This is an extension of a topic that began in the Jesus Lovers group. What is the point of prayer?

Some reasonable (within the context of believing there is a God) explanations have been offered: prayer is a way to communicate with God, etc. But the question still remains: why pray to ask for things?

I'll begin with some basic assumptions that it seems Christians make. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of these:

1. God has a plan.
2. Everything that happens is a part of God's plan.
3. Sometimes when you pray and ask for something, God doesn't answer your prayer in the way you'd hoped (i.e. give you the thing you asked for).
4. Sometimes, things you want to happen will happen even if you haven't prayed for them. (I know this is true because sometimes good things happen to me, even though I haven't prayed in over a decade.)

With this in mind, I have a few specific questions:

a. If God is going to carry out his plan regardless, what is the point of asking for something that will or will not happen anyway, since it either is or isn't part of God's plan already?

b. Do you think that by praying or not praying, you will cause God to change his plan?

c. Assuming that there is a reason to ask for things (e.g. your answer to question b is "yes"), do you have any evidence that this type of prayer works? Why do people sometimes not get what they ask for? Why do people who don't pray sometimes get what they want?

d. If you believe that God answers our prayers in "mysterious ways," and does what's ultimately best for us, do you honestly believe this is true? Do you believe that it's ultimately best for you that the relative you pray for doesn't recover from his disease, or that, if an atheist's relative does recover, it would have been best for that atheist to have the relative die? Also, why would God, if he is so loving, not just do whatever's best for you whether or not you pray for it?

As I write this, there are not yet any Christian members of this group, but maybe by starting a few threads we can pique their interest enough that they'll join.

For those who believe in the power of prayer, how do you explain the results of the largest, most controlled study ever done? (2006)

"Patients who received prayers were marginally more likely to develop complications (52.5 to 50.9 percent) and substantially more likely to develop major complications (18.0 to 13.4 percent) than patients who received none."

Hey Dan,

Just wanted to share some of my views on praying, thought it looks like the type of praying we are talking about here is praying for things we want.

With your point 'a' I think this comes down to your belief in fate or not. I believe that the decisions we make are for the here and now and that we make history every moment we live. A lot of people just cruise by in life on the assumption that all that will happen will and there is only one way things can turn out.

So I believe that the world and God present me with challenges everyday and it's up to me to decide how to face them. I do also believe that when we pray for things we don't change God, I don't think that I can give him a good argument which makes him do things for me. Rather what happens is when I pray I deepen my desire for things and increase my faith in that which is not seen. By doing so I can bring things into reality through what I believe. We are told that by faith we can do these things.

This sort of faith however is not limited to Christians alone, I have heard of a Japanese religion called 'Soka Gakki' which has successfully healed cancer patients. We believe that this is possible because these people can influence the world in a similar way that we can although not through God but through Satan.

For 'b' I think that God knows all and yes he has a plan for us. So I think that God will know what is going to happen no matter what we choose and I know that often we don't choose the path which God had hoped we chose but that is the way things work out if we are to have free will.

For 'c' we can get what we want even if we don't pray for it assuming we take the proper Earthly paths. The way I see it, there are two ways to get things, Earning them in society or praying for them. The praying manipulates the Earthly way to bring it into reality.

For 'd' Yes I do, He can over-ride our prayers at times to give us something that he deems more beneficial for us. Other times he gives us what we asked for even if it's not best and we can learn a lesson from these times. A friend of mine for Church was told she couldn't have children and tried for 8 years, then she prayed for patience and got a child with ADHD. Perhaps not the way she intended to have paitience.

I know that it's really hard for people when they pray for someone who is ill and they do not recover but remember that we can't live forever in this world. No matter what you believe one day our time will be up. A lady from our Church died from Cancer a year back and despite all the Church praying for her we could not save her, but she was amongst other cancer patients suffering with them and sharing the good news of God to them.

I think there are cases like this where there are certain diseases that you simply cannot understand the gravity of the situation until you are in it. I think that she would not have been able to effectively minister to them without being able to relate to them in this way. Her husband having seen her go through this is now a Chaplain at the cancer ward and he has talked to a lot of people who consider what life is all about in their final days.

That does not mean that I think God gave her cancer or that I am happy this has happened to her and her husband. I do think that God used her where she was and turned a bad situation into a better situation. The type of cancer she had would have made her life very difficult if it had stretched out her life.

In response to the final sentence Also, why would God, if he is so loving, not just do whatever's best for you whether or not you pray for it I would like to say God never promised Christians that life would be easy. He told us he'd be there to help us through the hard times. We know that through suffering we develop perseverance and character. So he allows us to endure the trials of this world so that we may have a stronger character.

I'd also like to point out that this is what I believe as best as I can express it and perhaps other Christians would disagree with me. I know one point I and other Christians disagree on is whether if I needed a car I could pray for a sports car or a family car. I believe that we are entitled to ask for nice things not just the bare minimum for our requirements as long as we don't let these things corrupt us.

Cheers all.

Hello Everyone,

I am a Christian so I want to say what's up to Adam. I am glad that you are here. I have been in and out reading a lot of post and I wanted to respond to this one before I head to Church.

I would also like to say hi to all those that are not Christian. I would like to thank you for the opportunity to discuss what I believe and look forward to great discussions that are constructive.

a. This is a large theological debate that has been going on in the Christian communtiy. There are one side of Christians that believe that God will always perform His will and that prayer is to Thank, Praise, and worhsip Him...not to ask for things because He is going to do what He wants to do anyway. There are another set of Christians that believe differently. They believe that God gave dominion (King of the Earth) to Adam (God called both Adam and Eve, Adam btw) They in turn sinned and became a slave to sin. Giving shared power to govern the Earth to the father of sin (Satan). So although God has the power to do whatever he wants, he is bond by His word. Thus, praying allows God legal access to interact with this world. These differences in views is the reason why I started the orginal thread in the Jesus Lovers forum.

b. I do not think that God would change his ultimate plan. The details of his plan...maybe.

c. I do not have evidence for you. I have it for me. There is nothing that I can do, to make you accept personal testamony.

c2. There are many reasons why people do not get what they are prayer for. I will only give a couple. What they are prayer for would hurt them. They do not have a heart toward God. They do not have the faith to believe what they ask for. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...) It goes against God's ultimate Plan.

c3 God's grace and love. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?sea...) Also, there is a type of prayer called intercession. This prayer is really for a Christian to prayer for someone else and stand inbetween that person and judgement. It is impossible to know if there was someone praying for them at any giving time.

d. This answer is really in my other answers. Plus I do agree with Adam, that the Lord never promised us an easy life.

It is very clear from the answers so far that the act of prayer is an appeal for "special status" in the universe.

Since none is ever given, then why do people continue to pray? Or more interestingly, why do they pretend their prayers have the power to be answered?

Leaving aside for the moment the explanation that people pretend that prayer works because they are delusional (due to mental illness), the most common reason people lie to themselves is as a rationalization for behaviors that are not easy to justify otherwise.

So,just like the made up excuses we all give when our own failings deny us happiness, prayer is a way of shifting responsibility, in this case to an invisible entity. Since this entity chooses which prayers to answer and which ones not to, we can avoid personal responsibility for our actions.

This is of course a cop out, and works no better than appeasing the volcano gods by throwing in a virgin girl. To quote Shakespeare:

"The Fault, Dear Brutus, lies not in our stars, but in ourselves"

I also note in the responses some very lame rationalizations for the problem of evil. This has has been discussed in other threads, and is really an insurmountable paradox for the believer.

Any justification for prayer that does not fully address this issue raises more issues than it resolves.

If you ask me a yes or no question. No is still a valid answer. Therefore, how can you say that some prayers are not answered? All prayer is answered, it just may not be the answer that you would like. Also, if God did everything that we prayed for...would He be God? If He is suject to us, then we would be His God, and not the other way around. Also, the question is about prayer, if you have a question about why evil exist, then that is a different question and it should be stated as a question.

All prayer is answered, it just may not be the answer that you would like.

Then why pray for something? Whatever God's plan is will happen anyway, so you praying that your mother survive an operation, for example, is pointless. If her surviving is part of his plan, she survives. If it is not, she doesn't.

You admit God will not subject himself to your will, so why do your requests matter at all?

My son is not to the point that he can talk, but he has a preference concerning certain things. If he wants a something in my hand, like a knife. I would not give it to him. If he wants a toy, I may or may not give it to him depending on a lot of factors. If he never ask for anything...he may get nothing...or I may just give him a toy because I want him to have it. God is our Heavenly Father, therefore it is the same principle.

"All prayer is answered"

That is a pretty sweeping statement. Can you show me even one prayer that has ever been answered?

Any two-bit phony psychic can claim their predictions are true by making the prediction after the event has happened.

You need to show a specific prayer (recorded in advance) for an unlikely circumstance came true for your claim to have any weight.

"If he never ask for anything...he may get nothing."

So if the infant does not ask for food or a diaper change he would not get it?

Why is God not as knowing as a human father?

My son is not to the point that he can talk, but he has a preference concerning certain things. If he wants a something in my hand, like a knife. I would not give it to him. If he wants a toy, I may or may not give it to him depending on a lot of factors. If he never ask for anything...he may get nothing...or I may just give him a toy because I want him to have it. God is our Heavenly Father, therefore it is the same principle.

This is an awful analogy. It isn't the same thing at all. Your son asks you for things and you respond. You respond in one way or another because you did not previously know what your son did or did not desire.

God, on the other hand, knows already what you desire and what you will desire 50 years down the road.

I imagine that you have not put a master plan together for your son's life. You have not said, "My son will do this which will lead to that, and then all of these things he does will reach my final end goal in the year 2077 for the purpose of his life."

God, on the other hand, already has a plan. He isn't going to change it for you no matter what. He can't. If he could, then it would already have been part of the master plan. Your son can change your plan. If you planned on him drinking milk with dinner but he asks you for juice, he may change your mind. However, if your son having milk with dinner was part of a huge master plan, then you wouldn't give him juice.

If your son knew that everything was already laid out in advance via the master plan, it would be ridiculous of him to ask for anything.
It would be ridiculous because whatever will happen has already been put into place. Asking for things won't change anything.

Nathan --

This is nearing the point were the theists become embarrassed by their own system of logic and leave the discussion.

You are getting much too good at this.

Nathan,

Please re-read my post. The first one is really good and talks about the two thought processes. Plus not everyone follows God's plan for thier life. I will give you a good example...it is not in God's plan to have people that do not believe in Him...and here we are.

The Father and Son example is good. I do have a plan for my son, however if I had the ability to stop him from making mistakes...how would he mature? In life, you learn from other peoples mistakes, or you make your own.

If god has an end result in mind for his master plan, as many religious people claim he does, then he must also have a map on how to get there.

Therefore, whatever anyone does must always be part of his plan.

If he doesn't have a master plan, then life is as "pointless" for christians as it is for atheists.

Of course, I don't actually think life is pointless...I am just pointing out that christians say if we aren't part of some bigger picture, there is no point to life.

Eric said:
"however if I had the ability to stop him from making mistakes...how would he mature?"

What if his mistake was driving drunk as a teenager and he killed a pedestrian? Would you stop this if you could? Or would you merely say the pedestrian death is necessary for your child to mature.

This appears to be a variation on the argument for God allowing free will, but as been pointed out many times, this merely harms the innocent and does not stand up to scrutiny.

Eric,

This is a large theological debate that has been going on in the Christian communtiy.

Well, it's good to see that at least some members of the church have noticed the logical problems of prayer. In this context, it seems like the most logically defensible rationalization for prayer is that you're hedging your bets. You hope that God has a plan and that everything happens for a reason, etc., but just in case there is no plan and God can be influenced, you'll ask for some stuff.

It would be nice if some Christians would admit to this. Also, it would be nice if, while admitting to not knowing much about God but instead guessing at it, Christians would also stop claiming to know so many other details of God, his will, heaven, hell, etc., with such specificity.

My son is not to the point that he can talk, but he has a preference concerning certain things. If he wants a something in my hand, like a knife. I would not give it to him.

This is a disingenuous argument and something of a cop out. People often make the claim that God doesn't answer a prayer (in the affirmative, at least) if the prayer isn't in the person's best interest. But you create a false dichotomy here: either people ask for bad things (a knife) and God denies them, or they ask for good things, and God grants their wishes. It would not be very hard to go into any church in America and find two people with pretty similar lives, pretty similar levels of sin, etc., who are both praying for approximately the same thing (e.g. to have Uncle Bob survive his surgery), and for only one of these prayers to be answered. How is it possible that having Uncle Bob survive was only good for one of these people? Similarly, do you seriously contend that people never pray for bad things - to not get caught cheating on their spouses, to get away with driving drunk, etc. - and not achieve success? Did God answer these prayers even though they were for bad things? Or is he unable to affect the outcome?

It seems to me that when things don't go their way, people comfort themselves by saying that it's out of their hands, God has a plan, everything happens for a reason, and so on. But when things do go their way, people like to take credit for it. Sure, they thank and praise and give credit to God, but they also take credit themselves, because they'll claim that the good thing happened (or, more "accurately," God granted the good thing) because they prayed for it. This seems very self-serving. I don't ever hear people say, "Well, I prayed for it, but my prayers don't matter. God has a plan and I just feel lucky that this aspect of his plan worked out for me." Nor do I hear people say, "I prayed for it and I didn't get it. I must be a sinner, or not very good at praying, or God must not like me or must be a pretty mean dude." The only things I ever hear are a.) bad thing: "God has a plan;" or, b.) good thing: "My prayer was answered!"

it is not in God's plan to have people that do not believe in Him...and here we are.

How do you know this is not part of God's plan? Have you seen the plan? In response to troubles in their lives, Christians will often say, "God has a plan," or, "Everything happens for a reason." The logic here is that if something exists, it must be part of God's plan. Then you turn around and say that God planned for atheists to not exist. You are selectively applying your logic. If you contend that the occurrence of a seemingly-unfortunate event implies God's approval for that event, then you can't turn around and say that God doesn't want such and such to exist. Or maybe God doesn't want atheists to exist but somehow failed to prevent millions of us from existing. In this case, God seems pretty inept at carrying out his plan. In this light, I don't know how anyone could find any comfort in knowing that God has a plan, since it seems clear that the existence of such a plan doesn't guarantee that anything in it will ever come to pass.

I had a conversation with a pastor once about this topic. He admitted that since you can never know when or how God will act, you must always act as though God does not exist, even if you have complete faith in him.

He also admitted that science does not have this problem, and one can always depend upon scientific laws to have their expected effect, even if you are completely unaware of them (therefore without any faith).

Again, I'm way to freakin' tired to actually read any of that.
I would never pray, even if I was religious. I'm not going to worship someone unless he/she shows his/her face to me and shows exactly what he/she can do. So I'm not going to worship God unless he shows up at my front door and makes a miracle happen. And even then, I probably wouldn't worship anyone. I'm not bowing down to anyone.

It is rather interesting to say that something is not part of God's plan which currently exists. If atheists are not part of god's plan, I am more powerful than God. I have the ability to change his plan simply by not believing in him. God had a plan, and I screwed it up. Little ol' me!

Damn, I am awesome.

It seems to me that when things don't go their way, people comfort themselves by saying that it's out of their hands, God has a plan, everything happens for a reason, and so on.

Exactly Dan. I will never forget when I was growing up and my mother (who is sort of religious in that she beleives in God) said, "You know how people say 'god answers every prayer, but sometimes the answer is no'? I think that is such a huge cop out."

My mom always supported me when I pointed out the logical fallacies of religion. It was because of her and her support that I was able to shed the ridiculous beliefs altogether---even if she hasn't yet.

If atheists are not part of god's plan, I am more powerful than God


Interesting point. I read in the paper last week a 14 year old boy walked into his school and slit the throat of a fellow student with apparently no provocation. I bet if you were there you could have and would have stopped it, since you are out of God's control. The theists would have had to wait for instructions I guess.

R.C.

According to the theists---that was all part of his master plan.

But then they will say, "No. God didn't want that boy to commit that atrocity."

But then they will say, "Everything happens for a reason. We can't understand god's ways because they are higher than ours. It's all part of the plan."


Well then-----which is it!?!?!?!?!? Can't have it both ways!

It looks lime we are confusing God's plan with him knowing what will happen. It's God's plan when he intervenes. Otherwise God knows but the event was not made to happen as part of the plan.

For example if my car broke down on the way to work today I would not think it was part of God's plan. If I ended up talking to the tow truck driver about faith and he was in a bad situation then I might think it was part of God's plan.

If I got a promotion, it may or may not have been part of God's plan, but also it's possible it just happened.

Adam,

If you really believe this, then, first of all, you must disagree with this statement: "Everything happens for a reason." Is this the case? I've met few (if any) Christians who don't think that everything happens for a reason.

For example if my car broke down on the way to work today I would not think it was part of God's plan. If I ended up talking to the tow truck driver about faith and he was in a bad situation then I might think it was part of God's plan.

This sounds like confirmation bias. You presuppose God's intent (in this case, for you to talk about faith and/or help troubled people), and then you determine whether or not God has intervened in your life based on how well an event fits your preconception.

This statement also hints at potential circular reasoning. Many people claim to know that God has a plan, and their evidence for this is that such-and-such happened, often a seemingly negative thing, which led to something else positive. In your case, the fact that your car broke down and you were able to talk to someone about faith would prove to you that God has a plan. Then, the fact that God has a plan would prove to you that this event was part of the plan and not just arbitrary.

Your statement reminds me of a theme I see in a lot of Christians. Whenever something good happens, it's attributed to God; God did this. Whenever something bad happens, it is not attributed to God; God only allowed this. (And then, of course, this is meant to be taken as proof of God's goodness, because he only ever does good things.) This is a horribly selective and biased way to look at things. It certainly doesn't prove anything about God; it only proves something about your ability to be selective and biased. Also, it takes a pretty dim view of humanity, since the implication is that humans on their own can only do evil and never do good.

Hey Dan,

Perhaps I am one of the few Christians that don't agree with the statement "Everything happens for a reason."

I think that God can use any situation to his and our advantage and helps us through hard times, often we learn lessons in these times.

I agree that God does good things and not bad things, but the bad things are allowed to happen. But I don't agree that it means only humans can do evil. I know that you guys don't believe in God but I know that you are not evil. Sure there is a part in all of us that sins and that is the evil part but there is a lot of good in everyone. I think at times we don't give Satan enough credit for the evil things he does.

I agree that God does god things and not and things

I feel like there has to be a typo in there somewhere. Can you restate this?

Thanks Dan,

Looks like I need another Coffee, it should read:

I agree that God does good things and not bad things, but the bad things are allowed to happen.

Adam,

Thanks for clarifying. Outside of the bible, or a presupposition that God is good, how do you conclude that God only does good things? How do you answer the claim that by attributing good things to God and bad things to humans (or Satan), you are simply selecting evidence to support your thesis, and therefore suffering from bias?

Your concession that not everything happens for a reason is refreshing to hear from a Christian. So I'll go one further: if not everything happens for a reason, do you agree that sometimes good things might happen for no reason, or that a seemingly bad thing that leads to something good might happen for no reason, purely by chance?

I agree with Adam, but sense he is doing a better job explaining this viewpoint then I...I will let him continue.

I am going to take a different perspective on this. I think prayer can be a way of calming oneself, like meditation, but talking to yourself. I also think that chanting of any kind, such as rosaries or group repitition, tends to quiet the mind. When people say they get peace from praying, I tend to believe them. I see it as a form of relaxation. Obviously for me, prayer has nothing to do with God beings or with having questions answered.

What i find interesting is that so many self proclaimed christians pay so little regard to what the gospels say about prayer. If we take Matthew 6:5-13 and Luke 11:2-4 as a template for christian prayer, we may arrive at a couple of conclusions. First, prayer should be private, lest one become more concerned with creating an impression of piety than with actual piety. I have many times been tempted to say something after an especially long, sober, and sonorous prayer but did not for fear of the log in my eye. Second, the Lord's Prayer gives us a nice list of things it is appropriate to pray for, or reasons to pray. To offer reverence and submission to god and god's will. To ask for sustenance, or to extrapolate, a livelihood. To ask forgiveness. To ask for guidance. That's pretty much it, though presumably prayers of thanks and gratitude would be ok. Requests for a Benz, color TVs, or nights on the town curiously absent.

I agree with what Eric and Adam and Kristen have been saying. I also want to add that
I pray to thank God.
I pray to recognize Him.
And I also pray to get closer to Him.

And to answer Tom.... I think I stopped praying for material stuff when I was six. If you expect God to drop down a Benz in your front yard, you are a little confused. Material items.... there are a lot more important things. My church teaches to try to stay away from that.

And to answer Tom.... I think I stopped praying for material stuff when I was six. If you expect God to drop down a Benz in your front yard, you are a little confused. Material items.... there are a lot more important things. My church teaches to try to stay away from that.

But do you pray for god to change your situation in any way? For instance, do you pray that a relative will get better, you will do well on a test, etc.?

And to answer Tom.... I think I stopped praying for material stuff when I was six. Congratulations on your moral and theological superiority. I was in high school before i stopped asking god for "stuff."

If you expect God to drop down a Benz in your front yard, you are a little confused. Material items.... there are a lot more important things. The Benz comment was a reference to a moderately well known song by a moderately well known, deceased singer. You, and your church, seem to hold to a point of view that i would consider biblically / theologically sound. However, not all churches hold similar views. Ever hear of the Prosperity Gospel? Any event, i was merely pointing out that sometimes people who call themselves christians do things that are clearly not biblical as part of their routine religious practice.


Incidentally, i noticed you only answered the 2nd point, about what people pray for. How about the first? Jesus in the Gospels seems to say that prayer should be in private, and that people who pray publicly do so primarily to show off their piety to others. I know that once i read the verses i referenced, i steadfastly and utterly refused to pray publicly. Prior to that i would find myself planning out what i would say in a public prayer, worried about how it would sound, so i came to the conclusion that i should stick to private prayer.

Dan wrote: "This is an extension of a topic that began in the Jesus Lovers group. What is the point of prayer?

Some reasonable (within the context of believing there is a God) explanations have been offere..."

Dan you have phrased this question beautifully. I pray to God for courage to do the right thing.Prayer is like meditation and I get answers and guidance when praying or meditating.I am not a Christian but am half Hindu and half Parsee.

When I know something is right,
Then with prayer and faith I must fight,
God is behind me with all his might. :)

Then there is divine intervention.An example with Paramhansa Yoganada.He used to be lost in divine contemplation all the time and didn't study at all for his exams.He goes to his master and tells him I am not prepared I will fail and so I am not giving the exam.His master says give it I have requested god to pass you or else change the positions of the sun and moon.
Paramhansa studies in the last few days and the question paper exists of exactly what he had studied.The passing grade all along was 50 % but suddenly that year it was changed to 40% which is what he got and passed.
His master says well god found it more convenient to pass you than change the position of the sun and moon . :)

Mohit,

Many people pray to pass their exams, and many of them still fail their exams. I have passed many exams, and I have never prayed to pass any of them.


I don't know what a half Hindu half Parsee believes, so answer me these questions:

1. Do you believe God has a divine plan?
2. Do you believe God will change his plan in response to prayers?
3. Why do some people get what they pray for and some people don't? And why do people who don't pray also sometimes get what they want?

Many people pray to pass their exams

Ha ha. I was just administering a midterm exam to some 9th graders. One of them started praying. I gave her a strange look.

She said, "I'm praying."

I responded, "Perhaps you should have studied."

You could also have said:

"Unfortunately, I am grading on a curve, and everyone else is praying also".

"Ha ha. I was just administering a midterm exam to some 9th graders. One of them started praying. I gave her a strange look.

She said, "I'm praying."

I responded, "Perhaps you should have studied.""

rofl, nice.

"Then there is divine intervention.An example with Paramhansa..."

This "example" fails on so many levels.

First there's the fact that the student spent so much time praying that he neglected his schoolwork; this is an unintended illustration of the fact that time spent in so-called "divine contemplation" is time wasted, time that could have been spent doing something that might have actually mattered, such as studying.

Then there's the arrogant presumption that if a so-called "master" gives God two options then she will somehow be compelled to choose one or the other; God couldn't possibly ignore both. Why doesn't some "master" put this to the test by praying for God to either eliminate cancer or eliminate heart disease? Whichever seems more "convenient."

Then there's the fact that, having chosen to help the foolish student, God was incapable of giving him perfect knowledge of the subject. The best God could manage was to cheat by arranging for the slacker to study only the material that was to be on the exam. And even then, with Omni-Everything Über-Soul on his side, the best the sluggard could accomplish was an execrable 40%?

And that 40% is the funniest part of the post. If this is a true story then the teacher was utterly incompetent for allowing such a low grade to pass. If it's not true and the numbers were arbitrary, then the fact that Mohit would choose such low figures, and the fact that he believes that the lowering of an already laughably low standard is an act of divine intervention, speak volumes about the quality of his education.

Hey, God answers prayers far less than 40% of the time, and he not only passes but gets exemplary marks. By religious standards, 40% is an epic achievement.

It is rather interesting that god couldn't just give the kid enough knowledge to get a 50%. Instead he had to magically change the acceptable passing average to 40%. seeems a rather odd way to accomplish the end goal.

It is rather interesting that god couldn't just give the kid enough knowledge to get a 50%. Instead he had to magically change the acceptable passing average to 40%. seeems a rather odd way to accomplish the end goal.

These types of scenarios seem to always be at the root of prayer anecdotes. The confluence of so many strange, improbable events that makes you feel like there must have been divine intervention should be the reason to conclude that there wasn't divine intervention. Why would God construct such elaborate, convoluted plots to answer your prayers? Why wouldn't he just do it?

Why would God construct such elaborate, convoluted plots to answer your prayers? Why wouldn't he just do it?

Because then religious people wouldn't be able to make ridiculius statement of "He works in mysterious ways."

Dan wrote: "Mohit,

Many people pray to pass their exams, and many of them still fail their exams. I have passed many exams, and I have never prayed to pass any of them.


I don't know what a half Hindu half ..."


Hindus is a religion and Parsees is also a Religion like Christianity.The oldest recorded prophet is Zaratushtra -the Parsee prophet roughly 2000 years before Jesus.

I do believe there is a divine plan,all has been destined.To pray was also destined.
Then it all depends on God ,what he wants.

Rick wrote: ""Then there is divine intervention.An example with Paramhansa..."

This "example" fails on so many levels.

First there's the fact that the student spent so much time praying that he neglected his ..."

First there's the fact that the student spent so much time praying that he neglected his schoolwork; this is an unintended illustration of the fact that time spent in so-called "divine contemplation" is time wasted, time that could have been spent doing something that might have actually mattered, such as studying.

Everyone must do his or her duty .
One is excused if he was spending his time in divine contemplation.

Then there's the fact that, having chosen to help the foolish student
Making this statement shows you have no idea who Paramhansa Yoganada was.Do some research ,its the same like calling Jesus an idiot.Wrong call.

Read ,gain some knowledge then come back.You will no longer mock the sages.

Making this statement shows you have no idea who Paramhansa Yoganada was.Do some research ,its the same like calling Jesus an idiot.Wrong call.


You mean there is no evidence Paramhansa Yoganda existed either?

Mohit,

I do believe there is a divine plan,all has been destined.To pray was also destined.
Then it all depends on God ,what he wants.

So if you pray because it was destined, then if you don't pray, then that must be what was destined. And God will do whatever he wants, because everything that happens is part of his plan. Then there is no point in praying.

By the way, Jesus was an idiot.

Mohit, can you recommend any good books to better understand Parsees? Sounds interesting. I know a little about Zarathustra, but not much. Thanks.
I'm muslim so I do not believe that God needs our prayers, but that rather prayer is a mercy given to us. Kind of like when Jesus said something like, "Man was not created for the Sabbath, but Sabbath for man." Prayer, I believe, is therefore, a spiritual practice intended to pull one's attention from the personal ego to God. As a muslim I believe that God is non-dual & transcends time, space & causation. The Quran talks about humility & non-attachment as being necessary to enter Paradise. Paradise, I think, is meant as a metaphor for something that cannot be described in lay terms. And not that material things, for example, are bad in themselves, just attachment to them. The idea is that changing the focus of your mind changes the landscape of your mind & your actions & spirit follow. For an example from a neurology perspective: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_... This is just one example, but I think that these things in the Quran & that Jesus speaks about in the Gospel are based on real states of consciousness & awareness. If you do believe in life after death, this takes a bigger meaning. I want to understand Christian & other religions' views about prayer better. From a muslim perspective it is fascinating to me to think about how nothing is really solid & each individual vibrates at a unique frequency. This is how I partly understand, "There is nothing but that it hymns God's praise," in the Quran & "I made from water every living thing. Will they then not believe?" knowing that water crystals respond to such vibration by changes in their very form. We follow a ritual prayer 5 times a day that I was interested to find out is extremely similar to the physical form of prayers performed by ancient Christians & Jews & parallels some yoga poses. Anyway, I don't agree with the literal view that Heaven & Hell are actual physical places, like maybe up in the sky somewhere or below the surfaces of the Earth. I think they are metaphors for something more immanent. And if God is not limited by our time-space continuum, not an object in our world, yet, "perfectly aware," as the Quran puts it & the very source of love & forgiveness that has no limits, then I think this kind of would throw out the corny old man with a beard on a cloud persona.