Richard III discussion

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message 1: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments For those interested in Elizabeth Woodville and who wish to read a more sympathetic treatment of her:
Amazon is offering a pre-order of Emma Darwin's A Secret Alchemy which will be issued on June 2, 2009. The price is $10.19. This is the paperback version.


message 2: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Ricardians are warned that Lancaster and York by Trevor Royle has been reissued under the title The Road to Bosworth Field. The research and accuracy has not improved.


message 3: by MAP (new)

MAP | 181 comments Heeeey I know where you're getting your information. ;)


message 4: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Same place as you? Have you been following the dispensation discussion?


message 5: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Ikonopeiston wrote: "For those interested in Elizabeth Woodville and who wish to read a more sympathetic treatment of her:
Amazon is offering a pre-order of Emma Darwin's A Secret Alchemy which will be issued on Jun..."


Do you know anything about The King's Grey Mare by Rosemary H. Jarman? Just reissued and it's ready for me to pick up at the library.




message 6: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I have not read it but want to. I honestly have no notion of whether is is pro or anti Woodville. Jarman seems to have a habit of rounding her characters so that you see all their facets so I would think it would paint a decent picture of that polarizing woman.


message 7: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments The Jarman book is heavy on the witchcraft element. Philippa Gregory's forthcoming novel on Elizabeth sounds like a rehash of it.




message 8: by MAP (last edited Feb 03, 2009 06:45PM) (new)

MAP | 181 comments So that's the first Plantagenet novel PG is rolling out? I saw an interview where she said that her next books would be about this era.


message 9: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Yup. Here's the Amazon UK description of it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Queen-P...


message 10: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Isn't there an error in that description? I think Edward V was never crowned. Please correct me if I am wrong.


message 11: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments No, he wasn't. But the copywriter might just mean "became king."


message 12: by MAP (new)

MAP | 181 comments I picked up an Elizabeth I book once that described on the back that Dudley was offered to "her sister Mary" for marriage! Fortunately, that wasn't what it said in the book; the author was obviously talking about Mary, Queen of Scots. But I guess the back-of-the-book writing people couldn't keep track of all the Marys. If I were an author, I would be so irked by something like that.


message 13: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Susan wrote: "The Jarman book is heavy on the witchcraft element. Philippa Gregory's forthcoming novel on Elizabeth sounds like a rehash of it.

"


Interesting. How much truth is there in the witchcraft rumors regarding Elizabeth and her mother. I recall Jarman had them as witches in We Speak No Treason as well.



message 14: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Susan wrote: "Yup. Here's the Amazon UK description of it:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/White-Queen-P..."


My, from that description is sounds like she's going to have quite a field day with this one - might even top The Other Bolyen Girl.




message 15: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I wonder if the Jarman book is the sole source of the water-witch(Melusine?) story concerning Elizabeth. And does anyone know who the girl Grace was in love with?


message 16: by Susan (last edited Feb 04, 2009 08:01AM) (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Interesting. How much truth is there in the w..."

Jacquetta was accused of witchcraft in 1469 by one of Warwick's followers. Edward IV was Warwick's prisoner at the time. When he was released, the charges were dropped after none of the supposed witnesses came forward with proof.

Richard III revived the witchcraft allegations in 1484, this time including Elizabeth as well as her mother. He claimed to be able to offer proof, but never did.

As for Melusine, Jacquetta of Luxembourg's family did claim a mythic descent from Melusine, but other families claimed similar types of descent. There's no evidence whatsoever that Elizabeth made use of the legend. She engaged in the usual pious Christian activities expected of a queen.





message 17: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Ikonopeiston wrote: "I wonder if the Jarman book is the sole source of the water-witch(Melusine?) story concerning Elizabeth. And does anyone know who the girl Grace was in love with? "

Do you mean the Grace who was Edward IV's illegitimate daughter? As far as I know, all that is known of her is the mention of her as being present at Elizabeth Woodville's funeral ceremonies.

Anne Easter Smith has a novel coming out next month with Grace as the heroine. It's called The King's Grace.




message 18: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Yes, that is the Grace I meant. She is featured in The King's Grey Mare and I have just read a review which answers my question about her lover.

I know about the various families who claim descent from mythic deities but I think it was Jarman who told of a near riot in London concerning the witchcraft rumours surrounding Elizabeth and her forbear, Melusine. I do not know if there was any historical basis for this story.


message 19: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Just found this on Wik, "Elizabeth was crowned Queen on Ascension Day, 26 May 1465. There was an infamous incident at her coronation which was not attended by Edward IV (kings traditionally did not attend their consorts' coronations) in which her mother's Luxembourg kinsmen landed in a ship at Ship's Green and arrived at Westminster Abbey carrying shields painted with the figure of Melusine, a "water-witch" (actually a medieval version of the old pagan goddess) described variously as a mermaid or possibly as a female figure depicted as a snake from the waist down, but with the face clearly that of the young Queen. This immediately caused whispers of witchcraft to circulate throughout the Abbey, as it was indeed the intention of the Luxembourgers to suggest an accusation of witchcraft thereby. Elizabeth's brother Anthony came to her rescue, driving the Luxembourg kinsmen forth from the Abbey all the way to Ship's Green where he would not allow them to embark and depart until he had answered this charge of witchcraft in single combat with every one of them and scratched every Melusine shield. (This "infamous incident" appears to be a modern invention. It is not recorded in any of Elizabeth Woodville's modern biographies, including the relatively hostile one by David MacGibbon, or in any contemporary chronicle."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabet...


message 20: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Ikonopeiston wrote: "Yes, that is the Grace I meant. She is featured in The King's Grey Mare and I have just read a review which answers my question about her lover.

I know about the various families who claim des..."


I don't think there is any historical basis. No contemporary source mentions such riots or near riots, and none of Elizabeth's biographers mention such an incident. Nor do writers like Paul Murray Kendall who are hostile to the Woodvilles.




message 21: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments While not about Richard, you all might find this one interesting.

Arthurian Myths and Alchemy The Kingship of Edward IV

by Jonathan Hughes

This study of late medieval kingship and its myth seeks to remove Edward IV from the shadow of his younger brother Richard III and reinstate him in history as a young, handsome and chivalrous king, surrounded by a vigorous and intelligent court, modelled on that of Arthur. In an enthusiastic and detailed narrative, Hughes examines the contradictions in Edward's personality, the state of England's kingship after the reigns of Henry V and Henry VI, and the creation of the myth surrounding Edward as the redeemer of England and England's rebirth as Camelot. The study also looks in detail at the cultural and scientific achievements of the court from the perspective of the 15th-century alchemist. Finally, Hughes chronicles Edward's flaws which led to the fall of Camelot. This is an unusual but interesting study. 354p, b/w illus (Sutton 2002)




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