Paul Bryant's Reviews > Basic Christianity

Basic Christianity by John R.W. Stott
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Mar 04, 2012

it was ok
bookshelves: godreads
Read on March 04, 2012

The mission : to find a book explaining Christian belief which makes the least bit of sense.

First attempt : Mere Christianity by C S Lewis. I think we know how that one went.

Second attempt : Basic Christianity by John Stott


***


The foreword of this tells me there are few landmark books that everyone in the world should read – "this is one of the few". This is the 50 year anniversary edition of the book originally published in 1958 and "in the 21st century you cannot afford to ignore this book!" Okay, I'm not ignoring. I'm told this will explain the basic worldview of one third of humanity.

Chapter one is called The Right Approach but it has the wrong approach. Immediately the non-believer runs into fundamental problems with the vocabulary. The whole idea of God is assumed – God as eternal, God as good and for Christians, God as personal. The entire assertion "God sent his only-begotten son" needs to be explained piece by piece – God needs to be explained letter by letter – me and the Christians need to start way way way further back to have any chance of understanding each other – you can't assume I know what you mean when you say these words. But this book does. For instance :

The Bible reveals a God who, long before it even occurs to men and women to turn to him, while they are still lost in darkness and sunk in sin, takes the initiative, rises from his throne, lays aside his glory, and stoops to seek until he finds them.

That's on page 2. Not good! The thing about this stuff is that without careful explanation I have no idea what in the above quote is supposted to be literal and what is metaphorical. Rising from a throne and stooping – that's surely metaphorical. But "initiative" – that's supposed to be literal. Yes? I think so, but I get no assistance from John Stott. So this is for me terminally confused language.

Here's a bold assertion. John Stott says :

Our chief claim to nobility as human beings is that we were made in the image of God and are therefore capable of knowing him.

And I say : Sez you! I think our chief claim to nobility is that we are still able to create love and art and music in the middle of this charnelhouse planet and in the face of our knowledge of the tiny spoonful of life we are able to live here, and that even in the middle of death, we live furiously and horribly and sadly and brilliantly, howling with laughter through the river of tears, and weeping at weddings and cheap pop songs.

Well something along those lines. You get my drift.

But let's try another chapter – The Fact and Nature of Sin, chapter 5. Now we run into another issue. John Stott is saying that Christianity is a project by God. He created humanity and gave us the free will to sin and guess what, we sin all day long, day in, day out. (Well, you know, quelle surprise. What did you expect, God?) Okay, you and me might say well, come on, John, I'm really too old to be sinning much these days, and he says no, even you goodreads reviewers are vile sinful wretches, because there is positive sin where you DO something which is wrong, like murder or invade a sovereign country or swindle millions, and it's reasonable for you to say that you haven't done any of those things lately, but then there's negative sin, which is where you haven't done something you should have done, and that's where we GETCHA!! Unless you're Mother Theresa you're just another dreadful selfish hideous squiggly mass of filthy sin in God's eyes. Yes, sorry, even you. You broke all the commandments before you cracked your four minute boiled egg this morning, yes you did don't you try to deny it you little creep I saw you.

Yes, there's a lot of this kind of thing in chapter five all right. John tut-tuts over us all :

We'd find it quite easy to consider ourselves good at high-jumping if the bar were never raised more than a few inches!

You see what he's saying ? Your standards of goodness are repulsively low. You might as well not have any. You worm. But hold on :

God is interested in the thought behind the deed, and the motive behind the action.

Actually, isn't that a bit hopeful? My motive for not ever washing my car is not laziness but environmentalism! All that wasted water! My motive for not joining the charity half-marathon in support of cancer research is also not laziness, it's to avoid being tempted into smugness and Pharisaic self-regard if I had done it! But actually John is more pitiless than me. He points out that

We may have attended church – but have we ever really worshipped God? We may have said our prayers – but have we really prayed?

Wow, this is Christianity as practised by the SS – come on now, Mr Bryant, your eyes were closed, you were in a church, but you weren't really praying – were you? Hmm? (Another twist of the thumb-screw, deacon).

John Stott is on much firmer ground when he talks about the collective action of humanity, but he only mentions this in asides. In 1958 the world was reeling from two world wars within forty years of each other, ending with the atom bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If he was writing in 2008, he'd have been pointing out climate change and general environmental woes, not to mention the one billion people on the planet still suffering in abject poverty. So human waywardness and selfishness - sin, if you like - is real all right. So, okay, let's go with humanity's sin. God's project is to rescue us all from its consequences – great! That's gotta be good news! But he does it in a really wierd way. It's like a Playstation game with hidden levels. It's not the way I would have done it at all.

Stott hammers home that the way God reconciles us with him & frees us (individually, conditionally) from sin is via the sacrifice of Jesus, the Crucifixion. Then he takes a paragraph to say that he can't explain why Christ was crucified. Not really. "Much remains a mystery." But he'll have a go.

1) Christ died as an example. Stott says that Christ demonstrated total non-resistance, complete passivity in the face of authority. If non-Christians persecute you for your belief, do not resist.

To bear unjust suffering patiently brings God's approval... Perhaps nothing is more completely opposed to our natural instincts than this command not to resist. Yet the cross urges us to accept injury, love our enemies and leave the outcome to God.

Whoah. This is very radical stuff. Seriously? So it was unChristian to declare war against the Nazis? Let Hitler and every other Hitler do their genocide dance? Seriously? I really have a hard time deciding what is to be taken literally here.

2) Christ died as our sin-bearer. Now we get mystical. But the idea to begin with is crude. Back in the Old Testament, you sinned and you made a sacrifice. I suppose slaughtering a few sheep & goats was giving up valuable animals as a symbolic gift to God, it's a common thing throughout many religions. The idea of the scapegoat started here. As soon as Jesus appears, John the Baptist identifies him as a human sacrifice : "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world." So apparently, according to Stott who gets it all from St Paul, when Jesus was on the cross

The accumulated sins from the whole of human history were laid upon him… He made them his own. He took full reponsibility for them…. Our sins sent Christ to Hell. He tasted the agony of a soul alienated from God. Bearing our sins, he died our death. He endured instead of us the penalty of separation from God which our sins deserved.

So he had freed us all from the alienation from God which our sins should have brought upon us.

Reconciliation to God was available to all who would trust this Saviour for themselves and receive him as their own.

Ah, there's the catch. The unique sacrifice comes with strings, it is the genuine article but only if you're a Christian. Stott does not comment on the fate of the other two-thirds of humanity.

Stott then remarks : "This simple and wonderful account of sinbearing is strangely unpopular today." Perhaps because it's weird and incomprehensible. But he does not tell us what is the popular interpretation of the crucifixion. Which kind of leaves us dangling.

Stott winds up with an account of what it means to be a Christian, which reminds me of the old Byrds country song :

My buddies tell me that I should have waited
They say I'm missing a whole world of fun
But I still love them and I say with pride
I like the Christian life

I won't lose a friend by heeding God's call
For what is a friend who'd want you to fall
Others find pleasures in things I despise
I like the Christian life


Well, Basic Christianity is written without the paternalistic smugness of C S Lewis' Mere Christianity, but I really feel it might possibly have been a half-way decent account if a non-Christian had been along for the ride, interrogating John Stott a little more thoroughly than he interrogates himself. A little too mystical-twistical in the middle and far too Pol-pottish at the end.
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Comments (showing 1-50 of 58) (58 new)


message 1: by Mike (new)

Mike Puma Which Byrds' song was that? I always prefered 8 Miles High.


Paul Bryant it's from Sweetheart of the Rodeo - the country album where they got Gram parsons in briefly - I love it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va1kwz...


message 3: by Mike (new)

Mike Puma Paul wrote: "it's from Sweetheart of the Rodeo - the country album where they got Gram parsons in briefly - I love it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va1kwz..."


Nice. Thanks.


message 4: by Simon (new)

Simon "The mission : to find a book explaining Christian belief which makes the least bit of sense."

By "which makes the least bit of sense" do you mean, a book which makes sense in what it says about Christianity (even if it is critical and points out all the absurdities in the religion)? Or do you mean a book which makes sense of Christianity? If the latter (which I suspect) then your mission seems truly Quixotic. Religion has mystery at its core.


Paul Bryant the former of the two will do for me.... suggestions welcome.


message 6: by Simon (new)

Simon The essays "The Reconstruction of Christian Belief" and "The Essence of Christianity" by John Hick (in his volume _God and the Universe of Faiths_) seem pretty good. And I remember, years ago, being very struck by Rudolf Bultman's _History and Eschatology_ (and there are some other, more general things by him, which I bought but never read). These are all along the lines of the second task, but of the de-mystifying variety.


Paul Bryant hey Steve, great suggestions - would never have thought of the current Pope in a thousand years!


message 8: by Jane (new) - added it

Jane Stott is definitely more for the (beginner?) Christian than the sceptic. I'd like to see you tackle Love Wins by Rob Bell, which presents a very interesting take on the whole heaven-and-hell issue. It falls slightly outside evangelical orthodoxy and has met with disapproval, but for that very reason a sceptic might find something in it.


Paul Bryant well, the thing is that I am a beginner with Christianity, even though i was brought up as one - I have no idea what it means to say that Jesus dies for th sins of mankind, no idea why Christians make the Crucifixion the central fact, no idea what salvation is supposed to be - is the entire universe just a giant machine where God makes souls and distributes them around into bodies and waits to see which ones whill run through the maze correctly and be saved and which ones will fall into the many traps and be cast into the eternal fire ? It seems a crazy point of view. I need an intelligent guide to all these strange and complicated ideas.


message 10: by Pete (new)

Pete daPixie (I am a beginner with Christianity.)
I thought you told me you studied Theology at Uni?

Anyway...have you tried closertotruth.com for an intelligent guide to lots of strange and complicated ideas.


message 11: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant yes I did Pete - I can tell you all about third century Christology but that was a long time ago now. Looking for something more up to date.


message 12: by Kerrie (new)

Kerrie I enjoyed your review, and have been off-and-on dabbling in basic religion books trying to get some kind of insight into why people believe what sounds like utter nonsense. I wasn't raised religious (nor was I raised "atheist" so to speak). The God question played no role at all in my upbringing, so over the last 30 years through my own observations I have arrived at the status of non-believer. All religions sound like crazy talk to me, but it doesn't stop me from trying to figure out why people believe it. I'll be checking out the books mentioned in this thread - they sound like some interesting reads.


message 13: by Traveller (last edited Mar 07, 2012 01:05PM) (new)

Traveller Kerrie wrote: "I enjoyed your review, and have been off-and-on dabbling in basic religion books trying to get some kind of insight into why people believe what sounds like utter nonsense. I wasn't raised religiou..."

Well, I've thought about it a lot, and I've thought of the following:I can see and understand why people need religion; they need something spiritual to inspire them, they need a place where they can express their sense of awe at the universe and of Being, and they need some authority to affirm a moral code for them.

Also, I guess it makes them feel safe to have a kind of omniscient, omnipotent parent figure hovering over them, and I think organized religion gives people a sense of belonging, especially if they don't have any family.

I'm guessing, I'm not saying these -are- the reasons for all Christians, but I imagine there must be some of the reasons in there.

All this I can understand and agree with, and it makes some sense; also the fact that rituals are important to humans, and that churches act as social clubs and give people a sense of belonging.

What I cannot understand, is why people would have developed a religion so messy and so convoluted. Like I said in the other thread; if people would just have ditched the trinity idea and the old testament, and simply stuck to the teachings of Christ the way that followers of Bhudda stick to his teachings - as a way of life.

Even the basic tenets of Hinduism makes more sense to me than the idea that there was some being up there in the sky, who felt bored one day and decided to create a cosmos, with teeny little beings on it that somehow resembled (Note, this being is specifically male even though he doesn't have anyone to mate with - so why does he need to be gendered?) Him, and then he actually talked to these little beings in some way, although he is spirit and doesn't have a mouth (Telepathy?) and he put them in a lovely garden, into which he also placed a trap for them; into which they stepped, of course, and then he was angry with them even though he knew that they would step into the trap - (He had made them in his own image, so if they are in His image, why are they such worms?) and so, in his rage, he punished them and made them bear burdens for evermore.

Then he went off to do something else for a while, and by the time Abraham was born, he suddenly remembered about humans, and he picked one specific tribe out of them all, and decided to make this tribe be his personal protégés- and he would use this specific tribe to wipe out all the other tribes around them.

And then one day, he decides that he's had enough of these humans, he is going to get rid of all of them and all the thousands of species of animals and insects and birds on earth, via flooding the entire planet.

He will save a pair of each species so that he won't have to start all over making them. Why? Why couldn't he just have made them all over again the way he made them all in one day's time? So he picks a person and his wife out of his pet tribe, and orders him to build a boat so large, that it would house a pair of all the insects and birds and animals (which, apparently included a pair of each type of dinosaur as well. )

Now, the largest dinosaurs we know about weighed in at around 100 tonnes, and were 450 foot from nose to tail. Just to create an idea of scale: Roman galleys from around the time of Christ were usually only around 40 foot long, and Norse ships from the 11th century were only around 160 foot long, a brigantine from the 17th century was about 88ft.

Oh, sigh. So it goes on. Let me stop here.


message 14: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant ha, this would be a great review of the Bible if you would like to continue it...


message 15: by Traveller (new)

Traveller Paul wrote: "ha, this would be a great review of the Bible if you would like to continue it..."

You talking about my post above? Hmm, that is an idea.. but it's rather tiring, I tell ya!


message 16: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant oh yes, I understand that you either "get" this stuff or you don't. But someone surely in 1000 years has been able to explain the meaning of the Crucifixion better than CL Lewis or Mr Stott. Surely. You would think.


message 17: by Traveller (new)

Traveller Steve wrote: "One thing I have to say about both threads, and the books they discuss, is that I'm not sure you can read your way into it. At some point there's a jumping off point -- or not."

Well, if one is trying...what else is a person to do? So, if you can't understand it, if it keeps not fitting into the bigger picture for one, does it mean that you'll go to hell?

Are there people who are not redeemable, even if they try to "get" it, but they don't manage to? I once heard a Christian preacher say that you as a human cannot get yourself saved; that God has to do it. Does this mean that if one cannot understand Christianity that God hasn't picked you?

That would feel a bit unfair to me, because my life is as moral as any Christian's, if not probably even more than some.
Also, I can fully identify myself with Christ's love and compassion.

I just can't immerse myself in the totality of Christian doctrine and say that I believe the Bible should be interpreted literally as the pristine word of God.

Then I would be lying, and striving to be as honest as possible is part of my moral code.


message 18: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant This is an interesting point - suppose I want to have faith in Christianity. But i just don't believe it! I can't change that. I either have faith or I don't Like love - you can't make yourself love a person you don't love. So i'm done for, because I could not believe. That's a bit harsh isn't it?


message 19: by Judi (new)

Judi Geez. Of late I have given up on all the "isms" and now my doubts about Christianity have been confirmed by Paul's review. I think I shall crawl off under my bed with a flask of Maker's Mark and read Southern Gothic fiction til hell freezes over or whatever comes to pass.


message 20: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant If I can bring but one person closer to complete confusion I shall consider all my reviewing worthwhile!


message 21: by Jane (new) - added it

Jane Another recommendation: The Mosaic of Christian Belief by Roger E Olson is a pretty good roundup of how Christian doctrine has developed over the centuries.

To the commenter who wondered why we believe: I was a contented agnostic for half my life, but I started feeling I couldn't stay on the fence any longer. I would either have to accept Christ and live with the inevitable doubts that I was wrong about the whole thing, or reject Christian belief and live with the doubts that it might all be true.

I chose the former - bit of a Pascal's wager but despite the fact that it's bloody hard work (there is NOTHING soft, fluffy or safe about being a committed Christian) I much prefer my life on this side of the decision.


message 22: by Judi (new)

Judi Paul wrote: "If I can bring but one person closer to complete confusion I shall consider all my reviewing worthwhile!"

I'm pretty much there Paul.


message 23: by Traveller (new)

Traveller Jane wrote: "Another recommendation: The Mosaic of Christian Belief by Roger E Olson is a pretty good roundup of how Christian doctrine has developed over the centuries.

To the commenter who wondered why we be..."


Thanks for the input. If I may ask, in which ways did your life get harder? I've tried very hard in the past, (my grandmother was very religious; - a Presbyterian) and I've been to several different denominations and churches with friends, from the Catholic church (whose rituals I see as very comforting) through to Baptists and other charismatic churches where I felt extremely uncomfortable and out of place.

I even joined a sect that explained everything in the Bible from a scientifically acceptable POV, but even that started feeling too weird and improbable for me after a while.

The strangest thing is that I liked the formal, quiet ritualistic atmosphere of the Catholic church the most, it felt the most dignified. It's just their doctrine that is unfortunately a problem for me.


message 24: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant Hi Jane - so here's the thing - for a long time you were thinking well, I don't know if this stuff is true, maybe it is, maybe not. then you decided to jump off the fence. It doesn't sound like you had a Damascene experience so what is the nature of your belief now (if I may ask such a personal question, tell me to shove off if you wish!) - i.e. do you say well, I now believe this stuff is true where as before I wasn't sure at all, or are you still thinking well, it may be true or not, but I'm going to live by the Christian rules and assert its truth anyway...?


message 25: by Traveller (new)

Traveller You know, visiting a church is probably one of the biggest problems I have with Christianity. I just end up getting angry with the twisted, non-sense rhetoric that I hear from the pulpit, and I end up having (if I get the opportunity) discussions with the pastor/preacher that doesn't end well either way ....

If it is all done in Latin, preferably in that sing-song tone that the Catholics can do so well, at least i don't know what they're saying and i enjoy the grandeur of it all.


message 26: by Kate (new)

Kate Brilliant. Especially the "sez you!" section.

AFter Mark Twain's "Letters from the Earth" I don't think there's any explanation of Christianity (aside from love and charity) that makes any sense to me.

Coincidentally, my brother Victor Styrsky has published a book by the same title ("Honest to God." The subtitle is "Questions Zionists Confront/ 10 Questions Jews Need Answered.") My brother is an incredibly charming person and a wonderful speaker. I hope that someday he will publish a book of personal anecdotes along the lines of Robert Fulgham. Religious/political arguments make me sad.


message 27: by Jane (new) - added it

Jane The nature of my belief is committed. I study the Bible, go to church regularly (and YES, Traveller, one of the hardest (as well as one of the best) aspects of it all is church), am a bit stuck on developing a prayer life but keep trying.

I try to "live by the Christian rules" although of course the "rules" vary by denomination, some being core rules like actually doing what the Bible says and others not. Basically, I try to run my thoughts & decisions through a biblical filter. There are always some sticking points, such as homosexuality (I have several gay friends and love them all) and other topics that are hot-button in the States.

But above all I try to stick to the things Jesus said were most important, which are love God and love your neighbor as yourself. That includes my gay neighbors, my Muslim neighbors and my atheist neighbors. It's a challenging way to live your life but it works for me.


message 28: by Kate (new)

Kate Paul wrote: "This is an interesting point - suppose I want to have faith in Christianity. But i just don't believe it! I can't change that. I either have faith or I don't Like love - you can't make yourself lov..."
When I was in my early 20s, my parents and sibling became born-again and I didn't. They all seemed so much happier with their lives than I did with mine. And I felt sadly excluded. One Sunday when I attended church with them I decided that I would really really try to set aside my doubts and open my heart to God. And then the pastor preached a sermon all about how Everything is Eve's Fault. He added some little details that were not stated in Genesis: "When Adam ate the fruit, he was just being a good husband." I was more than a little of a feminist back then, and I took this message as a clear sign. Turn back, O Woman. And I did.


message 29: by Traveller (last edited Mar 08, 2012 09:36AM) (new)

Traveller Jane wrote: But above all I try to stick to the things Jesus said were most important, which are love God and love your neighbor as yourself. That includes my gay neighbors, my Muslim neighbors and my atheist neighbors. It's a challenging way to live your life but it works for me.
..."


Yes, that is the most important thing, isn't it? I sincerely wish all of Christianity held fast to that credo.. Although i wish all Christians focused on that, it is heartening to see that at least some of them such as yourself, do. :)

As a humanist universalist, this is my credo too, and I personally don't usually find it challenging just because other people are different, but I do start finding it difficult when individuals hurt other individuals, either because of their ideology or simply personal reasons. I cannot help taking issue against bigotry, and when people are hostile per se to those of differing sex, race, ethnicity, religious belief or spirituality, nationality, language and sexual orientation.

We are all just human, and one of the greatest messages from Jesus was tolerance and a live-and-let-live attitude. He asked people to let go of hatred and pettiness. My sincerest wish for this earth would be that all Christians (and in fact all humans) will take up this message and crush it to their bosoms and embrace it.

If only all people could live up to that, this old earth would be such a better place.


message 30: by Paul (last edited Mar 08, 2012 10:49AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant I want to thank you all for these very interesting comments, where else could I converse with such people about such stuff...

what i take from Christianity is beautiful music, which can be sophisticated and sublime, or as raw as a broken heart - like this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPCDn...


message 31: by Traveller (new)

Traveller Paul wrote: "I want to thank you all for these very interesting comments, where else could I converse with such people about such stuff...

what i take from Christianity is beautiful music, which can be soph..."


You know, to me one of the most beautiful songs can be Amazing Grace if it is sung well. ..and there is indeed much beautiful and moving music, (such as that of Handel) written inspired by religious feeling.
The song you linked to is indeed moving; I love the "Eastern" slant to it. I like that the one song leader is kanga-ing a baby. It's.. poignant somehow.

I think people who can believe sincerely and with passion like this are lucky; though i think you and i can understand that passion for life and the mysteriousness and awe of it without having to put a religious handle on it, if I've understood some of your previous posts correctly.

I can feel with these people, even if i don't necessarily share their exact beliefs. Maybe that is what some of the Christians are talking about that they cannot quite express in words.

There's an awesomeness in life that they find it good in expressing via love and praise for whatever it is (that they call God) that caused this glorious circumstance, in all of it's darkness and light, that we call Life.


message 32: by Jane (new) - added it

Jane Kate wrote: "And then the pastor preached a sermon..."

I have often had occasion to say it: the biggest problem that Christians have is other Christians. It's frequently easier for me to relate to secular people pursuing the paths of love, forgiveness, etc. without putting a religious slant on things, than to Christian friends who exhibit judgmental attitudes. But I see so much good in the Christian community too, and am grateful for those friends in my life who are really doing things right because of their faith.

For myself, even though I screw up way more often than I'd like, I can definitely say I've improved as a human being through faith. Looking back, I hope I'm more patient, more generous and less judgmental than I used to be. (And more aware of pride so I feel a bit uncomfortable writing that!) Whether all this will lead to some kind of heavenly reward is almost moot at this point, because my here and now is so much easier to deal with than it once was.

And sacred music (as opposed to the often trite worship songs at church; alas, that's one thing that hasn't improved over time) is indeed an incredible way to express the inexpressible. Maybe that's why Christians don't do a good job of relating to non-Christians; they know what they feel but the only verbal vehicle for expressing it is Christianese that's only comprehensible to other believers.

And Paul, let us know when you intend to begin reading Honest to God and I will read along. I too would love to find a book I can put in a non-believer's hand and say "this is it, this is what I mean."


message 33: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant I'm reading it right now actually, but i kind of thought I'd stick it on the back burner for a week because if I write another long review about Christianity you'll all be completely fed up of me banging on and on. However, it seems to me that there is something to be said about a whole strand of what you may call de-mythologised Christianity which takes in Bonhoeffer, Tillich and Bultmann, and which Honest to God was trying to summarise and popularise. I think, but I need more info, that this demythologised version of Christianity has been almost forgotten in the upsurge of a type of Christianity from the other fundamentalist wing. So yes, this will be my new thing. (But I must also read the Mosaic book mentioned above, that looks v interesting.)


message 34: by Jane (new) - added it

Jane Well, that week should give me time to purchase the book (not available in my library) and catch up...


message 35: by Steve (new)

Steve Here's a different version of the song Paul put up. (I have the album.) I actually saw these guys at the Haysi fair, in Virginia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu9Kjx...


message 36: by Steve (new)

Steve This morning I wrote a long response to Traveller's post above, but then nuked it because I thought it was too much information. But Jane has pretty much covered the same ground. I will say that I wasn't always a believer, and came to it in my 30s. I will also say that it's a day to day, and sometime an hour by hour thing. But I do believe Jesus raised the dead, etc., and rose from the dead. Christian doctrine however wears me out, especially so, it seems, as I get older. There's this drive to define what can't be defined.

Anyway, Traveller mentioned the beauty of a Catholic mass in Latin. My background is R.C. (but not cradle), and I can tell you that if you know of a church that's doing that (outside of Rome or a special event) you will be running into a pretty doctrinaire crowd. That said, it is beautiful, but I believe it's surpassed by the Divine Liturgy in the Orthodox Church.

One last thing. Traveller mentioned, I think, the outsider, the seeker. I truly believe these are the people Jesus wants most. A good book worth checking out for those who feel on the "outside" of belief, would be Simone Weil's
Waiting for God.


message 37: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant thanks for that version Steve.

Here's another Sacred Harp gem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcj4Sz...


message 38: by Steve (new)

Steve Thanks, Paul. I'm starting to think I have this album. I think this is something I picked up after the movie, Cold Mountain, came out. (Back when the late Borders had an impressive collection of cds.) It's called Rivers of Delight, by the Word of Mouth Chorus. I just dug it out. I'm going to listen to it tomorrow.


message 39: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant yep, that's the one, I have it on cd - many beautiful hymns on that which is a kind of polite version of sacred harp.


message 40: by Judi (new)

Judi Beautiful.


message 41: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant Thanks Brian & Judi - but I do have a profoundly poetic streak, you know! - you've just been reading my hard-nosed investigative reviews. So .... you may like the first paragraph of this one here:

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...


message 42: by Judi (new)

Judi I do.


message 43: by Traveller (last edited Mar 15, 2012 09:38AM) (new)

Traveller Steve wrote: "This morning I wrote a long response to Traveller's post above, but then nuked it because I thought it was too much information. But Jane has pretty much covered the same ground. I will say that I ..."

Hi, I only saw your post now. Although I come from a Protestant background, something about RCism 'speaks' to me. Perhaps I see more "grandeur" in it than if I'd been raised in it.

Yes, most of my attendances to a RC church have been special occasions, though I did have a RC friend whom I sometimes visited mass with. (Not sure if you'd count mass as a special occasion?)

Also, I generally adore their music.


message 44: by Traveller (last edited Mar 15, 2012 12:47PM) (new)

Traveller Talking of inspiring music.. I really take my hat off to the Japanese.. in this awe inspiring video from Osaka, Japan, a 10,000 member choir performs Beethoven’s “Ode to Joy." Concert was dedicated to tsunami victims.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/paH0V6JLxSI

This performance is a tribute to the human spirit and brought tears to my eyes.


message 45: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant that is downright awesome.... here's another somewhat more humble tribute to the human spirit - I know, i probably peddled this link before, but in case you haven't seen it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us-TVg...


message 46: by Traveller (new)

Traveller What a pity that Paul didn't decide to rather review a another CS Lewis book, Surprised by Joy

In it, Lewis writes about this feeling of awe that some link to religion, (which we're here exploring through music) and which pushed Lewis himself to keep hammering at the problems he had with Christianity until he managed to find a model of the religion that he felt congruent with.

To some extent he was talking about the thing that Paul described as: "I think our chief claim to nobility is that we are still able to create love and art and music in the middle of this charnelhouse planet and in the face of our knowledge of the tiny spoonful of life we are able to live here, and that even in the middle of death, we live furiously and horribly and sadly and brilliantly, howling with laughter through the river of tears, and weeping at weddings and cheap pop songs."


message 47: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant well, it was Mere Christianity which had the bi rep. But now I'm grooving with Timothy Keller - review of The Reason for God in a day or so.


message 48: by Traveller (new)

Traveller Paul wrote: "well, it was Mere Christianity which had the bi rep. But now I'm grooving with Timothy Keller - review of The Reason for God in a day or so."

Well, I admire your staying power. I couldn't read so many books on the same topic all in a row.. :P

Anyway, will be looking forward... :)


message 49: by Paul (new) - rated it 2 stars

Paul Bryant well, I suddenly became keen to find a good modern book explaining Christianity, possibly because I was so mean to old C S Lewis. And also, it's fascinating stuff.


message 50: by Rakhi (new)

Rakhi Dalal Bird Brian wrote: "Paul wrote: "I think our chief claim to nobility is that we are still able to create love and art and music in the middle of this charnelhouse planet and in the face of our knowledge of the tiny sp..."

I second Brian's opinion. These are some good lines which surely touched. A great review Paul!

I also liked- My motive for not joining the charity half-marathon in support of cancer research is also not laziness, it's to avoid being tempted into smugness and Pharisaic self-regard if I had done it!


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