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This is a topic that interests me quite a bit, but will spare you all my wandering thoughts on it. Thanks for posting!;P
It's true that we are essentially products of our environment. For whatever reasons, your environment caused/allowed you to write fantasy and sci-fi and horror. The way that you have applied those talents to our beloved m/m (gay, bi, trans) romance is exactly what works for me. Reading authors in any genre that push at boundaries and advance the evolution of their writing is a wonderful thing to witness. Who wants to become stagnated either in what they write or read?
LOL I find myself having to rewrite terminology that I think will turn off readers. I love the smell of male sweat and anything to do with scent.Personally, I like that whole fuck into bruises thing--but more from really rough hard sex, not just a tight grip. =D
I get hot and bothered by anything to do with come--felching included (and maybe topping the list). I probably turn off a lot of readers, but it's what works for me. Sometimes I almost censor myself (and lots of times I do it outright).
Do you do that at all? Exchange words or not include certain scenes?
Dani wrote: "I probably turn off a lot of readers, but it's what works for me. Sometimes I almost censor myself (and lots of times I do it outright)."Nononononono DANI! You have to stop this because the facial scene in Shattered Glass was like the hottest thing ever :D Now I want you to convince me more gross sounding stuff can be sexy and adorable!
<<< Hetero female who doesn't care to see bruises on women but can totally dig it in a m/m sex scene. Is that wrong?
Isa wrote: "Dani wrote: "I probably turn off a lot of readers, but it's what works for me. Sometimes I almost censor myself (and lots of times I do it outright)."Nononononono DANI! You have to stop this beca..."
No worries there. I can't NOT write about come.
I meant censoring in what Aleks was talking about in
terms of gay porn dialogue. I guess I'm the only one that likes that LOL.
>.>
<.<
Then again, I love porn. I just wish it had less talking and plots nowadays >8( That's just...awkward.
Do romance authors "hold back" because they think their audience can't (or won't) handle a more descriptive, uh, description? 'Cus, that would be a shame. I suppose you have to know your audience but for me the grittier and more "in my face", the better.
LisaT - We Are Qhuay! wrote: "Do romance authors "hold back" because they think their audience can't (or won't) handle a more descriptive, uh, description? 'Cus, that would be a shame. I suppose you have to know your audience..."Dunno. I was wondering about this too. I censor the sounds that Aleks was talking about (the one's tha tmake him laugh), but only because I know they sound cheesy to a LOT of people. It's like how I learned that using euphemisms for cock--shaft etc--weren't as visceral as, well, cock.
Is it self-censoring or learning?
Actually I think I've gotten more graphic O.o But then I'm an argumentative and contrary person. A bunch of people telling me "don't do this!" just makes me more determined to do it and do it AWESOME.
Isa - I don't think you need to adjust, to be honest. Our genre is so large and so diverse, I think there's a reader for every kind of writer. :) Though from what I can see, the contemporaries who best mimick the tropes of het romance are doing very well sales-wise. Syfy - please, do share. I think it's an interesting discussion that can illuminate quite a few things. :) I've only started sketching it out. :)
Lisa - Thank you. I always considered that my "fingerprint" - that "coming in from the mainstream, oops, wrong door, no, hell, actually RIGHT DOOR!" thing I have going. (There are others like me, of course, I'm not 100% unique snowflake there. :) )
Dani - I'm keeping a careful eye on my violence level and how explicit I am about brutality, force and consent. Personally, I love consent play. My guys don't have to like each other to fuck each other's brains out. Another thing I do is mixed menages (big taboo in m/m - though I like the chemistry a woman brings to the table, err, bed), or non-monogamous couples (which I'm taking from real life, although personally I'm a bisexual serial monogamist). I also used to sometimes kill love interests.
I know I've definitely kept these elements out for worry of readership or censored myself. Where self-censorship didn't work (Test of Faith), I went with alternative publishers (Test of Faith was turned down by EVERY publisher in the genre). Part of the drive behind Riptide is that we can take editorial risks on texts that are outside the box. (Btw, when am I getting something from you?)
LisaT - As a guy with quite a bit of violence and strong muscly guys in my writing, bruises work for me, but they often come from punching or other forms of violence, not from gripping too hard. :)
Isa - I've recently gone "less graphic" - I have 27k of a novel and there's one sex scene, but it's not sexy at all. O_O
Very interesting Aleks, thank you :)I have to say that when I first started reading m/m I was looking more for book written by males (here I have to probably explain that to me male is someone who feels male, regardless of the gender he was born with), simply because I was looking for characters to be as "authentic" as possible.
Then I simply started reading every author that picked up my interest, and learned what worked and didn't work for me.
"Isa - I've recently gone "less graphic" - I have 27k of a novel and there's one sex scene, but it's not sexy at all. O_O "
This sounds promising.
Meg - It's a common misconception, and I keep encountering it, and I'm not judging such readers. (I mean, *I* am going to confuse them a great deal and can only, humbly, "beg forgiveness" - add a dash of sarcasm here). :) Weirdly enough, authenticity is not gender-related at all. I've read terribly dishonest things from both genders (and everybody in between). There's just good, honest writing to me and bad lying. :) But yeah, I think "learning what works" is the natural progression of that - much like we develop our tastes in pretty much anything (music, movies, food) by trying as much as possible. :)And - that nearly sex-less book is my WWII novel. :)
I am absolutely on the same page as you guys with the bruises. Yay for rough sex! And one day...one day I will kill a love interest! It MUST happen! :)
Aleksandr wrote: "Lisa - hey, you tried! Full points for that. :)"Lol! *shakes fist * And I would have got away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!
Aleksandr wrote: "Hmmm, sounds interesting... (hope you're writing! Write, write like the wind!)"Always!
I understand that there must be some technique in writing, like in any form of art.What I hate is the idea that I will be delivered some "prêt-à-penser", some pre-chewed product. I like to be surprised, I like unexpected open doors, that is the salt of life. Nobody is allowed to decide for me what I can like, dislike, what I can or cannot take, what will touch me... Most of the books I adored were not what I expected them to be and I can cope with no happy ending if you hand me tissues!
What is authenticity exactly? The definition must be clear because it seems to me that we are not very far from authenticity deciding who is allowed to write what. And I see something ugly lurking in the corner.
You know what, I don't even remember how I came to read m/m. For me, it's more about the story and there must be things that touch me that are specifically m/m but I don't really know what. Other combinations work for me too as long as the story is good and that I like the "flavour".
Last word :"flavour" should be unique and then, authenticity would have something to do with sincerity. I think you and Dani are on this side of the definition.
Last last word : the voyeurist in me likes explicit sex scenes.
Aleksandr wrote: "Isa - I've recently gone "less graphic" - I have 27k of a novel and there's one sex scene, but it's not sexy at all. O_O "I think that's the advantage of running your own publishing company though :) Just got back edits on an upcoming release with two pretty explicit sex scenes ... editor wants me to add a third. Find myself thinking "...Really? -_-" I mean I did it and I think it works okay but sometimes this feels an awful lot like hedging bets.
I've learned that when my editor says "turn up the heat in this scene" what she means is "get to the coming part" because I tend to find the great-white-orgasm boring and fade to black. The foreplay is what's sexy to me ... that's very much a fanfiction style thing: really graphic foreplay/setup then a one sentence vague orgasm and lots of cuddles.
Lisa wrote: "I am absolutely on the same page as you guys with the bruises. Yay for rough sex!
And one day...one day I will kill a love interest! It MUST happen! :)"
HA! I'd like to see you try :D Honestly I think this should happen more often. There are some books where the happy ending just made me O.o WTF? cause it didn't fit with ANYTHING ELSE.
Aleksandr wrote: "Dani - I'm keeping a careful eye on my violence level and how explicit I am about brutality, force and consent. Personally, I love consent play. My guys don't have to like each other to fuck each other's brains out. Another thing I do is mixed menages (big taboo in m/m - though I like the chemistry a woman brings to the table, err, bed), or non-monogamous couples (which I'm taking from real life, although personally I'm a bisexual serial monogamist). I also used to sometimes kill love interests.I know I've definitely kept these elements out for worry of readership or censored myself. Where self-censorship didn't work (Test of Faith), I went with alternative publishers (Test of Faith was turned down by EVERY publisher in the genre). Part of the drive behind Riptide is that we can take editorial risks on texts that are outside the box. (Btw, when am I getting something from you?) "
THat's one of the things I love about self-publishing, I don't make any concessions except to myself. I did think about that facial shot in SG, but I kept writing it back in because it just worked for the characters and I thought it was hot too. Then again, I figured 10 people would be buying my book, so I said fuckit. =D
I really like Riptide just for the fact that they don't control that aspects of books. No telling people to add sex scenes because it sells. It's about the integrity of the book. That's ridiculously important to me. While I may censor myself, it would never be at the expense of the story/character's integrity. It's more about wanting things to remain sexy.
OTOH, I had always planned on killing the LI in SG. Oddly enough, it was my husband who convinced me not to. I guess, in that way, he censored me. But he was right about it.
Good luck, Lisa, lol, I'm not sure I could do it now, as tempted as I am. And I'm so very tempted with lots of my characters.
Where does the temptation to kill characters come from? I hate reading stories like that. ABSOLUTELY hate it. Yet, I want to write it and originally planned to write it. *boggle*
Aleksandr wrote: "(Btw, when am I getting something from you?) "
Er...
<.<
>.>
hah. I just threw out all my progress on NSI. Sixty thousand words tossed away. I'm starting all over again. So, um, short answer: a while! LOL
Ilhem – I can see where you’re coming from – I recently read a column that decried that all hot young (literary) American writers sounded all the same because they went to the same MFA programmes and essentially use the same stylistic devices in the same way. I think genre is more forgiving, though, and there *are* things that are bad craft-wise (knowing what POV is and how to use it well is important). However, many books are dynamic – that is, they surprise their authors and then hopefully their readers. You can attempt to harness those Powers of Chaos/Creation, but I doubt any author really controls them or summons them freely at will. “Authenticity” is one of those buzzwords that get abused a lot, but you can still tell when you encounter it. I think it’s the difference between falling back on the well-worn clichés and tropes of whatever you’re writing (borrowing the words from the book you’ve just read) and actually *feel* the emotion and actually inquire how it feels (and when you look at what those emotions do in your own heart, some authors end up pretty surprised, being faced with the real thing and then trying to put it honestly into words without screwing it up or taking the easy road). It’s the difference between a sentence like “he would die for her” and actually go deep into the character and look exactly at the sacrifices he’d make, and really feel the character’s anxiety and tension and boundless love. For the reader it’s the difference between “*yawn*, I’ve read that before” and “oh wow! That’s EXACTLY what it feels like.”
I’d never forbid anybody to write what they want (as long as it’s not against the law), but as a reader, I choose the good authors over the bad authors. :)
And yes, my favourite authors have that magic, honesty, authenticity. It’s also what I desperately hunger for when I open Riptide’s submissions inbox: “Just today, give me one author with heart, soul, mind, and courage.”
And – I like sex. I like reading it, I like writing it. :) But sometimes, sex doesn’t fit the characters or mood, and in this case, the character is too terrified to feel amorous. I’m hoping it’ll change, but he hasn’t been in the mood for sex since the start. When it happens, I assume it’ll hit with the force of a 50-pounder.
Isa – It is! Biggest boon ever (though even I get stories turned down, so it’s not the easy route ). Personally I think sex scenes need to do the same thing as all other scenes – reveal character, drive plot, increase the stakes (I may have forgotten something). We once received a manuscript originally intended for a much “pornier” house and I think we cut 3-4 sex scenes and the book became twice as good. But the golden rule is – authors need to write at the heat level/frequency they are “naturally comfortable” with, and that can vary from book to book, too.
I just want more good stories. And I'm one of those jaded readers who lives to be grabbed by the throat and sucked into a story. That's happened exactly twice this year with my m/m reads: Aleks's Dark Soul stories and Dani's Shattered Glass (not a pander, guys. Suck it up.) I've had other enjoyable reads (and lots of crap ones!!), but those two were awesome.
What was great about them is that they were full of life and honest and fresh and neither of them gave into "this is the formula that sells, so this is what I'll write". Now Dani has said he wasn't expecting any sales *snort*, but Aleks put them out there with all the visibility of his publishing house behind what was a rather risky concept. I think we need more of this kind of writing/publishing. I KNOW it has to be scary as fuck and that as a business decision it feels too risky. But we need more people willing to leap of cliffs like this and try new things. Not all the time and not every time, but enough to keep m/m from getting too ossified with formulaic coming of age and GFY stories
What was great about them is that they were full of life and honest and fresh and neither of them gave into "this is the formula that sells, so this is what I'll write". Now Dani has said he wasn't expecting any sales *snort*, but Aleks put them out there with all the visibility of his publishing house behind what was a rather risky concept. I think we need more of this kind of writing/publishing. I KNOW it has to be scary as fuck and that as a business decision it feels too risky. But we need more people willing to leap of cliffs like this and try new things. Not all the time and not every time, but enough to keep m/m from getting too ossified with formulaic coming of age and GFY stories
Great post and great discussion. Absolutely hitting the right spot for me at the moment, as I'm doubting myself in my current WIP and how far I should go. I've been criticised for going too far in the past, but am just about to start today's work, and this has buoyed me up. I figure - if it feels right, go with it. I'm tired of worrying about whether what I'm writing is going to meet some imaginary reader's expectations or not. The first joy of writing is in satisfying one's self.
Trying this comment again. Because GR hates me apparently! >8( And then it doesn't save your comment after EFFING IT UP!@Kate What's amazed me about the really different stories (mine, Lisa's, Aleks's), the ones that strayed from normal, are really doing well. I hope this emboldens other writers to really move outside the box.
There's too much timidity within all romance imo.
Dani wrote: There's too much timidity within all romance imo. Agreed, Dani! Let's push some boundaries and mix up some genres and see what happens. :)
Kate - I agree. I'm the same when I wear my reader hat. The same old, well-worn stuff can be nice (there is such a thing as mental comfort food), but I prefer authors who stretch the genre (hurr-hurr). Personally, I'm not sure I can write at that level of intensity *every* time. The stars need to align, and they don't always do. I think Skybound is the next one though. That story had me breathless and halfway in tears while I wrote it. If I manage to produce one text at that quality a year, I'd be immensely proud. The problem is, you can't ever tell whether it's a winner or not, so you have to keep writing in the hope that the one you're just doing is "another winner". If that makes any sense. :)
But yeah, Riptide is there in part to follow that vision. For us, the quality of the writing is extrwemely important, and that means sometimes backing total genre mavericks or new voices. As our cost basis and overheads grow, it becomes a bigger financial risk, though, no doubt about it. I can totally see why mny publishers in the genre exclusivel back "sex, sex, sex" and "same old". It's nice to make a profit. :)
Todd - I'd say, follow the Muse. Every time I've taken a risk, it has paid off for me, maybe not necessarily financially (though my sales are growing, which may in part be my increased visibility in the genre and the more concerted marketing effort of Riptide compared to my very poor shilling before I signed up with them), then as an artist. But I'm immensely privileged in that I have a day job and don't need to make a dollar on anything I do (though it's nice and I'm hoping to pay off my mortgage faster this way), so I'm not the best person to give advice on what to write. Personally, I find writing to formula soul-crunching. I can't do it. And I have to be honest with my characters, and if that means doing incest (as in Dark Soul), or killing characters (Test of Faith), or allowing characters to find, err, creative living arrangements, then so be it.
Generally speaking, a well-written storywill find its readers. It might be a slower "build", and you might have to win one reader at a time, but it can be done.
Dani - it would be interesting to swap sales numbers, but the more "conventional" my stories, the more I sell. "Transit" has vastly outperformed "Scorpion". "Country Mouse" is my biggest seller ever, by a huge margin. (I love that story, no mistake, totally enjoyed writing it, but it fits into a specific flavour in the market.) "Dark Soul" has amazing reviews and is "critically acclaimed" by everybody (including Dear Author) - sales wise, it can't touch "Country Mouse". Which is not griping, I'm grateful to anybody who reads anything from me, but those are the numbers.
Aleksandr wrote: "Dani - it would be interesting to swap sales numbers, but the more "conventional" my stories, the more I sell. "Transit" has vastly outperformed "Scorpion". "Country Mouse" is my biggest seller eve..."I hear you about the numbers, and I can understand also authors not wanting to risk too much.
This being said though, even if I liked Country Mouse (and I did, included the sadistic gym instructor, LOL) Dark Soul was something completely different, something one can't forget.
Sometimes even if it's risky, it may be worth it to be remembered for something not only good, but that left a mark in whoever read it.
I hope I made sense here.
Darkm - For me, it absolutely does. But I'm also aware that I'm in a privileged position. I know of m/m authors who need the royalty cheque to buy groceries or pay their utilities bills, so they absolutely have to focus on maximising their sales. (Also, Josh is a recurring character. He tortures all my financial guys in London - he even dates one for a while... well, almost. It doesn't quite work out, because the guy in question is a bit of a transphobic asshole. :) )
"Josh is a recurring character. He tortures all my financial guys in London - he even dates one for a while... well, almost. It doesn't quite work out, because the guy in question is a bit of a transphobic asshole. :)"I sincerely hope he finds someone who can appreciate him.
Hell, I had only a glimpse of him and liked him instantly!
I hear you about the need to sell books some people have, and I'd never question that.
I simply think that if one can write what he/she likes, push boundaries and be known for something unique it's also a huge reward. :)
Aleksandr wrote: "(Also, Josh is a recurring character. He tortures all my financial guys in London - he even dates one for a while... well, almost. It doesn't quite work out, because the guy in question is a bit of a transphobic asshole. :) )"Hmmm? *is verra intrigued*
And yes, I can tell almost immediately if the book is written by a formula or is an honest effort. I love and respect authors who are brave enough to write unconventional books that challenge the reader, though I really enjoy the traditional stuff, too. :)
As for those authors who pay bills from their royalty cheques... I can only hope that they'll become rich enough one day to write what the stories they really want!
(hope I was comprehensible :D )
Aleksandr wrote: "Dani - it would be interesting to swap sales numbers, but the more "conventional" my stories, the more I sell. "Transit" has vastly outperformed "Scorpion". "Country Mouse" is my biggest seller eve..."Think we'd have to wait until I had some other stories out =D (which at this rate, will be when I'm 110! heh)
Darkm - anybody who takes no shit from a finance guy is by default awesome. And what an unlikely romance hero - snarky, take-no-prisoners hardcore and short. Also, he's a top.Aija - In an ideal world, authors all make a decent (not extravagant, but dignified would be nice) living at the things they really want to do. :)
Dani - I think you need a whipping to boost productivity. :)
Dani, you probably just take a reading break. I find the best inspiration usually comes from frustration over what everyone else is writing *lol*
"Darkm - anybody who takes no shit from a finance guy is by default awesome. And what an unlikely romance hero - snarky, take-no-prisoners hardcore and short. Also, he's a top."That's a great romance hero!
Hell, he feels real!
Dani, we really don't mind waiting to have your stories, it's worth it :)
*ears perk up*
Whipping Dani? Can I help??!
Whipping Dani? Can I help??!
LOL Isa wants to send me to teh corner with books.Darkm wants to hug me
and you two want to beat me.
If I chose all three would that make me schizophrenic or greedy?
Dani wrote: "LOL Isa wants to send me to teh corner with books.
Darkm wants to hug me
and you two want to beat me.
If I chose all three would that make me schizophrenic or greedy?"
Do them sequentially: books, whipping, hugs. :D You know we all love ya. ^.^
Darkm wants to hug me
and you two want to beat me.
If I chose all three would that make me schizophrenic or greedy?"
Do them sequentially: books, whipping, hugs. :D You know we all love ya. ^.^
Dani wrote: "Aleksandr wrote: "Dani - I'm keeping a careful eye on my violence level and how explicit I am about brutality, force and consent. Personally, I love consent play. My guys don't have to like each ot..."Love your writing Aleksandr and Dani. COUNTERPUNCH is one of my favorites and I absolutely loved SHATTERED GLASS. Dani....thank your husband....if you killed off one of the main LI in the book, I don't think I would continue reading your work so obsessively.
SA Reid did it in her book PROTECTION and it worked. But I think that was a rare an occasion.
The readers I am aware of are looking for a good story with some explicit (yeah rough and bruising! ) sex! Books that imply, fade out or are always unrequited become boring and frustrating.
Aleksandr, I am agreement with you 100% re: Manna Francis...any
Idea of more of her work coming out?
Alie38 - I'm hoping to write more of that soon, too. (The project I'm drafting has that kind of chemistry...)Re - Manna Francis. I think she's on Goodreads, so maybe ask her. I'd read anything by her. I'm a big fan.




Oh God, please don't change that D:
For record... I came out of fanfiction and WHOA-BOY the adjustment is crazy difficult. I'm still not 100% comfortable with the proper "flavor" and I'm not sure I want to be.