The Jasmine Moon Murder

Tea Shop Mystery #5

by Laura Childs

Indigo Tea Shop owner Theodosia Browning is catering a Charleston benefit, a "Ghost Crawl" through Jasmine Cemetery, when the organizer drops dead—and it looks like foul play. Theodosia stirs things up with her own investigation, and gets into hot water up to her neck.

Genres: Mystery, Cozy Mystery, Fiction, Cozy, Tea, Mystery Thriller, Crime

257 pages, Mass Market Paperback

First published January 1, 2004

About the author

Laura Childs is a pseudonym for Gerry Schmitt and she is the best-selling author of the Tea Shop Mysteries, the Scrapbook Mysteries, and the Cackleberry Club Mysteries.

Laura Childs is the New York Times bestselling author of the Tea Shop Mysteries, Scrapbook Mysteries, and Cackleberry Club Mysteries. In her previous life she was CEO/Creative Director of her own marketing firm and authored several screenplays. She is married to a professor of Chinese art history, loves to travel, rides horses, enjoys fund raising for various non-profits, and has two Chinese Shar-Pei dogs.

Laura specializes in cozy mysteries that have the pace of a thriller (a thrillzy!) Her three series are:

The Tea Shop Mysteries - set in the historic district of Charleston and featuring Theodosia Browning, owner of the Indigo Tea Shop. Theodosia is a savvy entrepreneur, and pet mom to service dog Earl Grey. She's also an intelligent, focused amateur sleuth who doesn't rely on coincidences or inept police work to solve crimes. This charming series is highly atmospheric and rife with the history and mystery that is Charleston.

The Scrapbooking Mysteries - a slightly edgier series that take place in New Orleans. The main character, Carmela, owns Memory Mine scrapbooking shop in the French Quarter and is forever getting into trouble with her friend, Ava, who owns the Juju Voodoo shop. New Orleans' spooky above-ground cemeteries, jazz clubs, bayous, and Mardi Gras madness make their presence known here!

The Cackleberry Club Mysteries - set in Kindred, a fictional town in the Midwest. In a rehabbed Spur station, Suzanne, Toni, and Petra, three semi-desperate, forty-plus women have launched the Cackleberry Club. Eggs are the morning specialty here and this cozy cafe even offers a book nook and yarn shop. Business is good but murder could lead to the cafe's undoing! This series offers recipes, knitting, cake decorating, and a dash of spirituality.

Reviews

[Trish · Rating 4 out of 5]

One of the better "cafe" cozies. And I do love the tea tips.

[Sherry Sharpnack · Rating 5 out of 5]

Tea Shop Mystery #5 has Theodosia, Drayton, and Haley working a tea table at Charleston's Ghost Crawl at the famous Jasmine Cemetery. The Ghost Crawl features amateur actors declaiming lines uttered by some of the famous denizens of the cemetery, many from the Civil War era, along with poetry readings. Theodosia witnesses a couple of arguments between the organizer of the event and some guests but doesn't think much of it -- until the organizer drops dead, apparently from a heart attack. This is ironic b/c the organizer is Dr. Jasper Davis, a noted cardiologist who is working on a laser process for placing stents more quickly and easily in clogged coronary arteries. And one of the witnessed arguments was with the CEO of the company backing the NovaLaser. Very unfortunately, the organizer, Dr. Davis, is also the uncle of Theodosia's beau, the lawyer Jory Davis.
Theodosia believes Dr. Davis' death is suspicious b/c she stepped on a used syringe while sprinting toward the fallen, dying Dr. Davis. Theodosia's police-detective frenemy, Burt Tidwell, warns her off "nosing" into the suspicious death, but a distraught Jory asks for her help in determining the cause of death: an actual heart attack or a murder.
What will Theodosia do? Well, of course she will investigate the murder. There's a soon-to-be ex-wife of the victim; the head of a local amateur theater who was seen in in one of the arguments; and were the pushy marketing execs involved somehow? The denouement is unexpected and tense -- as always in this series. Remember that the murderer in a cozy mystery is almost always "who you least expect" (to quote Ned Flanders from 'The Simpsons'). I had my suspicions on the murderer, and was surprisingly, correct on this one. Still 5 stars.

[QNPoohBear · Rating 4 out of 5]

While catering a Ghost Crawl in Charleston's historic cemetery, Theodosia is introduced to her beau's uncle, Dr. Jasper Davis, a cardiologist who has been working on a new device used for heart surgery. His boss, Dr. Rex Haggard seems eager to get this device on the market but Dr. Davis is more cautious. Theodosia and Jorry also witness a strange confrontation over Charleston's Medical Triad cutting funding to the local repertory theater. Times are tough and non-profits tend to lose out when corporations dole out charitable funding. While Indigo Tea Shop is doing well, Theodosia also plans to appear in some TV spots to increase business. While watching the next performance of the "haunting" , a man comes staggering out from behind the cemetery staging area, struggling for breath before collapsing. Everyone thinks it's part of the show but Theodosia soon realizes that it's no act and the man is none other than Uncle Jasper! Uncle Jasper dies before he makes it to the hospital and a visit from Detective Tidwell shows Theo that Uncle Jasper's death was not from natural causes. Detective Tidwell believes Uncle Jasper was murdered! A syringe Theodosia found at the scene reveals Uncle Jasper was injected with fentanyl, a deadly drug just beginning to be known on the streets at the time the story takes place. While Theodosia promises Detective Tidwell she'll stay out of it, she can't resist Jorry's pleas for help. She hates seeing him so sad and upset and overwhelmed so of course she has to "look into" things for him. Her snooping leads to threats and someone else ends up dead. Can Theodosia solve the murder before she gets killed?

This series is getting much better. While the third person is still jarring, there's a lot less head jumping. There's one very brief scene from Earl Grey's Point-of-View and I think one from Drayton's but that's it. I don't really care for the observing from above style as the put you in the character's head style but this was much better without the head jumping. The mystery was also really good. It was the first one where I didn't figure it out. I thought I knew who the killer was but I was wrong. I did pick up on a subtle possible clue but there was no indication this person was the murderer until Theodosia wanders into the villain's clutches at the end of the book.

As usual, the tea shop cozy details are excellent. Love the tea chocolate tea OMG! Sign me up. I've tried several types of chocolate tea. Why is there corn syrup in Haley's muffins? gross. I don't like floral teas but I might try making tea truffles with hot cinnamon spice tea. The combo of chocolate and cinnamon would be amazing. I really appreciate that this series focuses on the art of tea.

There's a little too much Charleston Old South in this book for me. Why are we still revering our Civil War "heroes" in 2004? Then there's the fox hunt which sounds very English to me. The old homes are far more ritzy than New England's old homes and the people are ... different. While I'm sure Charleston is very pretty, I don't know if I'd feel comfortable visiting there. The cozy technology details are dated a bit. Camera/text phones are the new big thing (LOL) and SOMEHOW either without a data plan or with dead Uncle Jasper's plan, Theodosia can miraculously quickly send text messages with photos to someone. I don't think the author fully understood the technology. Another dated reference is kind of sad. 20 years ago fentanyl was mainly only known in hospitals, chem labs and police departments. It was JUST becoming a big illegal business to manufacture potent fentanyl and mixing it with heroin. A lot has changed since then. (Maybe? or maybe the author just felt the need to explain to an audience that may live under a rock? I live in a city with a big fentanyl problem.) Apparently also a lot has changed in the care and feeding of dogs. How dare Theodosia feed Early Grey raisins?! I thought she loved her dog! He's such a good boy and doesn't deserve to have his kidneys destroyed by toxic raisins. Poor baby!

There were more new characters in this book making it harder to guess the murderer. Uncle Jasper seems like he was a good man. He was highly intelligent and dedicated to saving lives. Sure he was cautious but that's a good thing. He wanted to make sure his device works before putting it out there for widespread use. It sounds like the technology wasn't quite there yet to build this thing and make it work effectively. I didn't quite understand what it was. In contrast, Uncle Jasper's boss, Rex, is rather brash and arrogant. He's eager to get the device out there and make money. He seems to already have money or his wife does. Peaches is weird and creepy. She owns a French boutique and seems to be in competition with Delaine. While Theodosia seems to think it's in Delaine's head, I think Peaches was being catty and deliberately putting down Delaine's cotton clothing.

Ben Atherton and Emily Guthro of Vantage PR handled the Ghost Crawl event and are in charge of marketing the new medical device. Ben is a little weird- guffawish and maybe a great spin doctor without ethics. He's a competitive and cheerful one minute and angry the next. His wife, Cleo, is competitive and doesn't hesitate to cheat to win. Yikes. I think he's the people person while Emily does all the work. Emily is nice. She's new and eager to get ahead but not so naïve and trusting. She's not quite burned out and jaded yet -somewhere in between. I think she's doing all the work while Ben is the people person who gets the credit. Emily seems to look up to Theo and see Theo as a mentor. I like that. However, one clue makes me think Emily had the knowledge to murder someone in that way but what motive did she have? None of the clues point to her. Theodosia thinks the clues point to Ben.

Clues also point to Lois Kimbraugh, who works for a rival medical supply company but knows Uncle Jasper. She's nice enough to come to his memorial service but she's also highly competitive and seems cozy with Rex. She's obsessed with fox hunting and horses. She's a real outdoorswoman and something about her seems off. She comes on to Drayton too obviously strong and lots of things make her seem creepy. Also creepy is Vance Tuttle, the founder of the local reparatory theater. He's passionate and obsessed with his theater which seems to be not all that well-known or popular yet from Theo's reaction. Vance Tuttle is not sympathetic or understanding about his major source of funding drying up. I can understand his frustration, hurt and anger but arguing about it in public with someone who doesn't make that decision alone isn't going to help matters. Star Duncan is Uncle's Jasper's estranged wife. She's a piece of work. I suspect she wants his palm pilot and day planner to hide evidence. She gets cozy with one of the suspects too. She inherits everything and her husband died a VERY wealthy man! Was she a gold digger black widow?

I don't think Jorry loves Theo. He doesn't SEE her or GET her. He describes her business as "the tea thing" and doesn't even know anything about tea or the products she sells. Does he actually ever listen to her? She uses him so I guess it's fair. I don't see this relationship lasting long. Theo is so nice to help handle all the funeral details and everything while Jorry handles the estate but he asks WAY too much to ask her to solve the crime. Did he forget the part where murderers have come after her and tried to kill her too? Did he forget she's a nosy civilian and Tidwell is actually good at his job? The "evidence" Theo collects was obtained illegally and I don't think it would hold up in court.

Marcus Matteo, Delaine's new "it" designer coming to do a trunk show seems sleazy and up to something. He courts Delaine and another woman. Delaine thinks he's interested in her romantically. His fashions sound weird and unattractive and I don't know why the other woman is interested or how she has the money. I think they must know each other and be in on some scam together.

I plan to keep going with at least one more book for now and see how it goes. I do really like the tea theme!

[Carly · Rating 2 out of 5]

**This really deserves 2 and a half stars.**

I don't know why I keep putting myself through the trouble of reading these books. I really don't.

Cons

--I knew who the murderer was from the second the character was introduced.

--The author cannot write dialogue at all. No one talks like these characters do. She uses first names way too much.

--The setting of the tea shop gets in the way of the story. Even though, I knew who the murderer was, the story in and of itself was fairly interesting. And I do understand that the tea shop is the crux of the series, so as a reader, I know that I'm going to hear a lot about it, but it is beyond ridiculous. Its like the author is trying to prove to the reader that she knows everything about tea. For example, after being asked which tea should a character (who happens to be a tea master and blender) choose, we are given a full description of both teas instead of just picking one. The tea master doesn't need to know the description of the teas cause he already knows it. And if this sort of thing were to happen once in awhile then it would totally be okay, its part of the charm of being set in a tea shop, but its not okay when it is happening on every other page.

Pros

--I do love that it is set in a tea shop. There are times in the story where its appropriate and it is very charming. I wish that there was a tea shop like that where I live.

--The story in and of itself is pretty good.

--The characters are likeable.

--The food that Haley cooks sounds wonderful, so I'm really pleased that they provide the recipes in the back of the book.

--I love the fact that it is set in Charleston. Reading these books is what made me want to vacation there and is why my husband and I chose to honeymoon there. Its a lovely place and I like to be reminded of it.

Odd thing

--So the author takes places and events that actually exist and happen in Charleston and changes their names. I don't know why. She mentions Charleston having their famed Lamplighter Tours every year. This famed event doesn't exist. There is an event that fits the description in everything but the name, so I don't know why she doesn't use the actual name of the tour. The cemetery at the beginning of the story doesn't actually exist as far as I can tell. But there are cemeteries in Charleston that fit the bill. Why not use one of those?

--The author likes to give characters names taken from Charleston landmarks. For example, Drayton appears to be named for Drayton Hall (one of my favorite stops in Charleston). As far as I can tell, she doesn't do this a bunch in the Tea Shop Mysteries and it doesn't annoy me, but it really bothered me when I read a couple of her Scrapbooking Mysteries (which is set in New Orleans, where I'm from, so I am familiar with all of the references).

And because I'm a glutton for punishment, I will probably keep reading the series, but I really have to space them out.

[Kathy · Rating 3 out of 5]

During a ghost walk at the Jasmine Cemetery, Theodosia and the crew of the Indigo Tea Shop are serving up tea and treats to spectators when tragedy occurs. The uncle of Theo's boyfriend stumbles into the show, collapsing, and dying in her arms. Knowing Theo's sleuthing skills, her boyfriend, Jory, asks her to look into the murder and try to find the person responsible for his uncle's death. Little do they know the dangers Theo and others will face during the course of the investigation.

Like the other books in this series, "The Jasmine Moon Murder" is filled with intrigue and the prerequisite red herrings. It is indeed the classic formulaic mystery novel. If you're very familiar with the genre, it will be easy to spot the culprit from the moment they're introduced. Still, it is a fun and interesting read.

One final note I must make. Ms. Childs makes a comment in the first half of the book about Theo mixing a special kibble for her dog Earl Grey. This special kibble includes raisins, and I must say that I feel this is irresponsible and dangerous. Raisins are toxic to dogs and cause kidney failure. I do wish that Ms. Childs and her editors would remove that from the book as it is an unnecessary bit anyway. I would hate to think of any readers mixing this same kibble for their own pets.

[Claire · Rating 1 out of 5]

Listen I am obsessed with tea and would do anything for a cozy series about tea.......but Laura Childs writes like a jackass. Literally the most atrocious dialogue I've ever read in my entire life (and I suffered through Jade Street Protection Services).

I gave her five books to fix her dialogue but everyone still sound like assholes. I hate every character in this book because her trash dialogue makes them all sound like they deserve a punch in the face. Except maybe the baker, she's fine. But the author makes the older characters talk down towards her so condescendingly?? Hayley deserves better than Theodora and Laura Childs' thinly veiled attempt at making Drayton the flamboyant gay friend trope that straight women are obsessed w for some gross reason

Bailed after five attempts that were just wastes of my time. I deserve a better tea-themed cozy mystery than what this series is.

[Stella · Rating 4 out of 5]

I have a soft heart for this series, even though I have never failed to identify the killers -- usually the moment they are introduced. Childs is transparent as glass in the choice of her killers. The dialogue is a little too formal, and the grammar is AWFUL. I have never read such poorly edited books. Besides the terrible grammar, there is almost always a misspelled name somewhere. But. BUT. I love this series! I really adore the tea shop, food descriptions, tea lore, the descriptions of Charleston, and the characters. Hayley and Drayton, in particular, are utterly charming. Theodosia is fun, but she's so "perfect" it makes me roll my eyes sometimes, especially when she's trying to be humble about it. But I do like her a great deal.

So, while the series is poorly written and completely transparent, it remains one of my favorite cozy mystery series around. Odd, but there you have it!

Jasmine Moon Murder is a little better than some, a little worse than others, but this was the first one I read and it hooked me. I loved the cemetery descriptions, the drama, and the autumn setting. Overall, a nice book that is whip-quick to read.

[Joy Gerbode · Rating 4 out of 5]

Although I find the mystery gets lost a bit in all the other things going on, I am charmed by the tea shop, LOVE all the descriptions of the teas, teapots, and tea foods. I enjoy reading the recipes, and some of them I want to try. I LOVE tea, in almost any form, so while the mystery is good, what I really enjoyed in this book was the description of the tea and chocolate truffles, some of the tea sandwiches, mmmmmmm, makes me hungry!

[H · Rating 4 out of 5]

I've read all of the books in this series about Theodosia Browning, who owns a quaint teashop in Charleston, South Carolina. I love the interesting tidbits that the author gives about the Low Country and tea in general. The books have piqued my interest in visiting the Historic District in Charleston and roaming around the cobblestone streets.

[Allie · Rating 4 out of 5]

Another mystery solved! Love this cozy mystery series! I did note once concern though and it was pretty early on in the book. Theodosia writes about feeding her dog a “trail mix”. This mix include raisins which can be quite toxic to dogs. So while there are recipes shared in here that look quite yummy, the dog trail mix should be skipped.

[Missy · Rating 2 out of 5]

Book #47 read in 2011

This book seemed less about the mystery and droned on about the tea shop. I understand the background of the characters is important, but in a mystery novel, the mystery should be more prominent.

[Lynda · Rating 2 out of 5]

2.5

I love love the teashop setting, but the rest of the book is a bit of a mess. Mostly comes down to how strange the dialogue is. As many have mentioned, no one talks the way these characters do!

Also NEVER GIVE YOUR DOGS RAISINS. NEVER EVER.

Do I think these are good books? No. Will I keep reading them? Yes! haha. Don't ask why, I guess I just love tea.

[Kathy · Rating 2 out of 5]

Not my favorite of the series thus far. Some editing issues as well as a weak plot, in my opinion. Also, she should NOT have had her main character prepare her dog a meal that included raisins, perhaps giving readers ideas about such a meal for their own dogs. Raisins are toxic to dogs. Very irresponsible and disappointing.

[Lea]

DNF at page 97 when she fed raisins to her dog, which are extremely toxic and on every never feed your dog list.
I love the idea of this series, I love the tea shop and reading long descriptions of tea and learning more about it. I really enjoyed the Chocolate Tea event in this book. I even enjoy the long winded information on Charleston. But I've decided that I just do not enjoy the author's writing. I don't care about the characters really and after five books I should feel like they're family.

[Leah · Rating 3 out of 5]

This takes place in the lovely city of Charleston. It involves a murder, a ghost crawl, a hunt/ride, and a tour of homes, Lamplighter Tour. The mystery was okay. I thought it would end differently. I liked the teas and food; they are still my favorite things about this series.

[Cathy Ferriter · Rating 5 out of 5]

Another great Tea Shop mystery. A lot of characters to consider but only one is the murderer. Mrs. Childs definitely knows how to keep one guessing!

[Traci · Rating 4 out of 5]

Great cozy for anyone looking for Southern charm and great descriptions of tea and tea shops. The relationship between Theodosia and Jory is strengthened when she helps him figure out who’s behind the death of a family member. There were plenty of twists and the ending was a surprise

[Ms. Bryant · Rating 2 out of 5]

All of the steamy historical romances I've been reading have spoiled me for these. The major mystery here is why Timothy Neville would have Theodosia and her dog Earl Grey house-sit his Italianate mansion loaded with Hepplewhite furnishings and Aubusson carpet. Still, this is a sweet series and I do love the tea stuff. I'll keep reading.

[Ali · Rating 2 out of 5]

I've come to realize now that I will always know the murderer in this series as soon as their character is introduced. The author has started to follow the formula of having the killer always end up being the new character that Theodosia never gives any thought or suspicion too, which makes it clear to the reader that they will inevitably end up being the killer. I also find the love interest of Jory to be boring and unnecessary as well, that he only exists because formula dictates that the main character has to have a boyfriend who is either in law enforcement or the law. Even though this book centered around a murder of one of his family members, you felt no real emotion about it and it's very detached. I prefer when there's more interaction and conflict between the heroine and the love interest, whereas in this series it seems like a very superficial relationship that wouldn't make a difference if it was there or not.

[Patty · Rating 4 out of 5]

I enjoy the Tea Shop mysteries. I don't drink tea, I don't understand about half the descriptions of the tea, but the mysteries are fun and I enjoy Theo, Haley and Drayton - the are fun characters.

This time around Theo gets involved in the murder of her current beau's uncle. She must find out if it has something to do with the local theatre, the historical society or the business that Uncle Jasper worked for - which leaves her with a wide cast of potential suspects.

There is a cool scene with a fox hunt (minus the living foxes) and another set in a cemetery that is spooky.

I'm way behind on this series so am working to catch up - and I'll enjoy every minute of it.

[✨ Gramy ✨ · Rating 3 out of 5]

.
This woman sleuth happens to own a tea shop. Who knew there were so many different types of tea and ways to serve them? Not me, this series has taught me something there.

Theo stays busy, busy, busy. But she always finds time to investigate the current murder. Each book delivers a cozy read for enjoyable entertainment. I liked this one. Although it was not exceptional, it was entertaining.

Each book is able to stand on its own and deliver an HEA, which is an important attribute in a series when I chose to read it.

[BLynne · Rating 5 out of 5]

Theodosia finds herself involved in resolving the murder of Jasper, her boyfriend Jory's uncle. As she accumulates a list of suspects she discovers that there are more involved with Jasper then what she thought. I liked how I was not really able to figure out who the murder was until it was actually reveiled in towards the end. I felt that it was a good twist. I do like this series and plan to continue reading it.

[Vicky Marie · Rating 3 out of 5]

Hmm, I'm not sure I like where Theodosia's character development is going. She's starting to get a big head after solving a few murders. I noticed this happens a lot with the younger sleuths. I hope Childs doesn't make her worse. The murderers are also becoming very obvious. It's always the person who seems a little off.

[Rebecca · Rating 4 out of 5]

There's a body at the Cemetery Crawl...and no, it isn't one of the expected ones. It is one of the organizers, a well-respected man, and Theodosia's sweetie's uncle! Of course Theodosia is going to do everything possible to find the culprit, regardless of the danger...and danger, there certainly is!

[Kay Wright · Rating 2 out of 5]

The tea shop, Charleston, the teas and desserts. All delicious. The characters are cardboard, the mystery silly and the heroine's boyfriend has the lowest sex drive of any healthy male in America. Oh well, no one is perfect.,

[Ilka · Rating 3 out of 5]

I love the bits of tea trivia and the character's tea shop but something about the author's style makes it very hard for me to picture the people in this book.

[Jeanie Harper · Rating 5 out of 5]

Great mystery - last chapter reveals the killer - teas and sandwiches sound great too.

Wonderful story.

[Heather · Rating 4 out of 5]

Enjoyable cozy, especially for tea lovers

[Pamela Mclaren · Rating 3 out of 5]

Honestly, there are times I wonder how Theodosia Browning, Laura Childs' enterprising tea shop owner and amateur sleuth, can run a business. How can she run a business with only herself and two employees, while donating herself and her employees and her product at a charity event, dating her boyfriend or sleuthing?

I guess that is one of those questions that you are not supposed to think about when reading an enjoyable cozy mystery.

So once again, the story starts as Theo and her employees are serving tea and baked goods at a Ghost Crawl through the grounds of a historic cemetery. The charity event is sponsored by Charleston's Medical Triad, of which her boyfriend's Uncle Jasper, is a part. All seems to be going well and the evening is drawing to a close when who should make an appearance? Uncle Jasper, who proceeds to fall down dead!

While everyone is shocked and stunned, Theo heads towards the stage and steps on the first clue - a syringe - which she has the presence of mind to grab with a napkin, hence not adding her fingerprints!

Soon the police are on hand and Theo has been admonished to not snoop into the murder. Five minutes later — if that long — she agrees to look into it for her boyfriend, Jory. So what is a woman to do? She tries to keep both boyfriend and police detective happy and gets herself deep into the case.

There's plenty to keep Theo and her assorted staff, friends, etc., busy in this tale — all served with the tasty bakery goods and teas served up along with this story. And while its not great reading, it is fun.

[N Reads · Rating 4 out of 5]

Number 5 in the cozy Tea Shop Mystery series. I thoroughly enjoy this series. It's a quick read, and unlike a lot of reviewers here, I didn't know who the killer was until the very end.
Charleston sounds charming. I would love a tea shop somewhere near me that had such an extensive variety of teas and also someone who knew something about them. There used to be one on Grand Avenue in St. Paul, but only sold pre-packaged tins. But I digress....
A murder committed in a cemetery during a live performance was intriguing. But geeze, did it HAVE to be her boyfriends uncle, of all people?
I enjoy most of the characters, except Delaine. False friend, she is. And sometimes Theodosia can be a bit stupid: someone shoots at her and she isn't concerned.
Overall, though, a great book with characters that seem to come to life for me.

HEADS UP, LAURA CHILDS. Before you give out dog food recipes, make sure the ingredients are ones that dogs can eat. The granola Theodosia feeds her dog has raisins, made from grapes. Dogs should NEVER eat this food as it can be incredibly toxic to them.