I just read this at the website of Terry Brooks (see Link to terrybrooks.net). A reader asked him about his outlining process, and here is his response: "I am less dogmatic about outlining than I used to be. Some of that is due to experience and practice, after 32 books. Some of it is due to changes in my thinking as a writer and the need to evolve. I still outline my books, but I don't spend as much time on the details. I am more fluid in my approach. It has to do with trusting the process and my writer's instincts. So far, so good.

What I take from this is that, just as we have discussed before, outlining is very useful tool for most writers. Experienced geniuses like Mr. Brooks can do it all in their heads. Good for them.

Wendy wrote: "THis one has different timelines in it that give insight to the crazy nature of one of the characters. I'm having trouble fitting my brain around the non ordered time line without a guide for what goes where."

Have you figured out a good way to show when a particular scene is happening? I've tried to figure one out for my story - I don't want to pinpoint particular years so it's tricky.

Shawna, Delightful to see you again! I wish you luck with your deadline and hope to see you back on the boards again soon.

I think, by your definition, I am a pantser- though I'm teetering on needing to be plotting for my current work.

My other one was chronological- so it was no sweat. THis one has different timelines in it that give insight to the crazy nature of one of the characters. I'm having trouble fitting my brain around the non ordered time line without a guide for what goes where.

I haven't written an actual outline of an intended story yet, but do kind of outline as I go.

I generally put together an overall plan for a book: what I want to say, what the various concepts might be, who some characters appear to be and why (what I want of them), and where the story needs to go. Then I'll start writing.

As the story unfolds, I'll put each chapter into an outline (a table of contents, if you will) with a very short summary of what each chapter is about. Eventually I'll start going back through the outline to see just where the chapters appear to be flowing. And then ultimatley will start rearranging chapters, etc.

This way I can see if the chapters are flowing into the story I envisioned when I started, whether some parts should really come before or after where I've got them, and so forth. I can also go into the chapters themselves and re-write them if they don't flow the way the outline suggests.

On my first book, SANCTION, I probably did a hundred re-writes as I've described, but the outlining I had done as I went along enabled me to keep on track. You can see it if you want at http://www.JimMagwood.com ,

This year, I've worked on a lot of short stories and novelettes. I didn't do anything with novels, but next year, I will be finishing up the novels I had started last year. And I think it is about time that I improve my plotting before I start.

I think I am too, I still like to run with something now and then. Sometimes you've just got to follow the inspiration. I never plot short stories, except the one we did together. They're more fun when you just let them come to you. Plus, you don't waste 300 pages worth of work when you get stuck.

Oh, okay. That makes a lot of sense.

I am somewhere in between.

Rita,
'Plotters' are writers who plan their plots in advance and write a tentative synopsis or outline.
'Pantsers' fly (or write) by the seat of their pants.
In this case, the writer decides the plot while writing it.

Shawna wrote: "LOL. Renee, my underlying point is do what works for you. Sometimes, I'll write a song title on a document. If I listen to the song, the mood of the scene returns. Unconventional maybe.... but it w..."

When you get a chance, could you explain what plotters and pantsers are?

Pantsers. What a strange word.

But only occasionally.

Renee wrote: "It helps if you have a brain that tends to scatter, like mine. Then when something shiny distracts me, I can come back and know where I left off.

"

I have been known to get distracted ocassionally.

It helps if you have a brain that tends to scatter, like mine. Then when something shiny distracts me, I can come back and know where I left off.

Renee wrote: "I write one in bullet points, then I take that and write it out like a synopsis, but just a bit more detailed. It helps me figure out where I'm going with it, if this or that will work and keeps me..."

I like that a lot.

I do short sentences, or just one word, in a list and sometimes with sublists. They usually are fleshed out as I write and I think I do a lot like you, Shawna, when I write.

LOL. Renee, my underlying point is do what works for you. Sometimes, I'll write a song title on a document. If I listen to the song, the mood of the scene returns. Unconventional maybe.... but it works.

Rita, writers are type cast all over the place, mostly though as plotters or pantsers.

And now, I have a deadline to meet. In fact, my editor called in between 'returns' and 'unconventional'.

I'm in a why-did-I-say-I-could-have-the-whole-thing-done-by-Thursday panic.

Ack!

Shawna wrote: "I'm a puzzler. This is someone who has a general idea of the plot but writes the scenes and they come to him or her and then fits them together."

I had never heard of that way of "type-casting" someone. A puzzler. Hmm, I think that would be me too.

Don't fade. Everyone works in different ways. I decided to try outlining because I have so many stories that are half finished and I couldn't figure out where to go with them. It works for me because I get distracted too easily.

So far i haven't managed a chapter by chapter summary, mostly just a bunch of paragraphs outlining what I think will happen. That way I can change it. Not that it wouldn't change anyway.

Hi everyone! I'm coming out of lurker mode because this is a subject near to my heart and recently, I discovered a blog post on this that opened my eyes.

You see, I am not a plotter or a panster, but something in between. I'm a puzzler. This is someone who has a general idea of the plot but writes the scenes and they come to him or her and then fits them together. Yes, there are always adjustments to be made, but not as many as you might think.

Although I stand in awe of writers who can sit down and do a chapter by chapter summery of his or her book before they write a word, I'm also a bit sick of kicking myself in the butt for not doing that.

It's like Picasso moaning because he doesn't paint like Rubens... I mean duh!

Okay, I've had my say now I'm fading back into the woodwork. : )

The easiest way is to do a loose outline first. For me it is anyway, kind of like a sequence of important events that you want to fit in. Then flesh that out into paragraphs or chapters, but only an outline no dialogue or anything.
I do find writing so much easier once I do that. It's extra work, but then I'm not stuck later wondering where the heck I go next.

And yes, I've heard, especially if you're writing a series, you should have every part outlined.

I remember the outline you had for The Lurker. That was what got me thinking about this. You had about six paragraphs that described the POV and the plot, and when you flushed it out, it became a 3,000 word story. It was very simple but detailed enough to always know what you need to write next.

I have a fantasy novel series that I wrote the first book for but don't have much plotted out for the rest of the books. I really think I should at least have an outline for all books in the series before I even begin to look for a publisher or think about self-publishing. I wouldn't want to be stuck not knowing how to finish the story or needing a plot point that should have been in book 1 but wasn't.

I write one in bullet points, then I take that and write it out like a synopsis, but just a bit more detailed. It helps me figure out where I'm going with it, if this or that will work and keeps me on track. If I add something, or have an idea, I'll use it. Nothing about my outlines are set in stone.

"To structure or not to structure..."

By now, I'm sure that we've discussed the hell out of this topic, but my question is not whether you should or shouldn't, or whether you do or don't, but rather how do you write your outline (if you do).

Is it a bullet point list? A summary in paragraph form? What kind of information do you include? I can see the merits of outlines, especially for longer works, but I'm not very good at them. Therefore, I wondered what others do to create them.

Gary wrote:
" Cowriting is more work than writing by oneself. It requires lots of interpersonal skills. YOu have to be able to give things up. You have to save up for those things you can't do without. You have to be willing to sometimes go with the flow."

I've heard the same about playing in a quartet.

I must add that me and my friend does nothing of that you listed for no 2. Of course, we've only done short stories for fun so it's another ballgame entirely, but it's insanely fun trying to get a story to back where you wanted it, while the other is constantly trying to do the same for her own plot! :D

I am sure there is some frightfully witty reply to that - something to do with waves... but my brain has ceased functioning this morning. When we all get published you are going to have some glowing dedications, I am sure. Meanwhile you have to put up with the hissy fits. It's a girl thing. We don't like being told...

Carlos, I think I am going to do something nasty to you.

I must be losing my touch. Once upon a time, ladies cooed, modeled flimsy things to gift my weary eyes, sung lullabies at nighttime and pampered my ears with sweet nothings.

Recently, I only hear about mutilation, caging in conditions of extreme cruelty and now threats of "doing something nasty."

I'll check for vacancies in the Merchant Navy...

teri wrote: "There is a part of me that wishes I could write with a partner that way all the time"

You need to find the right person to write with - and it's not about how much friends you are. I can't write with my best friend because he just doesn't write the way I do. I can write and have amazingly fun with another friend where we (sometimes on purpose) pretty much ruin each other's plan as we do "one paragraph at a time" writing. It's great, everyone should try it. Just don't get discouraged because it didn't work with the first person you tried it with. It's a bit like relationships, I guess...

Paul wrote: "Co-writing, work to your strengths. Man A is good at story and description. Woman B is good at character and dialogue.

Fine. Do it that way. A writes and B rewrites."

I'd never co-written anything until I did an activity recently where we did a dialogue conversation (Elevator conversation - maybe you've heard of it?) in our online group to see how far dialogue could take a script.

I was completely blown away with what happened. An entire plot was revealed to my partner and me, whom I'd never met and with whom I shared only a fictitious scenario and the dialogue the characters shared. They took on their own life, bouncing a conversation back and forth that became much more than idle chatter.

There is a part of me that wishes I could write with a partner that way all the time-- long distance, in dialogue. It eases some of the loneliness of writing and brings a freshness to one's work just when we need it most. (The down side is the partners ideas can get in the way of your own when you're on a roll -- they must be considered.) Still, I can see how people can make partnering work.

Just moving Susan's post here.

message 1: by Susan 7 hours, 19 min ago

So Carlos nagged me about outlining. I'd always done it *after* I'd written a novel, not before. So, since my back has 'gone' (don't ask where) and I had to work today, I took a notepad and sat down between putting dogs in and out (I work in a kennels) and started outlining a novel I'd already begun (let's not even go there).

I stopped writing the novel because I had no idea where it was going. It didn't walk out the door, it just ... stopped. Because I didn't have all the elements in place. Now, normally I am a seat of the pants writer so this doesn't bother me. I just 'write' but this time it didn't work and I was heartily annoyed because, it was a damn good idea. But I can't write such a thing as a simple story, it has to be complex with threads and subplots and... well, you get the picture?

Thing is though, I started out writing a fantasy novel. Now it's science fiction. Well, semantics, I'm still going to call it fantasy. I threw away a character. *gulps* one of the main characters and replaced her. (The casting department said the first one was too wimpish and old-fashioned). And suddenly I've got a completely different novel.

Carlos, I think I am going to do something nasty to you.

What happened to my gentle, pastoral, medieval fantasy with elves and magic hating church?

For those who like some defined structure to their work, here is a method of producing detailed outlines - both of plot and character. I'm trialling it for my NaNoWriMo entry, and I like it so far.

The Snowflake method

Paul wrote: "Co-writing, work to your strengths. Man A is good at story and description. Woman B is good at character and dialogue.

Fine. Do it that way. A writes and B rewrites."

One of my favorite author's is actually a husband/wife team: Ilona Andrews.

I don't know how they write but I think it works.

Rita J. wrote: "In Japanese, the word would be wakarismasen (sp?), meaning doesn't understand.


I'm going to slaughter the spelling, but...Iea wakadiwas. "No, I don't understand".

One of the few phrases I remember in Japanese, and one I used frequently when I lived there.

Co-writing, work to your strengths. Man A is good at story and description. Woman B is good at character and dialogue.

Fine. Do it that way. A writes and B rewrites.

I had to co-author a paper in college. At first, we were writing every word together, but then we'd argue about each word we typed. It was taking forever. We finally realized that we had to delegate. I took the introduction and the part on the gypsies. She took the other part. It worked out perfectly.

Rita J. wrote: "Wendy wrote: "Hot dang! I do exist! Renee, your brain is so big.

And Brihgid,Have you ever watched the behind the scenes making of a cartoon movie? They have walls and walls covered in storyboard..."

That's an excellent question. I often wonder how you go about that. How do you decide who writes what?

Another example from the talented people in the Far East: Clamp is a very famous group of female manga artists. The way they work is, one of them comes up with the stories, then they all meet to discuss her ideas. Together they decide which one to work on. Then they split among them who designs characters, who works on background, who writes the dialogue, etc. Finally, one of them is in charge of how much time they'll spend on each project.

Interesting, eh?

Rita J. wrote: "Renee wrote: "Well if not, at least I'll know what everyone is talking about. I'm sure it's very good. "

There is nothing worse than bad anime. There is nothing better than good anime. "

Amen!

Brighid wrote: "You know, I'm not really sure if they follow a specific guideline. I think authors of Manga are like authors of anything else in that they vary from individual to individual.

Manga = Japanese Comi..."

Love Roma is a good manga series.Spirited Away is a favorite anime of mine. Inuyahsa is another. pokemon. beyblade. as well as Battle of the Planets and Astro Boy! can't wait for the movie!

Renee wrote: "Well if not, at least I'll know what everyone is talking about. I'm sure it's very good. "

There is nothing worse than bad anime. There is nothing better than good anime.

Wendy wrote: "Hot dang! I do exist! Renee, your brain is so big.

And Brihgid,Have you ever watched the behind the scenes making of a cartoon movie? They have walls and walls covered in storyboards.

Now t..."

They usually have teams to do cartoon movies. They have to storyboard (outline) to keep everyone on the same page.

So that makes me wonder something: how deeply would we have to structure a novel if we were working in cooperation with others?

Good job Henry.

I was only recently introduced to manga and anime. I was pleasantly surprised to see how complex the story lines and how well develop the characters are. Most of it is rated for teens, but be careful because of the cultural differences between East and West, some parents may not be comfortable with some of the stories. For children, I recommend a movie called Spirited Away, distributed in the US by Disney. Wonderful fairy tale. I love the heroine ;-)

Regarding structure, manga artists are like all of us writers. Some of them have this ultra complex outlines, for example Death Note, Volume 1 Boredom (a complex thriller), where the author was extremely careful with the plot. On the other hand, I read the author of Bleach, Vol. 1 Strawberry and the Soul Reapers just "starts sketching until the plot comes to him".

In short, I think all artists share some traits. Some of us are organized to the point of paranoia. Others just go along with it, stream of consciousness and all that. Whatever works goes.

(How is that for bringing a tangent back to topic?)

Well if not, at least I'll know what everyone is talking about. I'm sure it's very good.

Well the comics look just like the anime. =D Or.. vice verse?

Anyhow, some of the anime/manga is very innocent. Others.. not so much. Just have to check it out for yourself, I suppose. I find that people of all ages enjoy anime.

Hot dang! I do exist! Renee, your brain is so big.

And Brihgid,Have you ever watched the behind the scenes making of a cartoon movie? They have walls and walls covered in storyboards.

Now that is not to say that I think they can't change things if they so choose, but I know they have a good outline before they get started for animation. (I've got cousins in the movie biz that do that and special effects for big movies)

Hmmm...Wendy check the homepage, you'll be pleasantly surprised. If not, tell me and I'll fix it.

Japanese comics, no idea. Animation, my kids watch. Should they be watching that? Is it G rated? I should check. It's on the approved channel so it should be okay. Damn, if I have to watch something else to make sure it's okay, it better be good. I wasn't happy about South Park, though it's pretty funny.

You know, I'm not really sure if they follow a specific guideline. I think authors of Manga are like authors of anything else in that they vary from individual to individual.

Manga = Japanese Comic Books

Anime = Japanese Animation (Usually based off of Manga)

In my opinion there are a lot of great stories told through Manga and Anime. One being: Rurouni Kenshin, Volume 1

It is my favorite. ^.^

You get your picture? you lucky dog. I'm the imaginary moderator fairy that is a mod, but know one knows it.

*looks around*

Shhhh- it's top secret.

And by the way, I think they do structure all those manga things. Probably with storyboards up on the wall and all that.

And what, may I ask is your opinion of plot in this anime and manga and kangaroo koala stuff? Do you think they plot outline before? Is it just written impulsively allowing the creative juices to flow? Is there a plot? What is this stuff you are speaking of? I'm lost. It's like I've stepped onto another planet where no one is speaking my language.

I know, imagine the tangent queen bringing people back on topic. I have to moderate occasionally or they'll kick my picture off the homepage.

=D You'll have to bear with me on that one. When I think "anime" I tend to include manga in that. Not sure why I do that, but yes, I love manga as well.

I do a lot of browsing new anime and manga. I've read and seen quite a few anime while living in the city. High speed internet is a wonderful thing.

Brighid wrote: "<3 Japanese Anime"

:-)

What about manga? I love manga. I often look at a Bleach volume (a series well known for its beautiful fight scenes) and imagine how would I describe what I am looking at by using only words. It's a fun exercise.