Wes wrote: "My fascination of this novel was, and still remains, the Tines World inhabitants. Vinge has a real talent for creating bizarre yet strangely familiar alien life. The first few chapters with Peregrine place us in a confusing setting. Rather than clumsily explaining the Tines, we're thrown into the world, forced to make sense of these beings. I absolutely love it."

Wes' observation, which he posted in the first impressions section, seems a perfect place to jump off into Tines World. I, too, love the way Vinge just throws us into Peregrine's head and just lets us find our way, rather than feeding us tons of explication.

It got me instantly considering the problem of perception in A Fire Upon The Deep, and I think it's a theme Vinge is intentionally forcing us to think about. So many races come together with their own racial and cultural perceptions, and these are further confused by the perceptions of space-time and even by interaction with artificial intelligences. With so many perceptions, so many perspectives and points of view, how can anything be completely true?

I'll borrow an oft-used phrase from the book.

"They don't call it the Net of a Million Lies for nothing."

The problem of perception and truth is really displayed in the various Net feeds that we get to see the OOB receive throughout the novel. Some sentient species have gross misconceptions about the Blight and its "agents". Still others don't really understand what is even happening, as a result of meaning lost in translation. The Net in the Beyond seems comically similar to our internet, flamewars and all.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on the concept of self consciousness as a function of how many members the Tines have in a pack.

One of the most interesting details of the Tines species was their group mind. It seems like their consciousness is almost a signal that increases with constructive interference caused by the tympana they use to "think". But less than three members almost always results in a less-than-whole "person". And more than 6 or 7 usually reverts to madness or disbandment (except in the case of Amdi). Maybe there is a local maximum for the interference?

Another interesting component of the Tines World was that there existed an entire sociopolitical movement fueled by eugenics. Applying our coat of morals, Flenser was most certainly a monster in that regard. Even though Woodcarver is portrayed as the counterbalance to Flenser, she has practiced inbreeding--still a directed breeding program--for generations.

Indeed, we are shown that packs essentially treat singletons and duos as organs that may be used or discarded. But they are not just organs, enhancing biological function. They act to mold the actual character of the pack being. I would imagine this to be a terribly tough concept for a Human to wrap their mind around, and Vinge dutifully portrays this through Johanna's reluctance to grasp that Scarbutt was not individually responsible for her father's death.

For me, the Tines' world and the two lost children was the strongest part of the novel.

Wes wrote: "I'd like to hear your thoughts on the concept of self consciousness as a function of how many members the Tines have in a pack."

I've been giving this much thought, Wes, and I think it is a great question. Vinge seems to suggest, and makes a compelling case, for an incredible level of self-consciousness (and I take this to mean self-knowledge) within a pack. We get hints, from time to time, that each member of the pack is a portion of one's soul, and that when one pack member is lost that portion of the soul slips away (even though memories, impressions and even skills remain behind). But the members of a pack, let's take Peregrine for instance, are completely aware of every element of themself (I use the plural/singular on purpose here).

Peregrine knows himself in a way that is more intimate than any human I know, though I know many people who strive to know themselves as deeply. But for Tines it is just their nature to know themselves. Each aspect of himself is outside himself; he is made of exterior portions that have to communicate externally, forcing a level of knowledge that cannot be suppressed.

But then there is the issue of how many members a pack can support. We are told that four is the optimal number but we see packs of six and five. And we get glimpses of smaller packs, twos and threes, after battles. We are told that greater than six (and sometimes even six itself) can lead to madness, and that three or less leads to degraded intelligence. Vinge does a good job of showing how this would be without beating us over the head with it. More than six seems to simply be too much stimulation, too much input, too much sensation for a pack to handle; less than four seems to be the opposite: too little stimulation, too little input, too little sensation (which could be why the smaller packs become sexually active and ultra-violent -- an inherent desire to pump up stimulation). But something else is going on apart from external stimulation. There seems to be an emotional stability that comes from optimal numbers, which allows a pack to function well, and this emotional stability is instantly rocked by the death of a member. It would be interesting to see what would happen to a pack who had a member die of natural causes, wherein the death of that portion of the pack was expected.

It's all a fascinating concept, and certainly one that makes the Tines more alien than most other aliens I've seen portrayed. I think it's on par with the Gethen in LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness.

Great points, Brad. I especially liked this part.

"More than six seems to simply be too much stimulation, too much input, too much sensation for a pack to handle; less than four seems to be the opposite: too little stimulation, too little input, too little sensation (which could be why the smaller packs become sexually active and ultra-violent -- an inherent desire to pump up stimulation). But something else is going on apart from external stimulation. There seems to be an emotional stability that comes from optimal numbers, which allows a pack to function well, and this emotional stability is instantly rocked by the death of a member."

Perhaps we'll get some insight into these questions. In fact, I'm quite curious about what fate holds for Flenser and the Steel fragment. Has Flenser purged Tyrathect from his psyche completely? Will he take unto himself part of Steel?

Those who really enjoyed the Tines World may take heart in knowing that Vinge plans for his next novel to be a sequel to AFUTD set 10 years after those events (accoring to his wikipedia page).

Well, how I thought of it was like linkages between neurons where the number of members (or neurons) is less important than the number of links. Each additional member increases the links like so:
2 Tines: 1 link
3 Tines: 3 links
4 Tines: 6 links
5 Tines: 10 links
6 Tines: 15 links
7 Tines: 21 links

Having a line strung out reduces links to one-on-one. Some of Flenser's experiments play with this notion of links as well, such the one where one Tine is placed in the center of pack and acts as the sole hub for the whole pack.

What I found really interesting was the communication between the individual members of a pack through sound waves. So, barriers to sound or distance cause problems. As do reflective surfaces. Even more fascinating is the notion that different patterns cause different parts of a personality to surface more strongly.

Put this all together and you can imagine that the larger the pack, the harder it is to remain physically cohesive in a way that maintains the same number/cohesion of links that form the core personality. Added to that would be the greater variations from interference/blockage from external objects and packs.

Wes, I'm thrilled to know that Vinge plans a sequel. Thanks for the info!

Wes wrote: "Those who really enjoyed the Tines World may take heart in knowing that Vinge plans for his next novel to be a sequel to AFUTD set 10 years after those events (accoring to his wikipedia page)."

Also according to the Wikipedia page, he retired from teaching in 2000 to write full time, but he's only published one novel in that time (Rainbows End).

Something that bugged me was the Tines' ability to read humans' minds/emotions. I assumed they did so via the ultrasound. Is there any scientific basis for saying that human emotions can be perceived via sound?

Also, it makes sense that the Tines would have ultrasound if they were descended from "whales." It also makes sense that the "whales" would have homologous structures to Earth whales. But does it make sense for every animal in the forest to squeal above human hearing? Yes, the planet has widespread oceans, but it still strains my credulity.

Thomas wrote: "But does it make sense for every animal in the forest to squeal above human hearing? Yes, the planet has widespread oceans, but it still strains my credulity...."

You make a good point, Thomas. If we assume that the Tines are the most developed predator on their world it makes sense that some forest dwellers would have developed such defenses but not all, or most, as Vinge tells us. Our earth experience, which should provide the parallel, contains nothing of the sort. There are some animals who combat our sight with camouflage, but not all. Nowhere near all. So I can see how it would strain your credulity.