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Celestial Matters

Richard Garfinkle

3.73 · Rating details · 329 ratings · 53 reviews

In the world of Celestial Matters, Ptolemaic astronomy and Aristotelian physics are valid scientific models of the surrounding world and cosmos. The Earth lies at the center of the universe, surrounded by crystal spheres which hold each of the planets, the sun and the moon, all enclosed in the sphere of the fixed stars. Earthly matter, composed of the classical four elemen ...more

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Paperback, 352 pages

Published June 15th 1997 by Tor Books (first published April 1996)

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Jun 23, 2009 Dan Schwent rated it liked it

Shelves: steampunk

Commander Aias of the Celestial Ship Chandra's Tear is charged with heading up operation Sunthief, using a ship to steal a piece of the sun and drop it on the capital city of the Middle Kingdom, the enemy of the Delian League.

This is one of those books that's hard to classify. Can something be classified as hard sf if the science in question is that of the ancient Greeks and equally ancient Chinese? That's right. Celestial matters is part hard sf, part alternate history. The Delia League is a Gr ...more

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Sep 08, 2011 Alessandra added it · review of another edition

Shelves: fantasy, science-fiction, steampunk, books-by-close-relatives

I can't review this objectively, because my husband wrote it. I think it's brilliant, naturally, but better check some other people's reviews. ...more

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Jul 27, 2011 Myaru rated it really liked it

This was definitely worth reading, both for the steampunk and silkpunk content, and as a speculation on ancient Greek science, which we of course ignore now that we have "real" scientific evidence of how the universe works. I have to disclose that I know very little about Greek celestial theory, and so much of the science was opaque to me - but that didn't make the book less enjoyable or less inspiring.

In a nutshell, the book is about a scientist named Aias, commander of a celestial ship in the This was definitely worth reading, both for the steampunk and silkpunk content, and as a speculation on ancient Greek science, which we of course ignore now that we have "real" scientific evidence of how the universe works. I have to disclose that I know very little about Greek celestial theory, and so much of the science was opaque to me - but that didn't make the book less enjoyable or less inspiring.

In a nutshell, the book is about a scientist named Aias, commander of a celestial ship in the service of the Delian League (the Grecian-ruled West), whose goal at the beginning of the story is to lead an operation that will allow his team to capture a fragment of the sun's fire and use it as a weapon to destroy the capitol of the Middle Kingdom (China, and nominal leader of the East), who they've been at war with for hundreds of years. Middle Kingdom spies and agents are sent to stop this, and the first half of the book is spent trying to solve the mystery of who these spies are and how they plan to sabotage the mission.

Aias and his culture use technology derived from ancient Greek theory, and the Middle Kingdom uses Taoist science to produce technology powered by Xi. Scientists from both sides are constantly (hilariously) commenting on how incomprehensible the other side's technology is, and this seeming gulf of understanding is probably the most important mystery of the book. It is eventually solved, but the story ends rather abruptly with the completion of Aias's little political manipulation, and we never learn what happened to the characters once that hurdle was overcome.

That's my biggest gripe with the book, actually; I would've liked a little more closure. Ramonojon's plight isn't really solved, and we don't know what reception Aias and Phan receive in their respective homes, or even if they try to return at all; since Aias's plan has been blessed by all of his gods, you can imagine the future plays out exactly as he lays it out in the last few paragraphs, but we get no indication of what happens to these characters. As characters are generally still the most important part of a book for me, this was a disappointment.

Also interesting: the integration of gods and celestial science. Another thing I appreciated was the lack of an authorial or character-centric opinion of which belief or philosophy (Greek or Tao) was supposed to be judged correct by the reader. The two traditions seem to be given equal validity.

On the topic of Phan, and Middle Kingdom characters in general, I think the author did a good job of portraying them as characters in their own right, instead of as stereotypes - also that they weren't depicted as clearly in the wrong, but that both sides had historical and cultural precedent for their behavior and beliefs. My opinion of Persia via Mihradarius isn't as well-formed, but I mention it because of the part he played in the mystery. ...more

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Nov 04, 2014 Marco rated it really liked it

Shelves: finished, on, 4, may, 2014

As every great best science fiction book, "Celestial Matters" is not just science fiction for the sake of itself. Scientific fiction - or, quite literally in this case, fictional science - is a means to point out some otherwise poorly considered themes of our ordinary world, a strategy to devise mental experiments which, thanks to their anomalous appearence, draw the readers' attention on specific topics.
The main focus of "Celestial Matters", thus, is not "What if Aristotelian Physics was true?" ...more

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Aug 11, 2016 David Montgomery rated it really liked it

A fascinating, and very well-executed, novel of "alternate science." It's set in a world in which what Aristotle posited about the nature of the world — four elements, rotating geocentric celestial spheres, four humour-based medicine, etc. — are actually true. (Mostly. More on this.) Furthermore it's a novel of alternate history, for which the point of divergence appears to be that the Peloponnesian War never occurred. Rather, Athens and Sparta united in the Delian League and eclipsed Macedonia A fascinating, and very well-executed, novel of "alternate science." It's set in a world in which what Aristotle posited about the nature of the world — four elements, rotating geocentric celestial spheres, four humour-based medicine, etc. — are actually true. (Mostly. More on this.) Furthermore it's a novel of alternate history, for which the point of divergence appears to be that the Peloponnesian War never occurred. Rather, Athens and Sparta united in the Delian League and eclipsed Macedonia culturally and militarily. Alexander, as a League general instead of a deified emperor, lived until old age. His tutor Aristotle used his science to create new weapons of war that led to an even larger, and much more durable, Hellenic empire.

In the time of the novel's setting — the world is essentially divided in a forever war between the Greek Delian League and the Chinese Middle Kingdom, with the battle lines in Tibet and central North America. (The time period is never quite specified; it's said Alexander's empire has lasted a thousand years, which would put it about 700 AD, but the feel of the setting, with motorized ships and space travel, is more 20th Century.) The needs of the great war have led to accelerated science but atrophied culture, with philosophy and history both low-prestige disciplines.

I've talked mostly about the setting rather than the plot, but honestly, the setting is the reason to read the book. It's a clever conceit that's executed well, with a first-person narration that drops you into the deep end of an unfamiliar world but doles out details on its rules in a steady fashion as the book goes on. This includes not just science but culture, as the characters of the book hold to ancient Greek traditions: the Olympic pantheon, funeral games, inspiration from the muses, a Spartan sense of honor, and a huge classical influence on the ideals of heroism.

My biggest qualm with the book is the way its final act developed, which stepped into the realm of world-saving, world-shaking heroism. The too-neat conclusion was justified by a little divine intervention, though I suppose one could argue that is itself authentic to the material's inspiration. Regardless, it felt a little narratively implausible; I'd have felt it to be more earned if the novel's conclusion had been the end of a trilogy that started on a very grounded level and only gradually raised the stakes.

I was also left with questions about the world. Though by the end I understood the Aristotelian physics undergirding the universe rather well, in a confusing twist the Taoist model of the universe ALSO turns out to be true. The novel never really explains how two contradictory models of reality can be true at the same time — the narrator and protagonist figures it out but doesn't actually tell us what he's figured out. Given that the author thought out the implications of both physics models with great care that suggests he didn't quite square that circle either.

But altogether it was an enjoyable read, at least for someone like me who is vaguely familiar with Aristotle. (A lover of speculative fiction with no background might still enjoy the story; I can't say how that experience would be different — or the experience of someone who's actually an expert in Aristotelian or Taoist physics.) The writing style seemed accessible, though I'm not particularly picky on that matter; particularly well done seemed to be the narrator's habit of periodically expressing regret for not noticing something important, foreshadowing future developments without giving it away. ...more

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Oct 08, 2007 Cate rated it really liked it

Describes a world in which Aristotelian Physics are real, the Delian League of Alexander the Great never collapsed, and they now do battle against the Middle Kingdom (China) by attempting to steal a piece of the sun.

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Jul 07, 2019 David Pappas rated it did not like it

Give the author a marginal amount of credit for attempting to be creative. That one positive said, all else is bad about this book. I presume the author must have believed his audience would have zero familiarity with ancient Greece and zero knowledge of logic as it pertains to science. Early on at that point where the author ascribes modern American weights and measures to the Greek empire dependent on ancient beliefs, it was more a matter of attempting to reign in the gag reflex rather than tr ...more

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Jan 28, 2021 A rated it it was ok

Shelves: scifi, science, dnf

It is a shame I couldn't finish this book, because the premise was brilliant: Imagine Alexander the Great didn't die young and his empire lasted for centuries. More importantly, all the ptolemaic physics are true! (earth IS the center of the universe, there are 4 humours in the body, etc). This would be great, except that the story is super sluggish and hard to read. I reached page 100 and then I simply couldn't go on.

...more

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Feb 16, 2018 Amelia rated it it was amazing

This is a book I always wanted to exist, without realizing it. I am so glad someone wrote it in real life.

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Aug 07, 2019 William Golson rated it it was amazing

I loved the way the author took early ideas on science and physics and created working technology around them.

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Oct 21, 2020 JT Neville rated it it was ok

Not as intriguing as the preface indicated, never really caught fire though it had a lot of interesting ideas.

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May 11, 2015 Travis rated it it was amazing

Shelves: speculative-fiction, fantasy

This review has been hidden because it contains spoilers. To view it, click here. A really excellent book which I heard of randomly through a gaming blog recently. I'm a bit sad that I'd never heard of this book before, though I wonder if I would have appreciated it as much if I'd read it early; though perhaps more of the issue is that it demonstrates how much stuff is out there that I would probably really like, but which I won't hear of.

I really like the basic premise of this story, and I feel like the author does a good job of conveying the fact that the world operates ac A really excellent book which I heard of randomly through a gaming blog recently. I'm a bit sad that I'd never heard of this book before, though I wonder if I would have appreciated it as much if I'd read it early; though perhaps more of the issue is that it demonstrates how much stuff is out there that I would probably really like, but which I won't hear of.

I really like the basic premise of this story, and I feel like the author does a good job of conveying the fact that the world operates according to very distinct laws of physics from our world. An interesting point from this is I realized that although the Greeks are often credited with developing the beginning of science and rational inquiry into the world, they were not good scientists, since most of the major theories came from idealized beliefs about things and not from accurate observation of actual phenomenon.

I also really like the way the gods are incorporated into society in the book. I think with modern culture the gods are filtered too much through the lenses of monotheism and rationalism and so the depiction of gods in most fantasy writing feels a bit stiff. Here we have a depiction of religion that takes the source material seriously and is reflective of how believers might actually describe their experiences.

The end is also well done, mostly. I like that having realized the war is pointless, they don't try to force a sudden resolution of hostilities, but rather plant the seeds that may lead to reconciliation down the line. But the literal end of the story, the final lines, are annoyingly abrupt and somewhat ambiguous. Up until the end the gods were only present in subjective experiences, and I assumed that the characters invoked the gods as a sort of metaphor for states of mind and flashes of insight and such, with a commonality of experience resulting from the characters using the same stories to describe and understand their experiences. So it is an unwelcome intrusion at the end when the narrator is suddenly taken up to appear before the gods; is it some weird metaphor for him dieing of stress and reflecting on his life, or are the gods literally real? It is just a small bit at the end (and the beginning sort of) so it doesn't ruin an otherwise very good book, but I would have like a better ending. ...more

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Mar 29, 2013 Sara rated it really liked it

Shelves: sf, f, mash, otro, historical

So. Freaking. Cool.

What if Ptolmaic astronomy and Aristotlian physics were real? What if Aristotle practiced applied science, rather than philosophy? WHAT IF HE JOINED UP WITH ALEXANDER THE GREAT AND USED THEIR COMBINED SCIENTIFIC ADVANCES AND MILITARY STRATEGY TO CONQUER THE WORLD?

Nine hundred years later, the Delian League is still going strong. It is at constant war with the Middle Kingdom. Aias, an Athenian scholar, devises a scheme to steal matter from the sun and create a weapon to end the ...more

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Aug 12, 2014 Mary Catelli rated it really liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: fantasy-other-worlds, science-fiction-other, worlds-of-weird, philosophy-fic

This is an odd one. One could call it hard science fiction and space opera except for the little fact it's another universe. A very different universe. A Ptolemaic ~~solar~~ planetary system. Aristotelian physics.

And Greek history is not quite what you remember from the days of classical Greece onward. Socrates died of honorable old age. Aristotle and Alexander set out to conquer the world with the fruits of Aristotle's discoveries. An attack on the Middle Kingdom led to its uniting under a new Son ...more

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Oct 31, 2017 Ivan rated it it was amazing

Shelves: favorites

I was actually very impressed with this book.

Behind the facade of the question "what if?" lies serious reflection on the situation which gives rise to two explanatory models of the world, irreducible to each other but describing the world with equal validity and efficiency. It is also a comentary on the role of the cultural context in a military conflict and on the significance of history for the practice of science.
There is also a very interesting moral dilemma involving Hellenistic type of et ...more

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May 14, 2014 Deedee rated it liked it · review of another edition

Shelves: locus-debut-novel, steampunk, compton-crook-balticon-winner, compton-crook-balticon-nominee, read-2014-fsf-and-horror, read-in-2014, science-fiction, alternate-history

Still reading this one --- the first 30 pages or so were difficult for me, and I wasn't sure I if I wanted to continue with the novel. The difficulty came because I'm not familiar with ancient Greek beliefs about the nature of the universe, and because the events that caused the alternate timeline are only gradually revealed. I continued reading, and the story started to come together. Now(around page 100) I think I'll finish the story.

Finished. I would have enjoyed the story more if I had a bet ...more

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Mar 20, 2009 Strike rated it really liked it

I find this book a very useful juxtaposition of various opposing forces:
Greek and Tao/Wuxing "science" are both accurate (yet alone are incomplete descriptions of their reality);
the protagonist has a shamanic worldview but pursues hermetic studies;
his government is based on military (Spartan) vs scientific (Athenian) branches (with checks and balances);
the study of philosophy and history have been abandoned in the pursuit of progress, but the protagonist has previously discovered the utility of ...more

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May 03, 2014 Brienna rated it liked it

This was very intriguing. What if Athens, Sparta, and the Han Chinese dominate the modern world, and their sciences are actually true? Earth is at the center of the universe, spontaneous generation provides food for space travellers, and acupuncture can heal stress fractures in a spaceship carved out of the moon. But despite both ancient sciences being true, they hold mutually exclusive worldviews. Can the Greeks and the Chinese, who are at war with each other, accept that there can be two corre ...more

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Feb 23, 2016 Joseph rated it it was amazing

What an amazing trip this was. What if the Ptolemaic model of the universe -epicycles and deferents and all - was correct? What if Spontaneous Generation, the Four Humours, the Five Elements and the confusingly overlapping pantheons of ancient Greek, Hindu, Zoroastrian and other peoples were not just real, but weaponized? What if Alexander's empire, actively aided by Aristotle, endured and perpetuated a cold war with the Chinese empire?

Well, obviously, an Athenian and his (Spartan) Cherokee body ...more

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Jun 17, 2007 Selena rated it it was amazing

Recommends it for: people with a good imagination

Shelves: thebest

this book immersed you in a new world with entirely new rules to go with it. it made things like using a piece of the moon as a spaceship entirely possible.

it was absolutely wonderful and engaging. as far as i know this was richard garfinkle's first book - i sure do hope he writes a second one. for someone who isn't into this much make-believe - i loved it. ...more

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Aug 10, 2007 Michael rated it it was amazing

Recommended to Michael by: se1ena

Shelves: alternate-history

One of the best books I've read this year. The premise (ancient science works and ancient cosmology is correct) really grabbed me. Garfinkle put a lot of thought into things. Classics buffs and history buffs will have a lot of fun with this novel. ...more

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Oct 03, 2007 Chris rated it really liked it

I don't know if this should be sci-fi or fantasy. In this book, ancient Greek science is actually true; ideas like celestial spheres, spontaneous generation and such actually work.

The plot follows a mission to travel to the sun to obtain a chunk of solar material to use as a weapon. ...more

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Jun 30, 2009 Janine rated it liked it

This is an author who really knows ancient Greek history, right down to the order of the planets in the celestial sphere. Lots of fascinating possibilities don't really seem to take off anywhere, though. ...more

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Mar 23, 2012 Mosca rated it really liked it

This is a very unusual science fiction with an admirable goal. I'm still digesting the particulars.

But I recommendation it to all fans of alternative history joined to an alternative science.

This is a unique work; and definitely worth reading. ...more

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Mar 09, 2013 M. C. rated it really liked it

I loved the philosophical angle to this book: the exploration of ancient Greek and Chinese science brought to life. The characters were a bit abstract and heroic, which I enjoyed but someone else might not. This was a great and unique first novel.

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Nov 15, 2013 Grady rated it it was amazing

It's been a number of years since I read this; I just remembered it today, including how very much I enjoyed it. The key is to take the logic of the world on its own terms, and trust the author - he delivers. ...more

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Feb 14, 2015 Bob rated it it was amazing · review of another edition

Wow!

I don't know why I hadn't heard about this book before, but having read it, I can say it was quite a fascinating work of what I might call "hard science fantasy" - albeit in a very different yet familiar universe. Outstanding! ...more

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Mar 23, 2015 Amaya rated it really liked it

It started oh so very boring, but about half way through he finally stopped giving long-winded world-building explanations and technobabble exposition and got to the actual plot. Then it got great, and I couldn't put it down. ...more

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Aug 02, 2015 LOL_BOOKS added it

Shelves: fiction, science-fiction, fantasy, alternate-history, steampunk

REC ME A BOOK YOU L VERY MUCH, EVEN IF IT'S EMBARRASSING.

CELESTIAL MATTERS, BY RICHARD GARFINKLE. IT'S EMBARRASSING BECAUSE I GUESS IT'S CONSIDERED STEAMPUNK, BUT IT'S NOT VICTORIAN OR ANYTHING SO IDK. I THINK IT'S MOAR WEIRD SCI FI.

WHAT ARE YOUR FAVORITE SFF BOOKS? ...more

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Apr 11, 2016 Alex rated it really liked it

Solid 4 stars, I may have gotten more out of it if I was more familiar with old greek or taoist philosophy, but that didn't stop me from enjoying it quite a bit. Plenty of action, a lot of fun world building, and a really great premise! ...more

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About Richard Garfinkle

Richard Garfinkle

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Richard Garfinkle grew up in New York and now lives in Chicago with his wife and children. His first novel, Celestial Matters, won the Compton Crook award for best first science fiction novel of 1996. Garfinkle was twice a finalist for the John W. Campbell Award for best new writer. He has written numerous fiction and nonfiction works on his interests of history, science, imagination, and the pret ...more