wait..did everyone just hae a group hug? for real? is this group in agreement? HALLEJUAH! i mean um for u non Christians...FINALLY!!

Nathan wrote: "XOXOXO"

haha :X

Rainrocks^o^(aka Breanna) wrote: "Oh and thank you very much rgb:)"

Not a problem. Fair's fair, facts are facts, and if it comes right down to it, while I am absolutely an ex-Christian apostatic antichrist who tends to foam gently at the mouth when people suggest that the book of Genesis is literal truth, that humanity is "fallen" from a state of grace requiring salvation instead of evolved from a primitive brutal state we are continuing to uplift ourselves from both physically and morally, that Moses (a homocidal genocidal slaver rapist) was a "good man" worthy of walking with the mythical Jesus as the NT portrays him doing, etc., -- I too think God is somewhat more plausible than not, although my conception of God is a panendeist one and not terribly anthropomorphic.

In particular, I'm an antitheist. Scriptural theisms of all sorts are the bane of this sorry planet, because they are used as a substitute for reason by some 4/5 of the people alive on earth. It is enormously dangerous to use a mythology to make what should be rational ethical and political decisions that affect the lives and fortunes of billions of people, not to mention the planetary ecology. It is terrifying to have people use thousands, no, tens of thousands of mythologies in competition, with hidden agendas and exploitative, power hungry leadership galore, to make those decisions.

Theism isn't harmless. The irrational isn't harmless. There is no substitute for using the best possible information we have to make sensible decisions, and no excuse for using instead the "certain knowledge" that the Apocalypse is coming so we don't need to bother conserving natural resources.

rgb

rgb

XOXOXO

Now everyone hug!

Oh and thank you very much rgb:)

Nathan wrote: "As a (cough cough) old computer guy, bear in mind that holding a particularly heated discussion on lists like this is known colloquially as "flaming".

Thanks for the info. I did not know that.
..."

Thank you. I looked that term "flamer" too and got the same results. my dad actually accepts gays:)and we are not a church going family. im not what you would call a "brainwashed christian girl" but hey, i believe in god. sorry if i offended you too.

Dearest Kanga,

Logic isn't the point. The point is empirical.

Look around you. I cannot see what you are looking at, but let's imagine (hmmmm) that it is a computer screen on which these strange letters are printed in patterns of light and darkness. Do you see any invisible fairies, sitting on your keyboard and looking up at you?

Well of course not -- they are invisible. But try for a moment to imagine that they are there. You've seen pictures, I'm sure, of fairies. You can visualize them like that, only invisible.

We thus come to agree that there is nothing contradictory about the assertion that there are invisible fairies sitting on your keyboard. You have managed to visualize their, well, non-visualizability (even though you are pretending that they are really there).

Now, not do you, but should you believe that there are really invisible fairies sitting on your keyboard making invisible faces at you and picking their little fairy noses?

I might tell you that they are there. I could claim that I have seen them, you just have to look for them a certain way. I might tell you that if you have faith that the fairies are there, if you really, really believe in them in spite of their not being visible or discernible in any way, that after you die the fairies will write your name across the sky in invisible sky-writing, where it will remain forever. Would you be inclined to believe me? Or would you suspect that I might be lying, crazy, on drugs, or simply mistaken?

I'm guessing you would be pretty skeptical. After all, you've never seen a fairy at all, visible or invisible. Things that are on your keyboard -- a few specks of dust, a smudge from where you spilled a drop of coke and let it dry -- are visible. You can see them there, and understand where and how they got there. If there were really fairies on the keyboard that you should believe in, you might well insist on having some sort of evidence -- other than my authority and word, however sincere it is, other than an entire Book of Fairies written in ancient times by wise ones who swore that they hung out with the fairies and they were all visible in those days as its authority is really no better -- that the fairies are really there.

Faith is actually irrelevant to whether or not they are really there. You could have all the faith you want and be mistaken. You could have no faith at all and be nearly certain that there are no invisible fairies on your keyboard and still be mistaken. The fairies are really either there or not there, quite independent of your faith, but you want to believe the right thing.

After all, how silly would it be to believe in fairies that aren't really there? Such a belief could really impact your life. Dare you to continue typing, if your fingers could slip and accidentally take the life of an innocent (but invisible) fairy? What vengeance might the rest of the fairies take? If they are there it could be important to know that they are there, and if they aren't there it seems as thought it might be important to know that, too.

So think. How can you determine whether or not there are invisible fairies on your keyboard independent of all authority?

Think also on this: Should your default belief be "Wow, there might be invisible fairies on my keyboard, so that I should stop typing right away lest I squish one." or "There might be invisible fairies on my keyboard but I can't see them, and I don't see little fairy footprints in that coke I spilled, and besides, if they were there wouldn't they sometimes press a key or do something so I could tell they were there even if I can't actually see them, so I'll just keep on typing."

Should you mostly believe any such proposition, no matter how unreasonable it is and how unsupported it is by actual experience, or should you demand some sort of proof, some empirical reason to believe in invisible fairies, especially ones that have increasingly specific properties (they're all wearing blue dresses and are tap-dancing on your keyboard around your whirling fingers and they are exactly two centimeters tall)?

If the former, look out for the invisible unicorn behind you -- if you ever dare to disbelieve in it with perfect faith it will ram you in the backside with its horn, but it will do this ten years ago so you won't remember this discussion and the pain will come out of nowhere. And watch out for the brownies; they like to poison the milk in the refrigerator unless you leave them pieces of gum stuck beneath the kitchen table.

I'm guessing that you would consider this sort of faith based belief in unbelievable things people tell you as delusional. Science is belief based on reason, on reasons. It is the set of things you believe in because there are good reasons to believe them without recourse to "authority" -- they are true and you can prove that truth to yourself no matter what you are told to support them or deny them. Gravity works whether or not you believe in it.

Faith is the belief not in the "illogical", but in the invisible. Belief in things without evidence, belief in things without reason. That's pretty silly, don't you think?

How sad, to avoid typing for the rest of your life out of a silly belief that there are invisible fairies on your keyboard, or any other fantastic proposition! How much wiser to insist on having proof of some sort or another for that which you believe, to believe in things for the opposite reasons to those that underlie "faith".

rgb

"Faith is not Logical
But, It isnt't Illogical Either
Faith is Theological

It does NOT ignore reallity
.....it just adds God to the Equation"


- Mark Batterson

Nathan wrote: "As a (cough cough) old computer guy, bear in mind that holding a particularly heated discussion on lists like this is known colloquially as "flaming".

Thanks for the info. I did not know that.
..."

NP. It does bring to mind that patience and a certain amount of charity are valuable things to bring to a debate even when the subject is one that arouses your passions, even when in the best of conscience you are presenting the truth as you see it. The point of a moderator might be to help keep the discussion moderate, y'think...?

This isn't, as noted, any kind of disagreement with your position, as you well know. I haven't participated in this discussion much because a) the participants are all kids; b) they are completely delusional, because of the way they have been raised and conditioned by their parents and their churches. Overcoming this conditioning is not easy and will take them time and much painful experience and of course many of them will never make it and will continue to be easy prey to those who exploit their beliefs to control them.

But they are the ones that have to eventually learn enough of the truth about the universe to come to know that there is no "magic" of the sort that they are casually trying to invoke with their prayers. They are just as pathetic (as in figures deserving sympathy, not as "losers") as kids that age dabbling in "witchcraft" and pretending to cast spells or the like. Obviously if prayer could bring about world peace, or heal amputees, or bring about the mountain-moving miracles Jesus promises to perform in e.g. Matthew, the world would be a completely different place. The truth is, however, that praying for a broken arm doesn't make a single day's worth of difference in how long it takes to heal. Praying to God or Jesus daily before you break it doesn't keep you from breaking it and experiencing the pain and suffering in the first place. Praying for your pet hamster not to die does not keep lead to a very old hamster. Praying for rain does not make it rain. Praying to avert a hurricane from wiping out a city and causing billions of dollars of damage and taking many lives does not prevent this from happening. In fact, prayer has absolutely no visible effect on the real world. If it did, using the methodology of science we could easily discern that effect. Using the methodology of history, we could easily discern that effect. Using our reason and examining the evidence, we could easily discern that effect.

Not even if an entire church full of people get together and pray to heal a small child's terminal cancer does that child's cancer miraculously get cured (any more often that it "miraculously" is cured by means of modern science and a certain amount of luck). Studies have demonstrated this. This basically means your choice of -- there aren't two whole people in the church who actually have any faith in the charade; or: Jesus lied when he promised to do whatever his followers asked him to do in order to glorify the Father.

All of the young people on this list are invited to try the experiment. Get together and pray for Jesus to appear to you, in person. Jesus is omnipotent and omnipresent. Basically, that means that he can do this without any effort on his part. Jesus has promised to do whatever you ask, including this (read the Bible, kids, if you don't believe this). This doesn't "remove your free will" or anything silly like that -- Jesus appeared to Paul and some 500 others, he appeared to his apostles, to Mary, and we must presume to some very surprised Roman guards. It didn't remove their free will and it won't remove yours.

If you do this, I can pretty much guarantee that he won't appear. Or at least, he never does when I invite him to materialize for a chat.

Think of how good a chat would be. He loves me (right? says so right there in the Bible) and doesn't want to cast me into hell. Well, he can easily prevent it! All he has to do is tell me to believe -- in person, just like his own twin brother Thomas had to be told -- and I'll believe.

Or, ask for anything else that would unambiguously prove Jesus's existence. Note the word "unambiguous". Don't pray for it to rain tomorrow, because rain happens by chance anyway. Pray to move mount Kilimanjaro from the middle of the Serengeti to Arizona. Then everybody will believe; it'll be great! Pray to regrow an amputee's lost limb. Pray to bring a dead person back to life at a funeral, so that they animate and sit up in their coffin after being embalmed and everything, good as new. We know that Jesus can easily do this -- he is reported to have done it in the Gospels, and even his Apostles did this as reported in Acts, in his name. If these reports are not simply myths, legends -- stories that are not true -- than He can do this today as easily as he could then. If you are a true Apostle of Jesus with the faith of a mustard seed, then you can do it now by calling on him. He promised.

I don't expect any of you to actually try this, of course. It is "safe" to pray over a broken arm that will heal anyway -- unless you turn out to have leukemia and your broken bone never heals and then you die, which happens in some small fraction of cases, even to believers who pray. It is "safe" to pray for rain. It is "safe" to pray for rain, and when rain fails to fall to conclude "Gee, I guess it wasn't Jesus's will that it rain even thought I prayed for it". If Jesus isn't real, if your delusion that he is is, well, delusional, then you have to face some very important and difficult facts, some adult facts about the real world. You won't want to face those facts any more than you wanted to learn that Santa Claus wasn't real.

However much you won't want to acknowledge it, however much you want to deny it, nothing will change the truth. Your parents may well have lived their entire lives in a delusional state, but that won't change the truth. If you examine the Bible objectively and subject it to critical thinking (a process your elders will quite literally forbid you to undertake, as they full well know that it cannot stand any such examination) you will find that it is internally contradictory, that it contradicts known scientific and historical facts, that it contains obvious absurdities and fantasies that make no sense whatsoever. You will find that it presents formal, supposedly God-given laws for things that we find morally reprehensible, such as slavery, marriage by rape, the summary execution of those that disagree with us. You will find many places where God supposedly ordered horrendous acts of genocide to be committed (read Numbers 31, for example) that included killing women, children, babes in arms, fetuses in the womb -- except for the young virginal girls who were to be taken and distributed to the troops to be raped and be made into slaves.

Now use your sense of empathy, your common sense, your compassion. Would you want to have been one of those young girls, to watch you pregnant mother hacked to pieces, your brother hacked out of her living womb with a sword and spitted, your other brothers on the ground twitching out their last moments of life only to be seized by a big, smelly soldier and thrown to the ground to be raped, and then dragged off and forced to spend the rest of your life waiting on him and his wives and being raped again and again and again as the whim suited him, being beaten according to rules laid down by God if you complain or disobey?

I doubt it. This is just wrong and was always wrong. But it is "right" in the Bible, and Moses was selected by Jesus to be present at his ascension.

Myth, legend, and lies. Study it and you will realize that this is true. But it will take time and courage. Good luck.

rgb

As a (cough cough) old computer guy, bear in mind that holding a particularly heated discussion on lists like this is known colloquially as "flaming".

Thanks for the info. I did not know that.

And...my apologies to Rainrock's dad if he is not, in fact, someone who hates gay people.

Nathan wrote: "Do you think Rainrock's dad is a gay hating Christian? He calls what he deems as trolls on the internet "flamers." Seems like that's what he is to me."

As a (cough cough) old computer guy, bear in mind that holding a particularly heated discussion on lists like this is known colloquially as "flaming".

Why look, it even has its own wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28...

So in all honestly, that is almost certainly what he meant, and in the interest of civility and honesty, you might owe him an apology. Although in honesty, reviewing the conversation above you weren't flaming anybody, until you started flaming them about being called a flamer.

However, your comment still stands -- if one truly believes God to be omnipotent then It can do anything, effortlessly. However, it is a simple point of fact that It doesn't do anything visibly or detectably, that numerous studies of prayer have been conducted and have found that remote prayer by strangers in particular has no discernible effect in double blind experiments of people with various diseases, and that such effects as "believers" sometimes ascribe to it can easily be explained by the placebo effect and disappear in any sort of controlled study.

So we could all pray like hell over a broken arm -- or a broken family -- and not have the slightest effect on either one.

There are some wonderful experiments that any Christian can perform outlined here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/

to prove to yourself that this is true, but of course nobody on this list (in particular following this discussion) will do any of them because they prefer the comfort of their ignorance to the truth.

rgb

Ha ha. Irony is very interesting sometimes.

I was at church today (obviously not by choice) and the preacher was talking to a group of junior high kids and said "There are people out there that don't believe in what you believe, that go around spreading drama and lies and we're here to help get you through that. This is a place you can go to to get away from all of those people." asdfjkl; My jaw dropped.

I know, I read that. Of all the insults he could choose, he chooses one that people use for homosexuals. Probably not a coincidence -_-

Do you think Rainrock's dad is a gay hating Christian? He calls what he deems as trolls on the internet "flamers." Seems like that's what he is to me.

Yes. They sound so silly and young. Honestly, just hold your own. It's the INTERNET, not a playground.

Hey J...

I love when people threaten to tell mods about me. Don't you?

Hi, Nathan!

but that was very rude and immature of you considering im a teenager.

What was rude of me considering you are a teenager? The fact that I said it wasn't Christian of you? You aren't making any sense at all.

i told my father about you, and he said that people constantly do this on the internet.

Do what?

he calls them flamers.

That doesn't surprise me. Many Christians are bigoted jerks. I don't doubt that his "flamer" reference is supposed to be an indirect derogatory dig at homosexuals. You can tell your dad I think he is an immature homophobic idiot.

i will contact the moderator if you continue to act rudely.

I would enjoy that if you would. Take a look at the moderator list.

Im sorry, i don't believe that i acted very christian. but that was very rude and immature of you considering im a teenager. i told my father about you, and he said that people constantly do this on the internet. he calls them flamers. so please, i will contact the moderator if you continue to act rudely.

God may not be able to anything about it physically but he sure can give you strength!!!!

Why can't god do anything about it physically? I thought he was omnipotent? What happened to that?

I'm 30. Respect your elders.

so if you want to say those things...go to an atheist group!!

Ah, yes. That is quite a welcoming Christian attitude. "If you don't agree with me, then get out!!!"

Nathan wrote: "God isn't present. He doesn't exist.

SO, do not speak what you do not know or think He will do about it!

Rob can speak about whatever the hell he wants. You don't have any say in that, so stop ..."

God DOES exist!!!! I am a teenager and god is a large part of my life!!!!! so if you want to say those things...go to an atheist group!!! Im sure god loves you, he loves all of his children but this IS a CHRISTIAN group!!!!

I want to help my friend..she is not christian and she doesn't go to church. but God loves her. I just noticed that she who is usually VERY smart, is letting her grades slip. And her family is having issues too...in money mainly. I don't know what to do...i will pray for her but would some of you like to help me?

Rodney wrote: "Rob wrote: "i❤TheBeatles wrote: "my arm broke... someone pray for me please??"

Sorry you broke your arm but, really, what do you expect God to do about it?"

ROB if your were a Christian, you ..."

Yes. God may not be able to anything about it physically but he sure can give you strength!!!!

I emailed you so now we can talk without anyone causing problems.

You are an obtuse individual. Rob wasn't trying to cause problems, he was trying to help. Rob was trying to offer real help/advice instead of the BS help/advice you will offer like, "Pray about it" and/or "God will take care of it."

Angel wrote: "Rodney i need your help... i need to talk to someone and i can tell that you are strong in your walk with God... please please let me know when you are free to talk... " Hi Angel, how are you doing? I emailed you so now we can talk without anyone causing problems. I look forward in talking to ya.

Reminds me of my childhood - dad hits mom, mom hits me.

I prayed for god to help too..it doesn't help. One day, though, my mom punched me and I didn't fall down. That's when I learned prayer is bull****. I solved my fear of abuse through exercise and courage. You'l learn a lot if you try to solve your problems on your own, instead of trying to pray them away.

Look at you. in a terrible, but simple, situation...and yet god isn't helping. Maybe the problem is you, or maybe the problem is that praying to god is useless. Fix your problems and stop wishing at them.

Rodney i need your help... i need to talk to someone and i can tell that you are strong in your walk with God... please please let me know when you are free to talk...

the past couple of weeks i have been being torn appart by so many things, my parents keep yelling at me when i dont do anything wrong all i had to do was whisper and my dad yelled at me for about 10 min. it scares me to the point to where anytime i walk by him i start crying and my mom just likes to take all her problems out on me, i need God now more than ever, i need his help to get me through this, please pray for both them and me, i dont know what else to do... i keep praying but it still continues

Ha ha. I knew my moderator status would disturb her. Just another Christian who only wants to talk with people who agree with her.

oh well, bye bye! ;)

/sigh

really?

No.

sarcasm?

Yeah, that's what I meant. Oh well, we'll be so much the poorer for not having you.

But I'm sure someone will replace your spot in my heart.

no, not that, the fact that NATHAN is a mod!!

Didn't see that coming, huh?!

thats it! goodbye FOREVER! I AM LEAVING THIS GROUP!!!

WHAT?!?!?????

Oh, and really I have no need to prove the bible wrong - wrong about what? It's a fairly long book and it certainly has some truth in it. It also has something that isn't truth in it, just like every other book.

I came into a Christian group to learn more. Yes, I'm sure that seems like arguing to you; but I imagine that's because you don't value debate as much as I do. In fact, since you're Christian, I imagine you value similarity and "sameness."

So while I understand why you would interpret me as a threat; I'm not. I'm just a doubting Thomas, and you can wish me away, but you're only denying yourself the experience of getting to know someone who isn't like you.

And sometimes, those are the coolest people!

Okay, where the heck are the moderators?

I'm right here. What do you need?

Who said you should be kicked put?

why would i get kicked put? YOU ARE THE ONES WHO TRY AND PROVE THE BIBLE WRONG! YOU CAME INTO A CHRISTIAN GROUP, JUST. SO. YOU. COULD. ARGUE!!!!!!!!!!

i❤TheBeatles wrote: "Okay, where the heck are the moderators? they should kick you out of the group!"

Who should be kicked out, and why?

Okay, where the heck are the moderators? they should kick you out of the group!

God isn't present. He doesn't exist.

SO, do not speak what you do not know or think He will do about it!

Rob can speak about whatever the hell he wants. You don't have any say in that, so stop trying to be a fascist.

It might not be what we want, but it will be what He wants and His time...

Then you don't need to pray about it since whatever god wants will supposedly happen anyway.

If no, then talk to a pastor, a believer in God, or pick up the Bible and read...

Pastors are undereducated and overzealous. Believers in god are not logical or rational in their belief. The Bible is simply a bunch of mythological stories.