes no sense....ugh.

Anyway, I think if you take out the Iax/Jax bit its a strong theory. Also fits better with the vase. 3 phases, 3 names. Though I do really like the theory that Lanre is only evil because he put on cursed armor. Thats a theory around these parts as well that I thought it was extremely original and interesting. Good back up too.


Rachel (rachelsessum) | 113 comments Skarpi does call the story of Lanre "The Creation Wars." Which made me think that Lanre was a shaper.

You also remember how Elodin freaked out when Kvothe asked him what he would think of someone who kept changing their name? Perhaps Haliax has changed his true name and in doing so warped his true self.


message 9: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I do think that its likely something along those lines, changing his true name, I mean.

But I also sometimes think maybe Haliax isnt all that bad overall, sort of just went bad overtime, or did some bad stuff in attempts to reach a certain goal.

(What that is...hard to say) but I almost think that is where Kvothe's story is leading as well and that the two characters might be set up to mimic eachother. Since obviously Kvothe changes his true name and ends up with a warped version of his former self.


message 10: by Chris, Master Artificer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Isn't the OP's post obvious? Skarpi states that Tehlu was one of the winged Amyr. The rest just falls into place.


Rachel (rachelsessum) | 113 comments Kvothe didn't change his true name, he changed his "calling name". Elodin differentiates very clearly between the two. Your true name is who you are, down to the marrow of your bones. Your calling name, while still having power (as we can see from Kvothe withering away after changing to Kote), is only what the world calls you.


message 12: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
@ Rachel: In all technicality you are correct. So I'll rephrase.

Kvothe may have changed his true name and ended up with a warped version of himself similar to that of Haliax/Lanre.

:)


message 13: by Wredd (new)

Wredd | 4 comments Chris wrote: "Isn't the OP's post obvious? Skarpi states that Tehlu was one of the winged Amyr. The rest just falls into place."

Thats why I started both that section and the next with "This is pretty straightforward." Nothing I mention in either of those is anything other than plainly stated in the books. I mention them only as a foundation for the final section which is really where my argument lies.
The fact that you feel like it just "falls into place" seems to me that my logical progression was sound and that I presented the information well. I wasn't saying "Holy Crap guys, I think Tehlu just might, wait for it, be a real person!" I only mention that stuff for those who might not have caught it whilst reading it, so they would have a platform from which to understand my argument "The Tehlin religion is fake."


Aditya Prakash (reizo) | 10 comments I have just one question! Can names be merged? If I put Iax and Lanre's names together, to I get Haliax, who is corrupted for names are not meant to be toyed with so?

Seeing as Lanre was no namer, how did he fool Selitos unless he 1)took his wife's name, 2)took Iax's name (which would also end the war, corrupting both of them).
or maybe he unlocked his mind by somehow harvesting their powers?


message 15: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I don't think anyone can answer that. It's not impossible from what I have read and remember.

We just don't know enough about the rules of naming to really say if that is possible or not.
There is also the possibility that Lanre was shaped into Haliax, thus making him different.

Would make sense for that to have been done by Iax, the most powerful known Shaper in the series, and coincidentally, named within the name Haliax.


That would be my best unsupported and crackpot guess.


Desiree | 39 comments Wredd wrote: "Ok, so I stumbled onto this theory while looking over the second book and this seemed as good a place as any to post it. I apologize ahead of time for the massive text wall. For those who don't wan..."

Great points. A part of me also wants to believe Skarpi *is* Tehlu. I liked him. :p


message 17: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
@Desiree

Holy Shit

Mind=Blown

I love that idea and SO hope it is correct that would greatly amuse me.


Arliden420 | 2 comments auri is of the fae.... .. i think she went there to protect kvothe or keep an eye on him......


message 19: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
I don't think their is anything to directly dispute the claim she is of Fae. The Possibility is wide open for sure.

But she definitely was present at the University before Kvothe, Elodin says he's been trying to get close to her "for years"

That doesn't rule out the possibility of her waiting for Kvothe though and possibly suspecting he is the person she was waiting for. (Though that also has no support LOL)


message 20: by Ashley (new)

Ashley Fox | 72 comments Urgh I do hope that she is not waiting for K. Talk about undermining autonomy and merely being a function for the protag!


message 21: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
This is true.
I'm not keen on that idea myself since her character is so awesome.

I can't recall now but was she an add in not from the original manuscript? I'm loosing track of those. Probably isn't even important. LOL.


message 22: by Chris, Master Artificer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris (chris300) | 387 comments Mod
Yeah, she was an add-in. As was Devi. I seriously like Devi's character too so glad he decided to do some re-writes!

I wouldn't like it if Auri was just another plot device for K. I mean, obviously she is, but I like the idea that she has secrets and a life when we're not focused on K.


message 23: by Amber, Master Sympathist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1471 comments Mod
Yes, I agree with that completely. I think, most likely she was originally created as a plot device, same with Bast, but the character took on a life of it's own.

Hell, Bast is going to get his own novella sized piece of writing from what I hear, wouldn't surprise me if something came of Auri in that fashion as well.


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