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UF BOOK CHAT > Kitty Norville Series (Possible Series Spoilers!)

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message 1: by [deleted user] (new)

Started this yesterday and I haven't been able to put it down. Really, really nice idea for an urban fantasy centering the action around a werewolf radio DJ. Interesting pack dynamic as well. I don't know about you, but I found the dynamic in Kelley Armstrong's 'Bitten' very weak. I've seen the idea of packs explored better in Patricia Brigg's 'Moon Called' and now this.

Anyway, anyone who liked Anita Blake before it went silly and anyone in the mood for interesting characters and a good story told well, check it out.


message 2: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 169 comments See, I found this book totaly annoying. I don't know if its the writer's style, or what it was but I just did not enjoy this book at all.


message 3: by Dawn (new)

Dawn (dawnv) | 367 comments I am big Kitty fan and I think her books get better each time. I also really like Bitten. In Bitten I was really focused on Elana and the only part of the pack dynamic I really noticed was only from her POV. I am just now starting the Moon Called so I cannot comment.



message 4: by Kelley Anne (new)

Kelley Anne Of the three Kitty and the Midnight Hour, Moon Called, and Bitten, I like the pack dynamic in Moon Called best. I loved Kitty and the Midnight Hour but I actually didn't like the pack dynamic that was shown in that particular book. Later books in the series I think were better for that, but I just wanted to keep slapping the alpha in the first book.


message 5: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 169 comments Kelley Anne- That is EXACTLTY how I felt reading Kitty. I just wanted to strangle the creep. I tried really hard to go with it, accept that its a 'logical' pack dynamic, but all I kept thinking was an Alpha should be a leader not a creep, a pig and an ass.


message 6: by Kelley Anne (new)

Kelley Anne Not only is the guy a jerk, but he really is just a bully! I can't figure out how he EVER became an alpha. I mean, he let others manipulate him even. I don't know, I just really hated him!


message 7: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 169 comments Yeah! He really wasn't bright enough to hold the position imo.

Maybe that's why I liked Bitten so much more. Jeremy isn't the stereotypical alpha, but he is a leader,a nd he's not just muscle- his brains are his biggest strength. I have much more respect for that.


message 8: by Dawn (new)

Dawn (dawnv) | 367 comments Kelly if you decide to finish the series you find out how he became an alpha and for me it was an interesting twist.


message 9: by Kelley Anne (new)

Kelley Anne Which book does that happen in? I've read all of the books that are currently out (or at least I think I have) and I must have missed something.


Jael ~ *~ Syhren ~* ~ (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejael) I believe they told how he became Alpha in Silver Bullet. it was very short but I do remember Kitty referencing it.


message 11: by Theresa (new)

Theresa  (tsorrels) Isn't the alpha in the Kitty series a scumbag? Or am I getting my book series mixed up?


Jael ~ *~ Syhren ~* ~ (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejael) Nope, you have the right series, he's a filthy rotten scumbag.


message 13: by Theresa (new)

Theresa  (tsorrels) Thanks, Jael. I think I was confused because we're discussing Kelley Armstrong's alpha, Jeremy, and Carrie Vaughn's alpha, Scumbag (can't remember his name at the moment). :)

BTW, I like your new picture.


Jael ~ *~ Syhren ~* ~ (wwwgoodreadscomprofilejael) TY for the pic comment, I like your as well. Funny thing is I can't remember his name either but Scumbag works.


message 15: by [deleted user] (last edited Feb 05, 2009 06:21AM) (new)

I agree Carl is a complete scumbag. He's a needy, possessive manipulator, but if you read any book dealing with gangs or gang psychology it's invariably people like Carl who end up in power, insecure, abusive controllers, members of a disenfranchised group or minority who exploit the fears and weaknesses of their peers. Think Al Capone and the Italian immigrant community of 1920’s New York. Think the Black Kings of the Robert Taylor Homes’ projects in Chicago, policing, protecting and extorting an abandoned community, a community with no one else to turn to. In this context, Carl is a scumbag, but he’s a believable scumbag and a believable alpha. Kitty’s story is compelling because it’s all about her attempts to escape the dominance and mind-games of an insular pack, to build an identity outside the confines of Carl’s control

In contrast, Elena’s pack is nowhere near as convincing. Jeremy might live in a mansion, he might paint and meditate but where it counts he’s incompetent. We’re lead to believe that he’s the alpha of a long dynasty of werewolves. If the pack has lasted so long then why is it so small? One car crash is all it would take to cripple the pack. What happened to safety in numbers? During the course of ‘Bitten’, Jeremy’s inability to take any decisive action adds to the threat the pack faces. When Elena gets fed up of Jeremy taking the diplomatic route it takes her very little time to track down the mutt’s headquarters. If Jeremy’s such an uber-intelligent father figure, why didn’t he find it long before Elena? Why does nobody but Elena take serious exception to Jeremy’s meandering approach to leadership?

I’m dying to hear your thoughts because I find the whole thing a bit wobbly. Jeremy’s a likable character but there’s a big difference between a convincing leader and a wet dream.



message 16: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 169 comments Ah, ok, therein lies the difference betweenn what you appreciate in a book, and what I appreciate in a book. I put high emphasis on the "Fantasy" part of the genre label. I get enough reality on this side of the printed page. I don't enjoy reading about scumbags living it up in positions of leadership, believable or not.

I don't see Jeremy as indecisive or anything like that. Patient, definately. And maybe not your traditional Alpha (they stress this point throughout other books in the series). The pack has small numbers to keep from discovery. And many of Jeremy's decisions in the first book are rooted in how the pack has always done things. In later books you get more of a feeling of Jeremy striking out on his own in terms of how he makes his decisions. But he the strong quiet leader that gets things done through calculated strikes instead of pushing headlong into the fray.


message 17: by [deleted user] (last edited Feb 05, 2009 09:20AM) (new)

I'm not looking for scumbags in fantasy novels. I'm looking for stories well conceived characters in well conceived worlds. If you read Patricia Briggs' 'Moon Called' you find two examples of alphas who are not scumbags but who make very convincing leaders. Adam and the Marrok are both patient, both calculating and, more importantly, they get results.

I'm looking forward to reading more of Kelley Armstrong's work because I get the impression that 'Bitten' is the work of a writer finding her feet. I'm glad to find someone who puts high emphasis on the 'fantasy' part of urban fantasy. I do the same, and my argument is that 'Bitten' is a romance novel with fantasy trappings. The world it takes place in is not as meticulous as the worlds in 'Kitty' and 'Moon Called.' The focus is on Elena and Clay's relationship. Everything else in 'Bitten' is designed to shuffle them through different emotions, sex scenes and arguments until Elena realizes 'Clay is the one!' Maybe in future novels Armstrong shades in the world she neglects in 'Bitten' and Jeremy's character is foregrounded a bit more. But the idea that he gets things done through calculated strikes? I'm sorry, but which strikes were those, and what exactly did he get done?


message 18: by Jessica (new)

Jessica | 169 comments I've read Moon Called. And while I agree that Adam & the Marrok are both excellent characters but I wouldn't say they come off as 'better' Alphas than Jeremy does.

As for the details of what I mean reguardign Jeremy, its entirely possible that having read all except the most recent book in the series, my opinion may well be founded more in later books than in the original. And you do have a valid point that the first book has a much strong romantic storyline than was expected.

I think perhaps I don't notice those sorts of things because I read paranormal romance a lot too. So assuming I like the story and characters the exact genre is insignificant and doesn't play into my feelings about it. Which, maybe isn't fair when reccomending books to others.


message 19: by Theresa (new)

Theresa  (tsorrels) Jessica, I think that Jeremy becauses a stronger alpha the farther I got in to the series. He is one of my favorite male characters in the series now.


message 20: by Dawn (new)

Dawn (dawnv) | 367 comments Piotr The focus is on Elena and Clay's relationship. Everything else in 'Bitten' is designed to shuffle them through different emotions, sex scenes and arguments until Elena realizes 'Clay is the one!'

I totally agree, Bitten is more about Elena and her adventures. In the Kitty series I find it interesting that the old power (alpha and the alpha)were both weak leaders in their world - pawns of those behind the scenes and I like that. It kind of feels more realistic - I also like that the new leaders make mistakes, some are to trusting, to me Carrie Vaughn reminds us of the humans they once were while they are living with the beast within be it vampire or werewolf and that works for me.

Having said that I have only read Moon Called so it is to soon for me to pass judgment on Adam or the other alpha but I will say that I thought it odd that Adam likes Mercy and keeps a photo of her by his bed but yet he never makes his interests known until the wolf from the past moves in, again I have not read far enough into the series. I also like the alpha from Rachel Morgan who does not want a bunch of weres under him but when he gets them he handles it appropriately.


message 21: by Michael (new)

Michael (ramaloke) | 18 comments The thing about the Pack in the Kitty Norville books is the Pack Dynamic with Carl as a leader is SUPPOSED to suck. He is meant to be terrible, selfish, needy, possessive and all the other adjectives we can think of.

That is why Kitty left! Carl is one of her Catalysts for change. His being the way he is ultimately drives her out of town. She becomes her own creature after she leaves. The first book is about her finally mustering up the courage to leave a terrible and abusive system.


message 22: by Dawn (new)

Dawn (dawnv) | 367 comments Good point Michael.


message 23: by Jennifer (new)

Jennifer Wadsworth (jeniferj) I've not been much of a forum reader before, and I'm finding it fascinating how people interpret things differently though they're reading the same book. I found the Kitty books very good, but not exceptional. While I found the Briggs books fantastic and the Armstrong books very good. The opinions expressed here about Jeremy, in particular, are interesting. I've always seen Jeremy as a little too cautious, but otherwise very capable. I thought the Jeremy/Elena-Clay contrast was Cautions vs. Proactive. And I think Jeremy is very father-like because Elena needed a parent-figure to help her deal with the major change in her life. That being said, Hubby tells me the Men of the Otherworld book that just came out -- an anthology of short stories -- is primarily about Jeremy, though told from Clay's point of view a lot. So I'm intersted in checking that out. Jeremy seems to loosen up a bit when he's with Jamie! :)

Anyway...this is off topic. The thread is supposed to be about the Kitty books. I liked them a lot and agree that the alpha was DESIGNED to be an ass to serve as a major conflict point in Kitty's life. I just picked up the two new Kitty books, but almost want to reread the others before I start those; refresh my memory of the story before I go on.


message 24: by Anne (new)

Anne Cordwainer | 12 comments I agree with those who say the pack leader is supposed to be rotten. Kitty's wolf nature tells her to obey and submit no matter what; her human nature tells her not to put up with that. If the pack leader were a sterling and caring alpha, there'd be no conflict.

It's interesting how each of the Kitty books has been very different from the others. It's as if Kitty's life-changing moments and decisions actually change her life. :-)




message 25: by Beccy (new)

Beccy | 1 comments I just started Kitty and the Midnight Hour (Kitty Norville, #1) by Carrie Vaughn and i love it :D


message 26: by Julia (new)

Julia | 615 comments What I like about the Kitty Norville series is how much Kitty grows in each book.

What I like in the Women/ Men of the Otherworld series is that we get a book or two about one group of characters, say Elena and Clay. And then the next book is from someone else's entirely point of view. They are someone else in the same circle as the first or fourth woman/ man, but somehow they relate to each other.


message 27: by Kristen (last edited May 20, 2011 06:00PM) (new)

Kristen (kristen8) | 46 comments I love the Kitty Norville series, can't wait for the next one to come out. :)


message 28: by Susan (new)

Susan | 145 comments I love the Kitty series. Its one of my favorite shifters series. I also like Bitten with Elena and Clay.


message 29: by Liberty (new)

Liberty Abbott-Sylvester (iupuimom) Love this series! I recommend it all the time!


message 30: by Quick ben (new)

Quick ben (senseiping) | 5 comments Love the series but I feel not much is happening since the slasher style Kitty's House of Horrors.


message 31: by Erik (new)

Erik Nelson Got to agree with Krishna. The series seems to have stalled a bit. Still entertaining in its own way, but I can't help but think maybe the series could use a kick in the pants to get things moving again.


message 32: by Fred (new)

Fred Loucks-schultz | 18 comments Just started reading this series, and so far I'm really enjoying it. My wife picked up Kitty and the Midnight Hour a while back, but found the dynamic with Carl unpleasant enough (triggered some flashbacks, honestly) that she never finished it. I agree with Julia and Michael - the growth that Kitty undergoes in the first several books is the point, and I find her a much more interesting character than, say, Sookie Stackhouse... who actively refuses to engage in any serious self-examination over the first 3 novels (at which point I quit reading them). Kitty is far stronger than she gives herself credit for being, and the process of discovering this really does make the series interesting for me.

It's also fun to read a story set mostly in Colorado, written by a local author.


message 33: by Martin (new)

Martin (mafrid) | 23 comments Okay, I've got to ask...
What do you think of the larger story arc that started in Kitty Raises Hell and continued in Kitty's Big Trouble centering around the 'long game'?
I'm not too sure that it's a direction that I'll like, as I feel it's something that's been done so, so many times before.
What's your take on this?


message 34: by Fred (new)

Fred Loucks-schultz | 18 comments So far, I like the device as a background plot - it makes sense for the practically immortal vampires to be focused on the long term, while mortals have to pack everything into a single lifetime, which leads to an interesting dynamic regarding point of view. I'm about to pick up the final books in the series (up through the most recent release, at last!), and we'll see if she continues on the leadership trajectory she started in #8.


message 35: by Sharon (new)

Sharon (shazfly) | 6 comments Oh thread has made me want to see how many new Kitty's are out there since I last caught up (which was about 3 yrs ago). I love Kitty, and it always makes me smile to think of a Werewolf called Kitty :-) Another series to try that explores Werewolf dynamics (as well as Vamps) is the Riley Jensen Series by Keri Arthur. If you've enjoyed Vaughn, Briggs, Armstrong I'd recommend giving Arthur a try!Keri Arthur


message 36: by Martin (new)

Martin (mafrid) | 23 comments Fred wrote: "So far, I like the device as a background plot - it makes sense for the practically immortal vampires to be focused on the long term, while mortals have to pack everything into a single lifetime, w..."

I'm just worried that it'll turn into a "fight between good and evil" series that has been done so many times.
Kitty so far has had a much more loose structure with fairly stand alone stories, which are only loosely linked together and I for one don't want to loose that.


message 37: by Fred (new)

Fred Loucks-schultz | 18 comments Martin wrote: "Kitty so far has had a much more loose structure with fairly stand alone stories, which are only loosely linked together and I for one don't want to loose that."

Agreed - so far, Ms. Vaughn has done pretty well maintaining the looser structure. There were two novels in between the first two story lines that dealt with the Long Game, and none of the short fiction in "Greatest Hits" deals with it at all. Just starting in on the latest one, which the preview blurbs tell me will also deal with it. If, as I've read elsewhere, Ms. Vaughn is contracted for 4 more books beyond this one (or possibly 4 more including this one, not sure which), there's plenty of room for other plot lines.


message 38: by Julia (new)

Julia | 615 comments I just finished Kitty Steals the Show (Kitty Norville #10) by Carrie Vaughn and The Long Game is no longer in the background! Without giving too many spoilers, on a month old book, it's a major part of the plot. @Sharon, this is book #10...


message 39: by Anika (new)

Anika (teddybear1) | 110 comments I'm currently re-reading the Kitty Series, it reminds me of the Riley Jenson Series just without the sex. I working my way up to the current book. I'm reading now Kitty Goes to War (Kitty Norville, #8) by Carrie Vaughn . I've book 9 to re-read then I'll move to purchase book 10. I'm like this series. =D.


message 40: by Martin (last edited Sep 11, 2012 12:04AM) (new)

Martin (mafrid) | 23 comments Julia wrote: "I just finished Kitty Steals the Show (Kitty Norville, #10) by Carrie Vaughn and The Long Game is no longer in the background! Without giving too many spoilers, on a month old book, it's a major part of the plot. @Sharon, th..."

Darn it! I'll probably read #10 to see for myself, but if it's so then it'll be the last one for me. I had hoped that Miss Vaughn wouldn't turn down that path. Another original series that takes the easy way out.


message 41: by Julia (new)

Julia | 615 comments Martin wrote: I'm just worried that it'll turn into a "fight between good and evil" series that has been done so many times.

IMO that's not what's going on in Kitty Steals the Show (Kitty Norville #10) by Carrie Vaughn , but I'll be interested to read your take on it.


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