Carolyn, I didn't necessarily mean you when I said "argument". It had descended to that level before either of us posted anything.

I like your definition of the post apocalpyse and watching the society rebuild. In Shannara, at least, that has occured, and some of the later books show that story. The early ones I wouldn't put in this category because they didn't touch on that subject very much, and it was very 'epic fantasy'. I can't say for sure about the Elliott series, but I thought the points made in its favor were fine.

The only real disagreement I might have with what you said is the fact that it should take place here, on this planet. Other places could have one too. In fact, in some of those stories, it actually turned out to be this world after all that was destroyed, but I won't give examples as they are spoilers...

Potato / Potato

You say argument, I say discussion.
Is it worth having a discussion over? I think so, one of the main reasons I come to GR is for discussions.

In regards to your question, I don't believe a "technology-free, medieval type" society is necessarily a "fantasy" society - there are plenty of low-tech/bio-tech/no-tech societies in science fiction (and actually in real life in third world countries.)

And no, we're not talking about certain kinds of apocalypses, I think we're just talking about them taking place here, on this planet, in this world, sometime in the future. There's no hard-and-fast rule about any other details of this genre, but overall it tends to be about people coping with the aftermath, or in the long term, about a re/discovery of knowledge or a coming-of-age story, or about a conflict between the character and the society that has risen from the ashes.

Most post-Apocalypse novels seem to assume some sort of dystopia, though many aren't clear on what happened. Since their focus is on the "post-" rather than the Apocalypse, maybe they weren't concerned with what went wrong, only that it did.

Even Terry Brook's Shannara books posited a previous, high-tech society.

Wouldn't a technology-free, medieval type "fantasy" society be an example of what might emerge from an apocalypse?

Or are we only talking about certain kinds of apocalypses?

Just like with any label we attach to a book, some will fit it better than others, and some people will disagree. Is it really worth arguing about?

I have to agree with Arthur that the Crown of Stars series is not post-apocalyptic fiction, it's just fantasy. Post-apocalyptic fiction generally falls within the genre of science fiction. Mostly (there may be an exception or two), it's about the end of life-as-we-know-it on this planet, in one of our societies.

Many different science fiction and fantasy books have some kind of 'cataclysm' in their pasts - the Valdemar series by Mercedes Lackey is a perfect example. The author went back and wrote several books all about the 'Mage Wars' and the Cataclysm, but having some kind of apocalyptic event in the past of that land, doesn't make the books Post-Apocalyptic in the sense of the genre we're talking about in this thread. In a strictly literal sense of the words, yes, there was an apocalypse in it's history and so everything in those books is after that - but from the genre use of the term, Post-Apocalypse books are an exploration of how people might cope in the aftermath, and what kind of society might rise from the ashes. This is where the genre also merges a bit with dystopian fiction (although it is it's own genre) because many of those societies are dystopian.

Historically, the post-apocalyptic genre had a huge boom in popularity and number of books being written about the topic after Hiroshima/the atomic bomb was discovered.

I am not going to argue anymore.
It is a specific thread for Apocalypse novels. I am pretty sure the Crown of Stars series does not fall into this category, it is pure fantasy (an a very bad one IMHO but people have different tastes).
It is my opinion and a word of warning for people who come here for an advice.
You may want to believe whatever you fancy.

Arthur wrote: "True, but that's it. In one sentence you have summed up the idea. The rest is epic fantasy."

Can't ALL apocalyptic-type stories be summed up similarly? They all feature the end of the world or life in some way, but that's never the whole story.

Can't they all be categorized within a secondary genre, or more? I think all of my apocalyptic-type books are cross-shelved because they all can fit within other genres and appeal to a broader audience than just those of us who love this one.

Granted, I hold pretty broad genre definitions, but for me, for a book to be apocalyptic or post-apocalyptic, whatever, life as we know it needs to end, even if it's not technically destroyed.

Exactly!

Arthur wrote: "ajah wrote: "The major story arc of Crown of Stars is the apocalyptic end to that planet as the section that was removed many thousands of years before by an enormous spell is returned when that sp..."

I don't know that epic fantasy and post-apocalyptic are mutually exclusive. I don't normally think of them the same way but I don't think it's wrong to do so. There's a lot of sci-fi post-apocalyptic fiction and a lot of horror post-apoalyptic fiction, why should fantasy be excluded?

ajah wrote: "The major story arc of Crown of Stars is the apocalyptic end to that planet as the section that was removed many thousands of years before by an enormous spell is returned when that spell breaks. T..."

True, but that's it. In one sentence you have summed up the idea. The rest is epic fantasy.

The major story arc of Crown of Stars is the apocalyptic end to that planet as the section that was removed many thousands of years before by an enormous spell is returned when that spell breaks. The result is similar to the earth being smashed by a giant meteor - volcanic activity, massive tsunamis, etc.

ajah wrote: "I love the Crown of Stars series by Kate Elliot..."

What does it have to do with Apocalypse Novels?

It is 7 books pure fantasy series (I am not going to argue here of how bad the series is).

ajah wrote: "But as I'm a sucker for apocalyptic stories, i even liked the schlocky movie The Day After Tomorrow so perhaps I'm too biased! "

I hated that movie the first time I saw it but it's grown on me since then.

As to the above comments, I agree that I Am Legend is excellent, as well as Parable of the Sower by Octavia Butler.

I also read Armegeddon's Children, and found it a bit too "elfy."

As far as others, I love the Crown of Stars series by Kate Elliot and also enjoyed Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke.

But as I'm a sucker for apocalyptic stories, i even liked the schlocky movie The Day After Tomorrow so perhaps I'm too biased!

Wastelands was mentioned a while back and I heartily second it as a great apocalyptic anthology.

Beyond Armageddon is another great anthology. It's older, though, so much of the focus is on the cold war. Still, there's some great material.

I also recommend I Am Legend, but be aware it has some racist/sexist material, especially if you read the version in his compilation. It was fine for the times, but time has moved on. The story itself is amazing and nothing at all like the movie. As someone behind me in the theater said, "the only thing that had in common with the book was the shutters on the windows!"

World War Z. Yes, it's a zombie novel. But the thing is so incredibly well written that I continue to think about it years later and it's become one of my all time favorite books. I really can't say enough about it.

Summer of the Apocalypse is another good one and I also liked One Second After.

Has anyone cited Max Brooks' 'World War Z'?

It's a really good book, and I like the inter-textuality with other zombie 'lore'. Well worth a read.

There's a movie? <leaving abruptly to research this>

Peregrine wrote: "When Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer
After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer

Oh, I absolutely love these books. I wish they also had made a movie of "After Worlds Collide".
I watched "When Worlds Collide" today actually. It's a Favorite.

Peregrine wrote: "When Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer
After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer

I believe these books are out of print. They are copyrighted 1932 and 1933 respectively..."

Excellent suggestion! I had forgotten these, having read them years ago and of course the movie (When Worlds Collide) is a classic.

It is OOP, but used copies are easily found. Hardcovers are rather dear, though.

For a long list of nuclear apocalypse novels (and other media) see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuc...

I third (or fourth?) the opinion of The Stand

I also recommend Emma Bull's Bone Dance A Fantasy for Technophiles. It's in the post-Apocalypse category, set in the Twin Cities, MN. All affection for the local setting aside, it's an interesting story, and one of my favorites among Bull's work.

When Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer
After Worlds Collide, by Philip Wylie and Edwin Balmer

I believe these books are out of print. They are copyrighted 1932 and 1933 respectively; the copies I have are 1982 and 1981 reissues by Warner Books. The premise is: an asteroid is going to hit Earth; whom do we get off the planet? I read them in 1975, when I was 15. I sat on the hallway floor, leaning against my locker, and trembled as I read the description of the collision. I have not read them since, as I'm afraid to break the spell of that first reading. I bought the books some years later, though, just in case!

In the fantasy genre, I vote for Black Company by Glenn Cook. May not be standard Apocalypse but there is a lot of end of the world stuff, gruff military types, desperate people, weird mutant creatures and other fun things that could give Stephen King a run for his money.

I just received, but have not yet read, Stephen Baxter's new Flood. Baxter usually writes hard SF and this about the effects of global warming ...

I'll throw in another vote for Lucifer's Hammer.

And Footfall.

I discovered Wyndham as a kid, around the time of the BBC adaption of The Day of the Triffids, and really liked his stuff. He's the master of the cozy catastrophe. Triffids, The Kraken Wakes, The Chrysalids, Web. Web terrified me.

FriarTuck wrote: "One of my favorites is Wolf And Iron by Gordon R. Dickson "

I agree, that is also a very good book - and totally different from all his other works!

One of my favorites is Wolf And Iron by Gordon R. Dickson

Just finished the classic "Earth Abides" last weekend - it was excellent!

Just finishing One by Conrad Williams, it's a pretty good Apocalyptic novel.

It seems strange to say, "My favorite apocalyptic novel is..." However, I think The Sheep Look Up by John Brunner is a great read. I also enjoyed O'Brien's Z is for Zachariah and Neil Gaiman's Good Omens.

As others have pointed out, Brin's The Postman and King's The Stand are also outstanding.

I would say Stephen Kings 'The Stand' and a great short by Ray Bradbury 'There will come soft rains'

Kernos wrote: "I just finished Jack McDevitt's novel Moonfall which I really enjoyed. It is hard SF, peri-apocalyptic rather than post-apocalyptic which haunt the media.

Thanks, Kernos, I have added all three of those books to my TBR list, after looking at them. Do you have anymore good recs?

I just finished Jack McDevitt's novel Moonfall which I really enjoyed. It is hard SF, peri-apocalyptic rather than post-apocalyptic which haunt the media.

Another really imaginative novel is Stephen Baxter's Moonseed. Be frightened if you are a Brit!

I also really like Lucifer's Hammer

I am wondering if anyone has done a really good SFF novelization of Revelations?

I don't think that anyone has mentioned "The Gate To Women's Country" by Sheri Tepper. Great book!

has anyone mentioned octavia butler's xenogenesis (lilith's brood) trilogy? that's my favorite apocalypes novel, and possibly my favorite sci-fi. i'm a little nutty in my enthusiasm for her books.

The Amadeus Net, by Mark Rayner. It's not strictly an apocalypse novel; it focuses more on the human race in the aftermath of an apocalypse and the AI who runs the utopia where Mozart lives.

I would like to add a little treasure I believe this short story is. The name is " By the Waters of Babylon" by S.V.Benet. He was an american poet but he wrote this science fiction story.
Published in 1937 ( !! ) in a book called "The Pocket Book of Science Fiction " Set in a future , a young man,explored a forbidden land named "Place of the Gods" in a world where the industrial civilization has been destroyed...

There are a lot of great books mentioned already on this thread - many I have read, but the rest I've added to my TBR list (if it wasn't there already.)

Other series' I enjoyed are:
Donald E. McQuinn's Warrior, Wanderer, Witch

Suzy McKee Charnas' Holdfast Chronicles Walk to End of the World, Motherlines, The Furies Book Three of 'The Holdfast Chronicles', and The Conqueror's Child

and a really interesting one, where three alternate possibilities are covered (one in each book), by Kim Stanley Robinson:
The Wild Shore Three Californias, The Gold Coast Three Californias, Pacific Edge Three Californias

and some standalone novels:
OSC's The Folk of the Fringe,
Dickson's Wolf And Iron,
Heinlein's Farnham's Freehold,
Leigh Richards' Califia's Daughters,
Kate Wilhelm's Where Late the Sweet Birds Sang

I thought "Damnation Alley" was a fun book. I liked it. Didn't like the movie, though.

I don't recall the vehicles as being like Kitt, in the book. No wise-cracking computer, just maps, view screens & targeting computers. Lots of weapons. The descriptions reminded me more of an APC with wheels. Didn't seem too outlandish. It's been a while since I read it, though.

Jim wrote: ""A Pail of Air" by Fritz Leiber(?) is one of my favorite apocalyptic short stories.

I'll second [b:Lucifer's Hammer|218467|Lucifer's Hammer|Larry Niven|http://photo.goodreads.com/books/1172796426s..."


With all due respect, Damnation Alley was a horrible movie made from a horrible book. I could be wrong but a giant camper with Knight-Rider like ability technology would inspire mostly laughter and ridicule from the post apocalypse raiders rather than shock and awe. :D

But the Pail of Air looks good. Will check it out.

Bumping up for Em.

Let me just add two things...

The S.M. Sterling series beginning with Dies the Fire

and a different twist... the Idlewild series by Nick Sagan

I'm finished with The Genesis of Shannara trilogy and it was awesome!
1. Armageddon's Children
2. The Elves of Cintra
3. The Gypsy Morph

A good part of it deals with children who were born into this really messed up world. It reminds me of what someone posted about The Road in another thread: how she couldn't believe the level of fear the boy was experiencing because he was born into it. Children are highly adaptable, even to the worst of situations and they have nothing to compare it with, screwed up world is normal to them if they were born when everything was already messed up.
The children in this series are much more believable because they make due with what they got, and have learned how to survive, but they aren't in a constant state of fear. Wary, yes, fear, no.
They are on their own and learn how to live with only each other as family.
What I liked most about this novel is Hope. One of the children, Hawk, has a vision. It's one of Hope. And this the story of how they follow Hawk's vision to a promised land where they will be safe. There's danger along the way, of course, and hardships and loss. But there's still Hope. That's important to me. I'm not into all doom and gloom, I need a light at the end of the tunnel and Genesis delivers.

I have to amend what I said earlier about not reading The Word and The Void series. I think it would be better to read it first, it does set the stage of how things got this way, to a degree. You needn't have read any of the Shannara novels first but I will guarantee that if you like this, you'll want to read them.

David,

oh, sorry for that, thank you !

Patricio: hey, that was me ;o)

Patricio wrote: "Thank you Nick for remember me Barjavel, he was good.
I would also like to add anoother book from Merle, also a post apocalipse novel, as " Les Hommes Protegé " , I have read it in spanish. The t..."

There's a great 'less known' novel by Frank Herbert (Dune author) about a man-made plague, starting in Ireland, that kills almost all the women in the UK and other parts of the world. Highly recommend it:

The White Plague

Do you guys count comics?
Y The Last Man Vol. 1 Unmanned is a great ten-volume story (complete with ending) about an event that wipes out all of the males of all species, and the various changes that brings about.

Thank you Nick for remember me Barjavel, he was good.
I would also like to add anoother book from Merle, also a post apocalipse novel, as " Les Hommes Protegé " , I have read it in spanish. The traslation in English may be " The protected men " where due to a flu only a few men survived. The women were not affected.
Merle is the same that wrote " The day of the dolphin"

Year Zero by Jeff Long has not been mentioned in this thread yet. It was not sold as SF, so missed the radar screen of a lot of readers in general.

Kyle wrote: "
The Road by Cormac McCarthy
: )"

I definitely second The Road. Also Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood is brilliant :-)

The Stand by Stephen King

Swan's Song by Robert McCammon

Lucifer'sa Hammer by Robert Diven

The Road by Cormac McCarthy

: )