Can You Read Bodice Rippers and Still Be a Feminist?
I think a lot of women these days are feeling as if they are being tugged in two directions: on the one hand, we have news stories that clearly show the presence of rape culture in our society, and songs that try to blur the lines when it comes to consent. (By the way, I am SUPER PSYCHED about California's "yes means yes" law.) Women see these things in the news, and of course, we feel angry and upset and afraid; because we do not want these things to happen to us, our family, or our friends.
On the other hand, we have some very anti-feminist romance novels topping the best-sellers lists. And a lot of women who claim to be feminists also like these misogynistic rape-fests masquerading as romance novels. This is not a new thing, either. The "bodice rippers" that were so prominent in the 70s and 80s were incredibly violent towards women, often featuring numerous rapes committed by heroes and villains alike. Yikes! So what gives? Shouldn't there be some kind of cognitive dissonance going on here? How is it possible to enjoy a romance novel that propagates such unhealthy attitudes towards male-female relationships and interactions; sex; and romance, in general?
First, I think it's important to note that there is a difference between rape fantasy and actual rape. Rape fantasy is about control: the woman is in charge of the scenario because it is entirely in her head, and about her desires. In a way, a rape fantasy is a paradox because the fantasy in and of itself implies that consent is implicit (unless, of course, you have OCD, or other psychiatric disorder, and the thoughts are a part of an unwanted, and unpleasant obsession).
The definition of rape is often hazy, but I have always considered it to be any unwanted sexual act, whether it is oral sex, digital stimulation/penetration, or vaginal/anal penetration. The critical part of the definition is that no "yes" was involved. The woman either said "no", or was unable to say "no" (e.g. unconscious, or inhibited by alcohol or drugs), and had the sexual act forced upon her, regardless. In this scenario, the woman has no control because it has been taken from her.
Romance novels may add to rape culture, which is an environment that makes apologies for or enables rapists and also shames women for being sexually autonomous, but they are a symptom, not a cause. It is troubling to see romance novels where the female lead ends up having a happily-ever-after with a rapist hero...but on the other hand, if reading the book allows a woman to be autonomous in fulfilling her own fantasies, isn't that a good thing?
The biggest problem with romance novels occurs when people attempt to translate them into reality. Romance novels are sexual fantasy, and not examples of how people should behave in real life. When fandoms get carried away in their "shipping" and call these rapist, misogynistic men their "book boyfriends," and jokingly call themselves "Mrs. Rapist," they are also contributing to rape culture; they are taking a horrible act, normalizing it, and making it mainstream.
I am not saying that these women want to be raped. But the context of a romance novel puts rape, and other misogynistic acts, into a toxic context where violence against women and rape are shown to be acts of love and devotion by a man so swept away by his passions that he has lost all control. Just think of that pivotal scene in Gone with the Wind...
So is it possible to read bodice rippers and still be a feminist?
Yes. I think it is, as long as you read wisely, with the understanding that fantasy is just that...fantasy. It is when romance novels begin to warp society's expectations for men and women that they begin to grow harmful, especially when they occlude this simple truth: there is only one person who bears any culpability for rape--the rapist.
On the other hand, we have some very anti-feminist romance novels topping the best-sellers lists. And a lot of women who claim to be feminists also like these misogynistic rape-fests masquerading as romance novels. This is not a new thing, either. The "bodice rippers" that were so prominent in the 70s and 80s were incredibly violent towards women, often featuring numerous rapes committed by heroes and villains alike. Yikes! So what gives? Shouldn't there be some kind of cognitive dissonance going on here? How is it possible to enjoy a romance novel that propagates such unhealthy attitudes towards male-female relationships and interactions; sex; and romance, in general?
First, I think it's important to note that there is a difference between rape fantasy and actual rape. Rape fantasy is about control: the woman is in charge of the scenario because it is entirely in her head, and about her desires. In a way, a rape fantasy is a paradox because the fantasy in and of itself implies that consent is implicit (unless, of course, you have OCD, or other psychiatric disorder, and the thoughts are a part of an unwanted, and unpleasant obsession).
The definition of rape is often hazy, but I have always considered it to be any unwanted sexual act, whether it is oral sex, digital stimulation/penetration, or vaginal/anal penetration. The critical part of the definition is that no "yes" was involved. The woman either said "no", or was unable to say "no" (e.g. unconscious, or inhibited by alcohol or drugs), and had the sexual act forced upon her, regardless. In this scenario, the woman has no control because it has been taken from her.
Romance novels may add to rape culture, which is an environment that makes apologies for or enables rapists and also shames women for being sexually autonomous, but they are a symptom, not a cause. It is troubling to see romance novels where the female lead ends up having a happily-ever-after with a rapist hero...but on the other hand, if reading the book allows a woman to be autonomous in fulfilling her own fantasies, isn't that a good thing?
The biggest problem with romance novels occurs when people attempt to translate them into reality. Romance novels are sexual fantasy, and not examples of how people should behave in real life. When fandoms get carried away in their "shipping" and call these rapist, misogynistic men their "book boyfriends," and jokingly call themselves "Mrs. Rapist," they are also contributing to rape culture; they are taking a horrible act, normalizing it, and making it mainstream.
I am not saying that these women want to be raped. But the context of a romance novel puts rape, and other misogynistic acts, into a toxic context where violence against women and rape are shown to be acts of love and devotion by a man so swept away by his passions that he has lost all control. Just think of that pivotal scene in Gone with the Wind...
So is it possible to read bodice rippers and still be a feminist?
Yes. I think it is, as long as you read wisely, with the understanding that fantasy is just that...fantasy. It is when romance novels begin to warp society's expectations for men and women that they begin to grow harmful, especially when they occlude this simple truth: there is only one person who bears any culpability for rape--the rapist.
date
newest »
newest »
Thanks, Steelwhisper. I like your views; that's a really great point about romance novels potentially being an eroticization of rape culture. I'm on my phone right now and can't give you the thoughtful comment your post deserves but I just wanted to say that I appreciated your contribution to the discussion. :)
This is a complicated discussion, and part of me always wonders can I see the forest from the trees. I think a big part of the problem is that not all bodice rippers are the same. Yes, they share aspects: forced submission/rape, power imbalance, and subjugation. But, what happens independent of the acts is where the critical difference is. So there are bodice rippers that are rape fantasy and those that are eroticized rape culture. As a feminist, I think I should be able to fantasize any fucking way I want.
What I want is NOT wrong. It's nobody else's business and telling me I need to conform MY fantasies to fit what society deems acceptable?!
Society can go fuck itself.
I believe adults are responsible for their own actions, not the state, the media or little, green men from outer space. I think our society would greatly benefit from more frank discussions about sex as a natural aspect of life and not something that needs to be either hidden or sensationalized. In a lot of ways, the US is still trying to outgrow it's origin influences of highly polarized religious groups. I'm also sure that trying to get 380 million people to agree to any one thing is futile.
In closing, I think it is highly anti-feminist to tell a woman she can't read a book or shouldn't want to read a book, even if it features misogynistic rapists. Feminism is the right to choose.
Vivian wrote: "This is a complicated discussion, and part of me always wonders can I see the forest from the trees. I think a big part of the problem is that not all bodice rippers are the same. Yes, they share a..."+1
Perfectly stated!
Vivian: "As a feminist, I think I should be able to fantasize any fucking way I want.What I want is NOT wrong. It's nobody else's business and telling me I need to conform MY fantasies to fit what society deems acceptable?!
Society can go fuck itself."
*Slow clap* :)
From my very personal point of view, I derive lots of enjoyment reading about violent, toxic relationships. It gives me a kind of thrill I wouldn't want in my real life. And I don't need the ending to be moralistic either.
"When fandoms get carried away in their "shipping" and call these rapist, misogynistic men their "book boyfriends," and jokingly call themselves "Mrs. Rapist," they are also contributing to rape culture; they are taking a horrible act, normalizing it, and making it mainstream."To some extent, though, isn't that a reclaiming? It's the essence of taking power back - Imma put this tiny rapist dude in my pocket, and let him out whenever I need some inspiration for a one-handed read (or just, you know, just a good solid wank). And he shall rape me and I shall struggle and cry, and it'll be awesome. And at no point will there be perforated eardrums from violent punches or grazed vaginal walls that hurt like a bastard. I won't have to work as a subordinate to him, he won't boast to his friends about how he 'had' me, so they think they can too.
There's nothing unfeminist in enjoying rapefiction, any more than there is anything unhumanist in enjoying graphic horror where people are dissolved into goop and digested by subterranean worms, except for the true faithful who pray to God and are therefore saved.
I think we could do a better job of naming the rape and non-consent, while we enjoy it.
Force of Law - rape. Also delicious. Not seen as rape by most reviewers - at least, few mention it.
Maybe we need a stamp. 'This book contains rape: I loved reading it. '
Ooh, and a t-shirt. "Keep rape in fiction, where it belongs.'
Thank you for the thinky post, Nenia.
Emma Sea wrote: ""Ooh, and a t-shirt. "Keep rape in fiction, where it belongs.'"I'd buy and wear it.
I agree with you, Vivian, that there appear different kinds of bodice rippers, essentially that's what I've been saying.What I want is NOT wrong. It's nobody else's business and telling me I need to conform MY fantasies to fit what society deems acceptable?!
That's a two-sided and twisted argument however, with which I only partially agree.
Yes, society has no business censoring rape fantasies, especially not where it means women's tastes in reading matter get tailored to what a moralistic society deems to be acceptable.
But hell no, the indoctrination of women by rape culture into submitting and accepting said rape culture to their own prolonged detriment is absolutely fecking inacceptable any which way!
And that's the problem with this whole discussion. Media, and books just as much as anything else, can and do form, influence and lead the minds, opinions and behaviours of people. Yes, romances and erotica as much as non-fiction.** That's what "rape culture" means, that rape is so ingrained into every facet of a culture, that reading about it presented in a form enhancing rape culture isn't a transgressive act, nor even a claiming back of anything, it instead is direct maintenance and proliferation of rape culture.
The solution can't be banning or censoring books though. The big problem however is, that with rape culture being helped and aided by some of these books and other media, we all travel constantly two steps forwards and three shuffles backwards.
@Emma, there's a reason why several countries ban extreme violence in all media. It's the same reason why I stated that media enhancing rape culture are not okay per se. So that wasn't really an example countering the argument. Extreme violence in consumer media isn't acceptable to societies wishing for less violence of it's members either. That's just as heated a debate right there.
** That may be unwelcome news to some, but if this isn't the case, then can someone explain to me why certain books get ret-conned to exclude e.g. racist terms or behaviour? Why can't everyone use the n-word anywhere and anyhow they please? Why not "retard" or here it is "spaz"? Why does everyone blindly accept that advertising works (and it does), but have trouble understanding how that and other forms of visual-aural influence are the same thing basically? That will never cease puzzling me.
Vivian wrote: "I believe adults are responsible for their own actions, not the state, the media or little, green men from outer space. I think our society would greatly benefit from more frank discussions about sex as a natural aspect of life and not something that needs to be either hidden or sensationalized. In a lot of ways, the US is still trying to outgrow it's origin influences of highly polarized religious groups. I'm also sure that trying to get 380 million people to agree to any one thing is futile." I'm obviously not arguing from the POV of the USA or Americans. I have my own severe problems with some aspects of the American culture, and yes, a lot of these centre on how sex gets treated there. Why is that a problem for me a continent away? Because American culture, rape culture and sex culture included, influences the whole anglo-saxon world by a mile and then some.
Over here things have become less free, more moralistic and soured, more led by right-wing religious doctrines, less open and less sex-friendly in the past decades and this was directly influenced by the USA! We've had a shitload of new legislation which was directly demanded and prodded for by your government. Our societies here have become less open about sexuality because of American shortcomings. Stating it so baldly is probably not very politic, but that's how it is.
At the same time we've become awash in American raunch and rape culture on just about every level, and that's not been a very happy thing either once one compares with discerning eyes what either cultures were adjusted to prior to that.
So while I obviously agree very much with your statement that the US culture really, really needs to readjust its priggish and religiously drenched approach to sexuality, preferably by a thousand or more notches, I disagree with how the USA have been and keep exporting said approach to sexuality, which for instance is currently criminalising the sex life of hundreds of thousands of youths here.
So yes, I really agree with what you say. I have, though, my problems with the execution.
I love Emma's idea about the "keep rape in fiction" shirts. Someone needs to get on that!
Tim wrote: "I think many people find it hard to understand that just because someone imagines something, that doesn't mean they want it. For example, just because someone thinks about committing suicide (and w..."I have no problem understanding that. I read *and* I write rape fiction.
My "moralistic (as in indoctrinated/religiously indoctrinated) compass" in relation to sexuality is probably far more liberal than that of some of the most liberal ones in general discussion. I'm also a practising sadist, so I actually inflict pain and moderate bodily harm on people for their or my (sexual) gratification. I've helped people in the lifestyle setting up actual rape play as well. By all of which I am definitely a step further than "just reading/thinking".
However, just as much as reading or thinking about something doesn't perforce mean you want to do it, it also doesn't perforce mean that there aren't people who are influenced into doing it, or worse than that, that there aren't people influenced into submitting to those actions.
There appears to be some societal or cultural block which causes the assumption among so many US Americans that "books are just fiction and can't influence/cause harm". I haven't partaken in the US culture from infancy, so I have no idea what cultural/societal accident or background there is for such an assumption and the strong mental block it seems to cause. I'm saying this as neutrally as I can and I don't mean it as an accusation of any sort. I only know, from my vantage point, that this doesn't bear out as assumed. Media can and do influence, regardless of how much one insists they don't.
Good that you mention suicide, one standing example of the effect of books is Goethe's "The Sorrows of Young Werther". It directly caused thousands, indeed tens of thousands of deaths, to the day by the way. Other examples include specific songs by Leonard Cohen, or for instance Ana blogs and books. Or the infamous "Mein Kampf" and "Communist Manifest". In all these cases books/texts have caused exactly what they suggested, feasted and purported. Closing eyes and minds to this isn't a solution. Which is all I am saying here. I have no ready-made solution.
Obviously, and I hope that got clear in my posts, I'm not advertising books should be banned or censored. Just as obviously though, I don't think there should be no reaction at all. Because if some rape-fiction enhances or prolongs rape culture, then everyone is touched by this.
Steelwhisper wrote: "Why can't everyone use the n-word anywhere and anyhow they please? Why not "retard" or here it is "spaz"? "They are used. Everyday. When done so in a public forum , it has to be in a form that is acceptable to the public or it will be derided. That changes according to the forum.
Our societies here have become less open about sexuality because of American shortcomings.
First of all, your country is your own problem. Don't like it. Change it. You've got less then 6 million people. NYC is bigger than that.
Second, imperialism sucks doesn't it? As part of the former British empire, I find your outrage ironic. I'm sure the US will be toadying up to the next power when it falls. Just like in western societies, we still deal with influences of the Roman, French and Austro-Hungarian empires.
Personally, I find the flourishing of bodice rippers along with the surge in the women's rights' movement to be an interesting coincidence in America.
Vivian wrote: "They are used. Everyday. When done so in a public forum , it has to be in a form that is acceptable to the public or it will be derided. That changes according to the forum."Only derided? I'm not so convinced of that, having witnessed quite a bit more than just derision. People have been fired, or forced to publicly apologise. Point is, these days most people do accept that racism isn't acceptable, and the disuse of racist terms is part of the parcel about how to use specific speech and text to abolish something.
First of all, your country is your own problem. Don't like it. Change it. You've got less then 6 million people. NYC is bigger than that.
I so voted. I can't vote against the US administration and presidents twisting the arms of my government or that of others.
As part of the former British empire, I find your outrage ironic.
You might do so, if you knew my background. As you don't, I'm afraid you're simply mistaken in some assumptions. Yes. Imperialism sucks. I fully agree. From every and anyone.
Personally, I find the flourishing of bodice rippers along with the surge in the women's rights' movement to be an interesting coincidence in America.
Which surge of which women's rights' movement? I see the opposite happening. We are getting more gendering, the glass ceiling hasn't been broached in any significant manner anywhere, the religious/conservative right is gaining massive influence again and so on and forth. To me the pendulum, if there is any, is swinging backwards instead of further advancing female equality.
In the US, bodice rippers and the women's rights' movement were hand in hand in the 1970s. Mildly interesting article from Atlantic Monthly, Beyond Bodice-Rippers: How Romance Novels Came to Embrace Feminism
But I agree with Emma's statement that rape fantasies have a basis in agency and control. And while it doesn't at first glance seem to be related to feminism it is. Bodice rippers were the first expressions of women taking control of their bodies.
A younger family member wrote a compelling paper regarding feminism and I found her conclusion very interesting. We can't rewrite and forward women's equality without rewriting what constitutes masculinity.
Article discussing the television series based on Outlander and its premiere in Time magazine: Outlander Recap: Feminism and Time Travel in a Bodice-ripping Romance? Sure!
I don't have any solutions, here, just a few observations.1) Humans are a violent species. We got off the savannah by evolving into a merciless and driven pursuit predator; one that uses sex as a tool for social status, and social status as a tool for sex.
2) Fiction that glorifies and normalises sexual violence is only one facet of that sparkly D20 die that is the media industrial complex. Changing written fiction will change nothing about culture.
3) The current popularity of BDSM fics, rapefics, non-consent fics, and their concommitant preponderance in real life is a reflection of global neoliberalism, in which existence outside of a capitalist structure - in which everything is a transaction based on power and subject to a calculation of personal profit and loss - is literally unthinkable. We have no frame of reference outside capitalist culture with which to envision how an alternative would work.
This being so, rape fiction is more than eroticism of rape culture, it's a eroticisation of culture. This is where we are as humans. Look what we made for ourselves.
Emma Sea wrote: "I don't have any solutions, here, just a few observations.1) Humans are a violent species. We got off the savannah by evolving into a merciless and driven pursuit predator; one that uses sex as a..."
Yeah... I have no intelligent response to all these awesome comments at the moment after happy hour. BUT...
2) Fiction that glorifies and normalises sexual violence is only one facet of that sparkly D20 die that is the media industrial complex. Changing written fiction will change nothing about culture.
Did you just D&D us? Holy Dodecahedrons! *sips Planters Punch*
you'll always be my DM, Vivian *sharpens pencil, waves character sheet*
Emma Sea wrote: "3) The current popularity of BDSM fics, rapefics, non-consent fics, and their concommitant preponderance in real life is a reflection of global neoliberalism, in which existence outside of a capitalist structure - in which everything is a transaction based on power and subject to a calculation of personal profit and loss - is literally unthinkable. We have no frame of reference outside capitalist culture with which to envision how an alternative would work.."This would have been even sexier with a footnote. *eyebrow waggle*
Seriously, this is good. Sex is a commodity. Self-indulgent fantasies are a commodity.
This being so, rape fiction is more than eroticism of rape culture, it's a eroticisation of culture. This is where we are as humans. Look what we made for ourselves.
I guess the question here is, WHO is the WE? As the consumer is female then the logically conclusion would women. But... if we are brainwashed then the conclusion is our patriarchal overlords.
I side with women as a reclamation of self.
I think it's like journalists talk about people "panicking" is a disaster.But people don't panic in a disaster. People (in general) make logical decisions and rational choices based on the limited information they have; they just needed more information to make better decisions. And in a disaster there is an outside to achieve. You can escape the flames to a place where it is possible to only observe.
No one is brainwashed, they - we - are making rational decisions based on the culture around us. How, exactly, am I going to resist culture, given that there is nowhere outside it to stand and watch? I'm going to have a job, a boss, a start time and a finish time, a sense of sublimating my own desires in order to commodify myself. Or, jobless, to meet the requirements for social security/social welfare; exactly the same process.
All women make the patriarchal bargain to some extent, because we see no viable choice - there is no viable choice. This isn't brainwashing, it's survival in a system with no alternative. Men make the patriarchal bargain too - masculinity is as much a tyranny as femininity is. Rapefics reflect the relationships of transactions we are surrounded with. We - as women - pick them because they resonate with us.
The subversion of the genre - m/m, f/f, lgbtqi/a - is the only thing that gives me strength to get up in the morning, sometimes :)
Emma Sea wrote: "oh look, and everybody's arguing about the (mythical?) female orgasm again."I have first hand evidence that it is not mythical. And left hand, too.
I do apologize if this doesn't make much sense. I tried to put my thoughts into the best words I could, but alas, I am not sure it is right.
Are we all in agreement that a rape fiction is just that, a work of fiction? As such, it is merely a fantasy until someone puts those thoughts into actions, and then it becomes unequivocally wrong. I agree that works can and do influence people, but how do we regulate that or can we even do so?
If anyone knows more about this next bit, please do correct me if I am wrong. When used in the BDSM reference, a "rape fantasy" still has controls (safe words and levels of trust) that isn't a part of rape. Sexual assault, in any way, is a total loss of control and a violation. To break it down like this seems cold, but it is to further my questions.
In that view, is it not something of a reclamation of self and control to willingly CHOOSE (because it is a choice) to read a piece of fiction that has rape or violence against women in it? The reader has the power to stop the act at any time by not finishing the book, page, or even sentence. In this way, we can confront the thing, view it for what it is, lose our fear of speaking it, and be quicker to speak up if it occurs to us/someone we care for? In this way, does it not aid in the coming forward of victims and the doling out of justice?
Am I way off on this or over thinking? Possibly, but that is why I wrangled my thoughts together, for input.
Are we all in agreement that a rape fiction is just that, a work of fiction? As such, it is merely a fantasy until someone puts those thoughts into actions, and then it becomes unequivocally wrong. I agree that works can and do influence people, but how do we regulate that or can we even do so?
If anyone knows more about this next bit, please do correct me if I am wrong. When used in the BDSM reference, a "rape fantasy" still has controls (safe words and levels of trust) that isn't a part of rape. Sexual assault, in any way, is a total loss of control and a violation. To break it down like this seems cold, but it is to further my questions.
In that view, is it not something of a reclamation of self and control to willingly CHOOSE (because it is a choice) to read a piece of fiction that has rape or violence against women in it? The reader has the power to stop the act at any time by not finishing the book, page, or even sentence. In this way, we can confront the thing, view it for what it is, lose our fear of speaking it, and be quicker to speak up if it occurs to us/someone we care for? In this way, does it not aid in the coming forward of victims and the doling out of justice?
Am I way off on this or over thinking? Possibly, but that is why I wrangled my thoughts together, for input.
Loki (of Smartassgard) wrote: "lose our fear of speaking it"I like this point :)
I agree. Fear and stigma walk hand in hand.
Vivian wrote: "Emma Sea wrote: "oh look, and everybody's arguing about the (mythical?) female orgasm again."I have first hand evidence that it is not mythical. And left hand, too."
Woa, with both hands? You're skilled. I only have the right hand evidence one. :)
Vivian wrote: "As a feminist, I think I should be able to fantasize any fucking way I want.What I want is NOT wrong. It's nobody else's business and telling me I need to conform MY fantasies to fit what society deems acceptable?!
Society can go fuck itself. "
Fair, but if we think like that, than we must let men fantasize about raping women too. So, a man is allowed to fantasize about rape, as long as he keeps it in his fantasies... To me, it's disturbing. And dangerous.
Amanda wrote: "Fair, but if we think like that, than we must let men fantasize about raping women too. So, a man is allowed to fantasize about rape, as long as he keeps it in his fantasies... To me, it's disturbing. And dangerous. "But if I can fantasize about being raped, but under no circumstance want to be raped, surely yes, I do have to accept people can fantasize about raping, without wanting to rape?
Do I have to condemn the fantasy because I condemn the act?
I agree with Emma, fantasy is separate from actually wanting to indulge in an act. Sexual fantasies often have very little to do with sex itself. I am not a psychology expert so my opinions are just that. Fantasy or ideation, like many things, can be used in multiple ways. Here's a better definition from the psychology wiki:
[Fantasy]] - A psychological state in which an individual generates alternate scenarios, creates fantasy worlds, or otherwise imagines things in a way that may contradict external reality. In this context, ideation may be considered constructive or escapist, creative or destructive, depending on the lens through which this state of mind is being observed. --Psychology Wiki
Condemning someone who hasn't acted actually sounds a lot more dangerous and scary to me. Terrifying that one can be guilty without having done anything. I also think that demonizing someone for their fantasies is just as reprehensible shaming another for theirs.
I'm however not completely convinced that these romances are actual rape fantasies. Instead the shoe may be on the other foot, and they are an eroticisation of current rape culture. A pointer towards this might be the parallel eroticisation of violence where acted out upon women. And a wagonload of books which eroticise actual abuse.
I also have a distinct problem with that very typical US American assumption that "books are just fantasies/fantasy". Sorry, no, not at all. From my European vantage point (which includes quite some research as well) I can't underwrite this. Books influence, even such which are meant as mere fantasies. Which, by the way, was why bodice rippers were ostracised in the 1980s. Or why certain racist or sexist words can't be used anymore.