Middle East/North African Lit discussion

The Bastard of Istanbul
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2011cruise book diving(official) > Bastard of Istanbul (October-November 2011)




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Philippa | 56 comments I finished reading the novel last week, and I just skimmed through the 3 pages of this topic, which was definitely interesting to read! I've written only a very short review of the book here: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/... but I didn't write a very in-depth review.

I can understand why some people are troubled by the fact that Armanoush' Armenian family are still very hateful towards Turks in general, because it's a very narrow minded approach, but on the other hand I do understand it as well. A lot of older Dutch people I know are still quite wary of Germans in general, whereas others are much better able to cope with their past and can distinguish between the Nazis and ordinary modern-day Germans. Adding to that the fact that the Turkish government denies that a genocide ever took place, and it suddenly becomes much more understandable why there is still such hatred of the Turks among the Armenian community, especially in the diaspora. This hatred and general discontent is probably also one of the links that are keeping the Armenians in the diaspora together. The genocide is their common denominator, and without it their community is at risk of falling apart.

The reaction of Asya's aunts when Armanoush tells them the story is quite poignant and realistic in my opinion. Every country has its black pages in history that they'd rather forget about, so children aren't taught about it in school and it is soon forgotten by the majority. It would seem that this is very much the case with the genocide, hence why the aunts are genuinely surprised by the story Armanoush tells them, and are completely unaware of the fact that this actually happened in their country less than a century ago. They don't try to deny it either, because they have no idea that it took place at all.

I agree that Mustafa's character deserved a bit more explanation and elaboration, because he's really one of the minor characters of the novel, and his sudden importance towards the end kind of startled me to be honest. Of course this was probably what Shafak was aiming for, but for me the revelation just came completely out of the blue and it could've done with a bit more of a run-up towards the big revelation.

About Asya and Armanoush: I believe that the review in the Guardian made a comment about the fact that "19 year olds don't talk that way", which I completely disagree with. When I was 19, and even before that, I often took part in hefty discussions with friends, often on the topics of politics, religion, philosophy etc, so I don't see why the girls' discussions would seem out of character to the reader.

A more general note about the book: this is my second read by Elif Shafak, and I find that I enjoy her books immensely. I love her style of writing, and the topics she chooses to write about are absolutely fascinating and captivating. I've added pretty much all of her other works to my 'to read' list already.

*takes a break from all the typing*


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments "Turkey is ready to share the pain of Armenians as they prepare to mark the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide in 2015"

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsConte...


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
okyrhoe wrote: "The discussion about SOPA in another thread reminded me about something I had wanted to ask, re the "Cafe Constantinopolis" chatroom sub-plot in the novel:

My first impression was that it was a ..."


This is a really interesting thought...I need to read your links. I wonder if Safak has addressed this (her ideas behind her use of the Cafe) at all in interviews.


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
Ruby wrote: "Speaking of genocide, how can one describe actions of the Turkish government on the Kurdish population?"

This has crossed my mind too and I hope we eventually read a book that focuses on the Kurdish situation...not just in turkey but in Syria and Iraq, too. And Iran? My memory is failing me...


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
okyrhoe wrote: "And another question, for those who've visited Istanbul already:

Did you try to trace the characters' routes as they walked through the city?
Especially the opening scene, when Zeliha walks thro..."


I would like to do that!

A friend of mine was just in Istanbul and her facebook updates were making me insane with jealousy.


okyrhoe | 141 comments And another question, for those who've visited Istanbul already:

Did you try to trace the characters' routes as they walked through the city?
Especially the opening scene, when Zeliha walks through the rain, along the Galata bridge, and through the bazaar. Then towards the end of the novel, when Armanoush and Asya walk to Zeliha's tattoo parlor.


message 97: by okyrhoe (last edited Jan 19, 2012 08:51AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

okyrhoe | 141 comments The discussion about SOPA in another thread reminded me about something I had wanted to ask, re the "Cafe Constantinopolis" chatroom sub-plot in the novel:

My first impression was that it was a shortcut for the author, a quick way to include anonymous but pertinent comments in the Armenian-Turkish debate, without having to set up three-dimensional characters as the mouthpieces for those statements.

Thinking about it now, I wonder if the chatroom in the novel functions as a commentary on Turkey's sometime attempts at online censorship.

Or maybe it is a reference to the Serdar Argic phenomenon from the early days of the Internet.
I remember how difficult it used to be to navigate through the soc.culture.greece usenet group because of the constant barrage by "Serdar" making it impossible to have a sane public discussion, quite a contrast to the firm but gentle demeanor of the Cafe Constantinopolis users when they get to chat with Asya.


Ruby Emam (goodreadscomruby_emam) Speaking of genocide, how can one describe actions of the Turkish government on the Kurdish population?


message 95: by okyrhoe (last edited Dec 30, 2011 01:57AM) (new) - rated it 2 stars

okyrhoe | 141 comments Marieke wrote: "bookcrossing ...how does it work and what exactly is the bookring feature?"

When I first joined Bookcrossing it was mainly to "release" my books, that is to leave them in public spaces for others to find. The elements of chance and serendipity appealed to me - and it still does, for I get a kick out of complete strangers finding my book and reading about that chance encounter.
The act of "bookcrossing" involves registering the book on the BC website - same process as adding books here to our GR profiles - with the difference being that the BC website gives each registered book a unique identification number visible only to the person who registers it, which is then written someplace on the actual book.
When the book is left in a public location (a cafe, cinema foyer, subway train, park bench, etc.) the person who finds the book is encouraged to go to the BC website, and enter the book's unique identification number. A form opens where the finder can write a few words (similar process as adding comments on our GR friends' book reviews) either about the experience of finding the book, a review of the book, and/or what they plan to do with the book afterwards. Hopefully the finder will re-release the book eventually for more people to find, read, and pass on. That's the basic Bookcrossing concept.
Bookcrossers can "hunt" for books; there's a system of browsing recently released books and receiving notifications by e-mail, so if a book is released close by one can go look for it and "catch" it.
Over time the users of the Bookcrossing website have expanded the ways of booksharing amongst themselves in order to maximize the number of readers for each physical book...with bookrays, bookrings, bookboxes, virtual bookboxes, release challenges, "random acts of bookcrossing kindess", etc.
A Bookring is basically a list of readers who will read the book and pass it on to the next person on the list. It's a ring because I want the book back in the end. If I didn't want the book back, it would be a "bookray" where the last person on the list gets to keep the book, or do whatever they want with it (release it in a public location, or even start another bookring/bookray).
In my bookring, the reading list is international so the book will travel by post wherever the interested participants are located, and I try to organize the list according to each participant's mailing preferences.
In 2010 there was a surge in the number of BC users migrating to Goodreads, and we've remained active on both sites, since each one has its unique features & advantages.
For me, Bookcrossing is for fun (to dispose of books to make space for new ones) while Goodreads is a great platform for a meaningful discourse about literature and ideas (exploring which books to read/buy next).


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
okyrhoe wrote: "I am organizing a bookring with my copy of the novel. If you are also on Bookcrossing and would like to join, here's the link http://www.bookcrossing.com/journal/1..."

okyrhoe....i've never used bookcrossing but i have run across several people on goodreads who use it. i'm kind of an idiot...how does it work and what exactly is the bookring feature?


okyrhoe | 141 comments I am organizing a bookring with my copy of the novel. If you are also on Bookcrossing and would like to join, here's the link http://www.bookcrossing.com/journal/1...


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Thanks to you both for the interesting article links!


Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments Turkey has withdrawn its ambassador from France after the lower house of the French parliament passed a bill making it illegal to deny that the mass killings of Armenians by Turks during the First World War was an act of genocide.


okyrhoe | 141 comments Late as usual, just starting on this novel!

Here's an informative article about the history of photography and the role of Armenian photographers during the Ottoman era : http://www.onefineart.com/en/articles...


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Bojan wrote: "Bernadette,

Interesting thing about the Armenian photographers! One of the greatest portrait photographers of all time Yousuf Karsh was also of Armenian heritage. There is an interesting biography..."


Thanks for the book link ~ sounds interesting! And you make a good point about photography serving as a bridge.


Bojan Fürst (bojanfurst) | 4 comments Bernadette,

Interesting thing about the Armenian photographers! One of the greatest portrait photographers of all time Yousuf Karsh was also of Armenian heritage. There is an interesting biography that was published recently about him: Portrait in Light and Shadow: The Life of Yousuf Karsh. It's interesting how many well known photographers have been either immigrants or refugees. I think the portability of that profession played a role, but I also wonder if photography served a s away to bridge cultural and linguistic barriers.


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
Bernadette wrote: "I've still a lot to learn, too!

One random thing I learned yesterday - not about Turkey, though - was about Armenian photographers in Egypt. Apparently, since photography was a more mobile profess..."


i'm pretty excited about the 2012 cruise, because we will get to know more about minority groups like Armenians and Greeks who have lived in Arab countries like Egypt and Lebanon for a long time...not to mention Turkey. :D

i'm really looking forward to learning more about the Ottoman Empire and it's end.


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments I've still a lot to learn, too!

One random thing I learned yesterday - not about Turkey, though - was about Armenian photographers in Egypt. Apparently, since photography was a more mobile profession, it was once pursued by many Armenian immigrants (including those fleeing Turkish persecutions in the 1890s) to Egypt and other countries. Many of the early and well-known photographers and studios here in Egypt were Armenian.


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
Interesting, Bernadette....I really need to learn more about Turkey. I'm trying to repress my inner cynic and tell myself his apology to the Kurds is sincere and not some sort of preparation for war in Syria or a ploy of opposition politics.

The Armenian thing is interesting to compare, almost an unfair comparison since this event with the Kurds happened after 1923, which seems to be the cut-off date for Turkey...the Ottoman Turks versus modern Turks. Before reading Bastard, I had not appreciated that aspect of the problem from the Turkish perspective.


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Article from Al Jazeera:

Erdogan apologises to Kurds for mass killing

"While Turkey is breaking a taboo on its official rhetoric about the Dersim killings, the country rejects Armenian claims of genocide at the hands of the Ottoman Empire during the World War I period.

Armenians say that up to 1.5 million of their kin fell victim to genocide in 1915, when the Armenian community across the country was driven from their homes.

Turkey refuses to categorise the 1915 killings as genocide, and counters that 300,000 to 500,000 Armenians, and at least as many Turks, died in civil strife when Armenians rose up against their Ottoman rulers and sided with invading Russian forces."



Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Marieke wrote: " I'd like to know more about the Turkish public's reception of this book."

Me, too. I returned my book already - but remind me, didn't the author get in some sort of "trouble" for the Turkish version of this book?

Marieke wrote: "Bernadette, you have totally inspired me to try making Ashure. I might include it on the thanksgiving table this week. :D"

I liked it so much, I'm making some more today!! This time I can at least add the pistachios. :-)


message 80: by Marieke (last edited Nov 20, 2011 08:09AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
I'm trying to get caught up...everyone has such great comments that echo many of my own thoughts but articulated so much better than I am currently capable of. I'd like to know more about the Turkish public's reception of this book. She really seems to have touched a lot of raw nerves, many that arent immediately apparent to outsiders (like me), I think. I remember having a lot of a-ha moments.

Bernadette, you have totally inspired me to try making Ashure. I might include it on the thanksgiving table this week. :D

Wendy, I haven't forgotten your question about what tipped me off to who Asya's father was... I have to sit down with my book and locate the passage and then I'll return...

ETA: I'd also like to know how the Armenian community in the US reacted to this book...


Angela | 3 comments I just finished the book and I must admit I knew little about the Armenian genocide and Diaspora. It has now peaked my interest now and I have to read up on what I obviously missed or was never taught in school.

I must agree with some earlier posts in that the first thing that came to mind is the plight of the Palestinians. Though I can understand the bitterness or even hatred in the Israeli – Palestinian conflict because it is an ongoing conflict, I had a hard time believing the hatred or animosity the Armenian – Americans had toward the Turks today. What also bothered me was the fact that Asya and her group of friends are portrayed as a group of intellects, but she doesn’t have an inkling of what went on in the past, especially, in this day and age of the internet. Then again, that could have been the author’s point. We all know so much, but at the same time so little.

Also, Asya anti-Arab comments got my attention as well. I too would be interested to know more about the relationship of the Turks and the other Muslim countries. Do they consider themselves more European than Middle Eastern or was that the authors play into how Westerners portray Arabs. Just another thing I have to read up on.


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Okay, I should return the book to the library this week, so I just wanted to share some more of what I found to be important in the book:

"There is only one single way of becoming friends with the Turks: to be just as uninformed and forgetful. Since they won't join us in our recognition of the past, we are expected to join them in their ignorance of the past." (Baron Baghdassarian in Cafe Constantinople)

This is where I was probably most annoyed with some of the Armenian American characters. While I understand their need for recognition, I wonder how the modern-day Turks can be blamed, especially if they are "kept in the dark" by their own current government. If they are not taught the correct history in schools, how can they, especially those of the youngest generation, be blamed for being uninformed?

Which I think is a point that comes up a few pages later during a discussion at Cafe Kundera, when one Turk says:

"People have been brainwashed."

to which Asya responds:

"Aren't we just swallowing what's given to us? Capsules of information, capsules of misinformation. Everyday we swallow a handful."


And I couldn't agree more with that! And I think the author is making a good point here about the importance of not relying solely on what is "fed" to us by our schools and media, but that we must make an effort to search out the truth - from books, from other people, etc.

And this is probably my favorite passage in the book:

"Aram came from an Armenian family in Istanbul. He was, theoretically, Armenian.
And yet there was a sense in which Aram could not be Armenian or Turk or any other nationality. Aram could only be Aram, entirely sui generis. He was a unique member of a unique species. He was a charmer, a colossal romantic, a political science professor who often confessed to being more inclined to live the life of a fisherman in a seedy village on the Mediterranean. He was a fragile heart, a gullible soul, and a walking slice of chaos; a sanguine utopian and an irresponsible promiser; an outstandingly messy and quick-witted and honorable man. He was one of a kind and consequentially Asya had never associated him with any collective identity."



Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments That looks really good Bernadette -- I will have to give it a try soon. Thanks for the pics!


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Wendy wrote: "Can't wait to see the pics!"

Here's my version of ashure! :-)

Photobucket

Wendy wrote: "Here is recipe off allrecipes.com for Turkish Delight if you are interested --"

Interesting to read a recipe...but it's too easy to buy in Egypt so I'll stick to the shops! ;-) Do let us know if you try it though!

Wendy wrote: "Also, Barbara posed some really good questions in her post #71. Is everyone finished that we can start discussing in earnest w/out worrying about spoiling the ending for others? "

I was wondering the same thing. I know we can use spoilers, but it's nice to know other people are ready to discuss.


Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments Can't wait to see the pics! Glad it was a success. Here is recipe off allrecipes.com for Turkish Delight if you are interested --

http://allrecipes.com/recipe/turkish-...

Also, Barbara posed some really good questions in her post #71. Is everyone finished that we can start discussing in earnest w/out worrying about spoiling the ending for others?


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments The ashure is delicious!!! And relatively easy to make. I couldn't find pine nuts or pistachios so put almonds instead. And no dried fig, just extra apricots and orange peel. I can see myself making this often - it makes a yummy and nutritious breakfast, actually. I did take photos and will post one later today. :-)

Never thought of making Turkish delight, though. Did you find a good recipe?


Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments Good luck Bernadette! I actually went to a Turkish market/deli yesterday and asked if they had ashure. Unfortunately, they did not have any, but I was able to get Turkish baklava that was homemade by the owner's wife and it was amazing! My son wanted me to buy him some Turkish Delight since he's been watching the Narnia movies and is curious about what it tastes like, but it was a huge box, so I told him maybe we might just try to make it ourselves. I hope your ashure goes well -- post pics for us!


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments I'll be trying my hand at ashure today! I'm following the recipe from the book, for the most part - couldn't find a few of the ingredients here. Will let you all know how it goes!

Eid Mubarak!!


Barbara (BarbaraSC) | 48 comments I have the paperback edition, which is 157 pages, and I had to put the book down (to go to sleep) at page 118 last night. Depending on what time I get home tonight (I'm still working, but I'm taking a break to post here on Goodreads), chances are I will finish the book when I get home (OR, maybe not -- I've been working crazy hours lately and sometimes I can't read more than 10-20 pages of any book per night!!!)

However, with just 39 pages to go, there are still a lot of questions that need to be answered and some explanations to be made, and I have no idea how the author will manage to fit it all in within 39 pages!!!

The following is a SPOILER which should ONLY BE READ by those of you who have FINISHED The Bastard of Istanbul.

(view spoiler)


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
Barbara wrote: "Thank you, Nile Daughter!!! I do have many thoughts that I would like to share, so I will post the chapter I am up to and then put my thoughts into a spoiler.

This has been a very busy week at wo..."


and we are looking forward to your thoughts, Barbara!

i apologize for my absence, but things should be lightening up for me a little after today...


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
Ruby wrote: "I don't expect Turkey to opologize to atrocities committed towards the Armenians as that country is doing it today to the Kurdish population. History just repeats itself."

indeed; i will be posting some more of my thoughts this weekend (and answering your question, Wendy!) but that has been on my mind, Ruby.


Ruby Emam (goodreadscomruby_emam) I don't expect Turkey to opologize to atrocities committed towards the Armenians as that country is doing it today to the Kurdish population. History just repeats itself.


Barbara (BarbaraSC) | 48 comments Thank you, Nile Daughter!!! I do have many thoughts that I would like to share, so I will post the chapter I am up to and then put my thoughts into a spoiler.

This has been a very busy week at work, so I may not get to put my thoughts down until the weekend.

I'm really looking forward to reading what the other group members are thinking about the book!!!


Nile daughter (Niledaughter) | 1834 comments Mod
Barbara ,

It is ok/preferable to use the spoiler function , we already used in previous discussions like
Here .

we will see what we can add as a general guidelines to help members dealing with spoilers .

Feel free to express yourself the way you like :)


Barbara (BarbaraSC) | 48 comments Ghada wrote: "Barbra thank u so much for ur thought i would love to go for ur idea"

Thanks Ghada!!

Do you think most of the people in this discussion know how to create a spoiler? If not, I'll post the steps here. It's really VERY easy.

I was thinking that the best way to do it is for the person who wants to share their thoughts to post at the top THROUGH CHAPTER 10 (or whatever chapter they've finished) because it may be confusing if we use page numbers since some people are reading the actual book and others are using e-readers. And, as I said in my previous post, if someone is done with the book, they can just start the post with FINISHED BOOK and then put their post into a spoiler.

Are you one of the moderators of this discussion??? I guess I'm just waiting for a moderator to give the "go-ahead" before I use the spoiler function, because I've noticed that in all of the previous posts no one has used the spoiler feature (at least I don't remember seeing it in any of the posts) so there may be a reason why.


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Wendy wrote: "Bernadette, if you are interested in reading more about the TRC, then I recommend

Country of My Skull: Guilt, Sorrow, and the Limits of Forgiveness in the New South Africa. "


Thanks! I will check that out.


Ghada Arafat | 226 comments Barbra thank u so much for ur thought i would love to go for ur idea


Barbara (BarbaraSC) | 48 comments I still have around 100 pages to go before I finish, but I already have a lot that I want to share.

I need to log off now, but sometime tomorrow I would like to post some thoughts, which may be a spoiler for anyone who has not read the first 230 pages or so (I think that's what I'm up to.) SO, if I do post anything, I could put it into a "spoiler folder" in my post, if that's something we can do here in this group.

I don't see any reason why we can't use the spoiler feature, but I've noticed that in many of the posts there are folks in the group who are waiting for everyone to finish the book before they post their thoughts.

This is just a suggestion, but maybe we can put a note on the top of our posts saying THROUGH PAGE 250 or THROUGH CHAPTER 12 or FINISHED WITH BOOK, and then put your thoughts into a spoiler, so that anyone who has read up to the page or chapter at the top of the post will know whether or not to open the spoiler note.

It's VERY easy to create a spoiler. I'll be happy to go through the steps of making a spoiler (but not until tomorrow because I need to go somewhere right now) as long as the moderators are okay with my suggestion.

THANKS!!!
Barbara


Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments Bernadette wrote: "Wendy wrote: " It makes me think about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission process used in SA to move the country past Apartheid ..."

I need to read more about this!

And on the personal level..."


Bernadette, if you are interested in reading more about the TRC, then I recommend

Country of My Skull: Guilt, Sorrow, and the Limits of Forgiveness in the New South Africa.

As for Zehila . . . that is a hard question. It would seem that she had not forgiven her brother when he arrived for his visit based on the sharp comments she made to him, but maybe now that he is dead, she will feel closure? Kind of sad though to think it took his death for her to be able to feel a sense of resolution.

One thing that bothers me about the story is that we are not given any glimpse into the personality of Mustapha (sp?) to explain why he would do such a thing. The picture painted of him is very docile and quiet, so it seems like such a disconnect that he could do this. Marieke, you said you figured it out early on -- what gave you the clues? I honestly didn't see it coming until much closer to the end.


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Wendy wrote: " It makes me think about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission process used in SA to move the country past Apartheid ..."

I need to read more about this!

And on the personal level...Do you think Zehila will be able to forgive? Should she be expected to? Will this acknowledgement of her past help her and Aysa?


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Wendy wrote: "I am attaching a link w/ a recipe for ashure which also has a little story about the history/legend behind the dessert. I also learned that it is som..."

Thanks for the link! I've been comparing the recipe in the novel to the one in the ME cookbook so it's nice to have another comparison. The only big difference so far is the cookbook version calls for milk. And also gives a note that some ashure should be given to anyone who smells the aroma as it cooks!


Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments http://www.allaboutturkey.com/tatlila...

I am attaching a link w/ a recipe for ashure which also has a little story about the history/legend behind the dessert. I also learned that it is sometimes called Noah's Ark Pudding. I'm a sucker for a good back story, so thought I would share with all of you as well.


Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments I love the themes you raised Bernadette! Really thought provoking questions. It makes me think about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission process used in SA to move the country past Apartheid in a way that they could all try to move forward together. Having the opportunity to bear witness and have the atrocities that were committed acknowledged and recognized seemed to be a very important part of the healing process for SA. Being denied this opportunity, and never receiving any official recognition of the wrongs that were committed seems to have only served to cause the resentment, anger, distrust, etc. to continue to fester.


Bernadette (bernadettesimpson) | 205 comments Marieke wrote: "I can empathize with modern-day Turks in the way they can be compassionate without feeling apologetic. I think of modern-day Germans and Nazis and modern-day white Americans and slavery."

I had a difficult time accepting the American Armenian characters who were so anti-Turk today. And, I thought - well, I'm not responsible for the acts of past slave owners and I wouldn't expect others to want an apology from me. Compassion and empathy, yes, acknowledgement that they were cruelly wronged, yes, but not an apology. At least not from me as an individual. I can understand though their desire for an official recognition and apology from the state of Turkey.

I thought the parallel between the Turkish-Armenian conflict, the violation of a young woman, and the denial of the past was very interesting. Do we need an acknowledgement of past events before we can forgive? Can we forgive without someone asking for forgiveness? And will acknowledging the past truly help us "move forward"? This is one of those books that I wished had a sequel!!


Marieke | 1031 comments Mod
i finished! and now that i have finished, i'd just like to recommend that we all leave out one particular "ingredient" from the ashure. ;)

i had figured out that part of the story at the beginning, but i was very interested to see how/if it would be revealed and whether it would be resolved. a strange but interesting framework to develop for describing Armenian-Turkish history and tensions...


Wendy (wendywoo) | 240 comments If I recall what I read in wikipedia (I think), the Turkish government has refused to acknowledged that what occurred fits the definition of "genocide". Which is of course a very infuriating position to take.


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