Book publishers and booksellers are faltering. But don’t blame the recession — it’s all the fault of the Internet used books market.
Bargain Hunting for Books, and Feeling Sheepish About It from The New York Times

Book publishers and booksellers are full of foreboding — even more than usual for an industry that’s been anticipating its demise since the advent of television. The holiday season that just ended is likely to have been one of the worst in decades. Publishers have been cutting back and laying off...

Bookstores, both new and secondhand, are faltering as well. Olsson’s, the leading independent chain in Washington, went bankrupt and shut down in September. Robin’s, which says it is the oldest bookstore in Philadelphia, will close next month. The once-mighty Borders chain is on the rocks. Powell’s, the huge store in Portland, Ore., said sales were so weak it was encouraging its staff to take unpaid sabbaticals...

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Do you buy second-hand books through the internet?

Are bookstores going the way of the dinosaur?

I have a hard time with this "feel bad for larger bookstores" thing, although I have some caveats. I like my local independent bookstore chain (Schwartz's, in Milwaukee) because of the recommendation cards, etc. And I'll use them sometimes. But (as I think I've said in other threads) I also think they're a good business, mostly, and manage costs, etc. I don't think bookstores 1) have an automatic and holy right to stay open, esp. if they're poorly managed, and 2) change is coming, no doubt, and the appropriate question seems to be "how can we evolve with the times?" rather than "how we can we keep change from happening?"

I rarely buy used books on the net, though. Do people really think that's the primary and only factor involved in the decline of some bookstores? That doesn't seem to make sense to me, but I could be wrong.

Noooo! I don't buy anything on the internet because I don't use credit cards (instruments of the devil!). I love second-hand bookshops.....you can't pick up and flick pages on the net.....and where would I take my Booksellers vouchers every birthday and Christmas!!

I buy used books online for 1 reason -- no new copies are available and the book is out of print. I'm often on the hunt for a hard to find book, and used online is often my only option.

On the other hand, I TRADE used books online -- I belong to Bookmooch and I have several books I obtained that way. Of course, in the last 3 months I've spent easily over $200 on books between the local indie and B&N (no Borders in this area anywhere, or, as far as I can find, in this state).

The truth is, change DOES happen, and those entities which cannot maintain a useful, viable place in the world tend to fade out. Books are a strange commodity because there is both the physical book and the content of the book which can be separated from the physical book. Many publishers and book sellers are wielded tight to the physical book (even though most of us are more interested in the content), but the physical book is passing.

There's also the factors of the incredible proliferation of books and authors -- the content creators -- and a long list of arguments for the demise of the publishing industry can (and has) been made on the idea that the market is just supersaturated with product, with the standard for quality dropping lower and lower. What was once simply "Fiction" has splintered into ever more specialized genres that devolve into copy upon copy of the same thing. Non fiction has splintered even further. Perhaps it isn't used books, or e-books, or anything like that causing the failure of publishing and bookselling, but just too many books overgrowing the available market.

Yes, I agree with Sherri here. And I want to try Bookmooch. Isn't there also the "green" (heh, I said I was sick of that term in the other thread) factor? Isn't reusing books good for the environment?

I could see some innovation emerging from this, e.g. ways for authors to get some additional funds from used book sites or something.

I was in Downtown Books in Milwaukee a couple days ago...five floors of used books...probably a million books, all dusty...and that's just one bookstore in Milwaukee. There are a hell of a lot of used books out there.

I wonder if once the tech is better (as I hear it is with Kindle) if electronic books will take off more.

I love bookstores, but I also believe in reusing resources. I buy both new and used books, and sometimes I even manage to part with books, and sell them back.
I would hate to see bookstores disappear, because there's nothing like browsing the shelves, and it's a lot easier to look through a book you are holding in your hands then one online.
On the other hand, you can't always find the book you want in a local bookstore. Books go out of print so fast!
And I think e-readers are the perfect format for mass market paperbacks, such as mysteries and romances that you read once and then are done with.
I want it all, is what I guess I'm saying.

RA, I just got the Sony E Reader. I've been looking at it for some years (I've had earlier versions of e-readers, so I'm picky). The Kindle didn't turn me on, but I really like the Sony. That being said, I still love holding a book in my hands or having them on shelves. However, I don't love moving them around from house to house so very much.

One thing that occurs to me is that booksellers are invested more in selling the physical book than they are the content of the book, which is why used books can be seen to harm their bottom line. It's where they invest a lot of money, too -- not just in manufacture but in transporting and storing books.

You'd have thought publishers would have jumped on E books and local print-on-demand operations to cut their costs and spend more money on editing and talent development, but it seems they are so very invested in things-as-they-are that, of course, changes going on around them are causing problems. There is so much speculation about what is actually going on in publishing. It seems publishers are no longer looking for fresh talent or something new, but just recycles of what sold hot last year ... sort of like movies.

I almost never buy new books. Almost always used on Amazon. (With some used from 2nd-hand shops and yard sales and some new on clearance at the local indie store.) Sorry. I'm poor.

Nothing wrong with economizing to afford books, Mindy. I have lots of ex-library books, myself.

Is that what you call the books you never returned?

No, those are in my secret stash nobody sees but ME, RA. ;)

The only new books I buy are the authors that have a brand new release and I simply can't wait for the library wait list to finally choose to send it me, or else I love these authors so much I damn well will support them! Otherwise I buy used books from stores, eBay or half.com. I can't afford to buy new books for everything I read. And I'm too into all the sensory factors of a book to want to go Kindle or any kind of computer reading.

Mindy, go check out Bookmooch.com. You pay to ship and that's not so bad since you can chose where you ship -- media mail runs about 1.50-2.00 -- so you get the book for the shipping. So far, all the books I've gotten have been in very good condition. You trade in books you don't want/have read to other folks, earn points, and spend your points on what you want. It's not as consistent and well organized as things on GR, but you can find a lot of goodies.

I will go check it out too! Except I pretty much beat books to death, I like to crack the spine so it stays flat...*gasp*

(me too, Lori)

Ya know, even though I'm a big fan of the e-book, I tend to keep my paper books as clean as possible. I put covers on my paperbacks when I'm reading them, I use Brodarts on the dustjackets of my hardbacks, I don't break spines or dogear pages (in fact, i tend to use bookmarks that hold the book closed so the book doesn't get damaged). When I pack them, I put them in archival plastic bags.

I mean, I really enjoy the physical book, which is why they are near to tumbling off my shelves...and why I like e-books. Much less work.

I use a bookmark that's like a clip, so it indents the pages a bit. Book jackets, Sherri! Hahah I remember making those in elementary school. My Dad owned a paint store, so I got to use pretty wallpaper.

I never dog-ear books. But I do treat paperbacks much more roughly than hardbacks.

Yeah, I'm very good with hardbacks. No cracked spines there. I actually like paperbacks more - the trade ones.

What's a brodart? Sorry, I'm drunk.

You have to crack the spines on some mass market paperbacks, because the gutter is too small, and the text disappears into it.
HATE that.

What's a gutter on a book? What in the hell are you people talking about?

RA!!!!! The gutter is the margin, you know, the WHITE space towards the spine.

So like the middle? I think I understand.

RA: Brodarts are the brand name for those plastic covers libraries and collectors put on their dust jackets.

http://www.shopbrodart.com/site_pages/bj...

Lori, I don't make my own. I use either leather ones I found at the bookstore or Hardbackers (www.hardbacker.com), which are actually easier to use. I also have a few of those Bible covers you can find in WalMart -- the ones without the little fish or crosses on it or anything. They zip up all the way around and have handles, which are great for heavy hardbacks.

Yeah, I'm serious about this stuff.

I get the plastic jackets to put on used books I give to people as gifts. It makes them into "collectibles" instead of just a cheap gift.

Hehheh, Jackie, my friend who deals in books does that. Since she sells mostly "used" books that she's found and then had signed by the author (when possible, of course), they are collectible. I blame her for a lot of my obsession.

Lori, you said, "I can't afford to buy new books for everything I read." I can't either, which makes me wonder who drives bookstore sales more - casual readers or hardcore ones?

Brooke, interesting question -- the local indie store sells a good deal of non-book stuff. They have all kinds of candles, doo-dads and dust collector things. They sell individual chocolates, and of course they have a coffee shop. Cards, calendars, Crocs (they have a whole wall section of those brightly colored plastic shoes) toys, nifty gifty items. The first time I went in I hardly noticed the books, but over time I've come to see them as a book store, too.

There's a used book store in town, an unusual one in that it eschews the usual mass market romances, thrillers, and westerns for a more eclectic collection. It's in the middle of a university town, so there's that, but I was still surprised. And pretty much ALL it has is books.

I think Sheri has hit the nail on the head. Much as the music industry failed to recognize that it’s content that matters; the publishing industry focused solely on trying to control distribution. The major publishers have all merged and/or been bought out, many having huge debts, in the expectation of earning 20% or more on their investment when in past years 6% in the book industry was considered pretty good. It's my understanding that smaller publishers, and some independents, who did not get into the celebrity author bidding wars and pay out huge advances, are doing OK.

Another huge factor in publisher profitability was an IRS decision several years ago to tax inventory. This meant that publishers could no longer afford to warehouse backlists and middle list books so now books go out of print really fast. That, of course, fuels the second-hand market, etc. etc. Mergers cause collateral damage to authors. One of my wife’s books Little Prince Know-It-All had sold reasonably well, 160,000 + copies. Then Golden Books was taken over by Random House, and her book was remaindered because the Road to Reading series it was part of, competed with a Random House series for young readers.

Just for laughs and giggles, my wife ( a Goodreads children’s author Sheila Kelly Welch and I started a small very local publishing company several years ago. As a librarian, I was interested in the economics of the industry. We started by helping some other people get their works (of little but local interest) published. We soon discovered the insidious relationship between reviews, book distributors and sales. Generally, review publications ignore books from small presses, and if books don’t get reviewed, they don’t get sales. We break even but the warehousing tax really hurts our bottom line. (That’s why I had a real job.) BTW, The New Yorker had a fascinating piece several years ago about the economics of advances and how difficult it was (is) for authors. One little tidbit: the entire market for literary fiction in the United States is about 7,000 copies, and most of this is sales to libraries.

We tried publishing another YA book Sheila wrote pseudonymously in iUniverse Unsaid by Anika Cassidy and, frankly, I think that print-on-demand might (perhaps should) be a part of the future of publishing along with electronic transmission of content using devices like the Kindle (I bought and loved the original Rocket Book ebook, but there is little content available for it.) Nothing ever goes out of print and availability is universal.

Ironically, Sheila has been much better received by the big chains for book signings than the smaller independents, such as Andersons in Chicago, which seems much more focused on celebrities and well-known names - even though Sheila has had manyvery good reviews. A big problem for less well-known authors now is that the larger chains buy only from big distributors like Ingrams and Baker and Taylor and they are reluctant to stock or carry any book that they don't think has a large market. It's a vicious circle. That's why I love Amazon. They'll offer just about everything and that’s where The Long Tail: Why the Future of Business is Selling Less of More has become so significant; but that long tail also spells doom for many of the larger companies.

Newspapers will have to think carefully about distribution, too. The Kindle model here makes tons of sense, but I predict huge disruptions in the way books, magazines, and newspapers sold and delivered.

Wow! Welcome, Eric, and thanks for that inside look at the book industry. I know I get calls from new authors who want to get their book into libraries, but don't know how to break in to the system.

And it's true that I get most of the books I select for my library system from Baker & Taylor, and I rely on reviews in making those selections. A book without reviews is an invisible book, pretty much.

That's one reason I hope Goodreads and similar sites begin to show up on publisher and author radar -- even when the reviews are not professional, we are influenced by the reviews we see here. As you might guess from the thread on Bestsellers, most of us don't read off the popular lists, but go our own ways and tell each other. I have so many books, some relatively obscure or out of print now, I've bought or want to get (one way or another) via what people have said about it.

It would be interesting to take the power of review out of the hands of professionals and give it to actual readers (I'm sure some of you know various theories/stories/anecdotes about reviewers and what they do or do not read). I wonder how much influence that would have on the big distributors, or how it might change the current distribution models.

I actually use GoodReads reviews sometimes when I'm trying to decide whether to get a book, and it doesn't have published reviews elsewhere.
GoodReads is especially helpful for manga series, which are very popular, but don't get reviewed regularly.

This is very interesting.

That is all. I have nothing intelligent to say, but I'm enjoying listening.

That's how I almost always feel, RA.

I've never let having nothing intelligent to say stop me :)

I rarely do, either, Sherri:) Maybe I should make a resolution to shut up more. But on GR people can't see you listening...you kind of have to say it, I guess:)

Jackie "the Librarian" wrote: "I actually use GoodReads reviews sometimes when I'm trying to decide whether to get a book, and it doesn't have published reviews elsewhere.

That's how I found GoodReads - I was looking for some reviews for various books and GR came up on the Google hunt. And that's what I used GR for exclusively for several months until I happened to notice all thewe groups.

And that's when I no longer had time to read so much. :)

Hi folks. I have been an avid reader of book reviews (NYTimes, Chicago Tribune, Library Journal, Booklist, and The New York Review of Books primarily) for many years, but I have always placed more faith in reviews on Amazon and Goodreads (since I discovered it) because they are reviews by people who love to read and don't have an ax to grind. The beauty of Goodreads (which I have become addicted to and been buying way to many books again) is the linkage between books and people. I know I have bought books I would not have heard of otherwise and then I resell them on Amazon or give them away. Maybe that makes me part of the problem. I do think the future lies with e-books. I am so looking forward to carrying several hundreds books around with me on a Kindle. Until then I still love my Rocket Book. :)

Give a full report on the Kindle, Eric. I went with the Sony, but I had an E-Bookman for years (crap battery life on a PDA sized device, but I loved it anyway.) I'm with you -- I think the future is in e-publishing, print-on-demand (too many people still want to read in places where you don't want to take an expensive electronic device), and high quality collectible editions (for the sensualist reader).

I try to support the independent bookseller in town--who is also a friend and the leader of our writers group. He's great and I want him to stay in business. But I can't afford to buy everything from him--wish I could. We have two Goodwill Bookstores in the area, one in Sarasota and one in Bradenton. Does anyone else have those in their towns? They are awesome, totally organized like a regular bookstore, and most of the books are 2 or 3 dollars. It's amazing what you can find in those places!! As far as box stores, Borders is my hands down favorite!! Best place in the world to write. And I do buy books from there, too. I really need to join a group called BBAA. I would start the meeting with the words, "My name is Leslie and I buy books."

I mean BBA-it wouldn't be BBAA, would it.

I have been exposed to the shopping philosophy that one should not pay full price for anything...for some 36 years now. I wont pay $25 or $35 for a new release hard back at a book store when I can get it in other venues for half that amount, and since I prefer to read paper backs any way and if I bought it today by the time I got to read it the book would be out in paper back; I can wait.

I absolutely agree with that, Charly.

Welcome, Leslie! I wish I had Goodwill bookstores in town, but Olympia is too small for that kind of specialization. Even the shelves in the Goodwill store we do have aren't all that organized.
If I'm going to own a book, I usually prefer to get it in hardback.

Leslie, ain't GoodWill THE BEST????

I was thinking about exactly what Charley's saying yesterday. I read something similar not long ago in a story about Milwaukee boutiques struggling in the economy and discounting more than usual:

http://www.jsonline.com/business/3642078...

I was particularly struck by this quote from a boutique owner:

"I had a customer just come out and tell me, 'Ten days before Christmas, I know you'll mark those jeans down to get rid of them, so I'll just wait,' and that's frustrating," Meyer said.

I have to admit I'm the same way. In this economic environment I know that heavy discounts are the norm, so if something's not on sale, I'm in the "What the hell? You really don't think I'm paying full price for anything, do you?" frame of mind. The same applies to books at Borders and Amazon, although on the rare occasions when I shop at the local independent stores I'll usually pay full price. I agree that they don't have the buying power or ability to put things on heavy sale like the larger stories.

Why do you want them in hardback, Jacks? I tend not to like hardbacks as much.

Hardbacks are so much nicer to shelve, RA :) At least, that's one of my reasons. In books I know I'll read often (like my Sherlock Holmes set -- I'm nutty enough that I have a leather omnibus, the 2 book annotated set, a paperback set, AND assorted E-versions) I prefer hardbacks -- they tend to be less subject to degradation than paperbacks. Also, as a collector, I know they have more eventual value (or will burn longer if things get really bad).

I have price limits on books, but in general I'm not so parsimonious -- when I buy new, I'm not looking for bargains, but a book. If I'm not planning to buy new, I buy used or I trade for it. Some authors I want new, in hardback, and that affects my buying choices. Discounts are nice, especially for chain stores, but my local indie stores are businesses I support, so I pay. Too many of them have gone under, not for poor management or lack of service, but because they were simply not able to take advantage bulk buying (which is part of what allows discounts).

Discounting books is usually the last step before remaindering -- if a book doesn't sell, the book is destroyed, and stores can't keep books around forever -- they have to turn stock over to get new stuff in. The discount doesn't represent a cut in profit, but the last change to wring the cost of the book out. Profit margins on books are slim to start.

Maybe it is the bargain hunting that's contributing not only to the death of the book industry, but to the sameness and mediocrity of book offerings. WalMart is only going to sell certain kinds of books, and if mass appeal is the only way to sell, then diversity in publishing is going to shrink. Just like anything to which statistics can apply, those high points in the Bell curve doesn't always represent the BEST or most appealing choice so much the choice that the least number of people detest.

Here in Baltimore, we have the magnificent Daedalus outlet. They're ostensibly a remaindering store, but far pickier than most of those book sale places. And I'm not sure exactly what's remaindered and what's not, since they have plenty of very new releases.

We also have the Book Thing (http://www.bookthing.org), which used to be a tiny moldy basement, and now fills an entire warehouse. It's a free book store. Every book in it was donated. They stamp the inside with a little stamp that says this book is free and should never be sold again. You can take as many books as you want, and keep them or give them back or give them away.
I imagine things like that would be pretty scary to publishers as well, if they caught on in other cities. Oddly, they get along fine with the small bookstores in town; maybe because you can't go in assuming you'll find any particular title.

The things I buy new, not at Daedalus: books by friends, or authors that I know can still use the money and the numbers. I special order through a friend's store, or order from Amazon if he's having trouble getting it, or go to Barnes & Noble if I really want it NOW.

Older books, books by people who are now dead, and speculative buys I don't mind buying used or remaindered. I have similar theories for what music I can buy used, colored by the fact that I'm a musician. And I have HUGE fights with my baby sister, who thinks that the internet exists for her to take media for free.

I like new books. I'm funny that way. That said, I do take advantage of Borders' coupons and other discounts. I've been getting a 30% off coupon every week lately and I got at least two 40% off coupons too. Also, last month, I found copies of two books I've been wanting to read, Anansi Boys by Neil Gaiman and A Thread of Grace by Mary Doria Russell, for $5.99 each in hardback on the bargain book rack. That's less than a mass market paperback. I found another book I wanted to read in trade paperback for $3.99 yesterday. I'm at the point now where I wait for a coupon before buying a book, and I always check the bargain book rack because they are getting titles there that I want to read.