The problem of pain is a serious problem when it comes to "Innocent" animals suffering. This outlook on life that the flesh is sinful works well to a christian that is forgiven of his worldly desires, but to someone who doesn't subscribe to this world view, it poses a huge problem. The idea that before the fall the lion and the lamb lay together in the garden is absurd from a biological perspective. A lion has a digestive system that processes meat. I have never heard much about how this could be. Did god suddenly zap all the predictor's tummies to now be "evil" predators? So, if by believing that all sin comes from our desires, this becomes counter intuitive when we look at it from the point of view of survival. Our systems use pain and desires to get us to survive and reproduce. If we were supposed to be happy and content always, then I doubt we would have survived as a species.
So, my question to all the christians out there is, if we hadn't sinned in the garden, what would our bodies have been like? would we have pain? It's seems that pain has a lot of value, we pull away a burnt hand even before we are conscience of the pain. Would our bodies have been perfect, and if so, how?

ouch. i wonder if this guy has really spent ANY time with people in his life, cause i don't know how people can put up with that shit..... looks like he's gone too now. or at least he's said his goodbyes. lol, how many is that now that have run?

I think he ran away because of a difference in the definition of the word debate:

While we used:


"...a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal"

Mohit used:


"... received knowledge from Mohit the Englightened (as proven by BestWebBuy.com ranking for book of bad poetry). If you don't agree you are stupid."


The other day I had the entertaining privilege of listening to two Mohits', arguing why the Koran is not a collection of made up stories, while the New Testament is (and visa-versa). No physical violence, but a lot of yelling. This was after attending a lecture from a distinguished philosopher.

His topic? "The Myth of Religious Wars"

I think Mohit ran away because he realized how ridiulous he was being. At least, I hope that's why he ran away.

1,000,000-plus, the current trends indicate total sales will most likely be under 40.

I have my doubts Mohit has even sold that many copies.

Before I submitted the example of Robert Frost as a better poet than Mohit, I considered Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes (different poems though).

That's funny. I was going to use the same Robert Frost poem you used.

This question about book ranking intrigued me, so I did some web research and found the following analysis (may not be accurate):

If the book’s average ranking is:
2,000,000-plus, then perhaps a single inventory/consignment copy has been ordered.

1,000,000-plus, the current trends indicate total sales will most likely be under 40.

100,00-plus, then current trends indicate total sales will most likely be under 200.

10,000-plus, you can estimate between 1 – 10 copies are being sold per week.

1,000-plus, you can estimate between 10 – 100 copies are being sold per week.

100-plus, you can estimate between 100 – 200 copies are being sold per week.

10-plus, you can estimate between 200 – 1000 copies are being sold per week.

In the top 10, you can estimate over 1,000 copies are per week

Of course what you really want to know is not the relative sales rank, but how many copies of a book have actually been sold, compared to the average number of copies a book sells.

People love to cling to statistics that support their argument, even if they are not relevant to the argument.

Amazon's sales rank for Ponder Awhile: #1,372,697
Amazon's sales rank for Hamlet: #2,526
Amazon's lowest ranked Shakespeare book: #86,572

Sir John Gielgud's Ages of Man is out of print; the only purchase option is a used audio cassett or download. So it's not really surprising his book would have a higher sales rate than an audio tape that's no longer produced.

I'm also curious as to how they determine their bestsellers, considering they don't actually sell anything.

This group-think is a little scary. Before I submitted the example of Robert Frost as a better poet than Mohit, I considered Emily Dickinson and Langston Hughes (different poems though).

To everyone in this group besides Mohit:

I think Mohit, for me, has officially become the most deluded religious person I have ever encountered. Not only because of his religious convictions, but because of his misplaced self confidence. He actually believes, as evidenced through his own post, that his poem Religions is the best poem ever written.

If that does not reek of insanity and delusion, I seriously do not know what does.

It took me a few years to put the poem Religions together but you will not understand ,so you will take the shortcut and mock it.

It isn't that I don't understand it. It's that it isn't any good. The writing style is immature and shows no talent.

Show me one poem written by any poet better than the poem Religions.

Harlem: A Dream Deferred
By Langston Hughes

What happens to a dream deferred?

Does it dry up
Like a raisin in the sun?

Or fester like a sore--
And then run?

Does it stink like rotten meat?

Or crust and sugar over--
Like a syrupy sweet?

Maybe it just sags
Like a heavy load.

Or does it explode?


Really I could type just about any poem ever written as your poem is ridiculously childish.

Roses are red.
Violets are blue.
You think you're good at poetry,
But no one else does too.

I mean, this drivel is better than your drivel and I typed it up in two seconds.

It took me a few years to put the poem Religions together

That is pathetic.

Why don't you write a book as that is considered difficult and not putting up a paragraph on some site.You cannot,its simple.

I am not the one claiming that my writings are better than the writings of William Shakespeare. You are. I never claimed I could write a great book. You are the one who claimed you already did. And after reading a few excerpts, it is clear that you didn't.

If I wanted to write a bunch of crappy poems about nonsense and then pay to have it published, I could do that. However, just because I did that, it wouldn't mean I was a talented poet. Just because you did that, doesn't mean you are a talented poet.

"Show me one poem written by any poet better than the poem Religions"


SOME keep the Sabbath going to church;
I keep it staying at home,
With a bobolink for a chorister,
And an orchard for a dome.

Some keep the Sabbath in surplice;
I just wear my wings,
And instead of tolling the bell for church,
Our little sexton sings.

God preaches,—a noted clergyman,—
And the sermon is never long;
So instead of getting to heaven at last,
I ’m going all along!

- Emily Dickinson

"Show me one poem written by any poet better than the poem Religions"


Two roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth.

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same.

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.


-- Robert Frost

nathan wrote: "The Moth dangling on the ceiling,
I wonder what she is feeling.

Honestly, if any of my 10th grade students turned in a poem that was anything like the poems you wrote (Death, Mom, Religions, Th..."

Show me one poem written by any poet better than the poem Religions.Wonder why some English professors praise my work ,thank god you are not ranking books.Stick to this group.It took me a few years to put the poem Religions together but you will not understand ,so you will take the shortcut and mock it.Chop his head and grow tall doesn't really work.Why don't you write a book as that is considered difficult and not putting up a paragraph on some site.You cannot,its simple.

nathan wrote: "God they are different rankings,look at poetry on Best Book Buys.Why are you so abusive?How many times do I need to put up the link?

How about one time you put up a link that shows a website tha..."

You guys are jokers.

Nate,

Let me save Mohit the trouble. You aren't ranked #2 on some website no one's ever heard of! How dare you mock the sages! You aren't enlightened! You are creator all is you! Something something light! You're just jealous! You must meditate!

How'd I do? Was that a good imitation? Was it an exaggeration? Could it use some more truncation? Was there too much punctuation? If it caused you consternation, you should do some meditation; not just for the relaxation, but to find your soul's salvation.

The Moth dangling on the ceiling,
I wonder what she is feeling.

Honestly, if any of my 10th grade students turned in a poem that was anything like the poems you wrote (Death, Mom, Religions, The Ultimate Plan, or Truth), I might pass them. Although it would be questionable because I would view their skill as rudimentary, immature and underdeveloped. I would also look at the poems and think that they took only a few minutes putting them together, so I would have a hard time giving them credit for effort.

Better than Shakespeare? Ummm....I think we know the answer to that. The poems aren't even better than the rhymes above that Dan, R.C. or I threw together in a few minutes.

Mohit got upset when Dan called Jesus dumb
So on the tip of his nose Mohit placed his thumb.
He declared that what Dan thought of Jesus, Mohit thought of Dan.
It's just so unfortunate that Mohit is Mohit's only fan.

Good rhymes, Dan, I will try a few:

Isn't is odd /that those
Who communicate with God
Always receive
A different story / of the way
To find God's true Glory

The truth, to a prophet
Must always implied
Because facts, when proven wrong
Are not so easily denied.

Evidence of God
Is easy to obtain
It merely requires one
Cease using the brain.

Jesus died upon the cross
To give weight to his advice
But technology simplifies martyrdom
A Google ranking will now suffice

Mohit,

Wiktionary has a good definition of free will: The ability to choose one's actions, or determine what reasons are acceptable motivation for actions.

In Ramana Maharishi's example, the cow can choose to go wherever he wants, he is just limited in his ability to follow through on his decision, as are all beings with free will (except for, supposedly, God).

Everything suffers humans and animals,not only the Tasmanian Devil.There are many more important questions in life, don't give this too much importance.

My question was why do innocent beings suffer. The Tasmanian Devil is just an example of an innocent being that suffers. You "answered" the question by telling me to ignore it. I'll assume that this means you are unable to answer the question.

I don't care if you are a "highly ranked" religious philosopher. I could post my college transcripts to show you how "highly intelligent" I am, but I do not, because it would be both pointless and narcissistic.

I said that Jesus was stupid as a joke. The point was that I do not revere self-professed sages just because they are capable of calling themselves sages.

Maybe you have trouble understanding what we say because we speak in complete sentences rather than verse. So, here are some poems:

Free will means it's up to you,
What it is you want to do.

That God should cause all creatures pain
Is something you can not explain.
To cause such pain with no good reason
Can only be an act of treason.

Religious philosophy wastes our time,
Doubly so when it comes in rhyme.

Mohit said:

"I am highly ranked religious philosopher which you are not. "

Actually Mohit, BestWebBuys is not considered an authority on the competence of religious philosophers, any more than American Idol is considered an authority on musical talent.

Peer reviewed publishing, tied to one's ability to obtain grants/income to support research into one's theories is how the ranking of religious philosophers is done.

The fact you think a commercial web site has some value in determining whose ideas are respected speaks volumes.

The mockery you are receiving is well earned. You are acting like a clown.

I am highly ranked religious philosopher which you are not.

I would rather be a highly ranked garbage collector than a highly ranked religious philosopher. At least collecting garbage is a job that accomplishes something.

God they are different rankings,look at poetry on Best Book Buys.Why are you so abusive?How many times do I need to put up the link?

How about one time you put up a link that shows a website that doesn't look like it was cobbled together by a 5th grader. The website is a joke, as is your "poetry."

Why am I abusive? because I have a strong distaste for people who can't use their brains. You fall into this category.

Dan wrote: "You will need to be evolved to understand my words, have patience with time you will.

No I don't. I understand your words perfectly well. You claim to be enlightened, and when we aren't impress..."

I was answering your question and when you mocked me I showed you my ranking to let you know that I am highly ranked religious philosopher which you are not.
.Everything suffers humans and animals,not only the Tasmanian Devil.There are many more important questions in life, don't give this too much importance.

The Moth dangling on the ceiling,
I wonder what she is feeling.

You are not the only person in the world with such thoughts.
Sorry but if you think Jesus is stupid then I think you are stupid.
Looks like your group is mostly for everyone except religious -philosophers.Change the name to only atheists welcome.

Also please give me a better definition of free will and destiny than Ramana Maharishi has since you ridiculed it.

nathan wrote: "Top 100 recommended Religion and Spirituality

You're a total moron. Your evidence is that you are ranked high on religion and spirituality lists. How the hell would Shakespeare ever appear on ..."

God they are different rankings,look at poetry on Best Book Buys.Why are you so abusive?How many times do I need to put up the link?

You will need to be evolved to understand my words, have patience with time you will.

No I don't. I understand your words perfectly well. You claim to be enlightened, and when we aren't impressed by this, you tell us that we are stupid, ignorant, unevolved and unenlightened. And then you brag about how highly-ranked your book of poetry is on some obscure websites, as if this fact will validate everything you say. This is the extent of your argument. Beyond that, you have said nothing. You do not answer questions, you do not back up your claims with evidence or logic, you just call us stupid and expect us to be impressed by the fact that you are capable of calling us stupid.

Top 100 recommended Religion and Spirituality

You're a total moron. Your evidence is that you are ranked high on religion and spirituality lists. How the hell would Shakespeare ever appear on this list in the first place?

Wow, you wrote "better" religion and spirituality books than Shakespeare did? No kidding. He wrote plays. If I wrote a sentence about religion or spiritiuality on a piece of paper, so would I since this wasn't an area Shakespeare wrote about.

Your logic is as paltry as your writing skills.

R.C. wrote: "
Nathan, RC and I are not going to get together to write a book because we have other sources of self-worth besides the Internet rankings of our poetry.


I also would be personally embarrassed to ..."


You will need to be evolved to understand my words, have patience with time you will.

nathan wrote: "Still been ranked over Shakespeare.

I assume you mean Cletus Shakespeare and not William Shakespeare. It's funny, I googled your "more important than William Shakespeare" name and I came up wit..."

Look at the rankings on Best Book Buys.
heres the link
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Poetry-books....
And on ebookmall
http://www.ebookmall.com/adobe-reader/gr...
Top 100 recommended Religion and Spirituality
52.Ponder Awhile
These libraries must be crazy to rank me so highly,they should be listening to no believers like you .Imagine religious poetry and philosophy being judged by people who dont believe and have no knowledge of God ,they wont understand anything in the book.

Dan wrote: "Mohit,

If you are a better writer than Shakespeare I will eat a box of light bulbs. Not even incandescents but compact fluorescents with mercury in them.

Nathan, RC and I are not going to get to..."

What is impossible for you is possible for me.Get enlightened then you will understand the power of God.Please dont do something ridiculous as eating glass with mercury just because my work has been ranked over Shakespeares.God works through me so expect miracles to happen.This is a religious forum being ranked at 2 in Religious -philosophy doesnt mean anything to you .Obviously not.

Still been ranked over Shakespeare.

I assume you mean Cletus Shakespeare and not William Shakespeare. It's funny, I googled your "more important than William Shakespeare" name and I came up with this webiste:

http://www.poemhunter.com/mohit-misra/

You have such terrific poetry that not even one person found your poetry interesting enough to post a comment. Wow, that really says something. I googled William Shakespeare and the response was not at all similar.

I can only assume that the individuals that rated you above Shakespeare are your mom, your pet chinchilla, and your robot girlfriend. That isn't really a fair comparison to all the people who have read real authors like Billy Shakespeare.

However, I would absolutely love the link that shows you have been rated above Shakespeare. That would be terrific if you could supply it.

Nathan, RC and I are not going to get together to write a book because we have other sources of self-worth besides the Internet rankings of our poetry.


I also would be personally embarrassed to promote my work based only on the reviews of my personal friends.

And to give Mohit a fair shake as a poet, you can read excerpts on line at Amazon. You can draw your own conclusions as to his talent.

Mohit,

If you are a better writer than Shakespeare I will eat a box of light bulbs. Not even incandescents but compact fluorescents with mercury in them.

Nathan, RC and I are not going to get together to write a book because we have other sources of self-worth besides the Internet rankings of our poetry. Is this the tactic you take in every argument? Instead of making any kind of coherent argument, you just brag about how highly ranked your book is on bestwebbuys.com? In case you were wondering, we don't care. We are not impressed. Say something that makes sense.

Still been ranked over Shakespeare.Nathan, Dan, RC,
get together write a book and try getting ranked over Shakespeare.First try dreaming of it.

Stephen,

This guy appears serious believe it or not. He has even written (and self published) books on the subject.

Nathan, Dan, RC,

I think this guy is winding you up for a laugh!

Jealous. Nothing else ,your ego is hurting.

Ha ha. I hope you're joking.

You have a hard time forming coherent sentences. I am not exactly jealous of you throwing a bunch of nonsense together, paying for it to be published and then calling it a "book."

R.C. wrote: "Mohit --

Could you give us a taste of your knowledge then -- give us one not commonly known bit of wisdom that is objectively true? (meaning the same result is obtained by all observers using the ..."

Poetry from a collection of 69,298 books
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Poetry-books....
5.Ponder Awhile Mohit.K.Misra
6. The Riverside Chaucer Geoffry Chaucer
17. Sir John Gielgud's Ages of Man William shakespeare


Philsophy-Religious from a collection of 4,843 books
http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Philosophy-Re...
2.Ponder Awhile- Mohit.K.Misra
3. The Complete Mystical Works of Meister Eckhart
4. Philosophy of Religion: An Anthology
by Louis P. Pojman, Michael Rea
9. A Secular Age
by Charles Taylor

Dan wrote: "Like I said before this dimension is one of suffering,this is a temporary place a school for our souls.We are not in heaven

Yes, I know what you said, over and over. We suffer so that our souls ..."

So write a books and share your god knowledge.
I dont know why a Tasmanian devil should suffer.What I know is god exists and that is a dimension of no pain.
If you want to learn about god and enlightenment I can teach you.

Like I said before this dimension is one of suffering,this is a temporary place a school for our souls.We are not in heaven

Yes, I know what you said, over and over. We suffer so that our souls might go to school. But why must a Tasmanian Devil suffer? This is the question that you keep ignoring.

He has described free will so superbly and simply that a child can understand.

Or maybe his gibberish is so nonsensical that only a child would fail to recognize it as such.

But when you tell me that I am trying to be wise then you need to understand that I am wise, have proved it with my work.

You haven't proven it to us. You have said nothing wise. If your are wise, your wisdom should be self-evident; you should not have to tell us that you are wise.

Now you have a problem that I have this knowledge and you don't.

I have no problem. I have no desire to ever have this "knowledge." I'm happier without it.

Jealous. Nothing else ,your ego is hurting.

I strongly doubt that any of us are jealous of you.

Mohit --

Could you give us a taste of your knowledge then -- give us one not commonly known bit of wisdom that is objectively true? (meaning the same result is obtained by all observers using the same protocol, within a predetermined statistical variation)

nathan wrote: "Wow, Mohit has a book. If his book is as informative and intelligent as his posts have been, I would rather hang myself than read it.

I guess if a person pays enough money, someone will publish..."

Jealous. Nothing else ,your ego is hurting.

Dan wrote: "RC,

I find it amusing that Mohit thinks that his own inability to ever articulate a point or answer a question speaks to our ignorance and stupidity. Somewhere along the line he decided that bein..."

I joined in this debate and being a poet I write and express myself in poetry- very simple.
But when you tell me that I am trying to be wise then you need to understand that I am wise, have proved it with my work.I do have knowledge of the Light.Now you have a problem that I have this knowledge and you don't.

Dan wrote: "When you were a kid the only reason your parents shouted or hit you was to correct you.The pain was needed to understand you are doing something wrong and to correct yourself.God loves you and does..."

Like I said before this dimension is one of suffering,this is a temporary place a school for our souls.We are not in heaven .We are playing this game with ourselves.

There is no flaw in Ramana Maharishis reasoning. He has described free will so superbly and simply that a child can understand.I just love the way he describes it.

Wow, Mohit has a book. If his book is as informative and intelligent as his posts have been, I would rather hang myself than read it.

I guess if a person pays enough money, someone will publish his writings.

Mohit makes more sense when ran through the borkifier

Thees pheelusuphy is tuu cumpleeceted fur yuoo su I veell seempliffy it.Vhee yuoo vere-a a keed zee oonly reesun yuoor perents shuooted oor heet yuoo ves tu currect yuoo.Zee peeen ves needed tu understund yuoo ere-a dueeng sumetheeng vrung und tu currect yuoorselff.Gud lufes yuoo und duesn't hete-a yuoo boot he-a needs tu teech yuoo veet peeen und lufe-a. Bork Bork Bork!

You need to meditate and experience the light for yourself to understand what I am talking about,till then it will be a myth or fairy tale for you.

As Dan stated, you have no ability to articulate an actual point. This is becoming ridiculous.

You have not even stated what it is that I will think is a fairy tale. What is the point you are trying to make exactly?

I think a good measure of intelligence is the ability or inability of a person to explain his view. You have not shown us intelligence yet. Please do.

RC,

I find it amusing that Mohit thinks that his own inability to ever articulate a point or answer a question speaks to our ignorance and stupidity. Somewhere along the line he decided that being willfully obtuse is the same as being intelligent and thoughtful.

I think he thought he'd come in here, drop a few one-liners about light and supersouls, and our minds would be blown, and we would buy his book. Since this hasn't happened, we must be idiots, right? And now he's actually thrown down and challenged us to a poetry-hawking battle! Until eastern religion gets its own Kirk Cameron, Mohit will have to do.