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Women & Men Chapter Discussions > 0478 Charity (or) CHARITY

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message 1: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (last edited Nov 03, 2012 09:24AM) (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Discuss.

Originally published in Mississippi Review 7.2 (Spring 1978).

The title in the 1st edition, 1st printing is "CHARITY"; 1st edition, 2nd printing is "Charity." What is it in the Dalkey? The ePub book is apparently made from the 1st/1st.


message 2: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Jonathan wrote: "How do we classify this chapter? It is an ALL CAP titled chapter and yet it is not a BREATHER."

The wikipedia article indicates three styles of chapter:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_an...

1) The chapters with all lowercase titles are, in essence, independent short stories about characters in the novel, but they can be read and appreciated separately from the rest of the novel.

2) BREATHERS

3) Sections in all-caps that do not include the word "BREATHER" and those with titles in normal title-case are mostly straightforward narrations, but they are intricately plotted and intimately related to the more difficult portions.

Although I'm sure about separating out the ALL-CAPs/NON-BREATHERS from the BREATHERS. Have to wait and see.

"Charity" is of the category 3 variety, no?


message 3: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Jonathan wrote: "Yes, it fits into category 3 if you use those categories. I personally wouldn't have included ALL-CAP NON-BREATHERS and First Letter Capitalized Titled Chapters in the same category if I were makin..."

I agree with you about the ALL-CAP NON-BREATHERS. I'm just waiting until I get to them. What might be intended, is that in those ALL-CAP NON-BREATHERS, the angels are not narrating.


message 4: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Jonathan wrote: "Ohhhh, now I get your question Nathan. We're partly not on the same page because the title of the thread is wrong. The chapter is titled CHARITY."

Geek time. I've got the second printing hardcover, which is "Charity." Which one have you got? I'll change the title to reflect the ambiguity.


message 5: by Aloha (new)

Aloha | 497 comments Now I'm going to have to check the caps, etc. in the hardback and eBook. Finding everything about this book is a fun mystery. McElroy should like how we're tracking things down about this book.


message 6: by Aloha (new)

Aloha | 497 comments I have the first edition hardcover, Knopf.

I didn't get this notification. I get spotty notification from this forum.


message 7: by Aloha (new)

Aloha | 497 comments The CHARITY is in the eBook.


message 8: by Aloha (new)

Aloha | 497 comments In the eBook, the caps are as follows:

OPENING IN THE VOID (smile)
IN FUTURE
THE CURVE SPEAKS UPON THE VOID


message 9: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Aloha wrote: "In the eBook, the caps are as follows:

OPENING IN THE VOID (smile)
IN FUTURE
THE CURVE SPEAKS UPON THE VOID"


As are in my second printing. I assume you two both have first printing. On the copyright page, mine reads:

"Published April 7, 1987
Second Printing May 1987"

My guess is that Dalkey had only one printing. The ebook is unsanctioned, to the best of my knowledge.


message 10: by Aloha (new)

Aloha | 497 comments Mine says:

THIS IS A BORZOI BOOK
PUBLISHED BY ALFRED A. KNOPF, INC.

Copyright 1986 by Joseph McElroy

FIRST EDITION

Since no printing is indicated, I assume it's a first printing.


message 11: by Aloha (new)

Aloha | 497 comments The title page on the bottom says:

ALFRED A. KNOPF
New York
1987


message 12: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Aloha wrote: "Mine says:

THIS IS A BORZOI BOOK
PUBLISHED BY ALFRED A. KNOPF, INC.

Copyright 1986 by Joseph McElroy

FIRST EDITION

Since no printing is indicated, I assume it's a first printing."


Yep.


message 13: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Jonathan wrote: "I can't imagine too many scenarios where the title would get decapitalized other than because of a McElroy ordered correction. "

Given what I understand of your reading of the chapter, I'm assuming the change originates with McElroy, brining it in line with the titling scheme. I've heard, too, that the credits on the copyright page were also expanded in the 2nd printing. Have you noticed any glaring typos in the 1st, ones that aren't McElroy's own intentional skews?


message 14: by Aloha (new)

Aloha | 497 comments I'm going back in the eBook and making digital stickies to note shift in time, multiple identities, etc. Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid was an easy read by comparison. This review is going to take a while to put together considering the varying pieces to tie together and the subtlety.


message 15: by [deleted user] (new)

this chapter gave me tingles. adore.


message 16: by Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn (new)

Nathan "N.R." Gaddis (nathannrgaddis) | 662 comments Jonathan's deleted posts :::

#2----
Norma, walking home from work to home, recalls in flashes various parts of her day including being given a permanent job with the Neighborhood Council, thinks about her husband Gordon who last night said/implied he is going to quit his job--though 'in the dark' last night also saying (without words), "I don't know if I want you". Norma contemplates a newfound sense of independence as she walks. Eventually she arrives home to the confirmation that Gordon quit his job and an uneasiness as Gordon questions her, sensing she has something to say that she won't tell him, that she 'probably couldn't explain'.

How do we classify this chapter? It is an ALL CAP titled chapter and yet it is not a BREATHER. It features no mention of the breather angels, nor the interrogator, nor does it use "We". Also, it is very short. It is too time fractured to fit with the all lower case chapters. Why is the title not Normally Capitalized? What elements are included to make it ALL CAP or are not included that the Normally Capitalized Titled chapters have? All I can think of is that the chapter intersects with parts of scenes from many other chapters, to the degree that my memory is somewhat overwhelmed (paraphrasing Hallberg), there's Jimmy reappearing, a double dose of Mayn, Lar'. What do you all think?


#4----
Yes, it fits into category 3 if you use those categories. I personally wouldn't have included ALL-CAP NON-BREATHERS and First Letter Capitalized Titled Chapters in the same category if I were making the wiki page.

The wiki categories are fine, even very good for what Wikipedia is supposed to be (didn't Aloha update it? She did a great job), but I want to flesh out even more the rules if you will that McElroy used when deciding how to title/construct his chapters, and I feel like they are more complex than the categories on wiki make them out to be.


#6---
Ohhhh, now I get your question Nathan. We're partly not on the same page because the title of the thread is wrong. The chapter is titled CHARITY.


#8---
First hardcover. What is the capitalization in the Dalkey, the e-book? If it is Charity in everything but the first hardcover edition, I gladly accept Charity as the standard. What is your capitalization of OPENING IN THE VOID (smile), IN FUTURE, and THE CURVE SPEAKS UPON THE VOID? I assume the same?


#10----
Which edition do you have Aloha?


#18---
I think the title makes more sense as Charity. I can't imagine too many scenarios where the title would get decapitalized other than because of a McElroy ordered correction. The (possibly unauthorized) ebook is probably only CHARITY because based on the first edition.


#20----
Not yet. I'm happy to have a first edition, but I'm a little irked that there may be corrections to the text that I don't know about.


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