Dennis

Take a look at Julian May's books.

Thanks Margaret....I will try and get hold of it and let you know how it pans out. In my own 'The Understanding' I have a dimension-jump followed by the husbanding of the human race on Earth for thousands of years, but because there is no such thing as truely 'original' concepts of themes or cosmology in modern writing, I would like to trace back where similar themes came from in modern sci-fi.

Dennis, I think the book of Clarke's you want to look for on that theme is Childhood's End.

Anyone know of any sci-fi novels that have dimension-jumpers or aliens, husbanding the development of primitive man on earth, or even modern man?
I have not read any of Arthur C Clarke's novels, although I have seen some of his tv, based on his novels, but I seem to recall the alien presence, behind the scenes in mankind's development, somewhere in his writings. Such a senario, would logically, but not necessarily be of a post apocalpytic phase in the home planet/dimension.

Plague Year is on my TBR... I might have to move it up the list. :)

The best apocalyptic novel I've read in a long time is Plague Year by Jeff Carlson, I don't think I saw that mentioned yet in this thread. One of my pet hates is nanotechnology, at least when used as magic pixie dust (as in 95% of books it appears in), but its done right in Plague Year. I have to say though, the characters are absolutely put through the grinder, and I felt like I went through it with them, to the extent that I feel a bit uncertain about using words like "enjoyed" with respect to this book. But I absolutely couldn't put it down until it was over, I'd highly recommend it to anyone into near-future apocalyptic stories.

I agree with you Carolyn, and Chris to some extent.
While we would each 'write it as we see it', authors know that no matter how seemingly final for the future of mankind an apocalpytic senario might be made to seem, even in fiction, the novel needs to hold out hope of a rebirth for mankind. There needs to be that hope, that mankind having been so wrong this time around, will still get a second chance, be it,through the emergence of a utopian society from the ashes of the present,or by means of a post-apocalpytic, time warp which would take mankind back to a 'datum point' in history, where mankind can start making the right decisions to ensure that utopian future.
A third senario would involve the dimension jump to a parallel dimension, where mankind of the dead or dying planet, could husband the development of mankind from his very earliest beginings on a new and pristine planet.
If good sci-fi or fantasy does not have such an element to encourage the reader to have hope, then we might just as well write it for ourselves, self-publish on a small scale, and send copies to friends and family only. Too much sci-fi leaves readers hanging at the end. I like a story to resolve, even if the resolution is merely a thread of hope left open at the end.

The Stand is amazing - every time I read it. Swan Song is also pretty great and uncomplicated. All of McCammon's early stuff is great.

I´ve just finished "Dies the Fire" ( Sterling ) and I liked ( between 3 and 4 stars ), I hoped the secuels are good too.

Carolyn, I didn't necessarily mean you when I said "argument". It had descended to that level before either of us posted anything.

I like your definition of the post apocalpyse and watching the society rebuild. In Shannara, at least, that has occured, and some of the later books show that story. The early ones I wouldn't put in this category because they didn't touch on that subject very much, and it was very 'epic fantasy'. I can't say for sure about the Elliott series, but I thought the points made in its favor were fine.

The only real disagreement I might have with what you said is the fact that it should take place here, on this planet. Other places could have one too. In fact, in some of those stories, it actually turned out to be this world after all that was destroyed, but I won't give examples as they are spoilers...

Potato / Potato

You say argument, I say discussion.
Is it worth having a discussion over? I think so, one of the main reasons I come to GR is for discussions.

In regards to your question, I don't believe a "technology-free, medieval type" society is necessarily a "fantasy" society - there are plenty of low-tech/bio-tech/no-tech societies in science fiction (and actually in real life in third world countries.)

And no, we're not talking about certain kinds of apocalypses, I think we're just talking about them taking place here, on this planet, in this world, sometime in the future. There's no hard-and-fast rule about any other details of this genre, but overall it tends to be about people coping with the aftermath, or in the long term, about a re/discovery of knowledge or a coming-of-age story, or about a conflict between the character and the society that has risen from the ashes.

Most post-Apocalypse novels seem to assume some sort of dystopia, though many aren't clear on what happened. Since their focus is on the "post-" rather than the Apocalypse, maybe they weren't concerned with what went wrong, only that it did.

Even Terry Brook's Shannara books posited a previous, high-tech society.

Wouldn't a technology-free, medieval type "fantasy" society be an example of what might emerge from an apocalypse?

Or are we only talking about certain kinds of apocalypses?

Just like with any label we attach to a book, some will fit it better than others, and some people will disagree. Is it really worth arguing about?

I have to agree with Arthur that the Crown of Stars series is not post-apocalyptic fiction, it's just fantasy. Post-apocalyptic fiction generally falls within the genre of science fiction. Mostly (there may be an exception or two), it's about the end of life-as-we-know-it on this planet, in one of our societies.

Many different science fiction and fantasy books have some kind of 'cataclysm' in their pasts - the Valdemar series by Mercedes Lackey is a perfect example. The author went back and wrote several books all about the 'Mage Wars' and the Cataclysm, but having some kind of apocalyptic event in the past of that land, doesn't make the books Post-Apocalyptic in the sense of the genre we're talking about in this thread. In a strictly literal sense of the words, yes, there was an apocalypse in it's history and so everything in those books is after that - but from the genre use of the term, Post-Apocalypse books are an exploration of how people might cope in the aftermath, and what kind of society might rise from the ashes. This is where the genre also merges a bit with dystopian fiction (although it is it's own genre) because many of those societies are dystopian.

Historically, the post-apocalyptic genre had a huge boom in popularity and number of books being written about the topic after Hiroshima/the atomic bomb was discovered.

I am not going to argue anymore.
It is a specific thread for Apocalypse novels. I am pretty sure the Crown of Stars series does not fall into this category, it is pure fantasy (an a very bad one IMHO but people have different tastes).
It is my opinion and a word of warning for people who come here for an advice.
You may want to believe whatever you fancy.

Arthur wrote: "True, but that's it. In one sentence you have summed up the idea. The rest is epic fantasy."

Can't ALL apocalyptic-type stories be summed up similarly? They all feature the end of the world or life in some way, but that's never the whole story.

Can't they all be categorized within a secondary genre, or more? I think all of my apocalyptic-type books are cross-shelved because they all can fit within other genres and appeal to a broader audience than just those of us who love this one.

Granted, I hold pretty broad genre definitions, but for me, for a book to be apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic, whatever, life as we know it needs to end, even if it's not technically destroyed.

Exactly!

Arthur wrote: "ajah wrote: "The major story arc of Crown of Stars is the apocalyptic end to that planet as the section that was removed many thousands of years before by an enormous spell is returned when that sp..."

I don't know that epic fantasy and post-apocalyptic are mutually exclusive. I don't normally think of them the same way but I don't think it's wrong to do so. There's a lot of sci-fi post-apocalyptic fiction and a lot of horror post-apoalyptic fiction, why should fantasy be excluded?

ajah wrote: "The major story arc of Crown of Stars is the apocalyptic end to that planet as the section that was removed many thousands of years before by an enormous spell is returned when that spell breaks. T..."

True, but that's it. In one sentence you have summed up the idea. The rest is epic fantasy.

The major story arc of Crown of Stars is the apocalyptic end to that planet as the section that was removed many thousands of years before by an enormous spell is returned when that spell breaks. The result is similar to the earth being smashed by a giant meteor - volcanic activity, massive tsunamis, etc.

ajah wrote: "I love the Crown of Stars series by Kate Elliot..."

What does it have to do with Apocalypse Novels?

It is 7 books pure fantasy series (I am not going to argue here of how bad the series is).

ajah wrote: "But as I'm a sucker for apocalyptic stories, i even liked the schlocky movie The Day After Tomorrow so perhaps I'm too biased! "

I hated that movie the first time I saw it but it's grown on me since then.

As to the above comments, I agree that I Am Legend is excellent, as well as Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler.

I also read Armegeddon's Children, and found it a bit too "elfy."

As far as others, I love the Crown of Stars series by Kate Elliot and also enjoyed Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke.

But as I'm a sucker for apocalyptic stories, i even liked the schlocky movie The Day After Tomorrow so perhaps I'm too biased!

Wastelands was mentioned a while back and I heartily second it as a great apocalyptic anthology.

Beyond Armageddon is another great anthology. It's older, though, so much of the focus is on the cold war. Still, there's some great material.

I also recommend I Am Legend, but be aware it has some racist/sexist material, especially if you read the version in his compilation. It was fine for the times, but time has moved on. The story itself is amazing and nothing at all like the movie. As someone behind me in the theater said, "the only thing that had in common with the book was the shutters on the windows!"

World War Z. Yes, it's a zombie novel. But the thing is so incredibly well written that I continue to think about it years later and it's become one of my all time favorite books. I really can't say enough about it.

Summer of the Apocalypse is another good one and I also liked One Second After.

Has anyone cited Max Brooks' 'World War Z'?

It's a really good book, and I like the inter-textuality with other zombie 'lore'. Well worth a read.

There's a movie? <leaving abruptly to research this>

Peregrine wrote: "When Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer
After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer

Oh, I absolutely love these books. I wish they also had made a movie of "After Worlds Collide".
I watched "When Worlds Collide" today actually. It's a Favorite.

Peregrine wrote: "When Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer
After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer

I believe these books are out of print. They are copyrighted 1932 and 1933 respectively..."

Excellent suggestion! I had forgotten these, having read them years ago and of course the movie (When Worlds Collide) is a classic.

It is OOP, but used copies are easily found. Hardcovers are rather dear, though.

For a long list of nuclear apocalypse novels (and other media) see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuc...

I third (or fourth?) the opinion of The Stand

I also recommend Emma Bull's Bone Dance A Fantasy for Technophiles. It's in the post-Apocalypse category, set in the Twin Cities, MN. All affection for the local setting aside, it's an interesting story, and one of my favorites among Bull's work.

When Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer
After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer

I believe these books are out of print. They are copyrighted 1932 and 1933 respectively; the copies I have are 1982 and 1981 reissues by Warner Books. The premise is: an asteroid is going to hit Earth; whom do we get off the planet? I read them in 1975, when I was 15. I sat on the hallway floor, leaning against my locker, and trembled as I read the description of the collision. I have not read them since, as I'm afraid to break the spell of that first reading. I bought the books some years later, though, just in case!

In the fantasy genre, I vote for Black Company by Glenn Cook. May not be standard Apocalypse but there is a lot of end of the world stuff, gruff military types, desperate people, weird mutant creatures and other fun things that could give Stephen King a run for his money.

I just received, but have not yet read, Stephen Baxter's new Flood. Baxter usually writes hard SF and this about the effects of global warming ...

I'll throw in another vote for Lucifer's Hammer.

And Footfall.

I discovered Wyndham as a kid, around the time of the BBC adaption of The Day of the Triffids, and really liked his stuff. He's the master of the cozy catastrophe. Triffids, The Kraken Wakes, The Chrysalids, Web. Web terrified me.

FriarTuck wrote: "One of my favorites is Wolf And Iron by Gordon R. Dickson "

I agree, that is also a very good book - and totally different from all his other works!

One of my favorites is Wolf And Iron by Gordon R. Dickson

Just finished the classic "Earth Abides" last weekend - it was excellent!

Just finishing One by Conrad Williams, it's a pretty good Apocalyptic novel.

It seems strange to say, "My favorite apocalyptic novel is..." However, I think The Sheep Look Up by John Brunner is a great read. I also enjoyed O'Brien's Z is for Zachariah and Neil Gaiman's Good Omens.

As others have pointed out, Brin's The Postman and King's The Stand are also outstanding.

I would say Stephen Kings 'The Stand' and a great short by Ray Bradbury 'There will come soft rains'

Kernos wrote: "I just finished Jack McDevitt's novel Moonfall which I really enjoyed. It is hard SF, peri-apocalyptic rather than post-apocalyptic which haunt the media.

Thanks, Kernos, I have added all three of those books to my TBR list, after looking at them. Do you have anymore good recs?

I just finished Jack McDevitt's novel Moonfall which I really enjoyed. It is hard SF, peri-apocalyptic rather than post-apocalyptic which haunt the media.

Another really imaginative novel is Stephen Baxter's Moonseed. Be frightened if you are a Brit!

I also really like Lucifer's Hammer

I am wondering if anyone has done a really good SFF novelization of Revelations?

I don't think that anyone has mentioned "The Gate To Women's Country" by Sheri Tepper. Great book!

has anyone mentioned octavia butler's xenogenesis (lilith's brood) trilogy? that's my favorite apocalypes novel, and possibly my favorite sci-fi. i'm a little nutty in my enthusiasm for her books.

The Amadeus Net, by Mark Rayner. It's not strictly an apocalypse novel; it focuses more on the human race in the aftermath of an apocalypse and the AI who runs the utopia where Mozart lives.

I would like to add a little treasure I believe this short story is. The name is " By the Waters of Babylon" by S.V.Benet. He was an american poet but he wrote this science fiction story.
Published in 1937 ( !! ) in a book called "The Pocket Book of Science Fiction " Set in a future , a young man,explored a forbidden land named "Place of the Gods" in a world where the industrial civilization has been destroyed...

There are a lot of great books mentioned already on this thread - many I have read, but the rest I've added to my TBR list (if it wasn't there already.)

Other series' I enjoyed are:
Donald E. McQuinn's Warrior, Wanderer, Witch

Suzy McKee Charnas' Holdfast Chronicles Walk to End of the World, Motherlines, The Furies Book Three of 'The Holdfast Chronicles', and The Conqueror's Child

and a really interesting one, where three alternate possibilities are covered (one in each book), by Kim Stanley Robinson:
The Wild Shore Three Californias, The Gold Coast Three Californias, Pacific Edge Three Californias

and some standalone novels:
OSC's The Folk of the Fringe,
Dickson's Wolf And Iron,
Heinlein's Farnham's Freehold,
Leigh Richards' Califia's Daughters,
Kate Wilhelm's Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang

I thought "Damnation Alley" was a fun book. I liked it. Didn't like the movie, though.

I don't recall the vehicles as being like Kitt, in the book. No wise-cracking computer, just maps, view screens & targeting computers. Lots of weapons. The descriptions reminded me more of an APC with wheels. Didn't seem too outlandish. It's been a while since I read it, though.

Jim wrote: ""A Pail of Air" by Fritz Leiber(?) is one of my favorite apocalyptic short stories.

I'll second [b:Lucifer's Hammer|218467|Lucifer's Hammer|Larry Niven|http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1172796426s..."


With all due respect, Damnation Alley was a horrible movie made from a horrible book. I could be wrong but a giant camper with Knight-Rider like ability technology would inspire mostly laughter and ridicule from the post apocalypse raiders rather than shock and awe. :D

But the Pail of Air looks good. Will check it out.

Bumping up for Em.

Let me just add two things...

The S.M. Sterling series beginning with Dies the Fire

and a different twist... the Idlewild series by Nick Sagan