Dave’s Comments (group member since May 24, 2014)

Dave’s comments from the Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 group.

I didn't pick up on this passage. I read the abstract of the paper you linked. I seem to have missed a "powershift" in the relationship referred to. I'll have to read up on that in the analysis when I've finished. I believe I understand what aspect of Albertine's personality this passage (and your remark) point to. But I'm almost half-way through The Fugitive so perhaps I have more to consider than I would have in this volume. I'll wait and comment in the next volume.

As a first time reader, the basis of my belief that she was never a captive was my observation that she was a lot stronger person than the narrator reported. Ironically he was paranoid about her deceiving him (and I felt she was deceiving him) but he never acted decisively to prove his speculation. Perhaps he really didn't want to know. He had lots of money, why not hire detectives to follow her instead of asking Andree (really bad choice) to accompany her and report back? Often the narrator would remark that he entertained friends and they never knew she was up in her room. Oh, really? If she stayed in her room when other people were in the house I just don't find it believable that she was "just following orders" more likely she had her own reasons (perhaps she was concerned about being recognized and linked to other people and places.) It remains to be read what her motives are (if they are disclosed). But I just never recall reading anything more than her "humoring" the narrator for what I assumed to be her own purposes. They both speak of "love" often. I have my own experiences with love to draw from and it is probably the most popular subject of storytelling in any form (even vampires fall in love these days). I see no semblance of love in this relationship, only self-serving manipulation to control each other.

Thanks for another great reference Marcelita. It would be a treat to be in a live discussion group. I think I made myself clear, but just to reiterate - I'm really enjoying ISOLT, but sometimes it is the joy of a puppy shaking his favorite chewtoy while growling.

Beautiful! How comforting to be able to keep such sentiments to re-read as a comfort as grief dims to loss. I really miss the time when people wrote letters to each other. I never knew anyone with a literary talent, but I have in my attic every personal letter anyone ever wrote to me since childhood.

- Personally I am very decisive in decision-making. So I found the indecision of the narrator in the last section of the volume to be very frustrating. There at the end he was changing his mind multiple times per page - keep her, dump her, keep her, dump her. That finally drove me over the edge. The third or fourth time the narrator assured himself that she couldn't leave without his knowing I knew that was what was going to happen. But I didn't want Albertine to leave without a) kicking the narrator in the groin or b) (my personal preference) to opt for the Lorena Bobbitt option. I kept saying to the book as I read, " The knives are in the kitchen Albertine, the knives are in the kitchen dear." So congratulations M. Proust, you have really pissed me off! Where do we go from here?

I found Albertine's character to be inconsistent from her portrayal as a girl in Balbec I and to a lesser degree Balbec II. I attribute this to the fact that she is portrayed in this volume as the person the narrator wants her to be rather than who she really is - a much stronger person with her own "plan". At the same time I noted that everything the narrator concluded about Albertine's sexuality was based on rumor, hearsay, and speculation. The only thing that points potentially to her sexuality: Her own story of "having to dress like a man" due to some luggage issue (I believe) when she had the chauffeur drop her in some country town so he could take the car for personal business. If memory serves me, the narrator didn't pick up on this.

I was interested in the long discussion between Brichot and Charlus of whether any of the reputed inverts in history or in society during their time had been "falsely accused." I saw a definite link to the Dreyfus case. This link continues the link between society's treatment of Jews and homosexuals which I have followed at least since the beginning of S &G.

I was struck by the contrast between the narrator/Albertine's relationship and Charlus/Charlie's relationship. Since we have a 1st person narrator who shares his own thoughts, we have a lot of information on the narrator's thoughts and feelings (which may or may not be true) which we don't have on the other characters. Basically I believe Charlus fell in "conventional " love with Charlie and the narrator's love of Albertine was really a form of self-love. My observation of Charlus is mainly based on his devastation, both short and long-term, over the break with Charlie. My observation on the narrator's relationship is more complex than I could get into here. In both cases I believe their "love" was unrequited

- So who is the Captive? For most of the volume I was convinced it was the narrator, captive of his own obsession. But by the end I had identified some other captives: Charlus- captive to his love of Charlie's, Charlie - captive to his musical ambition, first with Charlus, then with Madame Verduran. MMe. Verduran, captive to her concern for social promonence. M. Verduran, captive to his own meekness? to his wife, the little band - captive to their sense of social identity. These may or may not be valid observations, but note that these observations maintain that persons are not held captive by other persons. Proust's lesson to me is that the chains of our captivity are forged in our mind. The only person I feel certain was never a captive was Albertine, She could leave anytime she wanted as she did in the end. Why she stayed as long as she did is not disclosed in this volume.

- I was very impressed with the psychological realism of the "argument" between the narrator and Albertine. Specifically, the narrator's rage that Albertine was lying to him when with every thought he is calculating how to lie to her and with almost every line of dialogue he did lie to her. Disliking others because they reflect our own behavior or characteristics is widely recognized psychologically now and is something I have observed many times (in myself and others).

I enjoyed discovering the structure of the volume, the one long day in the middle with a single social event in the middle of that day. The previous volumes had two social events (at least the previous two volumes). I need to think about this.

Again, I'll place my thoughts and comments on "The Captive" in the "Finish" week of this volumes with the warning of SPOILERS. I have quite a bit to comment on.

Ironically, I liked this volume because it evoked from me strong negative emotions. I was very upset by what happened at the Verduran's social event to Charlus. And I felt very hostile toward the narrator by the end of this volume. Whether or not my responses were typical, I credit Proust for brilliance in writing in a way that drew me in and evoked such powerful emotions. In my opinion the mark of poor writing is an indifferent response from the reader.

I am a trained Stephen Minister Marcelita. A trained layperson who serves as caregiver for persons in various life traumas. We work a lot with the grieving and sometimes with the terminally ill. I do this through my church, I am a Methodist.

Rather than try to figure what week my comments go, I've decided to write out my S & G comments in this "finish week." I may cut and paste specific commemts into appropriate weeks as the discussion moves along.
SPOILERS
-Overall S&G has been my favorite volume for these reasons:
-- I enjoyed the Princess de Guermantes party for the reasons I stated
-- I gained at least a small degree of "getting Proust" when I sensed a middle in his waiting in bed for Albertine to come kiss him goodnight.
-- My sense of a new day and new beginnings was carried out in numerous characters and themes, beginning with the evolution of Odette into a darling of society.
-- The section on grief of grandmother's death I found very psychologically real based on my own grief and my work as a trained volunteer grief counselor. I also found how the narrator "moved on" from his grief realistic.
-- The casual treatment of Swann's death seemed strange, but Swann seems to tun into something of a ghostly presence in the narrator's life, so I'll bide my time.
-- I liked the train journeys as a method the develop characters and advance the plot. At each stop characters got on and off and various digressions or conversations take place. Since the book 1001 Arabian Nights had been introduced at a key point, I found myself wondering if Proust was modeling all the stories in the train journey with that book in mind.
-- I loved the Verduran's Dinner Party, mainly for Charlus' role in it.

Questions or issues that bother me in this volume include:
-- I don't understand the narrator's interest in visiting the Verdurans - to use Mme. Verduran's word, I see them as bores, along with their little band.
-- Charlus was developed into a very complex and to me, sympathetic character in this volume. I found him interesting as more was revealed about his background and skills. I found him very sympathertic when it was disclosed that everyone "knew" about him and talked and laughed about him behind his back.
-- I found the ending of this volume contrived. I have less and less patience with the narrator and his (to me) unbelievable relationships with women. At this point I have more sympathy for Charlus than I do for the narrator. Is this what Proust wants the reader to feel? Or have I lost my way? On to "The Captive".

Renato wrote: "Dave wrote: "Interesting. You should share a few lines in Portuguese. I'd like to copy them into my google translation and see what turns up in English. lol"

LOL that's an interesting experiment! ..."

I translated the second paragraph you sent through Babylon and this is what I got:
"But my dear friend, is that then I'll be dead for several months. According to doctors that I have seen, at the end of the year, the evil that I have, and that it could in fact lead me then, I do not fail in any case more than three or four months of life, and still is a great maximum - Swann replied smiling, while the created opened the glass door of the vestibule to pass the duchess."

Decipherable, but I think I'll stick with Scott Montcrieff's translation.

Interesting. You should share a few lines in Portuguese. I'd like to copy them into my google translation and see what turns up in English. lol

Renato wrote: "Will this finally be the Bible I can endorse? :)"

Does ISOLT have a Portuguese translation Renato? If not, that could be your calling ;)

Thanks so much Marcelita! Oh, resurrected characters! So Proust has written a new Bible! I'm finding so many quotes to highlight, someone should assign verse numbers!

Yes, things are always interesting when Charlus is in a scene, and not always for reasons of his sexuality.

I can confirm Stephen's observation, but I would caution against expecting too much of this.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Renato wrote: "I am really curious to find out what's all the fuss about the ending! But I'll stuck to the reading schedule is it is serving me well!"

I know, me too!

@Dave: I just take breaks b..."

Good! I can see your point. I joined the group in April about 5 weeks ahead and have moved further ahead. I'm in mid-October on the schedule. I've got the time and inclination to read now and I'm afraid if I break something will come up in my life that will carry me away from completion. I have dropped some comments in the threads for the week's ahead, and may do that some more. I do enjoy participating in the group, but I'm concerned that my "two volume ahead" perspective will shade all but my most innocent comment and something might be given away, or my comment just won't make any sense and I won't be able to explain why.