FitzGerald's translation of the Rubáiyát of Omar Khayyám is notable for the frequency and ubiquity of quotations from it and allusions to it. Its popularity, still high, is in decline; but for about a century following its publication, it formed part of the mental furniture of most English-speaking readers.


حیف است که نقل ترجمه های ماندگار باشد و از ادوارد فیتزجرالد و ترجمه آزاد و نابش از رباعیات خیام به تحسین یاد نشود
به نظر این حقیر تنها کسانی چون او مجاز به ارتکاب اعمالی چنین پر خطراند

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Fitz...(poet)

خیام می فرماید

چون عمر به سر رسد چه بغداد و چه بلخ
پیمانه چو پر شود چه شیرین و چه تلخ
خوش باش که بعد از من و تو ماه بسی
از سلخ به غره آید از غره به سلخ

and FitzGerald recreation is as:

Whether at Naishapur or Babylon
Whether the Cup with sweet or bitter run,
The Wine of Life keeps oozing drop by drop
The leaves of Life keep falling one by one

Saidi has also translated it as:

And sour or sweet, why fuss since life shall fly,
At Balkh or Baghdad – why care where we die?
Drink wine, for silv'ry Moon will keep its beat
From full to new long after you and I

and in Whinfield translation it is:

When life is spent, what's Balkh or Nishapore?
What sweet or bitter, when the cup runs o'er?
Come drink! full many a moon will wax and wane
In time to come, when we are here no more.

For more discussions on this verse please refer to:
http://www.exploringkhayyam.com/journal/...

خیام می فرماید

خيام اگر ز باده مستى خوش باش
با ماه رخى اگر نشستى خوش باش
چون عاقبت كار جهان نيستى است
انگار كه نيستى چو هستى خوش باش

In Fitzgerald's Recreation is:

And if the Wine you drink, the Lip you press,
End in the Nothing all Things end in
Yes — Then fancy while Thou art
Thou art but what Thou shalt be Nothing Thou shalt not be less

خيام می فرمايد

می خور که به زیر گل بسی خواهی خفت
بی مونس و بی حریف و بی همدم و جفت
زنهار به کس مگو تو این راز نهفت
هر لاله که پژمرد نخواهد که شکفت

and Fitzgerald recreates it as

Oh, threats of Hell and Hopes of Paradise !
One thing at least is certain-- This Life flies;
One thing is certain and the rest is Lies;
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.

خيام مي فرمايد

اجزاي پياله اي كه در هم پيوست
بشكستن آن روا نمي دارد مست
چندين سر و پاي نازنين و بر و دست
در مهر كه پيوست و بكين كه شكست

FitzGerald says;

Another said -- "Why, ne'er a peevish Boy
Would break the Bowl from which he drank in Joy;
And He that with his hand the Vessel made
Will surely not in after Wrath destroy!"

AWAKE! for Morning in the Bowl of Night
Has flung the Stone that puts the Stars to Flight:
And Lo! the Hunter of the East has caught
The Sultan’s Turret in a Noose of Light

خيام مي فرمايد
(Khayyam)
آن قصر كه جمشيد در او جام گرفت
آهو بچه كرد و روبه آرام گرفت
بهرام كه گور مي گرفتي همه عمر
ديدي كه چگونه گور بهرام گرفت

and Fitzgerald says;

They say the Lion and the Lizard keep
The Courts where Jamshyd gloried and drank deep:
And Bahram, that great Hunter — the Wild Ass
Stamps o’er his Head, but cannot break his Sleep

In Persian the word Gourگور has two meanings
1- Wild Ass 2-Grave. In original Khayyam Rubaiy we have Bahram which used to hunt Gour(Wild Ass) and then has been hunted by Gour(Grave). It was the Fitzgerald art to recreate the message of this part in English and also in original work Gazelle and Fox are pointed which now live in the empty palace of Jamshid and Fitzgerald has changed it to Lion and Lizard which are more meaningful in English litrature. Another translator has translated it as:

The palace where Jamshid held his cup
The doe and the fox now rest and sup
Bahram who hunted game non-stop
Was hunted by death when his time was up

As you see Fitzgerald work is much more beautiful and literary

در مصرع آخر اين شعر برگردان ظريف فيتزجرالد ديده مي شود كه گرچه كلمه گور تنها در زبان فارسي اين دو معنا را همزمان دارد ليك فيتزجرالد همان مفهوم را با زباني بسيار لطيف و زيبا در انگليسي بازآفريني كرده است

H.K - ح.ك

An introduction to Khayyam by Ali Ohadi:

Ghiyās od-Dīn Abul-Fatah Omār ibn Ibrāhīm Khayyām Nishābūrī, known as: Omar Khayyam (Nishapur, Persiam May 18, 1048 – December 4, 1131) was a Poet, mathematician, philosopher and astronomer.
He is best known for his quatrains (rubaiyaas) in, popularized through Edward Fitzgerald's re-created translation. His substantial mathematical contributions include his Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra, which gives a geometric method for solving cubic equations, also contributed to calendar reform.

Ali Ohadi
http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/725...
http://www.iruniha.persianblog.ir

these comments in english (such as on Gourگور) plus the great weblinks are so appreciated: thank you

i find it most interesting how fitzgerald renders #19 as twin couplets: each couplet an apposition (parallelism); the two couplets themselves in apposition.

contrast that with the other renderings which try to spell it out (trying to say the poet means, rather than saying what he says) with the rhetoci of a speech (why? who cares? etc) as if it were one long sentence, or block of prose; whereas the fitzgerald leaves it to the reader to make his or her associations, glean the implications, etc. in that sense the reader then participates in the 'translation' of the poem itself. (poesis [greek:] = making)

as such, he seems to prefer the paraphrase to the translation — which is a very valid approach for literary translation. witness his success with it.

also, the structure of the other versions rearrange the order of the exposition of the elements, and add images not in the fitzgerald that might not have been in the original either (moon?) — (but 'leaves' might not have been in the original either, i dont know).

no less admirable is fitzgerald's celebrated language feats: a five-beat iambic cadence used with flowing ease; a consistent but smooth, even yet elevated diction without strain, (where Saidi's "fuss" stands out in terms of tone); and that incredible rhyme in the first two lines (or Babylon / or bitter run).

— it's no less amazing in latin!*

along with the four or five versions he did in english (i have an edition with all those versions), the rendering into latin shows how he was seeking a classical referent (triangulating, as it were); interesting

what's missing for me (who speak english only, no persian) is an interlinear (aka 'trot' or 'pony') of the persian/english), without which i can only comment on translations as poems in english, without referent to the originals —

(until any two civilizations can have such an opportunity, there's always that gap — nevertheless i believe that within this gap even our miscommunication can be fruitful)

______________________

*(i've seen fitzgerald's translations rendered in chinese — which leads to a whole separate question, as to mutual influences / cultural interchanges, between persia and china, china and persia, who both evolved and refined the quatrain to extraordinary degree)

Thanks for the professional analysis of Fitzgerald work. I think it will take me some time to fully understand your academic descriptions!
Then I will prepare a post to explain the rhythm and rules in Rubaiyat (Rubai’s)(which are a category of classical Perisan poems like Ghazal,Masnavi, Dobeiti and modern poems of Shamlou, Farokhzad and others)
After the review of Rubai’s structure , I could write about the way to realize the original Ruabis of Khayyam from others (more than 1500 Rubai’s are claimed to be Khayyam’s work but studies by Mohammad Ali Foroughi, Ghasem Ghani , Sadigh Hedayat and some others show that a real Rubai of Khayyam should have some specific marks and only less than 200 are seemed to be original poem of him)
Another perspective is to choose the most beautiful and Philosophical Rubai’s with different translations to be reviewed or having you here we even dare to try to translate few samples.

Your proposal sounds splendid. I am honored by your offer.

By the way, since I don't wish to assume anything, I wonder if the "interlinear" (also known as a trot or pony) is a familiar typographic function in your part of the universe? I've seen it used for, say, Latin; imagine the capital letters are Latin and the lower-case letters are English:

XX XXXX XXXXX XXXXXX XXX XXXXX XXXX XXXX
oo ooo ooooooooo [o] ooooooo ooo

I've had the pleasure of creating a booklet of epigrams this way, with Chinese lines and the English words underneath the Chinese characters. So you can see four Chinese characters:

XXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX
open door see mountain


{in Chinese the word for door looks like a door; the word for "see" is an eye on legs; mountain looks like a mountain etc)

Followed by a translation. (The "interlinear" is really a paraphrase — and I've heard it say the Fitzgerald often paraphrases rather than translates — lets Khayyam speak for himself).

If we could do that with one Rubai, ah! that would be so deep. (A loaf of bread, a jug of wine, and a paraphrase of rubai by Omar, 'twere paradise enow.)

As a small token of my gratitude, I am posting a brief file elsewhere here in Great Translations, on the structure Chinese quatrains; I hope you enjoy.

I look forward to our next encounter.

Please take care.

It is tacitly understood that describing the Prosody rules of the classical Persian poems in English is so difficult for me. I do not have the related academic education in this area and even in Persian for me the detection of the rhythm and poetic techniques of poems are the matter of the great challenge but I have tried to simplify what I have found about Rubai (I will ignored the complicated exceptions for simplicity of the discussion)

Rules for a typical Rubai :
1- It has 2 distiches each has 2 hemistiches (4 hemistiches)
2- These hemistiches all have the common rhythm of --U/U—U/U—U/U- (Long Syllable:- and short Syllable: U)
3- 1st ,2nd and 4th should have the common rhyme (sometimes the 3rd hemistich has it as well)

Apart from the rules, it is interesting to know that Rubai has been firstly introduced by Persian poet Rudaki and has got the rhythm from the poems, children used to read years ago. Most of the times a Rubai has theosophical, philosophical or romantic theme. In Khayyam’s Rubaiyat apart from these themes we face description of the nature.

Now I bring an example to analyse the structure of a Rubai:

Gardun negari ze ghadi farsoodeyi mast
Jeyhoon asari ze ashki paloudeyi mast
Doozakh sharari ze ranji bihoodeyi mast
Ferdows dami ze vaghti asoodeyi mast

--U/U—U/U—U/U-
--U/U—U/U—U/U-
--U/U—U/U—U/U-
--U/U—U/U—U/U-

You can easily find the common rhyme which are in the last 5 words of the 4 parts. But the discussion about rhythm is more complex as we should divide each part to match it with the pattern (of --U/U—U/U—U/U-). I have tried to do it for the first part
--U/U—U/U—U/U-
Gardun ne/gari ze gha/di farsoode/yi mast
Gar -,dun -,ne U/ga U, ri -, ze - ,gha U / di U ,far - , soo -, de U/ yi U mast –

As is shown you may divide the word to syllables to match them with different pattern masks (e.g. /U—U/ ). If you like , I will recommend you to search for the rhythm and rhyme (or Prosody) of the Persian poems to learn more about this topic as it is all I have to say now about the structure of the Rubai.
In next post I will focus on Khayyam and will try to explain about the concepts and meaning of Rubaiyat but if I found any attractive point in Persian I will attempt to describe it for you in English to enjoy it like us.

I look forward to the days you enjoy Rubayiat as much as us!
H.K.

Here is another link to the Fitzgerald rendition:

http://rpo.library.utoronto.ca/poem/821....

salam, hamed, and thank you

i've copied and printed this out and will read it a couple times through the weekend

qoda'hafiz

salam, hamed


well, i read through message #12 last night and found it fairly easy to comprehend: altho' i marvel out how richly complex is the pattern you present. [i think the technical words for your presentation might be scansion; meter]

perfectly amazing! — wonderful, and a clear perfect example of what does NOT translate: the music. of course one can translate images and ideas* (to the extent that they are NOT dependent upon music). OR one can approximate the music, in the secondary language.

but, man!, this kind of 'vertical' rhyming doesn't even in occur in italian, which is noted for its music (hence frequent use as text in operas).

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

so now i'm wondering about (a) what the individual words words themselves mean :

Gardun negari ze ghadi farsoodeyi mast
xxxxxx xxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxx

Jeyhoon asari ze ashki paloudeyi mast
xxxxxx xxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxx

Doozakh sharari ze ranji bihoodeyi mast
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxx

Ferdows dami ze vaghti asoodeyi mast
Xxxxxxx xxxx xx xxxxxX xxxxxxxx xxxx

[if you might please only replace the xxx's with the literal translations of the words above them, then we'd have a 'pony' -- an interlinear -- don't know if it's ever been done before whatsoever at all -- ]

* * * * * * * * * * * *

* speaking of ideas, i wonder what you think of the relation of the rubai to the chinese quatrain, in terms of structure of ideas

__________________________________
the ancient greeks had several terms for the various dimensions or elements of poetry: three leading ones are

phanopoeia - imagery
logopoeia - ideas
melopoeia - music

Dear Gary,

I deeply enjoy your attraction and professional view on our poetic discussion. But what a pity ? I am sure if you knew Persian, you could find so many technical and fine points in each Rubai. In order to perfectly reply your posts I should study both Persian Literature and English language in which I am just a tyro. I wrote the poem in Persian but here the number of letters are not important as the rhythm is built by the way we pronounce them. I ask you to suggest me an easy way to compose the verse as it is read in my language, in this way you will feel the rhythm much more better.
I seek a way to write the rhythm in English as an example are you ok if I express it like this?

Daa raam da / da raam daam da / da raam daam da / da raam

“aa” like A in CAR and “a” like A in CAT

I know, it may be seemed silly but sorry that’s all I have to write by now (apart from those meter symboles I brought before)!!!

About the meaning of each word, I will try to find the best words by searching all translations of Khayyam but I am as eager as you to show you this beautiful artistic Rubai of Khayyam exactly like it is in Persian, so I put the words that I find right now and later I will replace them with better choices.

Gardoon negari ze ghadi farsoodeyi mast
xxxxxx xxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxx
(world) (you look) (of) (stature ) (irked) (our is)

Jeyhoon asari ze ashki paloodeyi mast
xxxxxx xxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxxx
(Oxus) (a reflection) (of) (tear) (refined) (our is )

Doozakh sharari ze ranji bihoodeyi mast
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxx
(hell) (a flame) (of) (pain) (futile) (our is)
Ferdows dami ze vaghti asoodeyi mast
Xxxxxxx xxxx xx xxxxxX xxxxxxxx xxxx
(paradise) (a moment ) (of) (time) (calm) (our is)

---------------------------------------------
Note 1- In Persian adjectives come after the name so by ->(Stature )(irked) we mean (irked Stature ) and so (refined tear) and (futile pain) and (calm time) are right.
Note 2- Gardoon exactly means sphere or something that revolving all the time and in Persian poetry means world as it changes all the time and ….
Note 3 – Gardoon and Negari both have G R N A letters and somehow have a harmony in Persian pronunciation
Note 4 – Asar = outcome = effect = reflection
Note 5 - Oxus is a river on Old Persia which is now in Afghaniastan
Note 6 - Ranji = a pain = an attempt = an agony = a suffering
Note 7 - Generally words should be re-ordered in English translation

I just found a translation of this Rubai by Karim Emami as:

The vault of heaven is a reflection of our bent back,
And the Oxus is a symbol of our strained tears;
Hell is but a spark from our futile suffering,
And Paradise is only a moment of our repose.

As mentioned before the following website about Khayyam is fantastic for English readers of Rubaiyat:

http://www.exploringkhayyam.com

But unfortunately I did not find this great Rubai in it.

salam, hamed. many many thanks, indeed, for the noble work, splendid! I look forward to studying your immaculate presentation this weekend ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ meanwhile i am SO grateful to you. your modesty seems but a cloak around your admirable abilities, but i don't need to tell you that. ... qoda'hafiz

Dear Gary,

First part of message #16 was a shot in the dark and a desperate bid to explain music notes in an unordinary childlike manner then I checked a book on music rhythms written by my maestro Ali Akbar Shekarchi and fortunately I found the rhythm of Rubai which was exactly like the meter notation "--U/U—U/U—U/U-", it's enough to replace - by ↓ or quarter note and U by ♪ or eighth note then the rhythm of Rubai would simply be:

6/8 / ↓↓♪ ,♪↓↓♪,♪↓↓♪,♪↓ /

But I am eagerly waiting for your idea as a meticulous literary translator about the meaning and translation of this Rubai. I can give you more and more details and descriptions about each Persian word of this verse to demonstrate the exact image of it.

Sincerely yours,

Descriptions on each word of the Rubai:

Gardoon negari ze ghad'e farsoode'ye mást
گردون نگري ز قد فرسوده ي ماست
Jeyhoon asari ze ashk'e páloode'ye mást
جيحون اثري ز اشك پالوده ي ماست
Doozakh sharari ze ranj'e bihoode'ye mást
دوزخ شرري ز رنج بيهوده ي ماست
Ferdows dami ze vaght'e ásoode'ye mást
فردوس دمي ز وقت آسوده ي ماست

1-Gardoon = revolving = revolver = in Persian poetry it refers to sky or sphere, we have also combinations like Dor'e Gardoon or Charkh'e Gadroon with literal meaning of revolving cycle and revolving wheel which are metaphors for time , world , life and concepts close to them.
2-Negari = Negar + i ; Negar = look , i= you ;so Negari = (when/as) you look
3-Gardoon and Negari have similar Pronunciation in Persian which make this part musical(G N R A letter make this accord)
4-Ze = of / from
5-Ghadi = Ghad’e => Ghad = stature / tallness but it is not limited to the physical structure of body and somehow also related to the moral aspect and spiritual existence of us.(in Persian "‘e" and "’ye" join a name to an adjective or another name like Ghad’e Farsoode’ye Mast )
6-Farsoodeyi = Farsoode’ye => Farsoode = frayed but when we take the moral side of Ghadi it means strained / irked
7-Ghadi Farsoodeyi => Ghad’e Farsoode = frayed stature (Physically) = irked entity (Spiritually). d’e is repeated in Ghad’e and Farsoode’ye which has made a harmony as we read it.
8-Mást= Má + Ast ; Maa= Our/Us ; Ast = is , in Persian it is more beautiful when we use the combination Mást instead of Má Ast as the interruption in pronunciation is omitted
9-Jeyhoon/Jeihoon = Oxus which is the name of an old river in great Persia that now located in Afghanistan but also is a allegory for river in general form
10-Gardoon and Jeyhoon, again a rhyme so in the first two hemistiches of this Rubai all words have rhyming harmony which have made them pretty and musical
11-Asari = Asar + i(a/an) ; Asar = effect / impression /trace /sign /reflection / work (like work in “work of art”)
12-Ashki = Ashk’e => Ashk= tear
13-Páloodeyi = Páloode’ye = Refined = Strained
14-Doozakh = Hell in Persian Jahanam = Jehenna(English) is the best translation for Hell and Doozakh is more literary. I think as there is a rhyming relation between Barzakh and Doozakh in Persian they could be translated as Barzakh = limbo and Doozakh = inferno to keep the rhyme in English (to some extend)
15-Sharari = Sharar + i(a/an); Sharar = Spark (Exactly fiery particle thrown from a fire)it is also a literary expression in Persian
16-Ranji=Ranj’e=>Ranj= pain/agony/attempt/torture/suffering
17-Bihoodeyi = Bihoode’ye = Bi(without)+Hoode(gain=useful) = futile
18-Ferdows : This word is the same Paradise, let me show you how Ferdows has been related to the English Paradise -> In Persian we have the word Pardis = Garden also means Heaven (as is believed that heaven is a garden) and Paradise has a Persian root. F and P are alternative in Persian and Arabic (e.g. Farsi = Parsi = Persian) so: Pardis -> Fardis -> Ferdos -> Ferdows = Garden = Heaven = Paradise. You can follow this link or search to find more about this article :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_ga...
19-Dami = Dam+i(a/an); Dam = Inhalation = Inspiration and BazDam= Exhalation = Expiration ; Dami = a Dam = A moment(as short as an inhalation) but better translations of moment are "Lahzeh" and "Aan" and Dam is a more literary expression.
20-Vaghti = Vaght’e => Vaght = time = or state
21-ásoodeyi=ásoode’ye=>ásoode = calm/reposed /tranquil/peaceful
22-Vaghti Asooodeyi = Vaght’e Asoode’ye ( ‘e and ‘ye again harmony in voice , you can see other cases of consecutive …‘e …‘e or …’e …‘ye in this Rubai and other Rubaiyat and generally Persian poems,but here specially ...ze ...'e ...'ye intensify this state)

Regards
H.K ح.ك

ح.ك

well, i'd refrained from saying anything, hoping something worthy of your inspiration would arise and [perhaps fortunately] nothing did. no words. only awe. and gratitude.

so i logged on today to say this, and, WOW, am greeted by yet more new riches: a really brilliant way of expressing meter [i don't think anyone's ever tried that before in the West, where it's either "long" or "short" and so sometimes clumsy at best] ...

plus what's really fascinating is the annotation: all the earth that comes along with [clings to] the roots of this [glorious] plant when we pull it up out of its soil ... the contexts of the words themselves, for example ...

it only further proves the case against translation, and challenges anyone daring to call his or her self a translator to face the bull eye-to-eye

clearly, it is the music that is most easily lost in translation — and it is the music that is most often the basis for what makes a text poetry [rather than prose].



i'll read this thru a couple times with immense pleasure this week [while unburying myself from some recently overwhelming writing work]. meanwhile —

my initial sense is that the music of rhyme in the rubai [in general?] is utterly daunting to translate in english; not too dissimilar in a way from chinese rhymed quatrain in that respect:

"vertical rhyme" = parallel stacked columns

for example, [nonesense but capturing the musical effect, as i understand it]

red room moon blend
said gloom soon mend
Fred HaKoom's boon ends
wed tomb June trend



and




the other thing i'd noticed was the parallelism in 'the original'

such as, [E.G.],

AT MY DESK, MY BRUSH SWISHES ACROSS THE SILK
OUTSIDE MY WINDOW, THE SWALLOWS FLY SOUTH ...

a common attribute of a couplet ... two parallel images presented like slides, for comparison [or contrast] ...

in this case, two sets of parallel couplets ...

... as such, it seems that the lines are independent [parataxis], stand-alone; and it is their relation that determines the meaning of the poem [we infer "but" or "and" between them ... or "so" and "thus" without them being said ... when they're expressed, the lines are dependent on each other, "hypotaxis"] ...

the tendency {danger} of Western translators in such situation is to make something dependent out of what was independent ... to tell the reader what is going on [aka "colonialism"?] rather than let the reader figure it out for his or herself

i am not familiar with karim emami, but I have the whinfield translation of Omar, altho' there are many [five hundred] so wonder what the number might be for this one, to see how he renders it.

again, sorry for my delay; and thank you again for the immeasurable treasures

GG

— i posted to this yesterday — but it does not appear —— will start all over again in a bit — meanwhile, so many thanks that there are now words

Gary / گري

Your analytical poetic vision on this Rubai defies description! I really learn some beautiful finely prepared points like hypotaxis , parataxis and colonialism but my words here are only practices of a schoolboy to show something to the teacher. I agree with you. When Khayyam makes use of Dami(a moment) and Sharari(a spark) , these expressions show how diminutive are hell and paradise comparing to our futile pain and repose and so words such as only(in Emami translation) make nonsense and even may demean the reader's common sense.

Hamed / حامد

حامد

[i see my prior post did come thru only we're begun on an entirely new page here:]

this is such a wonderful dialogue. i shall remember this rubai all my life, even if i learn others to come, as it is my first encounter, my initial experience, and thus initiatory. [i wonder is it given any standard reference number:]

whether it can be translated at all is another matter. or rather what can be translated, what can't. what i tend to do in my own practice of translation is absorb absorb absorb in the original and there may come a point when something emerges in english, on its own, in its own good time, and i am just the patient transcriber.

classical chinese poetry tends towards paratactic;
classical european poetry tends towards hypotactic. here is an example of a paratactic sentence:

we ran, we sang, we told jokes.

here is an example of a hypotactic sentence.

as we ran, we sang then told jokes.

it is also applies to relations of one line of poetry to another: are they presented without 'subordination' to each other [letting the reader make the relations:], which would be paratactic, or does the language make the relations [hypotactic:], thus when therefore because as and so.

Googling the two words, i find a good example of the two, comparing the structure of the english and chinese languages:

http://tinyurl.com/2xot6a


colonialism in translation is a simple critical recogntion. is the translator letting the reader hear the original, or is the translator trying to make the original part of the the translator's own agenda? the earlier forms of literary translation in my tradition concerned the bible, and after that translation was still linked to the church, so translation often had an agenda of making a foreign agree [or reinforce or prove:] biblical text.

i will post separately, in 'great translators' a translation by ezra pound of a saying of confucius that might clarify this further.


for another instance, am I guilty of colonizing classical persian poetry to my own interest in comparison/contrast between rubai and jué jù, which remain to be explored, and I shall gladly forget about that as the persian forms as you are revealing are so amazingly deep and rich IN AND OF THEMSELVES. astonishingly so, to an illiterate like me. but then ——

you teach me, i teach you; we teach each other.

گري عزيز

I seeked but this Rubai neither was in Whinfield nor in Fitzgerald renderings. Till now the only one is the literal translation of Karim Emami, I have not checked others like saidi yet. I would be pleased to know your opinion about the annotation of Persian words I presented. If you still have any problem to understand and fully feel this Rubai(even a single character of it) to absorb the whole marrow, it will be my honor to describe what I get from that! Of course I do not try to interpreter any of these Rubaiyat and just try to explain every single word of that then you will make the image yourself better than me.
By the way what is your suggestion for the next step. Do you like more Rubai’s? or may prefer to know more about the structure of Rubaiyat and Khayyam? Persian poem Rhythms? or what ever you recommend?

ارادتنمد شما
حامد

in the embarassment of riches you provided, i neglected to spotlight the annotation you provided of the words themselves. if you haven't considered publishing an introduction to persian poetry in english, please don't hesitate to call on me to write a exuberant blurb of praise for your manifold abilities [only, alas, i am no one; unknown; or dubiously obscure].

it is now possible for me to hold in my mind a sense of the original of this rubai, it meaning, its images, and its music, while reading the faint shadow it casts in english translation.

right now i'm preparing to teach a workshop [haiku] twice as long as my usual length, so i confess my teacup is not empty [which it must be in order to be filled, eh no?]

in very early march i'll have caught up and return to your fold. whatever you would like to teach, explain, expound, elaborate on, elucidate, consider me a sponge.

[ meanwhile ... am wondering if there might be any rubai ... by Omar and/or others ... which might not have been translated into English well enough, or at all, or whose translation might bear improvement ... ... ... i certainly think the first example achieves a gold standard for any possible future collaboration ... on any form, by any poet ... ]

2-
آن قصر كه بر چرخ همي زد پهلو
بر درگه او شهان نهادندي رو
ديديم كه بر كنگره اش فاخته اي
بنشسته همي گفت كه كو كو كو كو


aan qasr ke bar charkh hami zad pahlu
bar dargah-e 'u shahaan nehaadandi ru
didim ke bar kongore'ash faakhte'i
benshaste hami goft ke ku ku ku ku*

The Palace to Heav'n his pillars threw,
And kings the forehead on his threshold drew--
I saw the solitary Ringdove there,
And "Coo, coo, coo," she cried; and "Coo, coo, coo."
FitzGerald, Rubaiyat

From that royal palace which once rose to the sky
monarchs in splendor faced the world.
But on its turrets I have seen a ring-dove seated,
cooing, cooing over and over: where, where?
Michael Hillmann

That palace vied with heaven to heaven surpass
with kings on display in court and pomp.
Perched high on a turret, we saw a dove ,
coo-coo her refrain, gone where, gone where ?
http://www.exploringkhayyam.com/journal/...
1-aan = that
2-qasr = palace
3-ke = that/which
4-bar = to/over/on
5-charkh = wheel but like Gardun in the first Rubai, it is a metaphor for the Sky/Heaven /Firmament /Sphere
6-hami zad pahlu = was sideswiping (lit.) / was emulating (meta.)
7-dargah = gateway
8-'u = it
9-shahan = kings
10- nahadandi = were putting , ru = face
11- nahadandi ru = were displaying
12-didim = we saw
13-kongore'ash = kongore + ash= turret / acroterium + of it
14- faakhte'i = faakhte + i(a/an) ->a dove/a ringdove/ a cuckoo
15- benshaste = had sat/settled
16- hami goft = was saying
17- ku = where
18- qasr , bar , char : rhyming harmony
19- gah , shah , nah… : rhyming harmony
20- pahlu,'u ,ru, Ku : rhyming harmony


-------------------------------------------------

For me two things has been so interesting in this Rubai and I have chosen it because of them :
1- The imagination of its ancient picture with all glorious sadness (It is like the image of Persepolis Palace in Persia)
2- Ku Ku Ku Ku : In English you use “coo coo” for the sound of cuckoo but in Persian we use other sounds, so when Khayyam made use of ku ku ku ku (coo coo coo coo) years ago which is interpreted as cooing and at the same time Where? Where ? Where? Where? it could be a nice philological point.

i've copied and am printing this out [same meter as before?] ... looks like an excellent choice; will have more time to reply later in the week ...

thank you, hamed ...

meanwhile, did you know dante rosetti is responsible for plucking a copy of fitzgerald's omar out of the oblivion of a second-hand book bin and making it [deservedly] famous ...

some dates:

landor 1775-1864
browning 1812-1889
fitzgerald 1809-83

possible influence from earlier still on fitzgerald:
rochester [for example his ode to NOTHING]

while doing research for a book proposal this morning, I discovered this:


"The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam" is said to be one of the ten best known poems in the world, and probably the most popular piece of Oriental literature in the Western World. A number of auspicious events were necessary for this phenomenon to occur. If Edward Cowell hadn't been able to interest Edward FitzGerald in the study of the Persian language in 1852 and brought to FitzGerald's notice in 1856 a Persian manuscript in the Bodleian Library at Oxford, then FitzGerald would not have translated these "Epicurean tetrastichs by a Persian of the eleventh century". If Edward FitzGerald himself hadn't persevered, after being rejected by Fraser's Magazine, and paid to have his first translated version of 75 quatrains published, it probably would have been no more than a scholarly exercise. If, after publication by London bookseller Bernard Quaritch, Whitley Stokes hadn't passed by Quaritch's bookshop and plucked a copy from the "penny box", FitzGerald's book would have died on Picadilly Street. If Whitley Stokes, well-known as a Celtic scholar, had not given a copy of FitzGerald's Rubaiyat to his friend Dante Rossetti on the 10th of July, 1861, then the translation would not have been introduced to the influential literati of the day. From Rossetti to Charles Swinburne to George Meredith to William Morris to Edward Burne-Jones to John Ruskin to the Brownings and on and on, even to America, these romantic verses kept gaining in popularity, necessitating more and more editions to be printed. Today, no one really knows how many hundreds of editions have been printed from FitzGerald's various translations alone, not to mention other English and foreign translations.

am finishing up book and teaching chores this month and look forward to resuming the thread soon.

any rubai to study whose English translation might stand room for improvement? or which haven't been translated at all?


shall we continue on to other Persian forms?

I am so grateful.


Meanwhile, I have added a new post to the China Connection topic.

qodahafiz

Gary,

First of all thank you so much for the history of Fitzgerald translations of Khayyam, That was so interesting. These days I am mostly engaged by other forms of Persian Poems(mostly Ghazal) which are much more complex than Rubayat. I have a special gift and surprise for you. Bidel Dehlavi(Abdul Qader Bedil). Even in Iran he is not that much famous as he is not originally Iranian (he was born in Afghanistan and lived in India!). As you are interested in Buddhism and as there are few attempts by Westerns to introduce or translate his fantastic poems I think this new world would be so motivating for both of us. The only point is that My English is not that much good and it will take some time for me to prepare some topics and descriptions of his Rubai’s and Ghazals but I am quite sure that it will be an extraordinary view in front of us.

Hamed

1- Who was Bedil?

Abul Ma'āni Mirzā Abdul-Qāder Bedil or Mawlānā Abul Ma'āni Abdul Qader Bedil also Bidel Dehlavi (1642–1720) (Persian: مولانا ابوالمعانی عبدالقادر بیدل) was a famous Persian poet and Sufi born in Azimabad (present day Patna, India); his family was from Badakhshan (present day Afghanistan). According to some other sources, he was born in Khwaja Rawash, an area of Kabul province in today's Afghanistan.
He mostly wrote Ghazal and Rubayee (quatrain) in Persian. He is considered as one of the prominent poets of Indian School of Poetry in Persian literature, and owns his unique Style in it. Both Mirza Ghalib and Iqbal-e Lahori were influenced by him. His books include Telesm-e Hairat (طلسم حيرت), Toor e Ma'refat (طور معرفت), Chahār Unsur (چهار عنصر) and Ruqa'āt (رقعات).
Possibly as a result of being brought up in such a mixed religious environment, Bedil had considerably more tolerant views than his poetic contemporaries. He preferred free thought to accepting the established beliefs of his time, siding with the common people and rejecting the clergy who he often saw as corrupt.
Upon his emergence as a poet, Bedil gained recognition throughout the Iranian cultural continent. Since late 18th century his poetry gradually lost its position among Iranians while it has been much welcomed in Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Pakistan. Bedil came back to prominence in Iran in 1980s. Literary critics Mohammad-Reza Shafiei-Kadkani and Shams Langrudi were instrumental in Bidel's re-emergence in Iran. Iran also sponsored two international conferences on Bedil.
The Indian school of Persian poetry and especially Bedil's poetry is criticised for its complex and implicit meanings, however, it is much welcomed in Afghanistan rather than other Persian countries. The main reason could be the familiarity of Bedil's linguistic style and expressions among the Persian-speaking Tajiks[citation needed]. In Afghanistan, a unique school in poetry studying is dedicated to Bedil's poetry called Bedil Shināsī (Bedil studies) and those who have studied his poetry are called Bedil Shinās (Bedil expert). His poetry plays a major role in Afghan classical music as well. Many Afghan classical musicians, i.e. Mohammad Hussain Sarahang, have sung plenty of Bedil's ghazals.
His grave, called Bagh-e-Bedil (Garden of Bedil) is situated at Mathura Road in Delhi. Ustaad Sayed Mohammad Daoud Al'Hossaini, an Afghan Bedil expert, arguably showed that seven months after his funeral, Bedil's body was brought back by friends and relatives from Delhi to Khwaja Rawash in Kabul, where the relatives of Barlas-e Tshaghatai lived. The grave is also called Bagh-e-Bedil (Garden of Bedil). Sallahouddin-e Saljouqi proves this thesis on p.87 of his book "Naqd-e Bedil", that Bedil's grave does not exist in Delhi, but in Khwaja Rawash
Ref.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul-Qader...

2-Lets taste Ghazaliyat(Ghazals) of Bidel ...

I opened a new topic for Ghazaliyat and Rubaiyat of Bedil

dear Bedil Shinās,

I'm touched by your kindness; as always.

like i say, i'm still unburrowing [not out yet] but will carry a print=out of this as i travel [my only time for reading] ... this and any else.

A ghazal, couplet-by-couplet: that's a good idea.

I'm familiar with Ghalib, of course; as I'd already mentioned.

Bedil's Buddhism may or may not be evident, we'll see, altho' I appreciate your thinking of my own orientation ... to clarify that, to me, the way of the Buddha reflects universality, with diversity; such as Buddhist King Ashoka welcoming ALL faiths and creeds to practice under his reign. [Even Buddhism has historically been susceptible to mis-taking itsself as being the Only One True Answer.] My limited knowledge suspects the historical context here is one of diversity ... a cross-roads of ideas as well as goods ... and I'm all for free flow of ideas as well as merchandise. If you know Kabir's poetry, we may find a similar eclectic mix.

By the way, I've posted something to the Chinese/Persian link ... with some matters remaining to be settled, clarified, commented upon...

thanks: for all.

qodahafiz

Like Khayyam, Bedil has his own philosophy which has been influenced by Buddhism , Soofism and generally the environment he has faced but so different from classical definitions of them. The point is that his poems are like a mirror in which we will find our own passions and interests. Hafiz Ghazaliyat are the best example of mirror verses, he is at the top of Persian poetry.