Memoirs of a Geisha
discussion
Should Sayuri have chosen Nobu or the Chairman?
Rebecca wrote: "I just wondered what everybody else thinks about the Sayuri-Nobu-Chairman triangle?I, personally, was happy that she ended up with the Chairman at the end. Nobu didn't deserve what Sayuri did to ..."
Well first things first I love the name Sayuri and this book! I think she belong with the Chairman although I think she had respect for Nobu but never loved him as she did the chairman. So I think it was only right that she ended up with the man her soul and heart desired. I know this is off topic but I wish she would had seen her sister again. But again that what makes it a great novel bc in life there r always pain and sadness.
She was with who she loved, in the end. That's right and proper. But I felt bad for Nobu, he was a good man.
I agree with the others' opinion on this. Sayuri loved the chairman while her feelings for Nobu were more of pity, compassion and gratitude for what Nobu had suffered and what he had done for her. A relationship formed on love would survive and prosper but one based on pity or gratitude would lose its warmth over time. However, if I remember rightly even after Sayuri gets her man her happiness is still not complete because the Chairman is not hers completely.
I think the sorrow I felt for Nobu was compounded by his war injuries and physical appearance. You have to wonder if this also had any bearing on Sayuri not falling for him!
If the chairman had never spoken, I would've said Nobu.. In times, I thought Sayuri was even mistaken with the identity of the Chairman, perhaps he was Nobu all along.. The story didn't do him justice, but yeah this wasn't a win for all story..Nobu didn't deserve it. I liked Nobu :(
And I didn't really expect that the chairman would speak.. I'm glad she sacrificed and got what she wanted in the end!
I honestly expected the story to end with tragedy or heartbreak, like the course of so many true geisha's lives. As surprised as I was by the idealistic ending, I was pleased that Sayuri got the one thing a geisha isn't supposed to expect: true love. So Chairman it is! (And I will even admit that I was pleased with most of the movie adaptation. It's more of a snapshot of the book done in bright colors, but closer to the original story than I expected. Also, great cast!)
Having just finished the book, I can say that Nobu really didn't deserve her. Sure I felt bad for him but the way he treated Sayuri towards the end of the novel was horrid, and I knew she loved the Chairman. In a way I do feel bad for Nobu, but he never really treated Sayuri right in my eyes and the Chairman always had. She deserved to be happy with the man she loved!
I know that I am forcing my culture on another, but I don't see how it can be said that Sayuri ever really got the Chairman in a true sense. He already had a "real wife" and she was just his kept woman. The love that she held for him all those years was really just infatuation because he really paid her any noticeable attention at all. I really think Nobu was offering his love the only way he knew how. His finding her a place to stay during the war was probably the kindest gesture offered by anyone in the entire book! With his physical deformities I feel sure that he was timid with women and used to rejection. I think it all boils down to the heart is going to choose only whom the heart chooses; logic has place here!
Andrew wrote: "I know that I am forcing my culture on another, but I don't see how it can be said that Sayuri ever really got the Chairman in a true sense. He already had a "real wife" and she was just his kept w..."I completely agree with your analysis. It's true that Sayuri despite getting the Chairman could never become his and the Chairman too was never completely hers.
she never loved nobu, she always loved the chairman and i am glad she was with him in a way at the end
Ever since she had her first encounter with the Chairman, she already loved him (was it first love?). Nobu was a really good man, but Sayuri never loved him back although she has high respect to the guy. Sayuri ending up with Chairman is perfectly right.
If I was in Sayuri's place I think I would have chosen the Chairman, just because she truly loved him. However, I think the right thing to do would have been to marry Nobu because of his genuine kindness and love towards her. Poor Nobu :(
Andrew wrote: "I know that I am forcing my culture on another, but I don't see how it can be said that Sayuri ever really got the Chairman in a true sense. He already had a "real wife" and she was just his kept w..."I agree with you. We see more of Nobu than the chairman. Except for that brief meeting and the occasional gatherings, the chairman is just a shadow for us. So except to cheer that Sayuri got chairman because she loved him, I think there is no other basis to support this end. As you mentioned, it is probably the fear of rejection that makes Nobu hard. But his character shines through still. So as a reader, it is Nobu who is the hero for me...
I was glad that she ended up with the Chairman. It felt to me like they were destined to be together, since their destinies appeared to intertwine. I don't think Nobu was treated particularly well by Sayuri, but I think that her actions were mostly on account of the fact that she didn't love him. I am a fan of the Sayuri/Chairman combo, and think it was a great coupling for the ending.
Andrew's comment (message 11) is pretty close to my own feelings. Part of the problem is that we get much greater insight into Nobu's character than we do the chairman's - mainly because the chairman remains for the entire book an object of Saruyi's desire (or infatuation if we're being less charitable) and never really comes to life in the same way that Nobu does. Yeah, I feel sorry for Nobu. As for the original question, *should* Saruyi have chosen Nobu or the chairman? Despite what I've just said, I think she made the right choice for her. (What can I say? Love is contradictory and so is this post!)
Chairman , she deserved a happy ending with man she always loved , i love the book and the movie too and the music is amazing
As much as Nobu wanted her, he didn't love her. He wanted to be her "danna" which was more akin to owning her. The Chairman loved her. He saw the child he met in her, that innocent, joyful spirit but grown into the woman strengthened by her experience. The relationship with the Chairman would be untraditional in its foundation in love. It's the only happily ever after Saruyi could really have as a geisha. Though never his wife, always his love. I could live with that.
It's been awhile since I've read this, but I remember liking Nobu better as a character. I thought the Chairman was cliched, and too blah, and just predictable. So, as I didn't like the Chairman, I'll be the odd one here and say Nobu.
Marwa wrote: "If the chairman had never spoken, I would've said Nobu.. In times, I thought Sayuri was even mistaken with the identity of the Chairman, perhaps he was Nobu all along.. The story didn't do him jus..."
I too was surprised that the chairman spoke, and the he even knew her from when she was younger, even more than that I wonder when he fell for he in the first place. But when he did tell her I cried. I was incredibly happy that she ended up with him in the end. My only issue was hat they never could be married, and have children that could live without the sting of " bastard" following them wherever they went.
Sayuri deserved to end up with Chairman, there was an unbreakable bound when they first met, Sayuri as a child. I felt sorry for Nobu, but she struggled so hard to become THE GEISHA she did and life had to prize her with a handsome and good man.
The Chairman, she felt a connection to him from their first meeting. Nobu deserved someone who loved him as she loved the Chairman.
I think her heart chose from the start ... though I liked Nobu , he was a good man and he never failed to protect her or take care of hair but so was teh chairman??or not that book is so complicated and I can't believe that a guy wrote it , i LOVE IT AND i CRY EVERY TIME AT THE ENDING :)
I have to say I am happy for her choice he loved her all the way as she did :)
I thought it was interesting that she ended up with the Chairman (in a way, even though they cannot marry) instead of marrying Nobu. I expected it to be one more disappointment in her life. That being said, I'm glad she got to be a part of the Chairman's life because that seemed to make her happy in the end.
The Chairman. Had it not been the Chairman I don't think it would have been Nobu even then. She was never even attracted to Nobu.
As I was reading and Sayuri ended up with the the Chairman I was upset I felt this shouldn't have happened. Nobu was willing to pay her cost he found her a place to live and had given her, her first gift a Geisha. Out of respect she should have gone with Nobu. Despite his physical deformities he did love and care for her in a way the Chairman was unable because the Chairman was always surrounded by women. As a former escort you have to go where the money is and who is willing to pay your bills no matter what they look like.
If the Chairman is who she'd been dreaming of and who she thought she'd be happiest with, then she really had no choice except to do what she thought would make her happy. However... I did like Nobu a bit better. I feel like we know him better. And how can I not like the only guy who gets pissed off at the Baron for his piggish monologue about everyone imagining Sayuri naked? He was more my style.Bust, honestly, they were both way, way, way too old. I suppose that's just how things were then, but it's still not MY ideal. It made it hard for me to cheer on either man!
Yona I guess for me the age factor never came into it because for me personally most of my personal growth was done with older men. That and Lewis Carroll would be nowhere without his young sweetheart demanding a story and then at her request he wrote it down.
It was a hollywood ending.It was what she wanted, though he would never marry her and would never be hers really.
Well as far as characters go I have to say I love the character of Nobu so much more than the chairman.The chairman was a creepy, dishonorable, possessive dude. He claimed to love Sauyri but was going to let Nobu have her like he didn't even care. Also, does it disturb anyone that he met her when she was very, very young (I think she was nine or twelve. Anyways too young for old man to be making eyes at her.) and decided dang, she's pretty I want her to be my geisha one day. I mean she was a child! He was old man.
Also, even though Nobu didn't understand her very well... he loved her. He was the one who saved her from the war. He would have always treated her with honor and respect. I hated what she did to him in the end. I honestly think if she had just told him that she was in love with Chairman, he was honorable enough to let her go and be with the guy she loved.
I am glad Sayuri got the man she loved but I didn't think that the Chairman was worth loving.
Cassie wrote: "Also, does it disturb anyone that he met her when she was very, very young (I think she was nine or twelve. Anyways too young for old man to be making eyes at her.) and decided dang, she's pretty I want her to be my geisha one day. I mean she was a child! He was old man."Cassie, remember that this story is set in 1930's Japan. Marriages and relationships between old men and much younger women was common then. . . also, he probably didn't even plan for her to be "his" geisha when he met her. I really don't think Nobu would have let her go. Pay attention to how he responds when she leaves with the chairman... Nobu is the possessive one.
Rebecca wrote: "I just wondered what everybody else thinks about the Sayuri-Nobu-Chairman triangle?I, personally, was happy that she ended up with the Chairman at the end. Nobu didn't deserve what Sayuri did to h..."
Although the Chairman and Sayuri--also known as Chiyo-- would never be able to be "together" properly, I felt like it didn't matter. They were in love, and it's what made them happy. From the moment they met on the bridge above the Sunagawa to the moment the Chairman finally reveals his secret, I felt the ending was more than satisfactory. As for Nobu, I did feel sympathetic for him, but at the same time I felt a girl like Sayuri deserved the love she got from the Chairman than the "mere kindness" she received from Nobu. GO TRUE LOVE!!! (even if it isn't exactly "true" in some circumstances) ;]
To be honest, I found the Sayuri-Chairman romance a little twisted. The Chairman met her when she was a child and I find it a little strange that he falls in love with the very same girl. Sayuri should have ended up with a young man! But then again, that wouldn't have been a story. :) P.S Nobu is out of question.
I think that some have confused her feeling for both me. Her feeling for the Chairman were love, passion and loyalty. Her feeling for Nobu were respect and appreciation. I did not even consider the idea of her taking sides, during the entire time while reading this book, I always knew her heart was for the Chaiman and no one else not even that young man she had an affair with at some point in the book.
Chairman for the happy ending since Sayuri carrying a love for him from the childhood and touched by his kindness.
I felt there was no substantial feeling between Sayuri and the Chairman, even after he made his confession. While Sayuri constantly thought about him, I didn't really feel like she loved him so much as she felt a kind of bond based on what he did for her back then.Having said that, the connection between Nobu and Sayuri wasn't really romantic either. I think she would have been a lot happier with Nobu despite the fact that he supposedly didn't know her (I don't agree with Sayuri's mindset on this point - I think he knew her a lot better than the Chairman did).
This question is misleading. It implies that Sayuri had the ability to directly choose her danna when in fact the choice was never hers. Although Sayuri's actions at the theatre influenced Nobu and resulted in his decision to not become her danna, this in no way meant that she had made an active choice to be with the Chairman. When invited to the Ichiriki after her indiscretion with the Minister, Sayuri was still expecting to meet with Nobu and was quite surprised by the arrival of the Chairman. It was the Chairman and Nobu who did the choosing. Geisha lived in a very patriarchal society and while it may be romantic to think that Sayuri was able to choose her danna, it would be against the glimpses of Japanese culture illustrated in the novel.
Auntie Simone wrote: "This question is misleading. It implies that Sayuri had the ability to directly choose her danna when in fact the choice was never hers. Although Sayuri's actions at the theatre influenced Nobu a..."that is a very good point, she didn't really have any choices in her entire life.
Chloe wrote: "I felt there was no substantial feeling between Sayuri and the Chairman, even after he made his confession. While Sayuri constantly thought about him, I didn't really feel like she loved him so muc..."Saurabh wrote: "A relationship formed on love would survive and prosper but one based on pity or gratitude would lose its warmth over time."
Jumping in a month late to disagree with a few things here.
It seems to me, that Sayuri's relationship with the Chairman is based on nothing BUT pity and gratitude. He felt sorry for the crying child, she spent her life wanting to pay him back by becoming his property. That's not a love relationship, that's me having a bad day, being cheered up by an autograph from my favorite celebrity and deciding this makes us soul mates.
Andrew wrote: "The love that she held for him all those years was really just infatuation because he really paid her any noticeable attention at all. I really think Nobu was offering his love the only way he knew how. His finding her a place to stay during the war was probably the kindest gesture offered by anyone in the entire book! With his physical deformities I feel sure that he was timid with women and used to rejection."
Very much agree, here. For all his bluntness, I don't think "I love you" is something Nobu could just come out and say. That's too much vulnerability from someone who, even by the Chairman's own admission has "had very little kindness." But the feeling was still very obviously there. When he gives her the piece of concrete, that, to me, was the most romantic thing anyone had ever given her. It was practically an engagement ring.
Nanci wrote: "As much as Nobu wanted her, he didn't love her. He wanted to be her "danna" which was more akin to owning her. The Chairman loved her."
The Chairman, too, only wanted to be her danna. And there's nothing to say that Nobu, who if I recall was single, wouldn't have married her eventually. For the Chairman, she could only ever be his open, but dirty little secret. Something to be known, possibly talked about in whispers, but ultimately put aside for the good of his family name. Remember, too, that Nobu wasn't interested in bidding for the right to take her virginity.
Erin wrote: "I really don't think Nobu would have let her go. Pay attention to how he responds when she leaves with the chairman... Nobu is the possessive one."
Which part do you mean about leaving with the Chairman? Did you mean the part where they're at the teahouse and he gets upset at the idea of her being the sort of woman who would sleep with the minister? Or the part where the Chairman said Nobu had given her up because he couldn't forgive her? The former, yeah, is a little out of line considering that Sayuri isn't in a position to outright refuse if the minister becomes her danna. The latter, perfectly understandable. I couldn't forgive something like that, either, especially not from someone who had spent our entire first meeting doing everything to convince me he was interested and had done nothing to dispel that notion for fifteen years. Nobu appreciated people who were willing to tell the truth of things, a bit like Dr House. If Sayuri had ever simply said to him that she was uninterested in more than friendship, rather than tiptoeing around things, I believe he would've been hurt, yes, most definitely jealous, but probably would have dropped the idea of pursuing anything with her. Who knows, she may have even been able to keep his friendship had she gone about it that way.
Chloe wrote: "I think she would have been a lot happier with Nobu despite the fact that he supposedly didn't know her (I don't agree with Sayuri's mindset on this point - I think he knew her a lot better than the Chairman did)."
He DID know her a lot better than the Chairman did. With Nobu, she always addressed him by name and, at times, they had conversations where I could easily picture them as a married couple, just getting back from some social obligation, Nobu mercilessly tearing someone to shreds after Sayuri made him grit his teeth and be polite all evening, while she tries not to encourage him by laughing, but still joining in the snark.
The Chairman, she placed too far on a pedestal above her, not even using his name before he became danna-sama. The description of their life together made me picture her sitting around in the house alone all day, bored, just waiting for the moment he showed up so that she could kneel at his feet and gaze at him adoringly while he poured out his troubles, never giving so much as a hint that anything might have happened to upset her that day, and generally playing the perfect little doll for him.
Not to mention, the Chairman indirectly created the mask that Chiyo disappeared behind. Nobu made one thoughtless remark about her true home, entirely in ignorance because she'd never told him where she really came from, whereas the Chairman saw a little girl crying and decided that the best way to help her was to buy her a snow cone and pay for her to become a pampered slave.
She says Nobu wouldn't have been patient and kind to her that day on the bridge, but she's no way of knowing that. We never see him interact with children. It's all her guilty conscience trying desperately to rationalize why she should betray her friend for the minuscule chance at half the attention of a man who may or may not know she exists but whom she's obsessed with.
Kirby wrote: "that is a very good point, she didn't really have any choices in her entire life."
Not entirely true. Yes, she lived in a gilded cage, but she had Mameha who was willing to help manipulate things to suit Sayuri, and later, did so herself. She almost wound up with Nobu twice, and each time managed to arrange or have things arranged so that he was pushed aside. Meanwhile, looking at him all innocent and pretending she totally had no choice and no hand in the matter.
Finally, at the end of this TL;DR, my own thoughts on the matter. If she hadn't been unhealthily obsessed with the Chairman, I think Sayuri would have realized she was actually in love with Nobu, but she had used the thought of being with the Chairman as a crutch for so long that her life literally had no meaning without him. Had they simply met for the first time at the sumo match, I think Nobu would have stood a much better chance.
On the other hand, I think he could really do much better as far choices in friends and lovers. He didn't see what happened with the minister and might have gone on blissfully ignorant, but his 'friend' needed to tell him, and then rationalize his own guilt into somehow making it a glaring flaw in Nobu's character for not immediately forgiving a betrayal by one of the few people he trusts. And Sayuri didn't even consider that her little stunt might have actually cost Nobu three people he cared about; herself, the Chairman, and possibly even Mameha for pushing Sayuri on him in the first place.
5thcellar wrote: "Chloe wrote: "I felt there was no substantial feeling between Sayuri and the Chairman, even after he made his confession. While Sayuri constantly thought about him, I didn't really feel like she lo..."This is a really great insight into the book and the characters. It was very interesting to read :)
Thank you. :) After posting, I was certain I was going to be scolded for necroposting and rambling too much.
I think she knew Nobu a lot better than the Chairman, and a lot of her 'love' for him was probably her own imagination - she should have gone for Nobu.
Jenny wrote: "Chloe wrote: "I felt there was no substantial feeling between Sayuri and the Chairman, even after he made his confession. While Sayuri constantly thought about him, I didn't really feel like she lo..."Oh my gosh. I am NOT alone!! This is exactly how I felt and was beginning to think I was crazy when I heard how people absolutely adored the relationship between Sayuri/Chairman. I could understand why people cheered for her at the end, but I was extremely upset that she betrayed a man that saved her.
Let's not forget that Nobu had a falling-out with Sayuri for years and became her savior out of nowhere during the war when no one else seemed to help her. I thought that was true love. Despite being hurt by her at that point, he still came back for her. I could understand that she didn't feel the same way which was okay. But I felt it was unncessary for her to make some elaborate plan for him to walk in on her with a man he hated. This made no sense to me when she could have just respectfully told him. Maybe she just couldn't tell him, but really, there was no other way?? I felt that she played the victim of her situation way too often even after she gained some control of her life. :/
I seriously didn't understand her infatuation for the Chairman either. It was like Gatsy idealizing Daisy from "The Great Gatsby" or something. Why did she love chairman? Because he was kind to her? Just finished the book yesterday and it scares me how overhyped this book is. Well-written and inaccuracies aside, the romance is this book bothers me. That, and character development. Thank you Jenny for fleshing out all my feelings. =D I feel like I can move on and read a better book now.
Okay, does nobody else the problem with this whole situation?... THE CHAIRMAN WAS MARRIED. And they were both old. Ew. Weird.I'm sorry, but I did not like this book.
Melissa wrote: "Okay, does nobody else the problem with this whole situation?... THE CHAIRMAN WAS MARRIED. And they were both old. Ew. Weird.I'm sorry, but I did not like this book."
You are like me! I thought about that too. They had a child together too but of course everyone is going to tell you "that is/was the Japanese culture" so be prepared.
I have taken Japanese studies( its also my 3rd language) and I think adultery, no matter what race,culture,or tradition it comes from STINKS.
Aside from that little let down that ignored that he was not single, I enjoyed the book.
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I, personally, was happy that she ended up with the Chairman at the end. Nobu didn't deserve what Sayuri did to him, it was incredibly cruel, but I don't think it would've been right for her to be with a man she didn't love and who didn't trully know her.
What does everybody else think? :)