brian 's Reviews > Eating Animals

Eating Animals by Jonathan Safran Foer
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Oct 10, 2009

really liked it

TO SERVE MAN

i can't review this book. can't even finish it. the page-count to tears-shed ratio is just too high. and my head's not in the right place for this shit. (and talk about preaching to the choir…) -- i haven't read jonathan safran foer's novels and fuckoff what he's ever written or what he ever will write: he's a great man for this book alone. he's a great man by default, perhaps, because most people are such evil and miserable cunts. but, no. set apart from a race of miserable cunts he's still a great man.

the problem, really, with hitler and stalin and mao and all those other guys is not what they did... but what they didn't do. a bad case of extreme short-sightedness. they set their crosshairs on specific targets when what they really should have gone after was the destruction of the entire human race. (logistically i know this is problematic; you need to start small. but i can dream, eh?) if i found a magic lantern, before the genie uttered 'and your first wish can't be for a million more wishes', i'd already have made my only wish: that every human being on the planet be instantly transformed into a dog except for me (and rosario dawson. or marisa tomei. decades of silence and masturbation and i'd probably end up throwing myself off a bridge after a week-long romp with a border collie). and i'd hang out with all of 'em. i'd toss a few hundred dogs into a swimming pool and do laps. i'd play tag in forests with 'em. i'd take 'em swimming in oceans and lakes. and then i'd retire to my cabin, start a fire, pour myself and rosario a cold beer, stuff about 3 or 4 hundred dogs into a large room, and me and my woman'd take a long nap with/on them.

the human race is capable of such beauty and goodness, and life is not easy -- there's little clarity: it's seldom easy to know what is truly right or wrong. but factory farms? the torture and intense suffering of creatures weaker than us? no brainer. and all the war and peaces, all the mona lisas, all the moonlight sonatas, all the oskar schindlers and MLKs cannot possibly justify what we've done to one another, what we've done to the planet we inhabit, and most offensively, to the rape and utter destruction of the animal kingdom.

my dream scenario: as a result of the evil actions perpetrated on animals, a variant of swine or bird flu gets ultra-deadly, goes airborne, and wipes us all out. yes. we have reached the point in which the kanamits should come and 'serve' us. we've earned it. and we should know what it's like to be on the other end.

as human beings we simply must lie to ourselves about much -- but not about this. it is not necessary. but we do. and for what? for the least interesting of our five senses? because stuff tastes good? we tolerate factory farms because stuff is 'yummy'?
evil and miserable cunts.

do i sound too angry? hyperbolic? unstable? juvenile? like some blood-throwing PETA nut? am i 'not going to convince anyone with this tone'? good. i don't want to convince anyone. i just want the human-eradicating disease to come.
and come soon.

and if considering a vote for this review, understand that it's almost totally certain that if i knew you i'd wanna toss you in a woodchipper.
keep your vote, miserable cunt.
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Comments (showing 101-150 of 235) (235 new)


message 101: by brian (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   'eating his mouth'?

um... spitroast:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define...


Joshua Nomen-Mutatio I'M LEARNING! LOLGARYBUDDYSPITROASTMESIDEWAYS!


message 103: by trivialchemy (last edited Oct 16, 2009 10:59AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

trivialchemy My deletions did not contribute to the moving of the empathy comment, because I didn't post on the first page. I noticed the strange re-shuffling as well, but figured it was just someone else that thought this whole thread sucked, like me.

Nah, I think our boy Jason just got his panties in a big tight wad. Even though I kind of agreed/disagreed with the sentiment he was poorly espousing.


message 104: by [deleted user] (last edited Oct 16, 2009 11:03AM) (new)

Usually when the word 'spitroast' is employed, it's generally in the form of the phrase 'spitroast __________.' But we'll see in _____________ when __________________________.


message 105: by brian (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   LOLBUDDY!!!!!!!!


message 106: by [deleted user] (new)

________________________________________________!


message 107: by Worthless (new)

Worthless Bum Shucks brian, I don't think I could ask for a sweeter guy to throw me into a woodchipper.


Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Since no one else has done this yet, I will:

[image error]


message 109: by Worthless (new)

Worthless Bum Its brian!


Joshua Nomen-Mutatio And the most recent voter!


message 111: by Shelly (new) - added it

Shelly There are so many good reasons not to eat meat. I have such guilt about it. It's really not worth it. It's not as though I'm a healthier, stronger, more able-bodied person bc I eat meat. Hard to identify any advantages.


I think I'm gonna stop. Probably. Maybe.

BTW- great thread.


trivialchemy It just occurred to me that I've never in my life met a vegetarian who could beat me in a bar fight.

Or even stand a chance, for that matter.


Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Look at all these people you can bar fight the shit outta!

http://www.ivu.org/people/


message 114: by Joshua Nomen-Mutatio (last edited Oct 16, 2009 02:39PM) (new)

Joshua Nomen-Mutatio I would love to have seen you drunkenly challenge Bruce Lee to a bar fight. "Hey, you fucking vegetarian pussy!! Let's take this outside! I work for NASA and I'll kick your kung fu-ing, no meat-eating ass RIGHT NOW!!!"


message 116: by brian (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   heh heh.
good luck with clint eastwood.
at seventy-nine he'd have you on your ass in seconds, harp.

and it was just that meat-eating bar-fighting toughguy pose that tolstoy, einstein, and countless others were referring to when they equate the slaughterhouse and the battlefield.
lame.




message 117: by brian (last edited Oct 16, 2009 02:42PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   thanks MFSO.
isaiah continues to litter this thread with goodreads' all-time stupidest comments.


trivialchemy whoops again, X-post.

But then again, "His daughter live on the Big Breakfast (British TV programme) said he was 100% vegetarian about 8 years ago" isn't particularly convincing. And I know he didn't get to look like this:
[image error]

eating fuckin' chickpeas*.


*I love chickpeas.


trivialchemy Look, I'm happy to become a vegetarian when I'm 79 and I've done everything athletic I want to do. Until then, I'll be chawing down on birdflesh, thanks.


Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Between the ghost of Bruce Lee, the actual tough old bastardness of Eastwood, and your wood chipper, I'd say the vegetarians already make a pretty good bar brawling team.


message 121: by brian (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   i know he didn't get to look like this eating fuckin' chickpeas.

on what basis, genius?

you should stop now, isaiah. seriously.
your texasness is coming through too strongly.



message 122: by [deleted user] (new)

Isaiah wrote: "Until then, I'll be chawing down on birdflesh, thanks. "

GROSS!




trivialchemy brian wrote: "i know he didn't get to look like this eating fuckin' chickpeas.

on what basis, genius?

you should stop now, isaiah. seriously.
your texasness is coming through too strongly.
"


On the basis of the fact that the only evidence that he ever was a vegetarian on www.ivu.org is a quote from about 8 years ago by his daughter on a British TV program.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I've done extensive research on dietary needs in athletics. I've read the arguments about vegetarianism that are actually sane. This is the only guy who could come within a hair's breadth of convincing me that it's possible:
http://www.richroll.com/

But I'm just not convinced enough by any of the moral arguments (which no one actually every bothers to make by the way; re-read this thread and find a single coherent statement about why we shouldn't eat meat except waaaaaaah it makes me saaaaaad!*) to try and be as hardcore as that guy. He's a stronger man than me, that's for sure. But in a barfight, I'd just cut a bottle open and shove it in his eye. So there you have it.


* I actually tentatively respect this reaction, even though I'm mocking it here. I just don't understand it. Disabled ethical sense? Maybe. My ex-girlfriends would say so.


message 124: by brian (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:03PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   you seem to be in perpetual battle against an army of straw men, isaiah.
and even against them you are losing.

i'm stunned actually that even after you deleted your own stupidest comments, one reading this thread could only make one assumption about you.

at the top of the thread i was gonna ask everyone to refrain from making those obvious jokes about 1) being able to beat up vegetarians and 2) end a post with a joke about 'now i'm going off to eat some animals'. i was going to do this b/c it seems impossible for meat eaters to speak to non meat eaters w/o doing this. but i refrained as i figured it'd weed out the morons. yup.

you don't need to do extensive research to understand why eating meat is immoral. you might disagree, but can you really not imagine w/o us telling you? and w/o reducing us to waaaaaa*? moreover, and as i pointed out, that argument has become irrelevant as with factory farms it's now about torture suffering & cruelty rather than simply eating meat.

*meateaters also love to portray non meat eaters as whiney sentimentalists. foer asks who is the more sentimental: 1. "i like the taste of meat but fuck putting the result of torture in my body", or 2: "meat is yummy! i want it so bad! i don't care about cruelty or animals. i just want my meat!" hmmm....


message 125: by Joshua Nomen-Mutatio (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:01PM) (new)

Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Slightly off-topic: Brian, you might want to check out Consider the Lobster. You won't really learn anything new from the titular essay, but I think the treatment of the subject of consuming animals is worth it alone. Plus, the other essays are great, too, including the one about Updike (that's two topics your interested in, in one book! Oh, plus porn in another!).


message 126: by brian (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   read it MFSO and love it.
the porn essay is tragic and incredible.
he nails latter-day updike, as well.
yeah, his essays are top notch.


message 127: by trivialchemy (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:04PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

trivialchemy I didn't delete my comments because I thought they were stupid. I deleted them because I thought their tone was unnecessarily petty, and also I said some things that I thought were personal that were mocked in a way that I thought was inappropriate, leading me to believe that they were misunderstood and should never have been said at all.

I apologize for the jokes about beating up vegetarians. My larger point stands: if one is involved in athletics, and if one spends a lot of time, money, and effort becoming stronger and more physically competent (for whatever reasons) it is extremely difficult to meet one's dietary needs on a vegetarian diet. Guys like Richard Roll prove that it can be done, but they are extremely rare, and when they succeed they usually make a career out of the fact that they've done it.


message 128: by [deleted user] (new)

That porn essay pops into my head all the time. So depressing.


message 129: by Joshua Nomen-Mutatio (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:05PM) (new)

Joshua Nomen-Mutatio brian wrote: "read it MFSO and love it.
the porn essay is tragic and incredible.
he nails latter-day updike, as well.
yeah, his essays are top notch. "


Oh, cool. That's what I thought, actually. But I checked to make sure and it's not on your shelves. Or did I not look hard enough?


message 130: by brian (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:07PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   it can be done, but they are extremely rare, and when they succeed they usually make a career out of the fact that they've done it.

more bullshit.

this is a subpar debate. even for me!!! and i'm a petty argument-loving motherfucker!

didn't our own DFJ just run the nyc marathon on an all-veggie diet? and who is that UFC fighter (that monster) who is a vegetarian? and- aw, fuckit. what's the point...


message 131: by brian (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   it probably isn't in my shelves, MFSO.
but i've read it.
i'll add everything i've read at some point.


trivialchemy brian wrote: "meateaters also love to portray non meat eaters as whiney sentimentalists. foer asks who is the more sentimental: 1. "i like the taste of meat but fuck putting the result of torture in my body", or 2: "meat is yummy! i want it so bad! i don't care about cruelty or animals. i just want my meat!" hmmm...."

As I've said repeatedly, I actually bow my head in deference to the sentimentalism that disinclines some people from eating meat. I can not challenge it. But I don't understand it. The conclusion you can draw from these is either (a) I am a sociopath, or (b) there is something here that needs to be explained to some people; it's not a sentiment inherent to the human experience.

Since I don't like murdering people, don't even like doing simple things like sleeping with girls that I don't care about if I can help it, I tentatively doubt that (a) is the case. But if (b) is the case, for some reason no one has ever explained the sentiment to me. They just shout at me that I'm a killer and heartless and I'm immoral and I write the stupidest comments on Goodreads. But until they can speak up with a case that's sensible and ethical, I'm going to continue to have to allow them to do their own thing, but politely decline understanding it.


Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Montambo wrote: "That porn essay pops into my head all the time. So depressing."

Yeah, totally. Right off the bat the first paragraph basically translates to "HOLY SHIT!"

It's also really hilarious. In a dark, nauseating way.


trivialchemy brian wrote: "it can be done, but they are extremely rare, and when they succeed they usually make a career out of the fact that they've done it.

more bullshit.

this is a subpar debate. even for me!!! and i'..."


There is no point, if the only way you can react to it is with emotional hysterics in the same vein as your review (which, forgive me for thinking at one point was tongue-in-cheek). Running a marathon does not require very much training. And I told you, there are people out there that are very competitive that are on vegetarian or vegan diets. But you sure as hell know who they are, because they go around announcing it on talk shows and writing books about it. The vast, vast majority of amateur and professional athletes need to eat meat, or their training suffers.


message 135: by brian (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   they just shout at me.. (that) I write the stupidest comments on Goodreads.

more bullshit.
you write this as if in the course of you trying to understand why killing animals could be construed as immoral i insulted you.

no, isaiah. it was after saying you could beat any vegetarian up (including, by extension, myself) simply b/c we don't eat meat. (small dick tactic?) -- after making repeated jokes about eating animals and various other obvious and general comments about people who choose not to eat meat.

your tone now is much more respectful, but you kinda had to be pushed there, didn't you? and no problem with coming into the ring with your fists up, but be prepared to be hit back, eh? (and yes i appreciate the irony in my choice of metaphor)


trivialchemy brian wrote: "
no, isaiah. it was after saying you could beat any vegetarian up (including, by extension, myself) simply b/c we don't eat meat. (small dick tactic?) -- after making repeated jokes about eating animals and various other obvious and general comments about people who choose not to eat meat."


I thought we were all just taking the piss out of one another at that point; perhaps I misread the tone. And the bar fight thing wasn't out of nowhere: I was responding to Shelly's comment, which I'm pretty sure was sarcastic.

I really, truly, don't want to denigrate vegetarians. That's part of why my old comments got deleted. In fact, you may think this is a non sequitur, but most of my ex-girlfriends that I was really into were vegetarians. Why is that? I don't know. There's something about the way a vegetarian views the world that I actually have a great respect for, as I've said over and over. But that said, they're also ex- for a reason. I don't understand their world-view as much as I try. And I would get in fights with these women all the time about stuff like this. So it's emotional for me in the conjugate of the way it is for you.




message 139: by Joshua Nomen-Mutatio (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:21PM) (new)

Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Meat is a luxury at this point. It is not necessary in order to achieve an amazing physique. This is the weirdest defense of meat-eating I've ever heard. A lot of athletes load up on carbs anyway during training in order to burn calories and build muscle and meat isn't even the best source of the equally important element of protein. High concentrations of protein can be found in many other ways aside from consuming meat. I thought this was common knowledge. I knew this for a long time before I quit eating meat.

The only difference is that broccoli and tofu don't stimulate the reward centers of our brains like meats and sugar do. These are the brains we have from important stages in evolution, but our physiology does not dictate our moral reasoning.


message 140: by brian (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:24PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   isaiah:

so first you write this:

it is extremely difficult to meet one's dietary needs on a vegetarian diet

and then this:

The vast, vast majority of amateur and professional athletes need to eat meat

which is it?
difficult or impossible?

we both know it's difficult. animal flesh (even animals tortured through life and death) provides tremendous protein. protein that we both know, yes, can be gotten in other places. but it's just too difficult, isn't it? fuck morality or compassion, i want cheap and easy protein. i get it.

who's the 'waaaaaaaaaa!' now?

*thanks MFSO. yes, it is a ridiculous argument stating that meat is absolutely necessary and the sole source to build muscle and to train properly.


trivialchemy MyFleshSingsOut wrote: "A lot of athlete load up on carbs anyway during training in order to burn calories and build muscle and meat isn't even the best source of protein. High concentrations of protein can be found in many other ways aside from consuming meat. I thought this was common knowledge. I new this for a long time before I quit eating meat."

Almost every statement made about nutrition in this paragraph is bizarre and irrelevant. I really don't think this argument is worth having. There's a difference between having an "amazing physique" and competitively training in a sport. I know, because I used to only care about my physique, and now I train competitively. And there's a LOT fuckin' more to nutrition than getting the right combination of macronutrients (carbs, protein, fat).


trivialchemy brian wrote: "which is it?
difficult or impossible?"


It is difficult. It is not impossible.

I find it difficult to the point of impracticable. But I have lots of responsibilities besides my training.




Joshua Nomen-Mutatio It's not even "cheap" protein, really. Especially if you want decent quality meat. I'm pretty sure you can be filled up on beans and high protein soy products for less or at least the same amount of money as you can with meat.

And there's simply no way around the ethical argument for vegetarianism and veganism. Unless one wants to declare moral nihilism, in which case, they've given up their place at the table of the common project of Being Human. Most people don't want to do this.


message 144: by brian (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:28PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   isaiah: you should read the book that this thread lies under.

you should read DOMINION by matthew scully.
scully was george w. bush's first term top speechwriter. he's a conservative christian red-state right-wing barfighting republican.
and he has written the best book i've ever read on meat eating and animal rights.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/72...

read either one if you'd like a reasoned argument against meat.


Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Peter Singer has multiple books on the subject worth checking out. He's a highly skilled ethicist, especially on these issues.


trivialchemy MyFleshSingsOut wrote: "It's not even "cheap" protein, really. Especially if you want decent quality meat. I'm pretty sure you can be filled up on beans and high protein soy products for less or at least the same amount of money as you can with meat."

It's not about money. I pay a SHIT-ton of money for my diet. It's about nutrient concentration. Higher up on the food chain = higher nutrient density. This is a basic fact of biochemistry. And I'm not going to get into this argument precisely because I don't want to go through nutrition 101 to make a commonly accepted point about athletes' diets.

And, guys, I promise, I will look into some of these books.

But for now, I really need to finish some work before quitting time.


message 147: by Joshua Nomen-Mutatio (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:43PM) (new)

Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Ok. But I doubt it's as complicated as you make it sound. It appears after about 20 seconds of Googling that it's not so much of an anomaly for extremely disciplined and in-shape athletes to be vegetarian or vegan.

I just ignored the nagging feeling that I was being immoral by supporting the meat and dairy industry when I ate their products. I knew there was no good reason for it and that I simply was more often than not eating what tasted good and what I was accustomed to eating. I just don't buy the "I'm an athlete" justification any more than the "I'll get sick or die if I don't get meat-based protein" argument.

But now I feel like a good ol' annoying hippy. Probably one of the main things I feared about changing my dietary habits.


message 148: by brian (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:54PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

brian   this clip is astonishing:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/20...


i think MFSO is gonna be all over the comment page after this video.



message 149: by Joshua Nomen-Mutatio (last edited Oct 16, 2009 03:58PM) (new)

Joshua Nomen-Mutatio That is great. There's tons and tons of data on this kind of behavior in the non-human animal world. Some chimpanzees will starve themselves if food isn't distributed equally in the lab until their fellow chimps are fed. Etc.


message 150: by Joshua Nomen-Mutatio (last edited Oct 16, 2009 11:11PM) (new)

Joshua Nomen-Mutatio Animal behavior is a field I've been pretty close to trying to break into. I still consider it often.


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