Ian "Marvin" Grayejoy's Reviews > The Symposium
The Symposium
by Plato
by Plato
Ian "Marvin" Grayejoy's review
bookshelves: cul-poli-phil-art, desire, eros, read-2013, reviews, reviews-4-stars, plato
Aug 12, 2013
bookshelves: cul-poli-phil-art, desire, eros, read-2013, reviews, reviews-4-stars, plato
Read from August 12 to 29, 2013
I Never Met a Physician Who Wasn’t Descended from a Greek
This might just be the work that put the "meta-" (at least the "metafiction") in "metaphysics".
Plato’s name is attached to it, but its principal focus is Socrates. And guess what? Socrates doesn’t so much elaborate on his own views as (1) recount the views of others (especially those of the female philosopher Diotima) and (2) indirectly reveal his views by his conduct and his responses to the views of others (especially the taunts of Alcibiades).
Even the concept of "Platonic Love" could possibly be more accurately attributed to Socrates, but more likely to Diotima.
In fact, I wonder whether this work proves that the Greek understanding of Love (as we comprehend it) actually owes more to women than men.
The Epismetology of the Word "Symposium"
Despite being familiar with the word for decades, I had no idea that "symposium" more or less literally means a "drinking party" or "to drink together".
In Socrates’ time, it was like a toga party for philosophers.
It’s great that this learned tradition was reinvigorated by Pomona College in 1953. How appropriate that Pomona was the Roman goddess of fruitful abundance. Of course, many of us will remember our first experience of a toga party from the film "Animal House".
More recently, perhaps in tribute to the film, the concept has transformed into a "frat party" (notice the derivation from the masculine word "fraternity"), which Urban Dictionary defines in its own inimitable way:
"A sausage fest with douchebag frat boys who let a lot of girls in and hardly any guys so they can slip date rape drugs into the girls’ drinks and have sex with them because obviously they can't rely on their charm."
If you substitute philosophers for frat boys, young boys for young girls, and wine and mead for date rape drugs, then you have the recipe for "The Symposium".
Alcohol-Free Daze
I should mention one other aspect of the plot (sorry about the spoiler, but the work is 2,400 years old today, so you've had enough time to catch up), and that is that Socrates appears to have attended two symposia over the course of two consecutive days.
In those days, future philosophers were counselled to embrace alternating alcohol-free days.
In breach of this medical advice, Socrates and his confreres turn up to this Symposium hung-over from the previous night. As a result, there was more talking than drinking.
If this had just been your run-of-the-mill Saturday Night Live Symposium, it’s quite possible that the legacy of this particular night might never have eventuated. Instead, we have inherited a tradition of Greek Love, Platonic Love, Socratic Method and Alcohol-Free Tutorials.
An Artist in Comedy as Well as Tragedy
One last distraction before I get down to Love:
It has always puzzled readers that "The Symposium" ends with a distinct change of tone as the feathered cocks begin to crow and the sun rises on our slumber party:
"Aristodemus was only half awake, and he did not hear the beginning of the discourse; the chief thing which he remembered was Socrates compelling the other two to acknowledge that the genius of comedy was the same with that of tragedy, and that the true artist in tragedy was an artist in comedy also."
Researchers at the University of Adelaide now speculate that what Socrates was saying was, "When you’re pissed, nobody can tell whether you’re serious or joking."
There is still some contention as to whether Socrates was referring to the inebriation of the artist or the audience.
Anyway, it remains for us to determine how serious this Socratic Dialogue on Love should be taken.
Togas on? Hey, Ho! Let’s go!
The Mocking Socrates’ Easy Touch
OK, so the tale starts with Apollodorus telling a companion a story that he had heard from Aristodemus (who had once before narrated it to Glaucon, who had in turn mentioned it to the companion – are you with me?).
The tale concerns a Symposium at the House of Agathon. On the way, Socrates drops "behind in a fit of abstraction" (this is before the days of Empiricism) and retires "into the portico of the neighbouring house", from which initially "he will not stir".
When he finally arrives, he is too hung-over to drink or talk, so he wonders whether "wisdom could be infused by touch, out of the fuller into the emptier man, as water runs through wool out of a fuller cup into an emptier one."
Addressing his host, he adds, "If that were so, how greatly should I value the privilege of reclining at your side!"
As often seems to be the fate of flirts, Agathon rebuffs him, "You are mocking, Socrates."
Instead, it is agreed that each of the attendees will regale the withered assembly with their views on Love.
Phaedrus (on Reciprocity)
Phaedrus speaks of the reciprocity of Love and how it creates a state of honour between Lover and Beloved. A state or army consisting of lovers whose wish was to emulate each other would abstain from dishonor, become inspired heroes, equal to the bravest, and overcome the world.
Phaedrus also asserts that the gods admire, honour and value the return of love by the Beloved to his Lover, at least in a human sense, more than the love shown by the Lover for the Beloved.
Paradoxically, this is because the love shown by the Lover is "more divine, because he is inspired by God".
I had to have an alcohol-free day before I understood this subtle distinction, so don’t worry if you’re having trouble keeping up.
Pausanius (on the Heavenly and the Common)
Pausanius argues that there are two types of Love that need to be analysed: the common and the heavenly (or the divine).
The "common" is wanton, has no discrimination, "is apt to be of women as well as youths, and is of the body rather than of the soul".
In contrast, heavenly love is of youths:
"...they love not boys, but intelligent beings whose reason is beginning to be developed, much about the time at which their beards begin to grow…and in choosing young men to be their companions, they mean to be faithful to them, and pass their whole life in company with them."
This love is disinterested (it is not "done from any motive of interest, or wish for office or power") and involves both honourable attachment and virtuous service.
Eryximachus (on the Healthy and the Diseased)
Eryximachus, a physician, defines Love in terms of both the soul and the body.
He distinguishes two kinds of love: the desire of the healthy and the desire of the diseased. These two are opposites, and the role of the physician is to harmonise or "reconcile the most hostile elements in the constitution", by analogy with music, which is an "art of communion".
Aristophanes (on "The Origin of Love")
Aristophanes explains the origin of the gender and sexuality of mankind in terms of three beings, one of which was a double-male (now separated into homosexual men), one a double female (now separated into homosexual women) and the third an androgynous double (now separated into heterosexual male and female) by Zeus:
"...the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover’s intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which she has only a dark and doubtful presentiment ...human nature was originally one and we were a whole, and the desire and pursuit of the whole is called love."
Agathon (on Beauty)
Agathon praises the god of love first and then his gift. Love in the form of Temperance is the master of pleasures and desires. It "empties men of disaffection and fills them with affection." Love is concerned with Beauty.
Socrates (on Good)
Socrates approaches the topic of Love by asking questions, for example, "whether Love is the Love of something or nothing?"
Socrates elicits the answer that Love wants Beauty and in doing so it wants what is Good.
He then quotes Diotima extensively.
The Pizmotality of Diotima
Diotima, by a process that we would now call the Socratic Method, leads Socrates to the conclusion that Love is the love of the "everlasting possession of the Good". We seek Good, so that we can maintain it eternally. "Love is of immortality."
Because Man is mortal, our way of achieving eternity or immortality of possession is the generation or birth of Beauty.
We achieve immortality by way of fame and offspring.
Diotima argues that Beauty applies to both the soul and the body. However, the "Beauty of the Mind is more honourable than the Beauty of the outward Form."
She advocates the contemplation of "Beauty Absolute":
"...a Beauty which if you once beheld, you would see not to be after the measure of gold, and garments, and fair boys and youths, whose presence now entrances you; and you and many a one would be content to live seeing them only and conversing with them without meat or drink, if that were possible – you only want to look at them and to be with them…[you would not be] clogged with the pollutions of mortality and all the colours and vanities of human life..."
Socrates does not reveal how else Diotima tutored him in the art and science of Love or whether she herself was a Beauty Absolute whose appeal was greater than that of boys and youths.

Alciabades (on Indifference)
At this point, the younger Alciabades speaks. He is equal parts frat and prat, he is evidently "in love" with Socrates, and seems intent on complaining that Socrates has resisted his sexual advances. Even though Alciabades had slept a night with "this wonderful monster in my arms... he was so superior to my solicitations...I arose as from the couch of a father or an elder brother."
It is clear that Socrates has no affection for the mind of Alciabades, no matter what he might think of his body. He teases him by proposing that Socrates and Agathon share a couch for the night.
The Pompatus of Love
And that's how it ends, but for the discussion of Comedy and Tragedy.
If this had been a PowerPoint Presentation, Socrates, Plato and I would have told you what we were going to say, then say it, and end by telling you what we had just said.
But because this work is pre-Microsoft, I will end this disquisition here, largely because I want to read Plato’s complementary work on Love, "Phaedrus", and see what more he has to say about Socrates, this mentor of frat boys who was so much more than a picker, a grinner, a lover and a sinner.
Only then will I be able to speak more definitively of the Pompatus of Love.
VERSE:
The Object of Love
[According to Aristophanes]
I would love
To find One,
An Other,
So we could
Each love one
Another,
In divine
Unity.
SOUNDTRACK:
Steve Miller Band – "The Joker"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89QliW...
Hedwig and the Angry Inch - "The Origin of Love"
Scroll to 3:57 for video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29fiaL...
Hedwig and the Angry Inch - "The Origin of Love"
Spanish subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTTNJZ...
John Cameron Mitchell on "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hu4UL...
Carol Zou - Animation of "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BgvD0...
StickdudeSeven - Animation of "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HgJ6x...
FoxmanProductions - Animation of "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvcX_m...
Jinkx Monsoon - "The Origin of Love" [Live with cocktail glass]
Starts at 2:50 (but the intro is fun):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFbC6k...
Jinkx Monsoon - "The Origin of Love" [Live at the 2013 Capital Pride Festival]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNQBSB...
Rufus Wainwright - "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYQGgl...
Robyn Hitchcock - "Intricate Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Av0x...
The Velvet Undergound & Nico - "Femme Fatale"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjDmX...
Lou Reed - Sweet Jane (Live with Steve Hunter)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrMLt9...
Cowboy Junkies - "Sweet Jane" (Official Video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4XVJj...
Cowboy Junkies - "Sweet Jane" (Live on Japanese TV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ3W9i...
This might just be the work that put the "meta-" (at least the "metafiction") in "metaphysics".
Plato’s name is attached to it, but its principal focus is Socrates. And guess what? Socrates doesn’t so much elaborate on his own views as (1) recount the views of others (especially those of the female philosopher Diotima) and (2) indirectly reveal his views by his conduct and his responses to the views of others (especially the taunts of Alcibiades).
Even the concept of "Platonic Love" could possibly be more accurately attributed to Socrates, but more likely to Diotima.
In fact, I wonder whether this work proves that the Greek understanding of Love (as we comprehend it) actually owes more to women than men.
The Epismetology of the Word "Symposium"
Despite being familiar with the word for decades, I had no idea that "symposium" more or less literally means a "drinking party" or "to drink together".
In Socrates’ time, it was like a toga party for philosophers.
It’s great that this learned tradition was reinvigorated by Pomona College in 1953. How appropriate that Pomona was the Roman goddess of fruitful abundance. Of course, many of us will remember our first experience of a toga party from the film "Animal House".
More recently, perhaps in tribute to the film, the concept has transformed into a "frat party" (notice the derivation from the masculine word "fraternity"), which Urban Dictionary defines in its own inimitable way:
"A sausage fest with douchebag frat boys who let a lot of girls in and hardly any guys so they can slip date rape drugs into the girls’ drinks and have sex with them because obviously they can't rely on their charm."
If you substitute philosophers for frat boys, young boys for young girls, and wine and mead for date rape drugs, then you have the recipe for "The Symposium".
Alcohol-Free Daze
I should mention one other aspect of the plot (sorry about the spoiler, but the work is 2,400 years old today, so you've had enough time to catch up), and that is that Socrates appears to have attended two symposia over the course of two consecutive days.
In those days, future philosophers were counselled to embrace alternating alcohol-free days.
In breach of this medical advice, Socrates and his confreres turn up to this Symposium hung-over from the previous night. As a result, there was more talking than drinking.
If this had just been your run-of-the-mill Saturday Night Live Symposium, it’s quite possible that the legacy of this particular night might never have eventuated. Instead, we have inherited a tradition of Greek Love, Platonic Love, Socratic Method and Alcohol-Free Tutorials.
An Artist in Comedy as Well as Tragedy
One last distraction before I get down to Love:
It has always puzzled readers that "The Symposium" ends with a distinct change of tone as the feathered cocks begin to crow and the sun rises on our slumber party:
"Aristodemus was only half awake, and he did not hear the beginning of the discourse; the chief thing which he remembered was Socrates compelling the other two to acknowledge that the genius of comedy was the same with that of tragedy, and that the true artist in tragedy was an artist in comedy also."
Researchers at the University of Adelaide now speculate that what Socrates was saying was, "When you’re pissed, nobody can tell whether you’re serious or joking."
There is still some contention as to whether Socrates was referring to the inebriation of the artist or the audience.
Anyway, it remains for us to determine how serious this Socratic Dialogue on Love should be taken.
Togas on? Hey, Ho! Let’s go!
The Mocking Socrates’ Easy Touch
OK, so the tale starts with Apollodorus telling a companion a story that he had heard from Aristodemus (who had once before narrated it to Glaucon, who had in turn mentioned it to the companion – are you with me?).
The tale concerns a Symposium at the House of Agathon. On the way, Socrates drops "behind in a fit of abstraction" (this is before the days of Empiricism) and retires "into the portico of the neighbouring house", from which initially "he will not stir".
When he finally arrives, he is too hung-over to drink or talk, so he wonders whether "wisdom could be infused by touch, out of the fuller into the emptier man, as water runs through wool out of a fuller cup into an emptier one."
Addressing his host, he adds, "If that were so, how greatly should I value the privilege of reclining at your side!"
As often seems to be the fate of flirts, Agathon rebuffs him, "You are mocking, Socrates."
Instead, it is agreed that each of the attendees will regale the withered assembly with their views on Love.
Phaedrus (on Reciprocity)
Phaedrus speaks of the reciprocity of Love and how it creates a state of honour between Lover and Beloved. A state or army consisting of lovers whose wish was to emulate each other would abstain from dishonor, become inspired heroes, equal to the bravest, and overcome the world.
Phaedrus also asserts that the gods admire, honour and value the return of love by the Beloved to his Lover, at least in a human sense, more than the love shown by the Lover for the Beloved.
Paradoxically, this is because the love shown by the Lover is "more divine, because he is inspired by God".
I had to have an alcohol-free day before I understood this subtle distinction, so don’t worry if you’re having trouble keeping up.
Pausanius (on the Heavenly and the Common)
Pausanius argues that there are two types of Love that need to be analysed: the common and the heavenly (or the divine).
The "common" is wanton, has no discrimination, "is apt to be of women as well as youths, and is of the body rather than of the soul".
In contrast, heavenly love is of youths:
"...they love not boys, but intelligent beings whose reason is beginning to be developed, much about the time at which their beards begin to grow…and in choosing young men to be their companions, they mean to be faithful to them, and pass their whole life in company with them."
This love is disinterested (it is not "done from any motive of interest, or wish for office or power") and involves both honourable attachment and virtuous service.
Eryximachus (on the Healthy and the Diseased)
Eryximachus, a physician, defines Love in terms of both the soul and the body.
He distinguishes two kinds of love: the desire of the healthy and the desire of the diseased. These two are opposites, and the role of the physician is to harmonise or "reconcile the most hostile elements in the constitution", by analogy with music, which is an "art of communion".
Aristophanes (on "The Origin of Love")
Aristophanes explains the origin of the gender and sexuality of mankind in terms of three beings, one of which was a double-male (now separated into homosexual men), one a double female (now separated into homosexual women) and the third an androgynous double (now separated into heterosexual male and female) by Zeus:
"...the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover’s intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which she has only a dark and doubtful presentiment ...human nature was originally one and we were a whole, and the desire and pursuit of the whole is called love."
Agathon (on Beauty)
Agathon praises the god of love first and then his gift. Love in the form of Temperance is the master of pleasures and desires. It "empties men of disaffection and fills them with affection." Love is concerned with Beauty.
Socrates (on Good)
Socrates approaches the topic of Love by asking questions, for example, "whether Love is the Love of something or nothing?"
Socrates elicits the answer that Love wants Beauty and in doing so it wants what is Good.
He then quotes Diotima extensively.
The Pizmotality of Diotima
Diotima, by a process that we would now call the Socratic Method, leads Socrates to the conclusion that Love is the love of the "everlasting possession of the Good". We seek Good, so that we can maintain it eternally. "Love is of immortality."
Because Man is mortal, our way of achieving eternity or immortality of possession is the generation or birth of Beauty.
We achieve immortality by way of fame and offspring.
Diotima argues that Beauty applies to both the soul and the body. However, the "Beauty of the Mind is more honourable than the Beauty of the outward Form."
She advocates the contemplation of "Beauty Absolute":
"...a Beauty which if you once beheld, you would see not to be after the measure of gold, and garments, and fair boys and youths, whose presence now entrances you; and you and many a one would be content to live seeing them only and conversing with them without meat or drink, if that were possible – you only want to look at them and to be with them…[you would not be] clogged with the pollutions of mortality and all the colours and vanities of human life..."
Socrates does not reveal how else Diotima tutored him in the art and science of Love or whether she herself was a Beauty Absolute whose appeal was greater than that of boys and youths.

Alciabades (on Indifference)
At this point, the younger Alciabades speaks. He is equal parts frat and prat, he is evidently "in love" with Socrates, and seems intent on complaining that Socrates has resisted his sexual advances. Even though Alciabades had slept a night with "this wonderful monster in my arms... he was so superior to my solicitations...I arose as from the couch of a father or an elder brother."
It is clear that Socrates has no affection for the mind of Alciabades, no matter what he might think of his body. He teases him by proposing that Socrates and Agathon share a couch for the night.
The Pompatus of Love
And that's how it ends, but for the discussion of Comedy and Tragedy.
If this had been a PowerPoint Presentation, Socrates, Plato and I would have told you what we were going to say, then say it, and end by telling you what we had just said.
But because this work is pre-Microsoft, I will end this disquisition here, largely because I want to read Plato’s complementary work on Love, "Phaedrus", and see what more he has to say about Socrates, this mentor of frat boys who was so much more than a picker, a grinner, a lover and a sinner.
Only then will I be able to speak more definitively of the Pompatus of Love.
VERSE:
The Object of Love
[According to Aristophanes]
I would love
To find One,
An Other,
So we could
Each love one
Another,
In divine
Unity.
SOUNDTRACK:
Steve Miller Band – "The Joker"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89QliW...
Hedwig and the Angry Inch - "The Origin of Love"
Scroll to 3:57 for video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29fiaL...
Hedwig and the Angry Inch - "The Origin of Love"
Spanish subtitles:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTTNJZ...
John Cameron Mitchell on "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hu4UL...
Carol Zou - Animation of "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BgvD0...
StickdudeSeven - Animation of "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HgJ6x...
FoxmanProductions - Animation of "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvcX_m...
Jinkx Monsoon - "The Origin of Love" [Live with cocktail glass]
Starts at 2:50 (but the intro is fun):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFbC6k...
Jinkx Monsoon - "The Origin of Love" [Live at the 2013 Capital Pride Festival]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNQBSB...
Rufus Wainwright - "The Origin of Love"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYQGgl...
Robyn Hitchcock - "Intricate Thing"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7Av0x...
The Velvet Undergound & Nico - "Femme Fatale"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjjDmX...
Lou Reed - Sweet Jane (Live with Steve Hunter)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrMLt9...
Cowboy Junkies - "Sweet Jane" (Official Video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4XVJj...
Cowboy Junkies - "Sweet Jane" (Live on Japanese TV)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJ3W9i...
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Aug 12, 2013 08:02PM
Accuracy to the wind, I have a soft spot for the Shelley translation.
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Great review,Ian! "symposium" more or less literally means a "drinking party" or "to drink together". Really? I didn't know about it.
In practice, I think a symposium is still pretty much a drinking party. People just give some papers first.
Only now did I have enough time to read your entire review, which has a lot of interesting information. I guess it will do for many years to come, instead of the book itself.I always wonder where are the Greeks from ancient times, as it seems none of their seeds are to be found in today's Greece. But the feasts are still going on, that is certain, minus the philosophical debates. I love Greek people, by the way.
Haha, no review of mine is intended as a substitute for the book. I've always wondered whether the Greeks of today are related to the Greeks of old.
I once thought it would be fun to respond to great reviews with comments in kind. But you've taught me the folly of this approach, Ian. It would require more words, wisdom and white space than I could ever muster.
Thanks, Jeff. I watched the Hedwig film a few weeks ago and only just realised that the animator was Emily Hubley. Her sister is Georgia who is in the Velvets-inspired Yo La Tengo. Their parents were famous animators. I met her mother Faith in the early 90's. She autographed a YLT album for me and many years later Georgia and Ira did too.
wiki articles for the animators Faith and John Hubley:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Hu...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hubley




