Dave’s Comments (group member since May 24, 2014)

Dave’s comments from the Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 group.

Sunny wrote ""...these exceptional creatures whom we commiserate are a vast crowd, as we shall see in the course of this work, for a reason which will be disclosed only at the end of it..." I wonder if..."

First, glad you're here Sunny, I was concerned you had quit posting.

You make a good point about why folks reread. Stephen not long ago (who was reading The Captive) said he was beginning to suspect we were dealing with an "unreliable narrator". that is a literary term that can be looked up on Wikipeadia. I find the narrator's claim to know nothing of Charlus' "inclinations" to be highly suspect. Proust in so many ways shows a piercing analysis of human behavior and for his 20+ year old narrator to be "shocked, shocked! to find that there are homosexuals in Paris" seems highly suspect. In fact, I find a lot of the narrator's soliloquy here highly self-serving.

Lol, sounds like a plan! However my wife will come back eventually and I won't be able to lounge around reading all day.

The opening was a struggle, like Swan's Way, but it picked up and became very good. I just finished it.

Renato wrote: "Wow, at least 41% of The Captive takes place in one day? Is it a very long dinner party? Haha!"

I went back through the first section of The Captive reviewing the time clues. I can state with confidence my opinion that 60% of that volume occurs on one day. It was a bright, sunny day in February, 1906. I think the day of the week can be determined too, but I'm not going to look for that now.

A social event does occur Renanto.

Well, the email for Dr Mark Calkins is not found. Has he left San Francisco State Marcelita?

Marcelita, I reviewed the sight, lots of interesting info but no spoilers for me. I couldn't make heads or tails of much of it. However, I do have questions about Dr Calkins' chronology at the bottom. (which he has thoughtfully provided way for feedback)

I'm almost finished with The Captive, I don't think what I'm going to write is spoilers but does talk about technology that appears in the narrative and a historical event linked to the narrative.

The webmaster has The Captive/ Fugitive as 1900-1902. I believe that is 5 years too early for the following reasons.
- In S&G the narrator speaks rapturously of an "aeroplane" that flys over. He knows about them but has never seen one. The Wright Brothers achieved their first powered flight in December 1903. It would take at least a two or three year span to have them flying around France (an airplane enthusiast can figure this out).
- In S&G the transition to automobiles is well underway. Characters ride around in them but more importantly, automobile infrastructure is well advanced. There are roads all over the countryside, mechanics and chauffeurs for hire, even in smaller towns, etc. The automobile is no longer a curiosity or rich-man's toy. Again, an auto enthusiast can look this up.
- 41% of The Captive (at least) occurs on one day. At the end of that day the narrator says "at this same time there occurred a diplomatic incident" and mentions "Delcasse" by name, speaks of his anti-german sentiment which lead to his resignation as Foreign Minister. In Wikipeadia the article on Theophile Delcasse says that his anti-german sentiment caused a diplomatic incident with Germany that ended with his resignation as Foreign Minister in "early 1906".
- The Captive occurs in winter (coats are put on and off, almost all narrated events are indoors). During the long day in The Captives, girls are observed outdoors "taking advantage of the sunshine" with a reference to the brightness being unusual on "these February days."
- There is reference to events in S&G as occurring "last summer", which would be 1905 based on Delcasse timestamp.

I realize Proust was writing a massive novel with lots to keep track of and may have misplaced these type things or used artistic license. But he was a genius and I'm cautious about deciding a genius has made a mistake.

Yes that is very sad, thank you.

Thanks again Marcelita, you are a treasure!

Jonathan wrote "only finished Life and Fate yesterday ". Added Life and Fate to my Amazon Wish List. Thank you Jonathan, I had never heard of it.

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "You should publish a coffe table book Renato - "Proust's Posies"!"

I did a quick search and apparently there isn't a book like that, haha! That's surprising!"

I'd buy a copy. Or you could do a website and Marcelita could send future Proust Groups your link!

Jonathan wrote: "Re: times & dates. In an earlier post I mentioned that it was mentioned at the Guermantes shindig that King Edward was mentioned. This means that Queen Victoria was dead, i.e. 1901 or after. This d..."

Yes, I remember now you mentioned that Jonathan, I had read it and not considered the time placement it implied.

The time displacement may be accounted for by the fact that the whole book is a reflection on past events. The author "steps into" the narrative to speak to the reader more and more as the novel progresses.

Renato wrote "Plus I always stop to do some research on the things he mentions and I’ve never heard about - I, for one, never knew flowers’ names aside from roses and daisies. So I’m always coming back after I saw (I’m very visual) what he meant and re-read those parts to fully ‘get’ them. "

You should publish a coffe table book Renato - "Proust's Posies"!

Here is another example of different reading styles. I too come across things I want to look up but I find stopping to look things up too intrusive. Instead I highlight the item and come back later. I have looked up several flowers.

I might well drift off listening to Audiobooks if I was not actively reading the text at the same time. Before I "discovered" my current method,my only experience with Audiobooks was in the car, which I didn't care for. I considered Jonathan's comment that he would find in intrusive (correct me if I'm misquoting Jonathan) and why that wasn't so with me? Actually it is just the opposite for me. Its like reading a book with "surround-sound" or "Cinemascope" it is just so much richer an experience. Telling stories and professional storytellers were around since the Neolithic Age up until literacy was widespread (100-200 years ago?) In the US now professional storytellers are making a comeback and forming guilds (beyond book narrators). The good narrators don't just read the book, they dramatize it with a different voices and sounds (laughter, coughing, etc. Some audiobooks use multiple narrators. I can set the iPad down and go to the refrigerator while still listening and know exactly who is talking from the voices.

This must be a growing experience because Amazon owns Audible and they offer the Audiobook at steep discount when you buy the ebook. You can go to Audible.com and browse and listen to samples. For you there is an added advantage. My wife is an English as a second language teacher and she has noted how much her students would get out of it.

I'm not familiar with the Kindle Paperwhite, but perhaps it offers different types of highlighting like double lines etc. No, the underlining is not distracting. I use it often when I read ebooks. I never underlined hardcopy books. When I shift my eyes on the page I am still listening to the narrator. Its like keyboarding, with practice you get very fast without conscious effort. The brain can do a lot more than we usually let it if we learned to "let go." I can't remember using four colors before. I've just developed it as I went along and realized there was different types of info I wanted to keep track of. All notes and highlights can be reviewed and searched.

In Captive events at end of S&G were referred to as "last summer", There was a stated two year break between Swann's Way and Budding Grove. I'm uncertain of break between Budding Grove & Guermantes Way. S&G begins same day as GW ends. Somewhere (I think in S&G) the narrator muses about the turn of the Century. My rough estimate is no more than 10 years have past since beginning to where I am now. And "now" is 1901-1903. There are technology references and Dreyfus references in S &G that may allow you or Jonathan to more closely calculate the date if you're interested. Its all closely analyzed in refernce books etc. I'm sure, but I'd rather try to sort it out from the text.

Anyway, I just came to another person pointing out Charlus in a crowd as "the stout gentleman with white hair and a moustache"

Jonathan wrote: "I find the comments on each person's reading style fascinating as I think it's crucial for certain books. I read Ulysses last year, and I'd tried it before and failed, but once I found a method of ..."

Good points Jonathan, I may get back to you on how you tackled Ulysses. Its on my "to do" list but I've decided to tackle Don Quixote as my next "big book" project.

I enjoy hearing about the methods people use to read literature. It does require "work but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

There may be a Proustian connection to my love of listening to Audio Books. Both my grandmothers read to me and I have always counted those as some of my best childhood memories. Finding a narrator I enjoy has become as important as finding an author. I have one narrator that I'm working my way down the books he has recorded.

I wouldn't use colored highlighters if I was reading a hard copy book. But perhaps pencil underlining with colored tabs. There is too much in Proust I want to be able to find again.

Dwayne wrote: "but my sense of her is that she -- like all of the Guermantes in The Guermantes Way -- is a gossip who tells stories for effect with little regard for how they may affect others' perceptions of the subjects of the stories. "

Thanks for elaborating that Dwayne. I think your observation is right on the money! In fact, when you put it like that it dawned on me that I am the Duchesses of Guermantes! And so is everybody I know!

I had observed the same "flaws" that you do but early on in the novel I began noting that how people behaved (and how brilliantly Proust describes human conscious thought) is essentially unchanged from today. The media today is full of tragic stories of teenage suicides that are motivated by vicious and untrue gossip in social media. And it cannot be erased. If Proust's characters had Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, email and Smartphones imagine how ugly and vicious they could be! Just as well they didn't, we would be on Volume 17 and the narrator would still be in bed in Combray waiting for his mother to kiss him goodnight while he "stayed in touch on social media."

Renato, did you see my comment on Charlus' appearance back at comment 47 (I think) this discussion thread is now 2 pages long.

I am reading the ebook (.99 public domain volumes) that match the translation the Audiobook uses (Naxos Neville Jason Reader). I use a Kindle App on my iPad. It has a downloadable dictionary. So all the words Proust uses that I don't know I just tap the screen and the definition comes up. Usually don't even pause the reading.

Highlighting to me is important also in this complex a book. I have four colors immediately available and I use them as follows:
-Yellow - Passages that indicate shift in time or place. As we've gotten into the novel I notice that Proust will often say something like "We approached the door. I noticed a rose beside the door...." Then he may go off for 3-20 pages of interior monologue on something the rose triggers. So I highlight the first sentence. Then, if 16 pages later I've forgotten where "we" are I can flip back and find the most recent yellow highlight and say "Oh yeah, we are still approaching the door. I've also notice he does not use conventional paragraphing. For instance, following on the previous example, after 16 pages he will be in the middle of a long paragraph and then write "We reached the door." Then he may digress for multiple pages. But I highlight that so I update the location.
- Blue I use to highlight interesting or funny quotes or situations. I use blue a lot.
-Orange I use for character's names and titles. Usually just the first time they are introduced - in the story or when spoken about." In big social scenes I have begun highlighting names and tracking arrival and departure. My own little traveler's aid booth at the Proust Airport.
-Red Major disclosures of information about characters or plot development. Also when the author speaks directly to the reader (increasingly common in S&G and following volumes) and when the narrator or author promises additional information at a future point in the story.

The specific colors are obviously not important, but I would be completely lost if I didn't use some sort of highlighting system.

Dwayne wrote: "I am in awe of your being ahead of the reading schedule. Nice! I'm kind of a slow reader, and am especially so with Proust."

I am in awe of the folks who read ISOLT "conventionally." I've mentioned before that I tried several times and never got past page 20. I learned a while back that reading while listening to the Audiobook really gives me a big boost in understanding complex sentences etc. I don't listen to Proust in the car etc. I sit reading along as the book is read. Experiencing the words by sight and sound has an effect of the sum is greater than the parts. Comprehension and retention go way up. I don't speak french so the reader's correct pronunciation of names and places "places them in my mind"correctly. Hearing them over and over gives me a familiarity that I never got "conventionally" - I would have just been filling in some shortcut such as "the Duc de G" which for me is a big hinderance in mental visualization of characters.