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benebean's Reviews > Purpose in Prayer
Purpose in Prayer
by
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benebean's review
bookshelves: nonfiction, philosophy-religion, could-recommend, medium
Aug 21, 2011
bookshelves: nonfiction, philosophy-religion, could-recommend, medium
*deep sighs* books like these along with most devotional books drive me crazy, not because I think there's definitely something wrong, but because I'm not sure if what it's saying is right. In this instance my frustration is compounded because the way one tells if something is true or not is if it had Biblical support. But the reason I'm reading this book is because I'm not deeply familiar with/understanding of all the scripture dealing with prayer, so when it asserts things without showing me the scriptural support, I'm likely lost, wondering if what it purports is true or not.
examples of things I'm not sure about:
1) "Prayer, in one phase of its operation, is a disinfectant and a preventive. It purifies the air; it destroys the contagion of evil."
This is a nice notion, but I'm unaware of scriptural proof of it. I openly confess that I don't know all the scriptures regarding prayer (hence the reason for reading a book like this). But I'm disappointed to often not find scriptural support cited.
2) "The prayers of God's saints are the capital stock in heaven by which Christ carries on His great work upon earth. The great throes and mighty convulsions on earth are the results of these prayers. Earth is changed, revolutionised, angels move on more powerful, more rapid wing, and God's policy is shaped as the prayers are more numerous, more efficient."
Again, this is a nice notion, but I'm looking for Biblical support for it. He seems to cite a lot of testimonies of Christians in lieu of Biblical support for statements. I think testimonies are definitely helpful, but I'm hesitant/opposed to making assertions about the details of how the spiritual world works without support from scripture.
3) "It is true that the mightiest successes that come to God's cause are created and carried on by prayer. God's day of power; the angelic days of activity and power are when God's Church comes into its mightiest inheritance of mightiest faith and mightiest prayer. God's conquering days are when the saints have given themselves to mightiest prayer. When God's house on earth is a house of prayer, then God's house in heaven is busy and all potent in its plans and movements, then His earthly armies are clothed with the triumphs and spoils of victory and His enemies defeated on every hand."
Again, I was missing scriptural support/citation for this. There were numerous other examples where the author made statements about prayer that I really wasn't sure were supported by scripture and would have liked citations, but I'll stop listing them here. I think as the book went on there were fewer unsupported statements.
So overall, I really loved the parts of the book where he backed up what he said with Biblical citations. I was uncomfortable with many of the parts where he spoke forcefully without Biblical support. Also, sometimes he seemed to cite scripture like this apostle was able to work a miracle when he prayed therefore we should be able to work miracles through prayer as well--- which I think can be a misuse of the text seeing as the apostles were given special power by Jesus-- I suppose it's a great point of debate about whether saints today can "wield" the same power. All in all I still felt that my understanding grew and I was edified by listening to this book, so with that in mind this is going to get a very shaky 3 stars and recommendation with lots of bright warning flags attached.
examples of things I'm not sure about:
1) "Prayer, in one phase of its operation, is a disinfectant and a preventive. It purifies the air; it destroys the contagion of evil."
This is a nice notion, but I'm unaware of scriptural proof of it. I openly confess that I don't know all the scriptures regarding prayer (hence the reason for reading a book like this). But I'm disappointed to often not find scriptural support cited.
2) "The prayers of God's saints are the capital stock in heaven by which Christ carries on His great work upon earth. The great throes and mighty convulsions on earth are the results of these prayers. Earth is changed, revolutionised, angels move on more powerful, more rapid wing, and God's policy is shaped as the prayers are more numerous, more efficient."
Again, this is a nice notion, but I'm looking for Biblical support for it. He seems to cite a lot of testimonies of Christians in lieu of Biblical support for statements. I think testimonies are definitely helpful, but I'm hesitant/opposed to making assertions about the details of how the spiritual world works without support from scripture.
3) "It is true that the mightiest successes that come to God's cause are created and carried on by prayer. God's day of power; the angelic days of activity and power are when God's Church comes into its mightiest inheritance of mightiest faith and mightiest prayer. God's conquering days are when the saints have given themselves to mightiest prayer. When God's house on earth is a house of prayer, then God's house in heaven is busy and all potent in its plans and movements, then His earthly armies are clothed with the triumphs and spoils of victory and His enemies defeated on every hand."
Again, I was missing scriptural support/citation for this. There were numerous other examples where the author made statements about prayer that I really wasn't sure were supported by scripture and would have liked citations, but I'll stop listing them here. I think as the book went on there were fewer unsupported statements.
So overall, I really loved the parts of the book where he backed up what he said with Biblical citations. I was uncomfortable with many of the parts where he spoke forcefully without Biblical support. Also, sometimes he seemed to cite scripture like this apostle was able to work a miracle when he prayed therefore we should be able to work miracles through prayer as well--- which I think can be a misuse of the text seeing as the apostles were given special power by Jesus-- I suppose it's a great point of debate about whether saints today can "wield" the same power. All in all I still felt that my understanding grew and I was edified by listening to this book, so with that in mind this is going to get a very shaky 3 stars and recommendation with lots of bright warning flags attached.
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Reading Progress
August 21, 2011
– Shelved
August 21, 2011
– Shelved as:
nonfiction
August 21, 2011
– Shelved as:
philosophy-religion
Started Reading
August 25, 2011
– Shelved as:
could-recommend
August 25, 2011
– Shelved as:
medium
August 25, 2011
–
Finished Reading
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by
Amy
(new)
Jan 09, 2018 04:24AM
Thank you for such a detailed, honest, review. I’m currently reading this book myself and have had many of the same thoughts! I’m curious if you know of any other books on prayer that you could recommend more highly than this one?
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Amy wrote: "Thank you for such a detailed, honest, review. I’m currently reading this book myself and have had many of the same thoughts! I’m curious if you know of any other books on prayer that you could rec..."Thanks Amy! Sadly, I haven't come across one that has magically helped me understand prayer. Maybe the best one is Prayer: Experiencing Awe and Intimacy with God. I'm generally a big fan of most of Timothy Keller's work. Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Do let me know if you find any good books on prayer :)
It seems like your criticisms basically amount to the fact that Bounds’ theology is robustly Wesleyan.
Luke wrote: "It seems like your criticisms basically amount to the fact that Bounds’ theology is robustly Wesleyan."haha I'm not really familiar with Wesleyan theology so perhaps this is true. I am a stickler for wanting scriptural proof for whatever theology is asserted. Otherwise, I find people can espouse all sorts of notions to God which may or may not be true.
It is admittedly annoying that Bounds doesn't just mention scripture more specifically. Like, why not cite it?I don't post this to argue. In good faith, I hope these references help bolster Bounds' -mostly- scriptural view of prayer.
As for what you're looking for, I recommend reading the chapters on prayer in Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology. He writes for lay people and ministers alike, and his approach is to take everything scripture says about a topic and outline a system. It's beautiful.
[Prayer, in one phase of its operation, is a disinfectant and a preventive. It purifies the air; it destroys the contagion of evil.]
[Disinfectant]
"Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working" -Jas 5:16.
[Preventative]
"Watch and pray that you may not enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." -Mt 26:41.
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[The prayers of God's saints are the capital stock in heaven by which Christ carries on His great work upon earth.]
[Capital stock in heaven:]
"for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance" Phil 1:19
[by which Christ carries on His great work]
"At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison" - Col 4:3
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[The great throes and mighty convulsions on earth are the results of these prayers. Earth is changed]
"And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel. Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth, and there were peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake." -Rev 8:3-5
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[angels move on more powerful, more rapid wing,." (This one might be a stretch.)]
"And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying,
"Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth."
Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice,
"Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!"
And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!"
Re 5:8–13.
--------
[God's policy is shaped as the prayers are more numerous, and more efficient.]
"And the LORD said to Moses, "I have seen this people, and behold, it is a stiff-necked people. Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them, in order that I may make a great nation of you."
But Moses implored the LORD his God and said, "O LORD, why does your wrath burn hot against your people, whom you have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians say, 'With evil intent did he bring them out, to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth'? Turn from your burning anger and relent from this disaster against your people" -Ex 32:9–12.
I'll stop there because I'm out of time.
Thanks for the prooftexts and recommendations. I love how you use the word "mostly." It's been forever since I read the book but looking over my review I think I'd agree with your assessment. I did actually read at least part of Grudem's systematic theology a while ago. I liked it for the most part but I might have stopped when I got to his escatology. Now mind you I think everyone goes at least a tad whackadoodle when trying to make definitive statements about escatology, which is why most pastors who "bravely" venture into Revelations stop after the first 3(?) chapters. But I digress, it did launch me into a phase where I listened to lots of systematic theology. I'm not sure it helped me much with prayer. This isn't a judgement on the material but probably lack of ability on my part to use it properly given that everyone else seemed to find it helpful and I'm sort of left wondering what I'm missing.
I did finally find a book I found helpful. The Practice of the Presence of God 2014 combined with more scripture memorization did start to make verses like:
"When you walk, they will guide you;
When you sleep, they will watch over you;
And when you awake, they will talk to you"
- Proverbs 6:22
become more real to me and bring more meaning to my prayer life. But as ever I'm still muddling through trying to learn. :)
Lol, yes. After I posted the comment, I saw how old the review was. I chuckled.
