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On the Ideal Orator

Marcus Tullius Cicero,

James M. May (Translator)

Jakob Wisse (translator)

3.76 · Rating details · 297 ratings · 20 reviews

In On the Ideal Orator, (De oratore), Cicero, the greatest Roman orator and prosewriter of his day, gives his mature views on rhetoric, oratory, and philosophy. Cast in the lively, literary form of a dialogue, this classic work presents a daring view of the orator as the master of all language communication while still emphasizing his role at the heart of Roman society and ...more

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Paperback, 384 pages

Published March 8th 2001 by Oxford University Press, USA (first published -55)

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Classical Rhetoric for the Modern Student by Edward P.J. Corbett

On the Ideal Orator by Marcus Tullius Cicero

Rhetoric

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Jul 23, 2011 Yann rated it really liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: antiquité, italie, politique

Dans cette excellente lettre que Cicéron écrit à son ami Brutus, le célèbre avocat et politicien républicain tente de répondre à la question du style le plus complet, le plus achevé, le plus parfait. Cicéron analyse donc le problème sans omettre de s'appuyer sur les épaules de Platon, d'Aristote, car si la philosophie décrie la rhétorique, elle est aussi un excellent entrainement pour ceux qui pratiquent cette dernière. On retrouve donc l'analyse d'Aristote en moins fouillé, moins systématique, ...more

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Feb 19, 2010 Mark Adderley rated it liked it

Shelves: classical

This is not an easy book to read. Although it contains a lot of valuable information on rhetoric, it's all hidden behind a dialogue that Cicero obviously finds much more entertaining than I do. The contemporary references are largely lost on me, not being a classical historian, and the repartee between the various characters is probably funnier in Latin.

On the other hand, it's a valuable source of information about rhetoric, even if you have to dig for it, and contains a wealth of information to ...more

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Mar 20, 2018 Luis rated it liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: classical-studies

Cicerón escribe una carta a Bruto para enseñarle cómo es su prototipo de orador perfecto. Expone que debe dominar todos los estilos y los tonos deben estar referidos a un público y tema adecuados, así como manejar todos los campos de conocimiento posibles para estar preparado. Mediante ejemplos de oradores clásicos y modelando frases latinas que permiten un uso más adecuado, Cicerón redacta de una manera algo desordenada pero coherente su ideal de experto en Retórica.

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Jan 25, 2015 Victor Heranz rated it really liked it · review of another edition

Un gran ensayo sobre la oratorio, aunque una ardua lectura. Cicerón en estado puro. Un must para los alumnos de clásicas.

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Aug 02, 2017 Mateo R. added it · review of another edition

Shelves: gl-ensayística, sgl-epístola-o-diario, literatura-romana, siglos-a-c, leídos-a-los-28-años, t-lenguaje, t-filosofía, culturas-europa-meridional, culturas-de-la-antigüedad, t-escritura-y-o-literatura

En este escrito a Bruto, Cicerón se propone determinar si existe un orador perfecto. Primero señala que sin filosofía no hay elocuencia porque el conocimiento y la sabiduría permiten hablar de las cosas. Siguiendo a Platón, dice que se puede encontrar el modelo de la elocuencia y al orador perfecto en el ámbito de las ideas y no necesariamente en un ejemplo de la realidad.

Distingue tres estilos de oradores (los que hablan de forma grandilocuente y ornamentada, los que buscan la claridad y la su En este escrito a Bruto, Cicerón se propone determinar si existe un orador perfecto. Primero señala que sin filosofía no hay elocuencia porque el conocimiento y la sabiduría permiten hablar de las cosas. Siguiendo a Platón, dice que se puede encontrar el modelo de la elocuencia y al orador perfecto en el ámbito de las ideas y no necesariamente en un ejemplo de la realidad.

Distingue tres estilos de oradores (los que hablan de forma grandilocuente y ornamentada, los que buscan la claridad y la sutileza, y los que fluctúan entre ambos polos). Pondera sobre el recto y solemne estilo de los áticos y alaba especialmente a Demóstenes, que entre ellos era también capaz de hablar con sencillez.

El orador debe considerar tres cosas: lo que dice, cuándo y cómo lo dice. Lo primero no depende de la elocuencia sino de la prudencia. En lo segundo, debe intentar siempre que pueda no reducir la controversia a personas y tiempos particulares sino hablar de lo general, porque a través de lo general se prueba lo particular. En ambos aspectos debe usar juicio y discreción para determinar qué es esencial decir y qué debe podar de su discurso. La tercera cosa (cómo lo dice) es la que requiere más arte.

El modo de decir las cosas estriba en la acción y la elocución. La acción es la elocuencia del cuerpo, las inflexiones de la voz. Cicerón afirma que el orador debe adaptar su voz al contenido de lo que dice ("con tono espantado y misterioso las cosas atroces, con voz blanda y suave las sencillas, con dignidad y reposo las graves, y en humilde y quejumbroso estilo las dolorosas"). También da consejos respecto a los ejercicios de voz, la postura, la distancia con los oyentes y la expresión facial.

Distingue el discurso de los oradores del de los filósofos (sosegado, que busca enseñar y no sorprender), de los sofistas (que ornamentan como el orador pero que no buscan perturbar los ánimos sino entretener), de los historiadores (cuyo estilo es corriente y fluido, no vigoroso y encendido) y de los poetas (que si bien juzgan y eligen las palabras como oradores, tienen más libertad para formarlas y componerlas y tienden más a deleitar). Lo que distingue a los oradores de todos los demás es la elocuencia.

Es elocuente quien, en el discurso forense y en las causas civiles, pruebe, deleite y convenza. Probar es necesario, deleitar es útil y en convencer radica la victoria final. Cada uno de estos tres aspectos puede decirse de distinto modo (probar sutilmente, deleitar templadamente, persuadir vehementemente). Debe guiarse el orador por el decorum, o cualidad de saber elegir el modo de decir más adecuado a las circunstancias.

Pero para que un orador sea perfecto no debe quedarse solo con el arte del buen decir, sino también con la ciencia de los dialécticos o arte de la disputa, y con todas las ramas de la filosofía. Debe comprender relaciones de causa y efecto, de consecuencia, de contrariedad; distinguir lo verdadero de lo falso, comenzar estableciendo definiciones de la materia tratada, etc. Pero al mismo tiempo debe hablar de estas cosas no de forma seca y breve como en las disputas filosóficas sino más adornada y elocuente, y acomodada al juicio común y la inteligencia popular.

El orador debe saber de historia, de derecho civil, de religión, de física, debe ignorar lo menos posible para dominar la materia del discurso y no solo el estilo y modo de decir.

Habla también de la composición de las palabras y el modo de contar y medir las sílabas, de los géneros ético y patético, de armonía y oído, entre otras cosas. ...more

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Feb 04, 2012 Eric rated it liked it

Shelves: rhet-comp, field-exam, diss, hedging

Cicero sets up his text as a dialogue between two famous Roman orators he much admired: Antonius and Crassus. The dialogue is set in the garden of Crassus’ villa, with minor figures (Scaevola, Cotta, Caesar, etc.) coming and going as the two-day discussion unfolds. Central to the dialogue is the question of whether oratory--and rhetoric, by extension--is an art. References are made to Plato’s Phaedrus and Gorgias--particularly Plato’s Socrates’ argument that rhetoric is not an art because it has Cicero sets up his text as a dialogue between two famous Roman orators he much admired: Antonius and Crassus. The dialogue is set in the garden of Crassus’ villa, with minor figures (Scaevola, Cotta, Caesar, etc.) coming and going as the two-day discussion unfolds. Central to the dialogue is the question of whether oratory--and rhetoric, by extension--is an art. References are made to Plato’s Phaedrus and Gorgias--particularly Plato’s Socrates’ argument that rhetoric is not an art because it has no real content and that “good” rhetoric must be undergirded by philosophical and dialectical knowledge. Early on, Crassus contends, “excellence in speaking cannot exist unless the speaker has grasped the subject he will speak about” (1.48). So Crassus forwards certain elements of Plato’s argument (the good orator must have content knowledge) but dismisses others. For instance, he places general questions (theses) within the purview of the orator--not the philosopher. Interestingly, Crassus and Antonius both adopt a sort of spirit of Socratic irony, an ethos of humility, in the dialogue. This makes sense given that Crassus at one point asserts, “the better a man speaks, the more frightened he feels about the difficulty of speaking, the unpredictable outcome of a speech, and the expectations of the audience” (1.120). Crassus and Antonius both agree that “writing as much as possible” is a key practice for the ideal orator (1.151).

The practically minded Antonius forwards the interrogation of whether oratory is an art in Book 2, rejecting the theories of philosophers and rhetoricians, to some degree respectively, as abstruse and artificial. Antonius, himself aware of his own oratory’s situationality (2.40), sees oratory as requiring an unsystematizable adaptability dependent on audience, context, etc.

Caesar gets in a nice excursus on the importance of wit and humor--including irony--to oratory’s success in the midst of the second book.

But getting back to Crassus, who wraps things up: Returning to the tiff between philosophers and orators/rhetors over the nature of rhetoric, Crassus claims that Socrates is to blame for “the rupture … between the tongue and the brain, which is quite absurd, harmful, and reprehensible” (3.61). In fact, Crassus turns the argument of the Gorgias on its head: “either [Gorgias] was never defeated by Socrates and this dialogue of Plato’s is untrue, or … Socrates was obviously … a better and more copious orator” (3.129), thus positing a sort of philosopher-orator as he moves through his final remarks on style and delivery (3.142). ...more

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Apr 09, 2018 Antti Värtö rated it liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: 2017

On jotenkin hämmentävää tarttua 2000 vuotta vanhaan kirjaan. Onhan sitä monesti lukenut kirjoja, joiden tekijät ovat kuolleet jo aikapäiviä sitten, mutta silti. Se, että kirjoittaja on kuollut sata vuotta sitten on yksi juttu; se että hän on kuollut ennen ajanlaskun alkua on toinen. Ja erityisen oudolta tuntuu, kun kirja on ihan ymmärrettävä, jopa nautittava.

Kreikkalais-roomalainen kulttuuri oli omituisen moderni. Olen lukenut sumerien ja babylonialaisten kirjoituksia, mutta ne ovat ihan vierait ...more

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Oct 19, 2018 Peter Bennett rated it it was amazing

Shelves: law-school

A very useful guide; potentially dangerous in the wrong hands.

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Feb 03, 2019 Adam rated it it was amazing

The annotations and introduction are super useful and makes this translation a great alternative/update to the Loeb editions.

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Jun 29, 2015 Ci rated it it was amazing

Shelves: re-read-books

A particular foreshadowing question for a reader is of this book’s applicability in modern life. Under the general “communication skill”, our ability to speak tends to be confined in narrower forms of one-on-one conversations and presentations to groups. With the exception of certain professions such as performing artists in theaters, legal professionals in courts, religious or political personnels, the requirement for speaking well falls far below anything oratory. Yet, there is much to learn f
A particular foreshadowing question for a reader is of this book’s applicability in modern life. Under the general “communication skill”, our ability to speak tends to be confined in narrower forms of one-on-one conversations and presentations to groups. With the exception of certain professions such as performing artists in theaters, legal professionals in courts, religious or political personnels, the requirement for speaking well falls far below anything oratory. Yet, there is much to learn from Cicero’s book from the understanding of the issue at hand, to the organization of speech contents, to the style of delivery. But this book should not be appreciate merely as a “how-to” manual. It stands above a technique manual with its literary and oratory splendor.

Instead of “Art of Speaking”, this book is about the ideal orator, who possesses the ultimate perfection in oratory art. Cicero defined this perfection in both the person and the performance: the orator should possess universal knowledge, the performances should be of consummate skills and appropriateness. Is an Orator merely professional speaker? The adjective “professional” confers a distance between the person and the profession, as well as an emphasis on the performance. Not so, in Cicero’s magnificent On The Ideal Orator, the Orator is a person achieved the consummate virtue, intelligence and righteous public life.

What makes an ideal orator? The natural ability is prerequisite, while the author’s emphases are on acquiring knowledge and honing techniques. Cicero’s picture of an ideal orator is a deep universal thinker who can speak with optimal effectiveness. Hence the contents and appropriateness are the dual objectives in the oratorical performance, yet behind the performance, the orator must be the principal thinker, not a mere agent or an actor.

A few points:

Cicero reiterated the Greek’s tripartite requisites for excellence: possession of nature ability, learning of techniques, diligence in practice. In this book, Cicero particularly took issues with the narrow and rigid precepts and rules of the rhetorical schooling. Instead, he seemed to advocate a universal knowledge base including philosophies and civil laws, even though such knowledge is beyond any individual’s grasp yet it should be an ideal for aspiration. In practice, he acknowledged the feasibility of specialization and usage of aids such as legal experts.

How to praise and how to condemn. In other words, what is desirable in a person, and what is praiseworthy. This issue, at the first place, is merely technical as this distinction gives a clear form for laudatory speeches. The deeper issue lies in Cicero’s moral judgement of circumstances and personal character.

Oratory skill in playing the psychological chords. Cicero addressed the importance of arousing ethos and pathos in achieving oratory goals. In this particular book, the issue of orator’s moral conviction resides in the vague concept that he must be a “good and honorable” person. Yet what to say, what not to say, is still very much with achieving a particular outcome in mind. By careful selection and shading, without outright falsehood or contradictions, an effective orator is capable to advocate either sides. One’s fidelity to one’s paying client (the modern sense) seems to be higher than the need to achieve “truth”. In this sense, an orator is an agent, a paid speaker for a particular side, although the idea of giving weapons (such as oratory eloquence) to madman is mentioned.

Modern readers can be benefited from the discussion of proper use of language. There are many engaging examples of how to use humor and wit and avoid buffoonery, how to select words and phrases with freshness and origniality to avoid trite and hackneyed usage, the use of metaphors and metonyms, and rhythms that please both the ears and hearts of the listeners. ...more

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Oct 20, 2010 Mandy rated it really liked it

Shelves: rhetoric, 2010

An excellent translation as far as coherence goes. Granted, I don't speak or read Latin, but I found it cogent. The arrangement on the page was excellent, particularly the way subjects were divided into sections. The outline of sections in the introduction is incredibly useful. Historiography and explanations of concepts as clarified by the introduction and footnotes were also helpful to my understanding of the text. Not to mention, Cicero was just plain logical about the way he wrote this stuff ...more

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Aug 20, 2008 Chiggins1066 rated it it was amazing

One of the greatest literary achievements of all time. Here, the full force of Cicero's intellect is unleashed. Using a form similar to Plato's "Symposium," he explores the obligations, perogatives, and ultimate goals of the "ideal orator"--the man who has both wisdom and eloquence, and who cultivates the practical and speculative virtues. Contained here is the most compelling and profound definition of rhetoric ever produced.

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Jun 15, 2018 Kathryn Marie added it · review of another edition

Shelves: non-fiction, writing-reading, philosophy, rhetoric, european

I really love Cicero. I have mixed feelings on the classical dialogue style, but I appreciate what Cicero takes on with the dialogue and that he continues that tradition especially in an exploration of rhetoric. Cicero covers so much material here on rhetoric and art that I don't even know where to begin, but his main argument is in favor of a the Isocrates strand of rhetorical education, which is totally awesome.

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Sep 27, 2011 Mandy rated it it was ok

This was for class, so for me a decent amount of background knowledge on Cicero and On the Ideal Orator is necessary, but beyond that I generally find classical dialogues tedious, and this was no exception. However, I was pleasantly surprised that the section on wit and humor was both interesting and relevant.

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Jan 21, 2016 Brennan rated it it was amazing

Shelves: cicero, philosophy, rhetoric, oratory

The structure of the book was a reflection of its content. Ridiculously impressive.

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Mar 04, 2013 Kirk Kittell added it · review of another edition

Shelves: read-in-2013

Scanned copy on Google Books: De Oratore ...more

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Dec 05, 2007 Isabel rated it really liked it · review of another edition

(I only read Book I, but this looks quite useful indeed)

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Jan 04, 2016 Markus rated it really liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: classic-fictions, ancient-rome, philosophy

A reference.

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Oct 24, 2015 Eszter rated it liked it

Cicero sais that a rhetor has to be familiar also with the philosophy, and has to speak every time in the best style. He tells a lot also about the rithm in the text, and about other topics.

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About Marcus Tullius Cicero

Marcus Tullius Cicero

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Marcus Tullius Cicero, Roman philosopher, statesman, lawyer, political theorist, and Roman constitutionalist. Cicero is widely considered one of Rome's greatest orators and prose stylists.

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Marco Tulio Cicerón
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“primam esse historiae legem, ne quid falsi dicere audeat, n quid veri non audeat" - "Historiju trebamo poznavati kako ne bi govorili neistinu
i kako imali hrabrosti za istinu” — 0 likes

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