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Voyager (Outlander, #3)
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Archived > Group Re-Read (SPOILERS) of Voyager! Topic question #130 on page 3

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message 1: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments We're moving right along!

The topic questions won't start until Sunday 5/6. But until then, please start up the chat!


Diane | 844 comments I started listening to Voyager this past weekend (I could not wait) have been enjoying it a lot. Personally I do not think audio books are for me unless i have read them before because I can get distracted easily but it sure is convenient when I am doing house work. I look forward to our discussion.


message 3: by Carren (new)

Carren Kay | 939 comments I'm looking forward to this re-read as Voyager is one of my favorites in the series. So much going on!


Jamie (Epic_Lover) | 15 comments I am currently reading Voyager now and this will actually be my first time. I am actually enjoying it very much thus far. At first I thought the time jump would be weird but so far it is working for me. I was actually biting my nails when Claire is walking through Edinburgh.


Carol (carol_ficklen) | 9 comments I am also reading it now for the first time. It is great so far!

I had read Outlander and Dragonfly in Amber many years ago and have re-read both of them recently. It's exciting for me to not be able to anticipate what's going to happen! I can't believe how addicted I'm becoming to these books.... :)


message 6: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Voyager is one of my favorites too! I cant wait to chat about it more extensively!


message 7: by Deena (new) - added it

Deena | 173 comments Voyager is my favorite (besides Outlander)!


Lori McD (LoriMcD) | 657 comments Dee wrote: "Voyager is my favorite (besides Outlander)!"

Mine, too! A friend of mine just finished up the audio book last night. I invited her to join in the discussion here - hope she will!

Looking forward to chatting Voyager!


Tina | 162 comments I have been waiting for this. I just finished the audio (my re-read) and I loved it again. This is my favorite book of them all, other than Outlander, and even that is close. Can't wait to start chatting about it!!!


message 10: by Dawn (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dawn (Delta108) | 62 comments I'm interested to see why it is everyone's favorite book of DG. I could do without the preliminary first 1/5 of the book. But anticipation is part of the fun.


message 11: by Fawn (new) - rated it 5 stars

Fawn | 403 comments I read Voyager and I am listening to it on audio now. There are so many little things I wish I could be jotting down. I have been walking to work so I listen on the way. When I am at home I can read/listen and take notes. But I have to say I am really enjoying this listen!


Lori McD (LoriMcD) | 657 comments I actually do have Voyager as an audio book. I was purchasing a gift membership for a friend to Audible.com, and... long story short, I ended up downloading "Voyager" to my Kindle. I've listened to a few parts of it - mostly the beginning. I think I'll try to listen to more of it this go-round, especially my favorite parts!


message 13: by Tina (new) - rated it 5 stars

Tina | 162 comments Dawn wrote: "I'm interested to see why it is everyone's favorite book of DG. I could do without the preliminary first 1/5 of the book. But anticipation is part of the fun."

Voyager is my favorite (besides Outlander) because it has more action then the others. It does go a bit long and it seems some of the parts are just there to make it longer. I do like the beginning with Brianna and Roger and Claire, then (view spoiler) There is also a lot of Jamie and Claire interaction and that is always a plus!!!


message 14: by Lilly ~ Lihllith~ (last edited May 03, 2012 12:05PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Lilly ~ Lihllith~ (Lihllith) | 12 comments I really enjoyed the beginning of this book for one reason. It didn't start out saying Jamie was dead or had died. Unlike Dragonfly in Amber we start this book with some hope that Jamie might have survived Culloden.

At this point right before I started reading this book I was knee deep in YouTube for all the documentaries I could view about Colloden, Bonnie Prince Charlie and of course the Frazier Clan. So I was thoroughly familiar with what happened to the men, the actual battle and that idiot Prince Charles.

Unfortunately for me. Gabaldon was ready for that kind of tactic so knowing those facts did not prepare me for the things that happened next to Jamie Frazier it all just made me anxious about the possibilities of what could happen next!
James is such a common name and the Frazier Clan is a big Clan. They're more famous that I realized particularly the Old Fox. It was shock to realize how much historical facts were used which thoroughly made the story come to life for me.

For those that are interested watch documentary at own risk.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSkW6u...
I say at own risk because it's very old and may cause some to have flashbacks of being in your elementary or high school history class. LOL!
Their are 5 parts to the entire thing and the bit about the 'Old Fox' starts in part 2 but... Don't watch any further! Part 3 - 5 has spoilers if you haven't yet read the books after this!

For that moment I did feel a bit like Roger and Brianna combing through Wikipedia and historical Highland sites and a few Jacobite sites and also one site in particular Undiscovered Scotland which has tons of facts and a historical timeline.


message 15: by Shawn (last edited May 05, 2012 06:19PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Shawn Bird (ShawnBird) | 3 comments I like all the links you've provided! I am interested in exploring them, as I can not get enough lately. I started the series Oct 2011 and I'm on my 7th read through since (while writing my own book and working full-time). --sigh-- I've got hubby on them now, and so there is hope I'll get to Scotland sometime to explore all these places. Oh. I was at the Tower of London in March and saw familiar names (Old Fox and Balmarino) on the plaque of those buried there. I know what you mean about history coming alive, I had to touch the plaque and send them some thoughts.


message 16: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments The start of Voyager shows Claire and Bree researching Jamie's life after Culloden, eventually discovering that he is still alive. We, as the reader, actually get flashbacks of Jamie's time without Claire. Essentially we get a third of the book, give or take, filling in the 20 years they were separated. What did you take away from this? What stood out as particularly terrible, or particularly exceptional? (Please note that we will be discussing Claire's life next week, so let's try to stick to Jamie mostly.)

Myself, personally, I really identified with Jamie during his time as the Dunbonnet. In the cave, trying to stay with his family and avoid prison. This also brought to light what happens with Fergus and what causes Jamie to eventually turn himself in, in order to get the reward money for his family.

I also felt for him after Willie was born. Knowing how hard it would have been to take a backseat and watch his son grow up not knowing who he is. I think that it's such a testament to the kind of man he is. To sacrifice his own heart for the betterment of those he loves.


Lori McD (LoriMcD) | 657 comments I was so happy to see Jamie's life during that time. It was strange, at first, to see it in the 3rd person perspective, but I got used to it and started to like it. It was easier to know what Jamie and the others were thinking, not just how Claire saw and heard and interpreted it all.

I was overjoyed that Jamie was alive, but his journey from Culloden to Lallybroch to being the Dunbonnet to Ardsmuir to the Lake District... it was bittersweet. My heart was so full and so heavy for Jamie, with all that he had to bear. With all he gave up. And yet he kept going - he kept living - he kept caring about his family and those he considered to be his responsibility. The description of when he'd come from the caves to the house... brings tears to my eyes every time. The sense of sadness, of grief, of being something less than human... and then changing, gradually, back into some part of himself.

I especially love the conversation between the McNab boy, Fergus, and young Jamie when Jamie's shaving and talking about women - LOL! I was glad there was humor in there, too. And then what happened to Fergus - it was such a shock! I felt for Jamie, turning himself in, but there didn't seem to be another choice. Especially since Ian and Jenny and the family were in constant danger.

I didn't even mind Mary McNab giving herself to Jamie in the cave. I thought I would, but I didn't. It was a sweet scene with such sadness. Sadness for Mary, that she longed for Jamie because he was such a good man, and she'd never had a good man. Sadness for Jamie, because he didn't want to "cheat" on Claire, and yet he appreciated and understood what Mary was offering him wasn't taking anything away from Claire, but rather giving himself something to take with him.

Ardsmuir was better and worse. Better in that Jamie finally seemed to get the respect and lairdship that he was due. Better because of his friendship with Lord John. And then worse, because of Lord John. It's so sad that LJ read Jamie wrong. I suppose each LJ saw that Jamie was grieving, too, and he reached out without really thinking it through.

The Lake District was tough, because Jamie was still under Lord John's nose, and then Geneva! What a spoiled, selfish girl. Jamie was too good to her, IMO, when he was with her; I suppose he was taking as much for himself as he was giving, but still. I hated that Jamie felt responsible for Geneva; if that selfish little girl had been careful, like she was told to, there wouldn't have been repercussions - at least not for Jamie. But there wouldn't be Willie, either. Seeing Willie grow and contrasting that with what we found out about Bree... again, bittersweet.

Jamie had so much put upon him. He kept taking on all that was piled upon him and giving everything back. I was so upset with Jenny and even Ian, because they obviously didn't like the way that Jamie chose to make money, even though it was for their benefit. And, in a way, it hurt to see Jamie turn to such means; he'd always been an honorable man, above-board. I guess he took the most "honorable" way into crime, since smuggling was usually not viewed as criminal unless you were the law and not benefiting from the smuggling.

It was a relief and a sadness to see how Jamie ached for Claire. How she was constantly with him. His love for her was what every woman wants - that enduring kind of commitment and never-ending love, regardless of where he was or what was happening. I think that's why the episode with Leoghaire was so upsetting... but I'm sure we'll talk about that all later.


message 18: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Jamie was a very honorable man, but he always that honor sometimes didn't go hand in hand with the law. I think his smuggling was a bit like that. He needed to support his family, and he did it, and to him that was honorable. Or at least that's how I always thought about that time.

I never really despised Geneva, honestly. Yes, she was a completely selfish girl. She reminded me a bit of Loaghaire when she was young. And the thing is, I expect girls that age to be a little self involved, they're still learning and growing. And really, I couldn't blame her for not wanting her first time to be with some gross old man with stinky breath. How horrible. Maybe her means were poor, but her reasons were fair. And I think that in the end, Jamie understood that and that's why he still had a soft spot for her. She was a young girl in a terrible position completely out of her control. So, anyway, I didn't like her but I could understand.


message 19: by Dawn (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dawn (Delta108) | 62 comments I was finally relieved that Jaime turned himself in and used the English bond money they had posted for his capture to aid his clan. Jaime is a great Laird and I'm sure everyone knew what he did & is why he had everyone's respect. He probably had it during the war too.

I also found it strange that the English (Lord Dunsany family) were afraid to have him working in their stables, fearing he was violent. They also treated him as a commoner, where in reality a few years prior in France he would of been part of he upper class.

This part of the book is as hard for me to read as the end of DIA, when they are all starving and at war.

Social injustice, no, blatant social injustice is just very to read and to know that there was truth to what DG has written, makes just that much harder to understand why it was permitted.


message 20: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Well, I'm pretty sure they hid who he actually was from the Dunsany family. That's why he went by Alec at that time. LJ didn't want them to know how notorious he was in the uprising, because they may not have been willing to take "Red Jamie".


message 21: by Dee (new) - added it

Dee (austhokie) | 1015 comments that was why there was such a big deal with Geneva intercepted that letter from Jenny, because she threatened to tell people about who he really was


message 22: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Right, that's right.


message 23: by Carren (new)

Carren Kay | 939 comments I always felt that Jamie went on living (if you can call if that) after Culloden. He missed Claire terribly, but knew that life wasn't just about him and Claire. He did what he knew in his heart was right when he sent Claire back. He also did what was right for his family and those that he loved. Turning himself in, making sure his people were cared for was all he wanted. A very honorable thing to do.


message 24: by Lotte (new)

Lotte | 329 comments I am so glad that we have reached Voyager now, this one being my favourite one of the series. It all began with Outlander and therefore this stands a bit apart.

This time I do not read it by myself, but listen to the wonderful Davina Porter, having reached the part when Young Ian is lost at the silkies' isle. Claire and Jamie are newly reunited and already past experiencing the main difficulty of their further life together - Laoghaire - which will keep them busy also in the years to come. But the beginning of this book also contained most of the information of their lives apart, 20 years spent alone or/and with other partner(s). This week we concentrate on Jamie's life after Culloden: I think it was quite natural for him to let himself be captured by the English, thus ensuring some money for his family and tennants and simply not being able to go on living hiding in a cave. Even prison seemed to be better, he also ha dthe luck to meet Lord John there. This time I concentrated to learn how they could have called each other friends. I think it might have started with their playing chess without a chessboard and culminating with LJG taking care of William, we will hear about this towards the eand of the book, though. Most important is that Jamie will be father of a son and how it came to it. Yes, Geneva was spolt and she was blackmailing Jamie, and yet she won his respect. Saying good-bye to William, he took him to his loft and he baptized him a Papist "William James", with his rosary as a farewell present. Two most heartwrenching scenes are there (for me):

Willie: "Who do you remember?" Jamie: "Oh, a good many people. My family in the Highlands - my sister and her family. Friends. My wife." And sometimes the cancle burned in memory of a young and reckless girl names Ganeva, but he did not say that.


Willie started for the door, but stopped halfway, suddenly distressed again, with a hand pressed flat to his chest. "You said to keep this to remember you. But I havn't got anything for you to remember me by!" Jamie smiles slightly. His haaaeart was squeezed so tight, he thought he could not draw breath to speak, but he forced the word out. "Dinna fret yourself," he said. "I'll remember ye."



AND LADIES, DO YOU KNOW WHAT WE DID LAST WEEK?

We forgot, or at least did not remember, the 291st birthday of such a man. So sorry, Jamie! This last sentence is also true to you: Dinna fret yourself, we'll always remember ye!


message 25: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments GREAT POST! Those Willie quotes made my own heart squeeze. It breaks my heart, thinking of him split off from Willie. It also squeezes my heart to remember (view spoiler).

Lori posted a happy birthday to our Jamie in the James Alexander Malcom MacKenzie Fraser thread, but you are so right and I got a huge smile reading your tribute!


Lori McD (LoriMcD) | 657 comments Lotte - yes, that scene gets me every time, too. It makes me tear up just to read it in your post!

I think that's why I love Voyager... there are so many poignant scenes in there. We learn so much more about Jamie and the way he thinks; we're no longer always in Claire's head, seeing Jamie through her eyes only. Not that she doesn't love the man, but it's different to see him through a neutral 3rd person perspective.

Wendy, you're right about the smuggling. I know that in those days, smuggling was hardly considered a crime. Many wouldn't have survived without the money - then and for years and years later, especially during the Napoleonic wars between Britain and France. It was considered honorable. And Jamie would and did do anything and everything in his power to help his family and those under his protection. He probably didn't think of it as less than honorable, and he always did have a bit of the devil in him, loving to skirt the law (especially English law) whenever he could.

Geneva... I see the other side of the coin, but I can't get over my personal prejudice of her. She was only a teenager, and I fully understand not wanting her only sexual experiences to be with a moldy old man - especially when she has a prime specimen of a man like Jamie she can blackmail! But that's always puzzled me a bit; if that moldy old man couldn't get it up (or so his servants intimated), how did he intend to have heirs with Geneva? Or was he just so upset to learn that she'd already been with another man, and so he didn't touch her? It makes me shudder to think what his plans might have been for her if he really wasn't capable; I always wondered if his anger was more about him not directing how/when she got with an heir more than the fact that she did.


message 27: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments I think it was the fact that he felt cuckolded, honestly. I think you hit it on the head with that. If he couldn't procreate I can imagine he would have wanted to find his own 'seed' so to speak. Sorta like Dougal/Colum/Leticia with Hamish.


message 28: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa | 345 comments I thought of Jamie on my husband's birthday which is May 2nd but couldn't remember if Jamie's bday was May 1st or May 2nd LOL! Ever since I first read Outlander and learned of Jamie's birthday, I say a silent "happy birthday Jamie!" after wishing the same for DH :D

I'm rereading Voyager for the second time ever but listening to it this time and just finished the part where Jamie has decided to let himself be caught. My fav scene was already described by Lori - the boys watching Jamie shave and their conversation. His description of feeling human again by the act of shaving and how his family learned not to expect any words from him until after. It was a time for him to gather his thoughts - how he described that it wasn't for lack of anything to talk about but that the words got all tangled up and clogged at his throat (or something like that) - just tugged my heartstrings. I can't imagine life in a cave for 7 long years!

When Jenny asked about Claire and Jamie said only that she was gone and not to bring her name up again - it brought tears, just thinking of his heartache. The same with Claire - what she was going thru when she returned and was in the hospital and first saw Frank. How she didn't want to open her eyes for fear of her life with Jamie would quickly fade away - she wanted to hold Jamie's face in her mind as long as possible.

What I couldn't believe was how she was able to not look at any history books that were RIGHT there, to see what happened to Jamie, to know for sure whether he died at Culloden or not. She says that she couldn't bear to and I can sort of understand that but still - there wasn't closure. And to think, if she had known sooner that Jamie was alive, what would she have done?

Lilly, those links you posted are great! Thanks :D


message 29: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Lisa, you just made me get a lump in my throat. Kudo's for mentioning how Jamie couldn't talk about Claire and about how Claire didn't want to open her eyes. I can't imagine the grief those two went through at that point, to lose each other. And it makes me completely understand how later Jamie says he didn't tell her about Loaghaire because he was afraid, that he couldn't live through losing her again.


message 30: by Dee (new) - added it

Dee (austhokie) | 1015 comments re: Lisa's comment about reading history books - i think a lot of times, unless they were a big named person (like the old fox), then they normally don't rise to the level of being mentioned in history books - unless it is a very narrowly defined research topic and then its hard to get stuff published


message 31: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa | 345 comments Now that I'm up to the part where Claire is ready to go back and find Jamie *sigh*, I read the part where Jamie decided it was time to leave Helwater and the heart wrenching scene between him and Willie OMG! Lotte, you included a part of it in your post but I didn't read it until after I got that far in the book. Kleenex time! I love how DG inserts humorous pieces in near the heartbreaking parts, sometimes, to lighten the reading (thank goodness!). When Willie was asking Jamie about Papists and how he wanted to be one too, to be like Jamie and how that touched Jamie's heart and soul. Ahhhh... I'm so glad that Geneva did what she did after all, otherwise there would be no Willie.


message 32: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Last week we focused on Jamie, now let's switch to Claire. Let's talk about her life with Frank and what we think they did or did not mean to each other. What were your thoughts about Claire's 20 years without Jamie?


Diane | 844 comments I am saddened with the thoughts of Clair's life with Frank. To be with someone and truely have feelings for them but so alone and unfulfilled at the same time is awful. I think they both felt that way. In some ways she was as much a prisoner as Jamie. I do not like Frank much mostly because of the cheating that I believe happened even before she went through the stones but I think he loved Claire and felt abandoned by her physically, emotionally, intimately and sexually. Rereading this made me feel for him also. The one truely touching moment between Frank and Claire was the night he suckled her overfull breasts and she let him. A lot passed between them at that moment and for both of them I was sorry that moment passed.


message 34: by Carren (new)

Carren Kay | 939 comments Claire went on with her life, much the same way as Jamie went on with his life, which in my opinion was really no life at all. She went through the motions, but was always someplace else, except when it came to Bree. Bree was her anchor to Jamie.
She found solace in medicine, becoming a doctor, fufilling a dream from long ago, to be a healer.

She also kept her promise to Frank not to divulge who Bree's real father was until after he was gone. I respect Claire for holding that promise as she could have told Bree a number of times.


message 35: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments I felt bad for Frank myself. Not that I think Claire could have been any different from what she was, she was just as much a victim of circumstance as he was. She didn't ask to be hurtled back in time and meet Jamie. But she did, and she loved him. But, I still felt bad for Frank. Did he probably cheat on her during the war, yeah... I think he probably did too. But for some reason it never made me that angry. War is tough stuff, lol. I could never ever do it. They were separated for years, and as they said, they only saw each other a handful of times over that period and once was only for a weekend. Was it wrong, probably, was it understandable, definitely. Even Claire admits to having infatuations and kissing a bit when she was nursing in the war. Granted, I think Frank did more, this is also a form of cheating (in my book).

Regardless of his mistakes, or her mistakes, they stood by each other when it would have been easier to split. They gave Bree a good life and Frank loved her despite the history. I think he truly loved Claire, and she loved him as much as she could. It wasn't Jamie love, but it was still love.


Jamie (Epic_Lover) | 15 comments I too believe that Jamie,Claire, and Frank all made the best of a bad situation. Even before Claire left Frank and went through the stones, their relationship was very distant. The main reason they were in Scotland was an attempt to try and have a 2nd honeymoon, a reconnection.Claire needs for a familial connection is what I believed strenthened her need for Frank. She needed him and he loved her so why not. Claire was also a very tender loving person, which is what makes her such a good doctor.However when she found Jamie is was a different need, a more primal one, one that reached from her soul. Claire never had a family, and lived a very nomadic life with her Uncle. She was use to being on the move and had I imagined embraced the idea of constant change as a natural part of life.I believe that while she was with Frank, he meant alot to her. She loved him as much as she though possible. However I don't think it was all consuming. In terms of Frank, in death there could be life afterwards for her, I believe she would have accepted this and lived as she did however with Jamie and the idea of his death she died or at least a part of her did. There was no life, no living just existing in what was and what will never be again. I believe that in the 20 years Claire spent without Jamie she did alot of thinking and was very resolved, in her life as well as the life she had wanted for Bree. She appeared to miss Frank however she didn't grieve for him not as passionately as she had for Jamie.


message 37: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments I think that's a good point, Jamie. She did miss Frank. It wasnt the same as the tearing grief she had for Jamie, but she obviously missed him and even felt his presence at times.


message 38: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa | 345 comments When I first read Outlander, I liked Frank and the scenes at the bed & breakfast in Scotland. But that changed later to some degree. He did love Claire, in his way, which was to give her support where she needed it while carrying on with his mistresses. I'm not so sure he would've stopped having his flings even if Claire loved him like she did Jamie. Could he resist those tempting adoring students?

Becoming a doctor helped Claire in so many ways, in order to carry on without Jamie. Bree and her career. It was a good thing that Frank bonded with Bree and was there to help in caring so that Claire could attend med school and keep the crazy hours as a doctor later. Could she have done that without Frank's support? I don't think so. She didn't have any family or friends in Boston. I guess she could've moved back to England, but I don't recall that she had anybody there either.

The scene where Claire goes back to Boston to tie up all loose ends, goes back to the house she shared with Frank, the bedroom scene and she says her goodbyes to Frank was touching, and sad. Twenty long years of a cold marriage. Geez. Gives me the shivers.


message 39: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments A cold but on some level, respectful marraige. I think that even though she knew he had affairs, she respected him too. I mean, she had someone else in her heart and they didn't often have sex.

It was a hard time, but I think she loved him.

I don't know if I think that Frank would have had affairs if things hadn't played out the way they did. I think Franks affairs were caused by distance, either physically distant or emotionally distant. But, I guess we'll never know for sure.


message 40: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa | 345 comments Yes, they had a respect for each other and their space. Claire said a number of times that she had loved Frank "once" but it sounded like that "once" was a long time ago, back before she met Jamie. It must've been torture for Frank to see that and with Claire's glass face (is that the right expression?) how could he miss it, that she loved someone else. And to see the evidence in Bree every day.

I think that Frank and Claire was a mismatch from the very beginning. She admitted to being very young and wasn't she one of those adoring students of his in the beginning? In the end, they were unable to fill each other's needs.

When Frank accused Claire of having an affair with Joe Abernathy and showed an ugly mean streak, that's when I really disliked Frank. Sure, he was jealous but some of his comments about mixed race relations was awful and hateful.


Sandy (sandyc88) | 187 comments I wonder if Claire would have been more likely to leave Frank had she been a 21-st century woman. I have no idea what the statistics were, but I am guessing divorce is more prevalent (and socially acceptable) now than it was in the 1940s & 1950s.

Claire returned to Frank irrevocably changed. She loved Jamie with all her heart. She sincerely believed he was dead and there was no going back to him. But to live in a loveless marriage with a man who constantly cheats? Such a difficult situation, but the strong, resilient Claire that we know and love...would she have really put up with that crap? Yes, it was good of Frank to love Bree and raise her as his own, but still, it's possible to share parenting responsibilities and live in separate households.

Bree is affected by their cold relationship. (view spoiler)

Just some random thoughts. I really did enjoy seeing the 20 missing years for Claire and Jamie. They constantly thought about each other and never lost their love. In fact, that love grew over the years despite the distance (and presumptions of death).

This was my 2nd favorite after ABOSAA, but I've just re-read DOA and I think it has surpassed Voyager (mainly because I am a Roger fan).


message 42: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Lisa wrote: "Yes, they had a respect for each other and their space. Claire said a number of times that she had loved Frank "once" but it sounded like that "once" was a long time ago, back before she met Jamie...."

Claire said she met Frank through her Uncle Lamb, as they were both historians. But yeah, I think in a sense she was caught up in who he was more than who he was, if that makes sense.


message 43: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments Sandy wrote: "I wonder if Claire would have been more likely to leave Frank had she been a 21-st century woman. I have no idea what the statistics were, but I am guessing divorce is more prevalent (and socially ..."

You are so right Sanday, Bree did say that in Drums. But she also made mention that, until she had something to compare Claire and Frank's relationship to, she didn't really realize what was lacking. That tells me that they did a pretty decent job of giving her a happy childhood.


Lori McD (LoriMcD) | 657 comments Claire... This time reading Voyager, I was struck by how much sympathy I give Jamie, especially for all that happened to him during the 20 year separation, and yet I didn't quite give Claire that same sympathy. This time, I came to a similiar conclusion that Diane did - Claire was somewhat of a prisoner, too.

She was trapped in a marriage with Frank. And I agree that at one time, Claire did love Frank. It was obvious in Dragonfly in Amber. Claire made the decision to stay with Jamie, because he was her heart, her love, her soulmate. But Frank was still a man that she'd loved - the man she made her first big commitment to.

I know it's tough to play the "what if" game, but IMO, Claire's and Frank's marriage probably wouldn't have been all that different even if she'd never stepped through the stones. They did love one another and obviously had some sort of commitment to each other. But was it enough? Since Frank couldn't father children, Claire would have been left childless; I think at some point, she'd have left him.

It seemed as if they stayed together because of Bree... and because Claire felt honor-bouond to Frank for not abandoning her - for taking her in and not publicly shaming her. But I don't know if the love she had for Frank when she returned was much more than gratitude and familiarity. And I did feel badly for Frank this read-through - more than I ever have before. Because I saw that Frank truly was an honorable man, and that he truly did love Claire, or at least he wanted to love her. I think that Frank thought regardless of what did or didn't happen to Claire (or what he was willing to believe), that he was there and Jamie wasn't. And I think Frank thought he could make Claire forget Jamie and start over with him. It's sad for Frank that it just wasn't possible; it's sad that he never met his soulmate, because I don't believe that Claire was Frank's soulmate - or perhaps he did, and that's why he was finally leaving Claire before he died. When Frank realized that Claire wasn't ever going to love him like she loved Jamie, I think he took solace in being Bree's father (because she was also part of Claire) and in his affairs. At one point in the book, Frank throws it in Claire's face that she's been somewhat cold to him, so he took love where he found it.

Claire's solace was Bree and becoming a doctor. But it was obvious, even in the first book, that Claire wasn't comfortable in Frank's world of academia and all the politics and wifely behavior that she was expected to take part in to further his career. The story with Bree as a baby and that dinner that Frank expected her to put on when everything went wrong and she finally walked out of the house just cemented for me that Claire and Frank weren't really suited for "real life" together. Without having Bree and her profession, Claire would have gone mad.

And yes, I was really angry at Frank for throwing Joe Abernathy in her face. But it showed that Frank knew that he shared very little of who Claire truly was; he admitted that he didn't like her being a doctor, but that he admired her drive and her knowing her calling. Without Jamie, would Claire have had that strength, that knowing? That friendship and Frank's reaction to it made me realize how much Frank longed for a deeper relationship with Claire, even if neither was truly capable of achieving it - with or without the standing stones pulling her through time.

I'd wondered why Frank kept his interest in that time period and wrote all of those books... and why Claire hadn't read them. Then I realized that Frank was trying to figure out if Claire had told him the truth, and once he believed that she had, I think Frank was trying to find Jamie - to see who this man was who'd taken his wife's heart and soul so completely. And I can see why it would have been too painful for Claire to try to read Frank's books, knowing that he likely felt that way. Claire thought Jamie had died at Culloden; she tried to bury him and mourn him the best she could. Finding out if he survived would have been too difficult - like smashing hopes. So I think Frank tried to find out for her, and also to see if he'd lose Claire to Jamie once again. I think that's partly why he made her promise not to tell Bree about Jamie - he didn't want to lose Claire or make her choose between Bree and Jamie. Of course, Frank wanted Bree to fully love him - probably the only being who did - for just who he was, without anything else in the way. And as I think about how much Frank did love Bree, it makes me teary-eyed. Obviously, the man had it in him to love and be faithful to someone.

But back to Claire... we only see pieces of her life without Jamie - snippets of her memories, rather than the fuller glimpses we get of Jamie. And that made me think that we only saw part of her heartbreak... part of her life. She seemed to keep herself busy to prevent thinking or feeling; I think, in a way, she even distanced herself from Bree. Yes, they had a loving relationship, but I think Frank was closer to Bree than Claire was, especially with medical school, internships, and the like. And I think that's why Bree took it so hard that Frank wasn't her father - wasn't the man of her mother's heart. She knew it instinctively, but she couldn't fully accept it, because it felt like a betrayal of the only father she'd known. And that had to be a strain for Claire, knowing how close Bree and Frank were and not being able to share Jamie with anyone - not being able to talk of him.

I think that's why I love this book so much - they are finally reunited. And it seems like all will be right with the world, because Jamie and Claire have one another again.


message 45: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa | 345 comments Today, while rereading Voyager, got to the part where Claire finds out about Jamie's marriage to Laoghaire and then the big blow-up...oh man, this part brings up SO much pain on both parts - Claire and Jamie. When Claire is thinking and analyzing the past 20 years, she thought this: My marriage to Jamie had been for me like the turning of a great key, each small turn setting in play the intricate fall of tumblers within me. Bree had been able to turn that key as well, edging closer to the unlocking of the door of myself. But the final turn of the lock was frozen - until I had walked into the printshop in Edinburgh, and the mechanism had sprung free with a final, decisive click. I think it was the same for Jamie also. When they were apart for those long years, their souls were in a frozen state, living half lives. And as Jamie had said, when he returned to Lallybroch after Helwater, he "was there, but not home", it felt like he was living with strangers. Claire was able to relate to that, remembering life in Boston, "speaking the foreign language of middle-class domesticity. Strangers indeed."

Jamie hit on another thing that he shares with Claire when he was speaking of his marriage to Laoghaire, said to her, "Do ye know what it's like to be with someone that way? To try all ye can, and seem never to have the secret of them?" Claire replies, "Yes," thinking of Frank. "Yes, I do know."


Lori McD (LoriMcD) | 657 comments So true, Lisa. Thanks for connecting the dots!


message 47: by Dawn (new) - rated it 4 stars

Dawn (Delta108) | 62 comments I think DG is a genius. She takes about a 1/4 of this book preparing us as to what happened to Jamie these past 20 years. The anticipation is great when finally Claire goes through the stones to finally go & be with Jamie.

When Claire enters the print shop & Jamie sees her (eventually fainting); moving ahead to their first night together again, DG writes with equal emotion the fear, love, anticipation that we, the readers, are taken on their journey.


message 48: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa | 345 comments I agree, Dawn, DG is genius :)

Reading on, I found a couple more aspects of Jamie/Claire/Frank's love:

Claire saying to Jamie "Frank loved me, but there were pieces of me, that he didn't know what to do with. Things about me that he didn't understand, or maybe that frightened him. (But) Not you." Of course, we know that some things that Claire did, like nearly get herself killed, scared the wits out of Jamie. And he does the same to Claire. It's because they love each other more than life itself. They did live without each other for 20 years and don't want to do it again.

Another conversation between Claire and Jamie that nailed it for me: Jamie saying to Claire "Do you know what it is to love someone, and never - never! be able to give them peace, or joy, or happiness? To know that you cannot give them happiness, not through any fault of yours or theirs, but only because you were not born the right person for them?" And Claire, thought "Oh Frank, Forgive me."


message 49: by Wendy F, biblioholic (new) - rated it 5 stars

Wendy F (blessedwannab) | 3106 comments I love both of those quotes. They're both moments that haunt you after you read them.

And I think that they did scare each other with some of their actions, but they never tried to stifle it in each other because they knew to their core who the other was. Frank never got that.


message 50: by Lisa (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lisa | 345 comments Exactly, Wendy. Poor Frank. It's funny when Claire gets in these situations that she deals with herself and meanwhile Jamie is trying to rescue her and she's trying to get back to him, sometimes finding themselves in worse situations...ahhh, those two...I just adore them! And Jamie has his fits, wanting to throttle Claire for scaring him so badly, while Claire stands her ground, dishing it right back - it's great :D LOVE it!!!


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