Join Goodreads

and meet your next favorite book!

Sign Up Now
Gabriel C. rated a book did not like it
over 1 year ago
Read in May 2012
-Arthur C. Clark is obsessed with exposition.
-He loves the idea of first contact with aliens to the point of sickness.
-He thinks that humans (who matter) are essentially rational technocrats, making their behavior both boring and puppet-like.
-The only female characters in this book were ape-men [sic] and two stewardesses.
-There were several pretty problematic passages, like the following:

"Yet already...the warmth and frequency of the conversations with their girls on Earth had begun to diminish. They had expected this; it was one of the penalties of an astronaut's way of life, as it had once been of a mariner's.

It was true---indeed notorious---that seamen had compensations at other ports; unfortunately there were no tropical islands full of dusky maids beyond the orbit of Earth. The space medics, of course, had tackled this problem with their usual enthusiasm; the ship's pharmacopeia provided adequate, though hardly glamorous, substitutes."

Look, I know Larry Niven is always talking about ship's whores and Robert Heinlein would get around it by having the ships fuck each other or having the crew be a bunch of nymphomaniacs or something, but something about the dry, dry pedantry of Clarke's writing makes this stand out as much worse. And I count six (though interrelated) distinct pieces of sexism/misogyny along with the one piece of racism in the four sentences.

I'm glad that I can leave this dude behind now and take a non-fiction break.
R. Peter I feel sorry for anyone who reads Arthur C. Clarke and "definitely" gets no benefit from him.
  • one year ago
Neal If you worry about the mild sexism/misogyny in Clarke, how can you bear even being on the internet for more than 5 seconds?
  • one year ago
kenji How is a work any better or worse for having/not having female character, this leftist social justice mindset is very stupid.
  • 2 years ago
Tracy Osimowicz I don't know if we should shun any work for simply containing an instance of discrimination. We'd lack all and any classic literature if that were the case and we'd have an incomplete view of our history as a thinking and evolving society. To give. Few examples, Huckleberry Finn contains racism and sexism, and Twain might've been a prejudiced man himself, but he and it are products of its time and many believe, including myself, a benefit to society, not a hindrance. Plato's dialogues contain copious amounts of sexism, but they are still a benefit to the public and, I feel, an enjoyable, beneficial read.

If we are to determine the value of a text by the morale it appears to (from one perspective) represent, and not the kinds of thought that it inspires within the reader, we'd have to eliminate nearly all of the classic literature in existence not to mention folk tales, religion and comic books!

Not to say that this is what you desire for society, I have no idea what you'd like!

There were famous women mathematicians of the time, that I do not deny, but I think that those that were famous were as much a product of the feminist movement as they were the increase in respect for the female population. I make this claim because the great female scientists and thinkers of history seem still largely to be in the shadows. Take the women who worked under Edward Pickering for example. They were the ones who devised the system for and classified thousands upon thousands of stars which is still used in modern astronomy. They were referred to by other scientists who worked with Pickering as "Pickering's Harem". I've never met an individual outside of a science lab who has heard of these women.

It just feels dangerous to reject a work as it represents reality, particularly in a field of science where historically and currently discrimination still occurs. I do not think that the work itself in necessarily a cause for discrimination, but more of a product of it. I think if we as a people are able to understand and move past sexism in science, both factual and not, and see this story and others that appear to ignore women as they have been in the scientific community without disregarding other revolutionary social breakthroughs in the process, we can benefit all the more greatly.

Personally, I think where it lacks in revolutionary social thought, "2001" it makes up for in imaginative scientific and fantastical exploration which I believe was the main focus of the novel, not so much how social relations might've changed in the future.

I applaud you if you bothered to read all of that...it turned out much longer than I meant it to, sorry. I also appreciate that you're willing to discuss and not reflexively disregard an opposing opinion. That occurs to often in internet and in-person discussion!
  • 3 years ago
Gabriel C. I definitely didn't (and don't) feel any benefit from reading this book. I don't think anything you said so made so much as a dent in my opinion. But it's just that, an opinion---I don't expect everyone to share my opinions and I'm certainly not going to tell you to fuck off because you don't share mine.

As far as your specific questions/responses to my itemized points, I read this book and several others by Clarke around the same time. I think that the position that these are conscious choices made in a way that is appropriate to the story being told is undermined by the fact that he uses essentially the same tone, same exposition, et cetera, in multiple books (in fact, in all of the books of his that I read; maybe that's three). That makes it seem less like a conscious choice and more like him being a one-note author.

I honestly don't think that dusky maids passage was put in intentionally as a bit of characterization; to me it seemed more like an omniscient aside. I agree that Clarke has no personal attack on women; I think this mode of sexism, even if it's less in-your-face, is still quite bad in a number of ways. One problem is that it is exclusionary. Maybe you can read this book with pleasure, but I think especially when it was first published, science fiction was very much a "boy's club" and it was hard for women to find _any_ representation of themselves in it. I think that this is part of a society-wide tendency at the time to shunt women away from careers or even interest in science or futurism, a tendency that to some extent continues today. In its small part, this book, by having no place for women, contributes/contributed to this kind of thing.

As for female scientists being mainstream in or before Clarke's time, at the time the book was written there had been a number of relatively recent excellent mainstream female scientists.
-Marie Curie had won two Nobel prizes in different sciences, remaining the only person to do so
-the mathematician and physicist Emmy Noether had revolutionized the field of ring theory in mathematics and the study of symmetry in physics
-Dorothy Hodgkin had won the Nobel prize in chemistry just a few years before the book was written.
-many others (du Chatelet, Ada Lovelace, Rosalind Franklin, Lise Meitner, Margaret Mead) just a google search away, these ones were just on the top of my head.
  • 3 years ago
Tracy Osimowicz -What's wrong with exposition? I think in this case it adds to the dimension of contemplation and visualization that can be particularly vivid for the reader in the right mood and enhance the reading experience! Also consider that there was a lot of previously unexplored ideas that Clarke was presenting for the first time to the public that might've required a little extra help in acquiring his vision of the future.
-Why sickness? Why not fascination? He explores the idea with no more length or delusion than any fantasy writer I've ever met. And please note that his book is labeled "science fiction" which indicates that he was quite aware that he knew what he wrote, he did not know. And even if he did, do you believe that all those that hold faith in any notion they find reasonable to be sick? Should all of the Catholics of the world be thrown in asylums?
-I believe this was not a depiction of an ideal humanity, or even of the humanity that matters. I believe the atmosphere was intentionally artificial, cold, and impersonal. It represents reality. It's what it is like to live in this universe, alone and scrabbling for a hold on existence. (It was also fascinating to me how the existence of eternity and contentment returned to something of origin, hot, inextricably whole, and in a way the ultimate social existence. Interestingly stark contrast, don't you think? Makes the way humanity was living seem obsolete...). It seems the idea here was to try to bridge the gap between the technical and the natural, to unify it into one reality for the reader.
-My being a woman, I can agree that more female representation would've only been fair and we are unjustly underrepresented in the novel, but I take this with a grain of salt considering the idea of mainstream female scientists, particularly revolutionary ones, was more unheard of in Clarke's time than it is today. Yes, it's sexist, but society was and is sexist. It, unfortunately, sticks to reality.

The fact that something of seemingly odd and disputably offensive nature as the casual mentioning of the tragedy of the loss of sexual pleasure only adds to the stark contrast in the forms of consciousness juxtaposed against each other by the end of the novel. And anyway, Bowman is a petty human with petty human desires as we all have, he's not lionized for them. I believe that the only reason they were brought up was to show how much of a connection he loses with his humanity and makes the final connection with that higher consciousness more plausible.

Since there seems to be no personal attack on women or their rights in society portrayed with any conscious effort throughout the novel and the sexism that it contains is not entirely constructed in the historical or even modern context, I see no reason to let that stop me from relating to the novel.

Of course, you don't have to agree with my opinion and I don't ask you to. I just hope that you could feel benefitted from reading the book as I do, and if not, could help me understand your perspective.

Or you could tell me to fuck off, that's always an option.
  • 3 years ago