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Horea
(last edited Jun 26, 2016 11:10AM)
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Jun 26, 2016 11:09AM
You could vote third party though. You'll never get true pluralism if everyone always thinks of going with a third option as "throwing away your vote". And, to paraphrase Jill Stein, always voting for the lesser evil is a sure way of eventually getting that greater evil anyway.
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As a reader (and fan of your books) and voter who just had her poor British-European heart broken, this is an awesome piece. My fear at the moment is not only of the downright nasty domestic consequences of this vote, but that Trump could win in November and this volley of hatred could snowball into something truly, honest to god frightening.
Excellent article, Hugh. It's somewhat relieving to read something sensible on the issue, amidst a depressing tide of lunacy. One of the big problems with the Remain campaign was that the dilemma was largely presented to the British people as an economic dice-throw and little more. The impression was along the lines of: "Do you think we'd be richer? We're worried we won't. Vote Remain".To me, this brushed past what it was really about; cultural openness, inclusion and moving forward. Building commonality is progressive. It wasn't about the damn perks. It's like questioning if you should leave your job as an ambulance driver because the breakroom coffee isn't nice enough.
The disturbing thing about this trend of insularity and xenophobia is that its transmission medium seems to be public apathy toward evidence. The Leave campaign in this case was factually bankrupt, gaining support from lies (£350 million a week for the NHS, abandoned the very morning after) promises that were impossible (like stopping Free Movement while somehow maintaining full access to the Free Market). Remain lied too, of course; worried they weren't being economically scary enough. When both had their stats scrutinized, the "balanced" media managed to paint the whole thing as "nobody knows". Little wonder that it was almost a 50/50 split then (Leave just lied that little bit harder).
I sincerely hope that the US doesn't fall into the same kind of trap. Trump's supporters, like the Brexiters, don't care for your "facts" or your "experts". This factual relativism is the only thing that allows such poisonous rubbish to get anywhere. But when the morning after comes you're left with a mess, a betrayed public and no accountability.
great insights Hugh and I couldnt agree more...what a shame what the UK has done, and probably opened the door for much more such antics...
If you are correct and we are all racist and xenophobic then those words are not as bad as people like to think. They don't all equal hate and violence and discrimination necessarily. It always feels like a straw man to me. If the majority of people are racist it's merely a self preservation mechanism. It's how you whittle the massively shrinking world to a manageable collection of people as a means of self preservation. It doesn't have to be evil, rancorous, violent or discriminatory. Teaching people that that is why they may have biases is more constructive than calling everyone a bigot the way the mass media tends to do. We're designed to be tribalistic and I think it's impossible to be genuinely empathetic to 7 billion other people, and even more so I think it's insane to ask someone to go against their personal needs for so many others.
Doesn't mean we can't evolve to care about global problems and even help when we can but to ask people to diminish the quality of their lives for the benefit of what usually tends more to be corporate greed and corruption, rather than helping raise the poor from poverty, I think is wrong.
I don't think Trump and the UK Brexiters are tapping solely into some deep seeded prejudice, rather they are articulating (very badly in my opinion) the feeling many people have that our systems do not work us the people anymore. Those in charge have failed us over and over and none of them are ever held responsible. Even if the unwashed masses cannot articulate that notion clearly themselves, they know when they are being screwed.
I think globalism has proven bad as a whole (ask the factory workers in Bangladesh) because while it may very slowly help impoverished nations out of poverty, doing so hurts the quality of life for others. There are other ways without corporations shitting all over poor countries with our horrible trade deals. You can't have rich without poor and if you think the rich will ever give up being rich so we can all have an equal part of the pie you may be too optimistic.
The problem is, has been, and always will be, corporations and the governments they bought off profiting from cheap labor, no matter where it comes from or where it exists in the global population.
The right has always used inflammatory language to keep people divided. The Southern Strategy was a prime example. But now, it is the left even more, with their constant race baiting and everyone is racist rhetoric. The Southern Poverty Law Center makes a mint off calling everyone a racist and terrorist organization.
Now I'm not saying Trump and others don't use this tactic to keep us all divided but to imagine a world without borders is like a bunch of refugees jumping into a boat that is only built for two. Sure, you can build a bigger, better boat and eventually you may be able to accommodate most of them, but you can't just let everyone jump in all at once. First you need to build that boat.
There is no hate in my heart and the refugee crisis is caused partly by climate change and mostly by the military industrial complex and its allies. Much of the migrant workers from Mexico, Central and South America don't come here for a better life, they come because , again, our trade deals and domestic economic policy (corn subsidies for one) have screwed their countries economies over.
Not to mention the corrupt and oppressive people we put in power and support in those countries all in the name of good old free market capitalism. Maybe the average racist xenophobe isn't aware of all that and maybe they don't care, but let's not pretend it is purely some hate inside that makes them not want immigration.
Maybe all this shit is obvious but I don't think it irrelevant.
Just my opinion, Hugh. Loved Wool by the way and I have been on the self-publishing train since I read your work. So, thanks!
And those of us in Arizona who live within 25 miles of the Mexican border? We have to pass through checkpoints to visit the rest of the US. The checkpoints are on all the highways going north, even on our Interstate. Most are open 24/7. A few close very occasionally. Everyone is stopped, most are asked to declare citizenship, many are questioned even more. The browner your skin, the more likely the questions. People violating laws over which Border Patrol have no jurisdiction are pulled over and detained until the local authorities arrive. You may say that it's okay to detain someone who appears to have, for example, been drinking. But, it means that we have less civil rights than you. And, yes, they can and do search vehicles if they've a mind to. They also patrol our highways. They especially love to search horse trailers and have followed us with helicopters (because we live extremely close to the border, a crime by territorial association?) and stopped us more than once to search the trailer while on our way to a 4-H Horse meeting. I have had them follow me to town and question me after I parked in the Walmart . If you think the US is the land of the free, think again. It would be comic if it wasn't true. Produce checkpoints, though a pain in the butt, pale by comparison.
I've long been puzzled why Trump's supporters stick with him. He has essentially admitted to lying, stating one position when he was involved in business deals, and stating the polar opposite position as he campaigns. No one knows what we would get if he were elected. Nothing in his past would mark him as a so called "conservative". He's shown a total lack of understanding of world issues. His campaign is essentially all theater. He's just mouthing words that he knows will rile certain people up. That's all just a stage performance but it seems as long as they hear the words they want to hear their support will continue. But I think they will not get what they think they're getting should he be elected. Like you I am praying for a crushing defeat.
Horea Scalat I definitely agree with you. It is not a waste to vote third party, the real wasted votes are the ones that will potentially put Clinton or Trump in office.
I really resent the idea that everyone who voted to leave the EU is a xenophobe.I have no problem with any race or culture, Britain has always been a multicultural society. I voted for self governance, is that so wrong?
I despise Donald Trump and his hate speeches, I despise Nigel Farage's ignorance and intolerance. I have worked side by side in factories with Polish workers I considered friends and worked as a farm labourer alongside Swedes, Estonians, and Bulgarians. One of my best friends married a Polish man who came here to work, and another a Portugese man. I am not a xenophobe.
The campaign fought by both the 'remain' and the 'leave' sides was a disgrace and focused solely on immigration / racism and the short term economy. People are capable of looking up the facts for themselves however, and of thinking of other things!
As someone who lives under EU rule in my UK life, I voted for my democratically elected government to have the ability to set our own VAT rates without 15 years of debating with the rest of Europe if it was OK with them first... I voted for no sneaky TTIP... I voted for the right to decide our own agricultural policies since Tony Blair failed to get Europe to address the issues we had with it, then Gordon Brown failed, then David Cameron failed, despite us paying huge rebate sums in Blair's time and then ever since in order to get the question raised… I voted that land-locked countries should not get to decide the fishing policies of our island and the quotas of our waters… I voted no to wasting billions of taxpayer's money relocating the European council from Brussels to Strasbourg every 6 months simply because France does not want to lose the income that brings them and refuses to change the current situation… I voted based on the fact that it took us over 10 years and millions of pounds to deport the hate preacher Abu Qatada because European courts kept rejecting our right to do so… I voted based on the concessions that Cameron asked for and the actual non-results he got from Europe, even when they were faced with an impending referendum and the possibility of the UK (the second biggest contributer to Europe) leaving…
Immigration was an issue for me, yes, I don't deny it, but not because of xenophobia. Perhaps it is impossible for an American to appreciate, with the vast tracts of land available to you, but we have a relatively very small land mass and are currently receiving 200,000 immigrants per year and that number is increasing dramatically. People do not travel freely from the UK to work in Poland or Portugal or Estonia, not because they can't, but because the economy in those countries is poor and there are no jobs. The reciprocal arrangement and freedom of movement does not benefit everyone equally. That is a problem no matter how tolerant you may be and how much we get on with our neighbours.
Also, on the whole, those who move to the UK for work do not go to live in Wales, or Scotland, or Northern Ireland, they mostly come to live in England where the majority of the work is to be found. For someone living in the south of England, who has seen every green space shrinking, areas demolished for more and more housing, who has had to campaign repeatedly for the protection of designated 'Areas of Outstanding Natural Beauty', who has seen her own and neighbouring villages and towns be told that we have to quadruple in size in the next 4 years, yes immigration and increasing population is an issue!
For the remain campaigners and voters to constantly say we are racists or xenophobes for caring about these things, is horrifically insulting.
I voted out for a lot of reasons and not one of them is that I hate any other race or country. In my heart of course I want greater co-operation, I am a socialist living in a socialist country, who loves the idea that we are all humans and wouldn't freedom of movement and no borders be a great thing?! But I also live in the real world, and it does not work that way yet, because we don't have equal wealth and job opportunities and equal land and resources.
Nevertheless, my main reason for voting to leave the EU was for self governance.
I am really really tired of having to explain myself, but I am so sick of reading that Brexit is a result of 'the angry and the hateful', and that we have anything at all in common with Donald Trump's hate speeches and 'build great big walls to keep everyone out' BS.
Oh, and as for comparing Britain leaving the EU to the US breaking up into individual states, excuse me, but you're comparing apples and oranges!
You may have different policies and sometimes even different laws between each state, but you are one country. Try instead imagining Mexico, Brazil, Cuba, Bolivia, Uruguay, hell maybe even China and the Philippinnes are all in a club together with the USA, and they argue and fight and squabble and nothing much gets done because everyone is out for themselves, and they decide if you can pass laws or raise taxes based on if it benefits them or not… They only allow you to import goods from one or other of them, even if Canada is offering you a great deal, because that doesn't further the club's interests… Being part of that group isn't furthering the greater good and the idea that we are all human beings, what happens is that it becomes impossible to govern because why would an agricultural policy for China be the same as the one for Brazil? How can you say yes, all the jobs are in China right now, and allow everyone from all those other countries descend on a place already crippled under the weight of overpopulation, all in the name of greater unity?
Abi, I understand your position and would not debate it since I don't live in the UK. My concern is that the result of the vote was grabbed by Trump as a validation of his xenophobic beliefs. You guys will work through this one way or another, but I'm very concerned with what will happen and is happening here if that man is not defeated.
John, I agree entirely. The UK might have been divided by whether we wanted to leave the EU or not, but we're pretty much unanimous in our loathing of that man. I don't know if you are aware, but there was a petition with millions of signatures presented to British parliament, asking that Donald Trump be refused entry to the UK after his hate speech about muslims.Parliament debated it and said that they would not ban him because they feared it would increase sympathy for him in the US and make it more likely his campaign would succeed.
But the idea that someone like that could become president of your country and is even now able to use the media to spout hatred and intolerance is staggering to me.
Beyond his hateful rhetoric his lack of knowledge of government and world affairs in general, which he has admitted and demonstrated multiple times, is staggering to me. For a tv show clown, no problem but for someone running for president, it's incomprehensible. That's why I have no respect for those that support him. Political differences are one thing, and there were/are several republicans I would feel comfortable about. They have experience, knowledge and the maturity level of an actual adult. But to support someone who has none of that is mind boggling.





