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The Wise Man's Fear (The Kingkiller Chronicle, #2)
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message 1: by Jacob (new)

Jacob Dennis | 1 comments Is there any chance that Denna's patron is Caudicus? And then that Caudicus is tied into something dark, perhaps even the Chandrian? Denna mentions that she has been working on histories with her patron and Caudicus mentions that he is something of a historian. Also, how would Denna get the song about Lanre, and from that perspective? It seems like her patron has some sort of sinister connection. I don't know if it is the Chandrian but it could be.

I know this is a bit of a stretch but there are a couple strange happenings here.
1. Denna gets a history on a very little known topic with help from a strange, and possibly evil, patron
2. She says that her patron has secrets, and he tells her things that she needs to know
3. Caudicus calls himself "a bit of a historian". This may just be on the families of the court but it could be much, much more.
4.Caudicus escapes, and I think that he will make some sort of reappearance.


Eric | 99 comments Problematic because we know he's been in Imre multiple times and Caudicus has been with the Maer for years. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems unlikely.

More likely people are Bredon and Cinder.


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments Also, Caudicus has been beheaded. No big deal, just saying.


Eric | 99 comments Servius Heiner wrote: "Also, Caudicus has been beheaded. No big deal, just saying."

Actually, Stapes just says he was taken care of 'properly'. We have no idea what Alveron did to Caudicus or what he learned.


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments I recall either stapes or the maer saying he was beheaded.Or that his head was returned to the maer. I'd have to check on that.


message 6: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Yah, I dont know about Caudicus as Denna's patron.

It's not a bad idea or anything...it's just Denna got her patron while in Imre.

Which is a long ways away from Severen...like a ridiculous long way. Too far for Caudicus to travel and still poison the Maer...

I'm leaning more toward Cinder if it is anyone who has already been introduced.

1. Cinder - Ash...pretty similar, and we know Kvothe has a knack for that sort of thing.

2. Denna gets her patron in Imre, on the day that Kvothe doesnt show for their date because he burns up the Fishery. On that day, Deoch says Denna left with a white haired gentlemen...Cinder has white hair.

3. Denna's patron has her play at a gathering that leads up to an attack by the Chandrian. Thus implicating them both in having a connection to them.

4. We know that Denna's patron is cruel to her and beats her with his cane, which the Ctheah says is a new thing...the beatings only start including a cane after Cinder is shot with an arrow by Kvothe's crew in the bandit camp. I dont think it's a huge presumption to say that after such an injury, someone might need to use a cane, at least for some time.

5. Denna's first song is about Lanre - a chandrian. It includes a historical account that hasnt been heard before. Cinder would also have this information and could be considered "a historian" due to his long existance.

6. When Kvothe talks to the Ctheah, it links Denna and Cinder together by talking about both of them in about a paragraphs amount of time. Doesnt make much sense to jump subjects. Thats not how talking works (As I'm sure you know, since you probably do it, theirs always some connection when you talk about different subjects) Not to mention, the Ctheah has it out for Cinder - and it obviously knows Kvothe has the "hots" for Denna, so playing off that would make sense.



I'm not saying its a for sure or anything...but these are the conclusions that led up to my agreeing with the theory as the best possibility.


message 7: by Ardene (new)

Ardene (booksnpeaches) | 4 comments I like your theory Amber.


Scans | 63 comments But Cinder knows who Kvothe is, and I am sure he has watched Kvothe and Denna together, so he knows about their relationship. Why wouldn't he kill Kvothe by luring him with Denna?


Eric | 99 comments Scans wrote: "But Cinder knows who Kvothe is, and I am sure he has watched Kvothe and Denna together, so he knows about their relationship. Why wouldn't he kill Kvothe by luring him with Denna?"

Yeah, I've always leaned more towards Bredon or another unknown person.

It's said that they know how to hide their tell-tale signs, but hiding the fact that you have cold skin and black eyes with no iris seems a bit difficult to cover up. Glammourie might work for the eyes, but she seriously didn't notice he was ice cold when she was learning to dance with him?


message 11: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Scans wrote: "But Cinder knows who Kvothe is, and I am sure he has watched Kvothe and Denna together, so he knows about their relationship. Why wouldn't he kill Kvothe by luring him with Denna?"

Who says Cinder wants to kill Kvothe? Kvothe may seem insignificant to Cinder. Cinder may not remember Kvothe, that was literally years ago, and Cinder has probably killed lots of people since then. Cinder may not be allowed to kill Kvothe either...he does have to listen to Haliax. Or you have to remember, he does enjoy his little cruelties too much, so he may just want to make him suffer as long as he can and Denna is a good ploy to do that.

Also - @ Eric,
If Cinder is Denna's patron, she could know that he is a Chandrian and he wouldnt need to hide "the signs"
Or he could use glammourie, in the same way Bast does to hide similar features. As for the cold skin, he could cover all his skin for all we know. Maybe he wears long sleeves, pants, and gloves all the time...

I just wouldnt rule it out based on those things. I mean, there are a lot of possibilities.

I agree that Bredon is a good chance too, but I just cant see him beating down little girls. That's what really hold me back on that.

The only thing I'm really against is Bredon/Cinder/Ash trilogy character...as I've expressed many times on this board LOL.


message 12: by Eric (last edited Aug 14, 2012 02:11PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Eric | 99 comments Amber wrote: "I agree that Bredon is a good chance too, but I just cant see him beating down little girls. That's what really hold me back on that."

He might not be "beating her" in the traditional sense. He might be teaching her to duel, or any number of scenarios where physical harm might occur.

But you could be right, I will keep an open mind.


message 13: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Hmm, never thought about it like that. I'm willing to keep an open mind here as well.

I guess "beating" does have two meanings, which I never really considered. I'm going to have to read that part again with that in mind, see how I like the fit. LOL.


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments I think the beatings were just what most people thought them to be. Back to the conversation with the cathae- He used his cain on her this time. She laid on the ground for hours this time. do you know what she thinks about when she's down there? you.... paraphrasing I don't have the book with me at the moment.


message 15: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Still - even that could be "hard" training, and I dont think that's taking it completely out of context.

It sort of makes me think of on Smallville (I know...) how Lana had to get all hardcore so she could put on the promethius (excuse my spelling) suit. It was intensive and painful training.

If I were to take it into the context suggested by Eric, which I think is worth consideration. Maybe Denna isnt think nice thoughts about Kvothe.

Maybe she is playing a game with Kvothe and in the end, they will have to duel eachother or something else. You know...Denna, Femme Fatale. Would make sense in my opinion.

It would also explain why Denna continues to keep her patron even though he hurts her, and also could lead into a good answer for Scans as to why Cinder didnt just kill Kvothe himself. I think Cinder would be willing to play a waiting game to watch Denna ultimately slaughter Kvothe.


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments That could all be true... It just seems like there is an awful lot of stretching to make that theory comfortably plausible.

Still, I kinda like it.


message 17: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Yah I dont know...I'm totally just trying to be open to any plausible idea LOL.

But I'd actually kind of like that too. Ultimate Betrayal.


message 18: by Eric (last edited Aug 15, 2012 09:43AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Eric | 99 comments Amber wrote: "Yah I dont know...I'm totally just trying to be open to any plausible idea LOL.

But I'd actually kind of like that too. Ultimate Betrayal."


One theory I've had floating around in my head is that Denna might be apprenticed for something. She obviously starts off as a drifter/courtesan, for lack of a better word. But then she tells Kvothe she has a Patron, and though she calls him that, I think that could be Denna putting it in terms Kvothe would understand.

Regardless, once she had a 'Patron' she shouldn't have needed to continue on with her dalliances. I thought it might be possible that she's going on dates as a cover for meeting with specific people to be educated on things like fighting, story knots, history, music, and social graces (possibly even magic, Sympathy, etc). She could even be something as simple as a spy.

But I have a ton of these theories, so pick away.


message 19: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
I could totally see her as a spy of some sort or another.

I mean, a performer is a pretty good cover to get into a fancy places someone of her status wouldnt usually be able to pull off.

It would definitely lessen my distaste for her if it turned out she was doing something along these lines instead of just hooking up with guys to get pretty things she can hawk later when she's strapped for cash.

Denna does show a lot of interest in getting information, but not sharing any about herself.


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments That is why I think there is more to her then just an escort. But I really have no %100 idea as to what. I guess we will have to wait till may.


message 21: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Yah, crossing my fingers for May also...hopefully Doors of Stone doesnt get pushed back.

While I'd love to refute Eric's theory, it just doesnt seem like there is much evidence to say that his idea wouldnt work out.

I mean, First Person Narrative always has the possiblity of being unreliable. We only get Kvothe's opinions and points of view and his view of Denna is skewed by his desire for her. So of course his interpretations of what she does or is doing, could be totally off base because it's what he wants to see.

Sort of like, in my opinion, his idea's of what the Chandrian are about could be totally off base because he obviously experienced a Trauma in regards to them.

That plus the lack of evidence to disseminate his theory really makes it seem viable...wish I would have thought of it, probably would have been more understanding of her character with an idea like that.

You know, instead of constantly wondering what the hell is with this bitch and why does anyone even like her?


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments Haha Yeah. :)

Still, I have to totally disagree about the Chandrian. I just can't accept tyhem being anything but bad. I have read the arguments, and they ARE plausable... But I just cant swallow it. Too many factions are afraid of them. Too many stories. Too much smoke for there to be no fire.


message 23: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
ehh...to each his own.

I passed on Bredon as Denna's patron because...it just didnt "feel right"

so cant say I dont do the same thing here and their. Plus, the chandrian obviously have been built into the bad guy and thus it would make more sense they remain so...

I mostly just like thinking up where all the facts COULD lead and I really like reading peoples original theories. Even if they dont amount to that idea in the end, I think it's really awesome how so many ideas could branch off from what's been written.


Servius  Heiner  | 178 comments I have a feeling PR has us all snowed and none of our theories will be remotly close. But that is as it should be... Still fun to pick it apart.


Denise Winters (denisewinters) | 15 comments I am leading towards Brendon/Brencis as well, seeing as he is well off and uses canes.

However, her being trained and the beating being a part of the training makes sense too. She does also as Kvothe a question about sympathy that puts him back. And the beating would fit in with the Cteah saying things that are true but in a destructive way. After all, prior to the use of the cane it could be that she was retrieving hand to hand combat, or that her pain tolerance levels are being increased.

Also, staying with someone who beat her out of anger or beat her for missing a note doesn't seem to be in her character. In the first book Deoch mentions that when a man wants to much from her she skips town for a couple of months and shows up under a new name (or at least she has a different name depending on town/person). I would think that unless she's scared and her patron can find her anywhere, she would skip town rather than be beaten out of cruelty/anger.

I think she might be connected to the Amyr, and that would fit in with the alternate story she told of Landrian.


message 26: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
@ Denise, you make a good point with what Deoch has said about her.

Also, in connection with the theory that she might be being trained for something and not beat, which I agree would make sense coming from the Ctheah (and it's just amusing to theorize) that her training to be an Amyr judge or something like that, could work itself in.

I mean, those guys were some serious business back in the day, I would imagine that required training in a lot of aspects.

Plus, if her trainer were someone close the Maer....well, that could explain plenty. In my opinion, its a decent theory, and one I really like since it makes me think of Denna more positively.


message 27: by Ancapaillmor (last edited Aug 29, 2012 06:01AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ancapaillmor | 76 comments Denise wrote: "Also, staying with someone who beat her out of anger or beat her for missing a note doesn't seem to be in her character. In the first book Deoch mentions that when a man wants to much from her she skips town for a couple of months and shows up under a new name (or at least she has a different name depending on town/person). I would think that unless she's scared and her patron can find her anywhere, she would skip town rather than be beaten out of cruelty/anger."

I like the idea of training but i don't think so. That scene in severin where kvothe's mentions that he beats her in referal to beating her after the wedding as a cover. She quickly responds about falling off a horse to explain the bruises not realising kvothe was on about the wedding, i got the impression of shame from that. Plus she seems to have a genuine fear of her patron.

As for staying with a guy that beats her, the scene towrds the end of the book with both on the rock by the river explains it perfectly. She questions kvothe on his scars and challenges him about why does he keep going to the college then. She's indirectly saying, you have your goals and will do anything and suffer anything to achieve them, i am the same. again i applaud PR for that scene. Said it in another thread they're mirror images of each other and are in different but similar situations. She doesn't have the adavantages that kvothe has, being a man in the world and abenthe's training\letter of recommendation.


message 28: by Amber, Arcanist (last edited Aug 29, 2012 02:00PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
I just really dont know. I'm torn on both sides.
On one hand, I have spent all this reading believing Denna to be someone I didnt really like as a character, and as sort of a weakling. I havent liked her at all because I feel like she makes a lot of excuses for herself and does a lot more hurtful and immoral things out of selfishness than Kvothe.

On the other hand though - a theory like this, where she is training to be some kind of badass, that gives me a little boost. Makes me think, hey, maybe I'm looking at this character all wrong. She could be a decent girl, she could be striving for something difficult. And I could see PR writing something like that, being a feminist and all his talk about wanting strong female characters in fantasy. So its really hard for me to say either way.

If Denna isnt doing something amazing though, she's not going to be a favorite character of mine...that is for sure. At this point, her death would be a moment of joy for me.


Ancapaillmor | 76 comments I find her utterly fascinating, on my initial read through I didn't think much of her but in subsequent reads she's made me a fan. She training alright, although I don't think the beatings are part of it to toughen her up. I
Wouldn't mess with her though, remember the knife training she gave to kvothe and she sorted that guy in severin fairly easily. What did annoy me though was kvothe speaking of how he comforted her when things went bad with men in notw and her getting snarky with kvothe at the end of wmf over him seeing women.

I'd love something like bonus chapters from her point of view when its over.


message 30: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
REALLY?! I've read these books a few times myself and everytime my distaste for her character grows.

Though I could see her turning into an excellent Anti-Hero. Maybe its because I'm a woman (I'm sorry, I dont know your gender so hard to say) but I just dont agree with ANYTHING she does or her excuses as to why. Just a personal thing really, I suppose. I just feel like Fela or Devi are so much better and stronger than she is. She may be tough with a knife, but I feel she is mentally weak, and that she is also weak because she doesnt forge alliances with other characters as far as we've seen.

Definitely not saying the character wasnt written well. I mean, she evokes a lot of emotion! Which I'm pretty sure is good.


Ancapaillmor | 76 comments Amber wrote: "REALLY?! I've read these books a few times myself and everytime my distaste for her character grows.
"


I know i'm going about it, sorry. In these times(our world)yes she would be a dislikeable character due to her choices. as a woman in those times and where she lives, she has very little choice. You heard the deoch talk with kvothe and her chat with the girl she saved in severin. There's whoring, working in a factory equivalent or getting married, in all of those a woman is essentially tied down with no hope of advancement, all at the whim of men\society. She's like kvothe in that she does not want to be tied down and wants to advance her learning or goal, whatever that may be. If kvothe was female i could picture him doing the same or similar to get his goal(kvothe and ambrose, *shudders).

She either moves or jumps town when her fella expects some boom boom or starts to talk of meeting the parents or she could also be trying to keep her head down ie low profile. I suspect something happened her and she generally doesn't have a good opinion of men.

I just think she's getting a bad rap, i'll admit i disliked her very much the first time i read it. She's a very strong character(what little we know) compared to women from other fantasy books.


message 32: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Yes, yes. I've read the argument in her defense. And a lot of people shuffle it off to the Deoch argument, but I just dont buy that. In book examples of women who dont bow to men would someone like Shandy (the trouper) or Devi. Women could make their way, it's just Denna isnt very inventive in my opinion and chooses to take the easy way of using people. If she were ugly, she would have to use her brains, but since she isnt....
Even Auri figures out a way to make it on her own and she's a nutcase!


message 33: by Ancapaillmor (last edited Sep 03, 2012 02:59PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Ancapaillmor | 76 comments Devi might be a bad example, she did offer to sleep with kvothe for archive info, see they're all at it. One of my favourite scenes on the audio book, its hilarious.


message 34: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
She offered him a fair trade. Willingly having sex with someone to get information isnt whats bad. That would be agreement that was forthright. Having sex isnt bad.

What Denna does is lie to people, acts like she cares about them, gets all she can from them and then runs off and hides hoping they forget her. Thats not a fair trade. Thats getting played.


message 35: by Denise (last edited Sep 21, 2012 04:29PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Denise Winters (denisewinters) | 15 comments Ancapaillmor wrote: "Denise wrote: "Also, staying with someone who beat her out of anger or beat her for missing a note doesn't seem to be in her character. In the first book Deoch mentions that when a man wants to muc..."

Yeah, I thought about that after I wrote it and then thought, even with her habit to run away when a man demands more of her than she is willing to give, that there is another reason I think she would stay with one who beats her: he can offer her something she desperately wants/needs, but she feels he needs nothing from her (or comparatively little) in return. That doesn't have to be knowledge/training/or tangible.

I think her lying could be simply not wanting Kvothe to know what kind of training she is receiving, and it may be she doesn't like her patron but he is the best/has something she desperately wants or needs. If it was simply a matter of needing stability, I am quite sure plenty of men have offered to marry her (or at least offer her exclusivity as a kept mistress).
It could also just be that this person isn't training her, and doesn't have any particular knowledge/items, but is manipulative enough to convince her he has everything she wants and she can offer him nothing which makes her cling to him. However, given the story so far, I do not think it is that relatively straight forward (especially since I wonder if that kind of character would be to much of a control freak to let her leave often even of he knew she would be back).

I am so very confused by Denna and the scene with her advising a young woman who had entered prostitution, the Yllish knots, and some of the questions she's asked about sympathy make her a big ball of mystery to me. Also, I am rereading now, but isn't it implied she knows how to recognize and interpret marks left bu thieves and con artists on shop door-frames? Also, I get the impression her advice to the young prostitute wasn't generic as in "If you stay this route at least work up to being a kept woman or a high-class call girl" but rather "I know people who can help you." It seems she knows a lot about the underground in terms of stealing and fencing, prostitution, and running con schemes.

Not to mention I get the impression she knows where Kvothe is even when he has no idea where she is, and their meetings are not random on her part (though I believe there was a case when they kept missing each others' letters).


Kaye  (CarryMeAway) | 241 comments okay cool fact about Caudicus, his name is the dirivitive of Caduceus which is the medical symbol of the staff with two serpents wrapped around it... dont know if anyone has posted that... but yeah...


Kaye  (CarryMeAway) | 241 comments besides Caudicus is so not Denna's patron... so very unlikely


Allen Tsai | 71 comments Dead horse time!

Kvothe and Denna, point and counterpoint. I mean, they even sing a duet together before they meet.

I think the story knots are significant. Denna's fluency of them is telling. Maybe Yll is where the last true stories are kept.

Denna's patron - Control via fear. I like Mr. Cinder-Bredon-Ash Patron. Cinder - Ash has been reiterated, but Bredon... Aside from the casual description of his cane, he wants to play a beautiful game of Tak. (I think whether Cinder would be interested in this could be debated.) I think it would be beautiful for Bredon to be Ash, and learning all of Kvothe's little logical fallacies via Tak, if he even cares about who Kvothe is. And yeah, I agree with Amber - It's not like Cinder should even know who Kvothe is. Doubt he would recognize "that one kid I didn't get to kill, all grown up". As far as most of people in the world are concerned, Kvothe is just another student at the Academy.


message 39: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
Oh man, I just hate Bredon-Cinder-Ash theory.

Three characters in one...ugh.
Thought I'm not going to lie, I can see the connection and why some people might think its a possiblity.

I like to leave Bredon out though. My opinion is Cinder is Ash, Ash is Cinder. Bredon is something/someone else. Maybe of little importance other than to further Kvothe's character whilst in Severen.

Though I admit that could be way off base.

I think I've expressed this enough times around the board to stop beating my dead horse....so I'll just leave it at that, I think I flushed out my theory a little better in a character thread.


Rachel (RachelSessum) | 112 comments I really don't think the Bredon-Cinder-Ash theory could pan out. First of all, Kvothe has Cinder's image burned into his brain. It would be possible for him to be using a glamour on almost anyone out in Vintas... except Kvothe. Kvothe has trained at the University and has been trained to think and see. Even with Bastas, when Chronicler met him he saw through his glamour almost instantly because of the same training Kvothe received. In a flash of lightning in the dark, Kvothe was able to recognize Cinder. I just don't think he could pull it off.

Individually, think both the Cinder/Ash and the Bredon/Ash theories have merit. I have long suspected that Cinder might be Denna's patron. It would explain why he had her out at the wedding. Also, beating the crap out of a girl seems like just the type of thing that giant D-bag would do. Also, it would explain the song that Denna sang about Lanre. If her patron were Cinder, it would make sense that Lanre was depicted in a sympathetic light, as a fallen hero instead of a crazed psychopathic Chandrian guy. It was what caused the huge fight between Denna and Kvothe before they parted ways.

I hadn't really given much thought to the Bredon/Ash theory, but it could be a possibility. He does have the white hair. Additionally, he is very secretive and even in all their games of Tak, Kvothe never really finds out anything about him. Which would be in keeping with what we know of Master Ash.

I don't think it is Caudicus, but that said, some of the reasoning discounting him is faulty. He actually traveled all over the world according to the Maer, searching out new medications. Also, the Maer enjoyed long periods of relative health before getting sick again. It would be possible (but I doubt probable) that during that time he was out traveling around that he could have met Denna. But if he met Denna at the Eolian, it would seem likely that he would have seen Kvothe play and would have recognized him in Vintas.

I think Caudicus plays a different role in this story. Remember how Ambrose is something like 13th in line of the throne? He used to be 16th (or something like that) and then some people died and he moved up in line. Caudicus had stated that he had stayed with the Jakis family for a while. I think he may have been hired by them to kill the Maer in an effort to advance their own wealth. Additionally, Devi told Kvothe that Ambrose's family's holdings were called "The Pirate Islands" (or something like that) and thought that Ambrose had been responsible for Kvothe's ship sinking. It would be in keeping with a bunch of pirates to use murder as a means of advancing one's self in power and wealth. I think that was Caudicus's role. Hired killer.


message 41: by Chris, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris (chris300) | 376 comments Mod
So much lol. Just no.


message 42: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
@Rachel.

I dont think Kvothe recognized Cinder in the lightning strike. I mean, he recognized him but didnt connect that it was Cinder til in the Fae when the Ctheah tells him. (At least that is what I remember)
But that's legitamate since wasnt he wearing full plate at the time?

Also - Cinder has white hair as well. I dont think Denna ever mentioned the color of her patrons hair. So maybe you meant the Cinder/Bredon theory?

Anyway, I overall agree with what you're saying, good points.


I've thought Ash could be Cinder for awhile now myself. Ash and Cinder are terribly similar and Kvothe's knack with names is always something to take into account. Also, the timing when Denna gets her patron is during the time that Kvothe misses their date due to the Fishery burning down. Deoch tells Kvothe that Denna left with a white haired man after meeting him in the Eolian. Which I concede could be Bredon or Cinder though its not mentioned the man is older only white haired. Also, the beatings with the cane dont start until AFTER Kvothe drops a building on Cinder. So I think it's plausible he could be using a cane after such an incident.

I just never connected Bredon into that, it's just as plausible really. I'm just biased and hate the idea of three characters in one. Seems like cheating and I agree about Kvothe's alar and the use of glamory. No matter what, Cinders eyes would give him away I think. Kvothe senses him pretty well when they have that little battle.


Rachel (RachelSessum) | 112 comments No, I agree. I don't think there are 3 characters in one. It is too clunky for Rothfuss. I think that it is an either or scenario. Cinder/Ash or Bredon/Ash. I just don't think Cinder/Ash/Bredon could ever work out.

And you are right, I went back and looked and it was the Cthaeh that led him to the "discovery" that the man was Cinder. That said, when he saw him in the flash of lightning it tickled something in his memory. And Kvothe saw Bredon after he returned from the Maer's errand, and that was also after Felurian and Ademre where his sleeping mind seemed to come fully awake. At that moment in time, I don't think there would have been a glamour in the world that would have fooled Kvothe.

As for the Eolian, I suppose that I just assume that a person who was "in town" and a noble at that, would have gone more than the one time he found Denna and would have seen Kvothe perform. Unless he was specifically looking for Denna, which would lend itself to the Cinder theory. And the name "Master Ash" has also led me to speculate that it was Cinder.

So yeah. I think it will end up being one of the two of them, but not both.


Maenadsdance | 1 comments Hey, new to the group :)

I just want to chime in a bit about Denna's character -- I admit, she's not my favorite character in the book; she's not very well fleshed-out except as a beautiful, talented, unavailable girl. That Kvothe is constantly in pursuit seems to be the force that really ties them together - and it's very, very conventional.

That said, what I really LIKE about the Denna character is the contradictions in her characterization which I think are very true to the contradictory impulses of personality in real people with lives somewhat like Denna's... the fierce desire for independence and yet the inability to get by without manipulation; the aspiration toward integrity in personal relationships and romance (as seen in the Sir Savien/Aloine duet, and her "platonic" romance with Kvothe) versus her outright manipulation and cruelty toward men.

Denna strikes me as someone who was hurt very very badly at some formative point in her life, by a man probably, and who has since been walking the knife's edge between survival and self-destruction. That she would channel her considerable talent and ambition into serving an abusive patron seems dead accurate to me.


message 45: by Jack (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jack (JackSteimel) | 49 comments Eric wrote: "Problematic because we know he's been in Imre multiple times and Caudicus has been with the Maer for years. I'm not saying you're wrong, but it seems unlikely.

More likely people are Bredon and Ci..."

I have read the books 3 times . I agree with Bredon. He goes away at the same time as Denna.


message 46: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
I dont know...I'm of the personal opinion Denna is somehow manipulating Kvothe...

But I do agree with your general overview of her. Something obviously must have happened to her to make her the way she was and all that.
Like you said, not my favorite character, but still a good character none the less. She's not on the same moral compass as myself is all I was really trying to say. I disagree with her actions a lot and the ones she deems necessary I think could be easily argued against...but eh. Blindness when it comes to a persons own actions isnt uncommon. So...her character IS believable.


message 47: by Chris, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris (chris300) | 376 comments Mod
She just seems pretty normal to me. Does things for her own gain mostly, but isn't above helping someone (a girl who ran away from home persay) when the chance arises.


message 48: by Bill (new) - rated it 5 stars

Bill Denna is the female version of Kvothe. The parallels between the two characters are pretty strong.

Neither has any family (implied in Denna's case)

Both have a very strong independent streak.

Both are extremely well-traveled.

Both acquire very unique skills.

Both think the other is too good for them. (Hence the lack of consummation of their relationship.)

Both are hiding something from their past. (I'd assume that Denna has some history with the Chandrian much like Kvothe. And much like Kvothe, she doesn't reveal it for fear of ridicule.)

Both are acquiring information about the Chandrian as best they can.

I've got the feeling that at some point, probably long after it will do either of them any good, they will come clean with each other about their histories. They'll discover that if they had been just a bit more trusting with each other they could have averted some type of disaster. But of course, it will be too late at that point.


message 49: by Amber, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Amber (IvoryDoom) | 1465 comments Mod
I actually really like the idea I think another poster came up with...

That Kvothe and Denna will be on opposite sides. Where Kvothe blames the Chandrian and seeks info on them, Denna would feel the same about the Amyr.

I don't know if there is any actual back up to support it, but I thought it would be an interesting concept. Plus, Denna's song leads me to believe she isn't after the Chandrian in the same way Kvothe is, if she is "after them" at all.


message 50: by Cörey, Arcanist (new) - rated it 5 stars

Cörey (penguinstyles) | 56 comments Mod
Servius Heiner wrote: "I recall either stapes or the maer saying he was beheaded.Or that his head was returned to the maer. I'd have to check on that."

TWMF only says that he was taken care of, like Eric said.


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