I've got both books but after my current read I'm going to tackle Rainbows end. I'm looking forward to it.

I'm not realy into cyber punk but Rainbow looks pretty good

Thanks for the suggestions, Brad! Some classics might be a nice start, and would perhaps guide me into the language and conventions of newer scifi books.

Maija wrote: "I just couldn't get into this book. I don't even know what it is that drives me away from most scifi books I've tried to read. I just can't get into the language, it's hard work to keep reading forward (the paragraphs don't just flow past like with many other books), and I can't find it in myself to be interested at all or care about the characters. And characters are the most important part for me in books...."

I can totally understand your feelings about A Fire Upon the Deep, Maija, particularly if you have always had a troubled relationship with sci-fi. It certainly wouldn't have been where I'd have suggested you start. As a fan of character the best sci-fi book to start with is Frankenstein, and then a shift into some of the H.G. Wells classics would keep you interested with their characters and give you a nice grounding in sci-fi convention. Then maybe Bradbury. After those three I think you'd find your way. Vinge definitely isn't the place to start.

I'm not a scifi kind of girl and I haven't really read much of it, so I decided to try again and give it a chance. That's why I chose to read the scifi selection this month instead of the fantasy one.

I got as far as chapter four (a lousy achievement, I know), then I gave up. I just couldn't get into this book. I don't even know what it is that drives me away from most scifi books I've tried to read. I just can't get into the language, it's hard work to keep reading forward (the paragraphs don't just flow past like with many other books), and I can't find it in myself to be interested at all or care about the characters. And characters are the most important part for me in books.

Well, I failed my Scifi test again.

I just started the book yesterday, so I'm only halfway through, but the introduction hit me in an interesting way. I think the way the author threw tons of chaos, ambiguity, jargon, etc., in there felt like an eighties-style technique, intended to throw the reader off balance, sending a message: "drop your preconceptions, let confusion reign, because this isn't like anything you've ever read before: aliens abide here."

The problem is, it became a cliché a long time ago (of course, the book was written in 1992...). Neuromancer had the same effect on me -- a dated technique that attempts to communicate strangeness.

Today I think a modern author would be more likely to take a subtle approach, introducing oddities piecemeal, letting the effect build over time.

But it didn't take me long to get into it. Vinge definitely constructed an intriguing universe here, although I think it is a tad too derivative of Brin's Uplift universe, which had been around since the early-mid-eighties. In both: humans, a trivial species with ambiguous antecedents, gets into a bit of trouble and gets the whole universe into something of an uproar.

I find especially charming his idea that Powers tend to stick around only a decade or so. He pioneered the idea of the technological singularity, which is one of the most intriguing memes to come out of SciFi in recent decades.

Vinge was on top of his game when he wrote this one. I've already added the prequel, A Deepness in the Sky, to my to-read shelf.

Paul wrote: "I see Brad and Whitaker have mentioned a comparison to Banks..." Just so you know, Paul, while there are similarities, I think Banks is better (personally), but I am still a fan of Vinge. I don't want to mislead.

Hi. My first post on the group. Just read the prologue on the tram on the way home. First instinct is the same as Danielle's comment I think this will take me a good while to get into this book. Normally after a prologue like that it would hit the "Some other day" pile. It just seemed too abstract. I've never heard of the author before. I like the idea of the good/evil theme but just hope there is some slant on it and its not a corny good/evil scenario. I see a Brad and Whitaker have mentioned a comparison to Banks, I've read quiet a few of the Culture novels and love them, hopefully the first few chapters hook me in

Thomas wrote: ""Ancient evil" is a concept that never made much sense to me..." Me either. And then to make matters worse, it feels like starting a novel with a deus ex machina, but one that we all know must inevitably crumble under the weight of its evil. It will lose because its evil. The underdogs merely have to fight.

I'm only through the prologue. I can see how it might remind one of Hal, but it reminded me of Gandalf's Moria speech in the LOTR movie. "Ancient evil" is a concept that never made much sense to me, but it does have a certain emotional pull.

I started this book this morning soon after I woke up. I quickly read through the Prologue and the first couple of chapters. It was difficult to put it down so I could get ready for work.

I hope the story continues to intrigue. I'm coming off quite a bit of space opera lately and I hope it doesn't warp my perceptions while reading this book. I finished last night The Fall of Hyperion and the week before finished Hyperion and Old Man's War.

I'll probably have to dive into some other genre soon. :)

I agree with the comments on how Vinge lets us discover how these characters think and move and communicate. At first I was completely confused as to what was going on, but when I caught on, it was definitely the most interesting part for me. I also like the way the name changes when one part of the whole dies and is replaced by another.

Yes, I very much like the way Vinge describes the pack-mind. Writing about alien modes of thinking is one of the hardest things about SF. We'll never truly be able to do it--we have enough problems crossing human culture gaps--but Vinge does a really good job at describing a totally different species. And I particularly like that he doesn't lay it out for us, but lets us discover it on our own. The consequences of the pack-mind-meld, the loss of a member, the way a personality changes depending on the composition of the pack--that's fascinatingly done. It's close enough to the way we think of a group having its own characteristics that we can identify, but so startlingly different that we truly feel on an alien world. Much better I would say than most aliens which are simply men with one or two characteristics amped up (cough--Spock--cough).

The comparison with Banks' is definitely a sound one, Whitaker. I haven't read Matter yet, but the way Vinge moves in multiple directions simultaneously instantly reminded me of Banks' Culture novels, and even some of his more "mainstream" novels (if any can be called that), like The Business. And like you, Wes, I prefer the way Banks handles his AIs. I believe in them instantly, and I didn't feel that way with A Fire Upon the Deep.

Whitaker wrote: "Then we got into the nature of the pack-mind, and further on into the Beyond with some truly alien aliens, and it's starting to turn far more interesting, more like Iain Banks and his Culture series."

I agree wholeheartedly. I had not read any of Banks' work the last time I tackled this book so the comparison was not available for me to make. After finishing AFUTD again, I must say Banks handles the AI much more effectively than Vinge. I'm also more attracted to Banks' frequent zero sum (with respect to the Humanoids. The Minds always profit) endings.

I have not read all of Banks' work but I find the one most similar in style to AFUTD is Matter. The description of the shell world and its inhabitants is as good as anything Vinge has written. Vinge has such great detail with his aliens, though. The Tines and the Spiders ( in A Deepness in the Sky) are so convincingly real. What do you think?

It's turning out to be more interesting than I thought it would be. I've got up to Chapter 9 so if you haven't reached there yet, you may want to consider the rest of this post **SPOILERS**.



My first take was that it was going to be some kind of hi-tech rescue a la the grand old masters, Asmimov and Clarke. Then, with Tine's world, I thought, oh ok, it's your standard medieval fantasy type trope a la Anne McCaffery. Then we got into the nature of the pack-mind, and further on into the Beyond with some truly alien aliens, and it's starting to turn far more interesting, more like Iain Banks and his Culture series.

I'm starting to really look forward to what will happen next.

I love the pre-modern-internet bulletin board style of communication.

I always find I read much faster when I'm in Tines World than in Relay or anywhere else. My speed is all over the place.

My initial impression is that it's taking me a loooong time to get into this book. I'm enjoying it so far, but I'm also frustrated because I'm reading a lot more slowly than I'm accustomed to.

The author comes across as being intentionally vague in his initial descriptions, dropping jargon words (or Vinge-world-specific words) with no explanation. Normally I enjoy this style of writing, it pulls me into the story quicker when I'm not being beaten over the head with vocabulary and explanations. But it's just not working for me here, though I can't pinpoint why.

I intend to finish the book, I'm just not sure I'll make it by January 31st.

*Possible spoilers*



This is my third time around on this particular novel, but it has been at least 6 years since my last reading.

The prologue was interesting in that it provided insight into the Straumli Perversion. I imagine it would be tough to write something that would sound convincingly like it came from its point of view, and I think here Vinge is only partially successful. Still, it is the only peek into the Power's mind at page 100. I don't recall if there is further exposition from the Perversion, but I am awaiting a future interlude.

My fascination of this novel was, and still remains, the Tines World inhabitants. Vinge has a real talent for creating bizarre yet strangely familiar alien life. The first few chapters with Peregrine place us in a confusing setting. Rather than clumsily explaining the Tines, we're thrown into the world, forced to make sense of these beings. I absolutely love it.

I'm just now reaching some background information on Pham Nuwen and the Skroderiders and I can't wait to re-discover how they fit into the story.

One thing I've noticed this time around that I hadn't before is that so many of the names and languages sound Norwegian or Scandinavian. Vinge mentions before the prologue that a trip to Norway helped shape the writing in AFUTD. I'll be keeping an eye out for signs of that influence.

My first impression was that everything I needed to know about the entire novel was in that Prologue in fragmented form. We get a hint of the importance of thought, Vinge's take on space-time, a race attempting the Transcend, and an introduction to "evil" of the newborn (reborn) Power. The "evil" bit really fascinates me, and I've been tracing it throughout the novel.

As for the the feel of the Prologue: I really loved the fragmentation. Vinge gives us much information in a very short time, and the images he produces are impressively vivid. I felt, at times, like I was in the mind of HAL, watching Dave trying to shut him down. Vinge is all about artificial intelligences, so this feeling didn't surprise me.

And being in the mind(s) of the a.i.(s) did something else. It instantly made me wonder how "evil" the Power really is.

None yet as my book is in transit from Amazon. I hope to provide first impressions early next week. I'm looking forward to reading this book.

Let's kick it off with the obvious topic. What are your first impressions, particularly of the Vinge's Prologue.