Ian’s review of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Harry Potter, #7) > Likes and Comments

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message 1: by mark (new)

mark monday fascinating!


message 2: by Nicola (new)

Nicola I thought the song was 'O children' by Nick Cave - I love the song, and the lyrics are beautiful.


message 3: by Lindsey (new)

Lindsey Dude, you are waaaaaay over-thinking this. First of all, there is no love triangle here—it was always Ron in Hermione. From, like, book three at least. And besides that, not everything is a coverup for Freudian sex-obsession. Normal people—kids, adults, lawyers, chefs, hobos, children's book authors—do occasionally think about other things. Just sayin.
Oh, and by the way, Nicola is right. It is "O Children"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0926084/s...


message 4: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye "Forgive us now for what we've done
It started out as a bit of fun
Here, take these before we run away
The keys to the gulag."


message 5: by Lindsey (new)

Lindsey Yeah, I have no idea what Nick Cave's lyrics are supposed to mean. Probably something deep and dark that's way over my head. I leave my argument as is.


message 6: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Nicola wrote: "I thought the song was 'O children' by Nick Cave - I love the song, and the lyrics are beautiful."

As my wife says all the time, you're right, I'm wrong.

Forgive me now for what I've done, it started out as a bit of fun.


message 7: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye There is an interesting article about how the song ended up in the film here:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music...


message 8: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye I wrote my original comments from memory about two months after I saw the film and I got the song wrong.

I wrote about "The Ship Song", because it describes love and lust and sex in a way that makes sense. Especially to adolescents.

So, sorry, I don't want to correct the error or change my review.

I'll leave it there, Hogwarts and all.

The name of the song is wrong, but the song remains the same.

Here is a link to the lyrics to "O Children":

http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/nickca...

"We're older now, the light is dim
And you are only just beginning
O children"



message 9: by Ian (last edited Mar 12, 2012 03:46PM) (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye As I've just said off-line, I hope that HP readers discover "The Ship Song":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKlaV-...

and "Into My Arms":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FG0-cn...

They're both beautiful love songs, in the gospel tradition, about the fullness of life.

The featured artists on this show were three of my favourite writers, John Cale, Nick Cave & Chrissie Hynde.


message 10: by Traveller (last edited Mar 13, 2012 01:27AM) (new)

Traveller FWIW, I personally kept rolling my eyes and gagging when Hermione and Ron were snogging and carrying on - because I had always wanted Hermione and Harry to be together. I equally rolled my eyes and gagged when Harry and that other girl got into each other... she simply didn't seem close to being competition for Hermione.

Most people I know agree with me that in the reader's/viewer's mind, Harry and Hermione would make an obvious couple, so Rowling is creating the tension by having the two team up with partners that simply seem unlikely choices for them.

So I completely agree with Ian.
I'm with you on this, Ian, and would have liked your essay above 10 x if I could!! ;D


message 11: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Thanks, Traveller.

Often, adolescents know more than adults think they know (and by "they" I mean both adults and adolescents).


message 12: by s.penkevich (new)

s.penkevich In fact, they're probably way ahead of most adults in the audience
Me too. That's the scary thing about having a daughter, all those things she will understand someday that I will not.

Great analysis though. I was glad JK didn't just have the H's end up together, it would have felt forced.


message 13: by Traveller (last edited Mar 13, 2012 05:55AM) (new)

Traveller s.penkevich wrote: "I was glad JK didn't just have the H's end up together, it would have felt forced. ."

You think? I hoped they'd get together at the very end, finally. (view spoiler)


message 14: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Traveller wrote: " I hoped they'd get together at the very end, finally. [spoilers removed]"

I've been told on Good Reads that it wasn't "interesting" to comment on any analogy between Harry and Christ.

Even though the Bible says:

"The Lord is the Potter,
I am the Clay."


message 15: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye s.penkevich wrote: "I was glad JK didn't just have the H's end up together, it would have felt forced."

I wouldn't mind betting that JKR originally intended the two to end up with each other.

However, the characters got together and told her to leave things alone.

It would have broken Ron's heart for him to miss out on Hermione, and I think she realised just how popular he had become with readers.

It would have been too predictable for the two H's to end up with each other, she had to resist the authorial temptation to surrender to the inevitability.


message 16: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Bennet wrote: "To those familiar with my literary likeness, it will come as no surprise to hear that I have a daughter named Emma who appreciates Jane Austen as much as I do. She's 18 and a freshman in college. ."

Why isn't she on Good Reads?

Courtship is such a good term for what happens over the course of these books.

It's not just something that Rafael Nadal is good at.

I'm grateful that you're partial to nerds.


message 17: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Bennet wrote: "most of all we liked that Hermione was always her own girl and on equal terms with her guy friends. "

I actually think that this is the most important achievement of the series: the assertion that young women don't have to be an accessory to a male or a male's vision of himself.


message 18: by Vicki (new)

Vicki Seldon Harry and Hermione together would have been way too easy. Hermione and Ron is more akin to the romantic "opposites attract".


message 19: by Traveller (last edited Mar 13, 2012 09:17AM) (new)

Traveller I must admit that I've not read most of the books, though I religiously watched all the films. I suspect the films and the books aren't quite the same experience, so perhaps your different experience of Ron (as a nerd which he doesn't seem to be to me in the movies) is because of this. I don't know when I'll ever get the time to actually read all the HP books though... *sigh*

But yes, I also prefer nerds, I suppose I just tended to see Harry as more of a nerd than I did Ron.

..but that perception comes from the films, so I suppose I can't comment re what goes on in the books.


message 20: by Traveller (new)

Traveller Ian wrote: "Bennet wrote: "most of all we liked that Hermione was always her own girl and on equal terms with her guy friends. "

I actually think that this is the most important achievement of the series: the..."


Yes, amen to those comments. *applauds*


message 21: by Vicki (new)

Vicki Seldon Actually, in my reading of things Hermione would be classified as the nerd, certainly not Harry (He's the hero and though JK plays with the nerd stereotype of glasses, he's not a nerd in any other sense of the word after he reaches Hogwarts). Ron is more of a slacker stereotype actually. The stereotypical nerd is Hermione. What I love about the whole HP world that both the books and the movies create is that they plays with and upend the coming-of-age stereotypes that American films and some books rehash over and over and over again. In my mind, this will allow the books and the movies to become classics in the future while much similarly themed entertainment will not survive its time.


message 22: by Traveller (last edited Mar 13, 2012 01:01PM) (new)

Traveller Vicki wrote: "Actually, in my reading of things Hermione would be classified as the nerd, certainly not Harry (He's the hero and though JK plays with the nerd stereotype of glasses, he's not a nerd in any other sense of the word after he reaches Hogwarts). Ron is more of a slacker stereotype actually. The stereotypical nerd is Hermione. "

Yes, that is how i read it too, and is why i thought Harry is more of a nerd than Ron is, though Hermione is quite clearly the intellectual nerd, IMO. Hermoine is better at academics, whereas Harry is better at practical magic, which still makes him more of a nerd for me than what Ron is. (But my connotation to "nerd" is a positive one, i must add, meaning: someone who prefers to sit in front of a book or PC as opposed to a party person or a sports jock.)

I suppose Harry -is- a bit of the latter, so he possibly might not qualify as a nerd in everyone's book...


message 23: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Vicki wrote: "Harry and Hermione together would have been way too easy. Hermione and Ron is more akin to the romantic "opposites attract"."

I think you're right, Vicki.

Sometimes, love is just where you find it or where you didn't go looking for it.

It's not inevitable that we end up with the partner our friends thought we would in our last school yearbook.

Life has this ability to defy expectations. Whereas a lot of art [of the predictable kind] wants to fulfil them.


message 24: by Jose (new)

Jose You're over thinking this. There never was a Harry/Hermione. EVER!! Although I thought about it a lot while reading the series, I knew that the pieces didn't click together. About the dancing in the movie...There is something called friends. Harry was just trying to cheer her up. She is her best friend (along with Ron). Doesn't he have every obligation to at least try to take her mind of things?


message 25: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Thanks, I'll try not to overthink.


message 26: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye You can have a lot of fun in Pseud's Corner.


message 27: by Traveller (new)

Traveller Is that anything similar to a "virtual intellectual"? ...or does the latter only occur on the internet.

You can have a lot of fun in Pseud's Corner. Please, oh please don't let this lead on to Freudian jokes/puns again.... :Z


message 28: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye Traveller wrote: "Please, oh please don't let this lead on to Freudian jokes/puns again.... :Z "

Note six months of self-restraint.


message 29: by sj (new)

sj I assume you've heard this version of The Ship Song? http://youtu.be/rZb5tGun50I

Also, this conversation is appropriate, given that "ships" (relationships) are being discussed.


message 30: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye sj wrote: "I assume you've heard this version of The Ship Song? http://youtu.be/rZb5tGun50I"

I'm extremely embarrassed to admit that I haven't heard that version, because I'm probably the biggest Steve Wynn fan in the southern hemisphere. Thanks for letting me know about it. I was also a pretty big fan of Johnette in the early days.


message 31: by Julia (new)

Julia I read about an interview with the music director for Deathly Hallows. He said he picked O Children for that scene because he was going through a divorce, and it was tough on his children, and that song's lyrics said everything he wanted to say to his children. It's kind of an apology.

So it really has nothing to do with Harry or Hermione or the story. To the story, it's just a random song that played on the radio in a moment when Harry wanted to cheer Hermione up.


message 32: by Ian (new)

Ian "Marvin" Graye There's a link to that article in #7. I messed up my review pretty badly, especially since I've been a big Nick Cave fan since the early 80's. I just mis-remembered the experience of the film and my mis-memory took over from there!


message 33: by Emma (new)

Emma You know, some time after she finished the series, JK Rowling admitted she 'got it wrong' about Harry and Hermione, that it should have been them who got together. So there you go. I liked that Harry and Hermione didn't get together, a true friendship was a great way for her to interact with the 'hero'. But I just don't believe she would have gone for Ron. No way.


message 34: by Cecily (last edited Oct 18, 2015 07:42AM) (new)

Cecily Some people are really weird about sex, aren't they? Elsewhere on GR recently, someone was asking about the appropriateness of The Shining for children. Fair enough - but they explicitly said they were worried about sexual themes, but not a bit of bloodshed! Give me consensual sex ahead of mindless violence any day.


message 35: by Karen (new)

Karen Hermione was leaning towards Ron, but I do think there was sexual tension- there usually is. I loved the series because Hermione was the really the hero, the bravest, and a girl.


message 36: by Richard (new)

Richard None of these characters have any sex chemistry... Well, maybe Rita Skriver and Harry alone in a closet... It could have been a "Mrs Robinson" moment...


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