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A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5)
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A Song of Ice and Fire > FINISHED: A Dance with Dragons - Spoiler Hell Within

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message 1: by Chris , The Kingslayer (last edited Aug 05, 2011 07:05PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments This thread should only be entered by those that have read the entire book. With that assumption, I'll lower the requirement for marked spoilers, just so we can freely talk about it.

If you haven't finished A Dance with Dragons, you've been warned. Continue reading at your own risk.

If you're posting here, PLEASE take the time to ensure that the "Add to my Update Feed" box under your text window is UNCHECKED. We don't want these spoilers to escape the confines of this thread.

If they do, you'll have to take the Black and go North.


Maja (maja_montero) | 14 comments ok. i just finished it yesterday.... like it was said before, major spoilers ahead!

JON!!! WTF!!!! I was sooo pissed after i finished his last chapter! what was that? another Robb moment... If he dies, I will stop reading these books, I swear!!

Had to get that off my chest!


message 3: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments That was more like a Robb moment added to a Ned moment with a Renly moment thrown in for good measure.

I guess we'll spend the next few years in reader's Hell wondering.


Maja (maja_montero) | 14 comments I mean really! That was just plain mean... As I was reading - one stab, second stab, third... he didnt feel the fourth... - i swear, i felt as if someone was stabbing me right into my heart... I was too shocked to react in any way...


message 5: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments I couldn't even write a review.


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments I agree, that was pretty shocking. I think that Jon put a little too much faith in the loyalty men of the Watch would have toward the Lord Commander, especially after what happened to the previous one, and their history of always protecting against the wildlings. That's not knocking Jon - he's one of my favorite characters. But, I will admit that I think he assumes men will do the honorable thing because that's what he's known all his life, living with Ned.

I don't think he will die though. And I don't think that he will permanently enter anyone else's body (or Ghost's), like the warg from the prologue tried to. I think -hope- that something will happen to save him within his own body. Maybe he'll enter Wun Wun and lay the fucking smackdown on some traitors. ;)

I'm really beginning to wonder what GRRM has against the Starks though...


Maja (maja_montero) | 14 comments I honestly think that, even if Jon dies, Melisandre will give him a new life. I know there are more Starks left out there, but Rickon is till very young, Bran has now found his place, for Arya I hope she comes back to Westeros soon... I can say I don't really care about Sansa at this point, but Jon seemed like the only hope. Like the only one that might be able to get Winterfell back from Boltons... And if he died and will not be back... Then my enjoyment of the books will change... I will still love them! And read them! but it will never ever be the same.

You hear me GRRM!!! Do not kill Jon!!!


Maja (maja_montero) | 14 comments So, I have a question. I apologize if it was obvious, but I was finishing the book on a 15 hour trip and then a day after being extremely out of it. We all know this is all about spoilers, but still I will mention it.

The part where Semly is talking about the girl he loved that threw herself of the tower after losing her daughter... Is it just me, or was that girl supposed to be Ned´s ˝lover˝and Jon´s mother? Because he mentioned that if he had won that tournament that he would pick her and then she wouldn't think about Stark...


ambimb | 1 comments Becky wrote: "I agree, that was pretty shocking. I think that Jon put a little too much faith in the loyalty men of the Watch would have toward the Lord Commander, especially after what happened to the previous ..."

I like the Wun Wun idea, but it wouldn't be a good permanent solution. Maybe that's how Jon saves his own life or something, but Jon pretty much has to survive as Jon (not as a ghost or warg or whatever) or.... well, he just better, is all I can say.


message 10: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments Maja, you're correct. That's Ashara Dayne, sister to the legendary Kingsguard member, Arthur Dayne.

She was supposedly or rumored to be Ned's lover at one point, and one of the theories floating around is that she's Jon's mother. That's a readers' theory though; I don't think I've seen it actually suspected in the books.

Ashara is supposed to have killed herself in her grief, said to be because her brother was killed during Robert's Rebellion by Ned himself.


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments Ambimb, I don't think the Wun Wun thing would be a permanent solution either. Just long enough to save his body and get help, perhaps. But I agree with you. Jon better not die. He just better not.


message 12: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments Nicki wrote: "In that scene, does anyone remember if Selmy actually says which Stark he's referring to? Because I have it in my head that he doesn't actually say it's Ned..."

Hmmm...I don't think he did. GRRM could be catching us in an assumption.


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments Nicki wrote: "My theory: [spoilers removed] I'm probably way off mark, but it just seems very GRRM-like, in that all the clues seem to point one way but are still (so far as I can remember) perfectly accurate if..."

I agree. That seems more likely to me.


message 14: by Chris , The Kingslayer (last edited Aug 30, 2011 06:28AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments Nicki wrote: "My theory: [spoilers removed] I'm probably way off mark, but it just seems very GRRM-like, in that all the clues seem to point one way but are still (so far as I can remember) perfectly accurate if..."

And it would make sense if she leapt to her death (view spoiler) Or was she supposed to have done that because she lost a baby?


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments I had originally thought that Septa Lamore was possibly Ashara Dayne, but I've been rereading Feast for Crows and it's more likely an ex-baby momma of Oberyn's, mother to Tyene who is blonde hairded and blue eyeded and was got on a septa by Oberyn's. That falls into place better than my Ashara Dayne theory, who better to take Aegon than Rhaegar's best friend and Elia's brothers lady?

(if it is really Aegon, that is)


Maja (maja_montero) | 14 comments Ok, so my question would be, if she threw herself of the tower for losing her daughter, how could she possibly be Jon's mother?
And if she was Jon's mother, was his father then Brandon? Is it possible that Jon is Brandon's son?

I am just a little confused. It seems that that Semly part was trying to tell me something, but I might have missed the mark... Tell me if I am wrong...


Maja (maja_montero) | 14 comments I mean, I am not sure, I dont even believe it, but when Robert spoke to Ned at one point (long time ago) he asked him about his bastards mother and Ned said her name was Ashara... I am sure he lied, but that Semly chapter kind of totally discarted that... So we are back to square 1 when it somes to Jons parents.


message 18: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments There's a rumor floating around that Ashara is Jon's mother. I can't remember seeing it in the actual books, but it's a common theory.

I thought Ned told Robert her name was Willa. I'm not even sure the affair between Ned and Ashara was confirmed, except maybe by Selmy's memories.


message 19: by Dawn, GRRM hard or GRRM home (new) - rated it 5 stars

Dawn (breakofdawn) | 178 comments Yeah, he said her name was Willa, not Ashara. I'm firmly in the Rhaegar and Lyanna camp when it comes to Jon's parentage.


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments Dawn wrote: "Yeah, he said her name was Willa, not Ashara. I'm firmly in the Rhaegar and Lyanna camp when it comes to Jon's parentage."

Yep.


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments I think it also makes sense to me that Ned told Robert the name "Willa" if it was really Lyanna. I mean, Robert went to war over Lyanna, and killed Rhaegar over Lyanna... If she was Jon's mother, and Rhaegar his father, telling Robert that so many years later would only cause problems, so he maybe lied. To save his friend hurt and anger... to save Jon from being a "Targaryen" in Robert's eyes.


message 22: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments I think that Willa was Jon's wetnurse, if she wasn't his actual mother. Or was she Aegon's? Or both...Wait. Wasn't there a baby Dayne too?


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments Becky wrote: "I think it also makes sense to me that Ned told Robert the name "Willa" if it was really Lyanna. I mean, Robert went to war over Lyanna, and killed Rhaegar over Lyanna... If she was Jon's mother, a..."


That's really good logic. Wylla was a wetnurse so she would have had babies hanging off her like mad, who knew whos was whos?


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments Chris wrote: "I think that Willa was Jon's wetnurse, if she wasn't his actual mother. Or was she Aegon's? Or both...Wait. Wasn't there a baby Dayne too?"


Wylla was Jon's and Edric Daynes wetnurse


message 25: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments Jax wrote: "That's really good logic. Wylla was a wetnurse so she would have had babies hanging off her like mad, who knew whos was whos? .."

LOL. I just proved that theory with my confusion.


message 26: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments Someone met Edric Dayne at some point. Arya?

He told her then that he'd been wetnursed along with Jon.


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments Jon being a Targaryen really just backs up Ned's continuous dreams and memories of Lyanna's last words, his promise to her Promise me, Ned, most likely a promise to keep yet another Targaryen safe, to keep Jon's heritage safe, especially from that lunatic, Robert.


message 28: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments Unless Jon wargs into a girl's body.

*groan* Please, no.


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments I'm not following you, Nicki. Explain please?


message 31: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments We have a theory thread in here somewhere....where Jax and I introduced our idea of the third.


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments Well, there are theories for Tyrion to be a Targaryen (Aerys's sexytimes and/or rape of Joanna.

but it's far fetched. Still..


message 34: by Jax (last edited Sep 01, 2011 07:25AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments oh yeah! man, i already forgot that one. I dont think that Varys would be the head of a dragon though..but how awesome would that be?!?!

What if it were like..Jon, Tyrion and Varys?

(I hate Dany and wish she would die already)


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments I only like to believe in the Tyrion theory more than the Jamie/Cersei theory because too often GRRM says stuff like in GoT "The light throws Tyrion's shadow across the yard, and for an instant, he looks as tall as a king"

and there are more little things like that involving Tyrion...


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments Hmmm... I feel like I need to re-read these again. Crap. LOL


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments Or, read them again, actually, since I've never "re-read" them.


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments Or possibly against the no reread rule that some of you have for this year?

...was that in this group?


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments It's next year... LOL No re-reads for 2012.


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments Oh, sorry. I forgot the slogan!


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments Haha... We're getting T-shirts made too. ;)


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments I totally want a t-shirt..even if I can't join the group


Becky (Beckyofthe19and9) | 257 comments I don't know if we really are doing t-shirts, but if we do, you can have one. :D


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments sweetness.


message 45: by Jackie (last edited Sep 01, 2011 08:44AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jackie (thelastwolf) | 359 comments Finally finished. Took a long time. A lot of it was boring, Dany, Tyrion, Quentyn blah blah blah.

Maya wrote: JON... If he dies, I will stop reading these books, I swear!!
That's exactly how I feel. As long as they don't kill Ghost, Jon can go into him as a warg, then into a person eventually. The prologue confirms it's possible.

Becky wrote: I think -hope- that something will happen to save him within his own body. Maybe he'll enter Wun Wun and lay the fucking smackdown on some traitors. ;)
I'm partial to Jon's body. I'm in love with him. After they killed my Ned, Jon is the logical choice for me. I love a man with honor. Doesn't hurt that both are hot.
I thought about Wunwun, just to do the smackdown, but if he stays in him, that's it, my love affair with Jon is over. I'm a shallow bitch at times and this is one of them.

I'm with Nicki in Message 14, but it could also be (view spoiler) That was a friend's theory, not mine but it's possible. I've never thought Ned was Jon's father. Ever.
I was in the Lyanna-Rhaegar camp for a long time, but if it's true, then that knowledge died with Ned rendering it pointless and unable to confirm. If it is true, I think the reason Ned would lie and keep a promise to Lyanna, which would most likely be "keep my son safe', is that Robert wanted all Targaryens dead. He's never allow Jon to live, a Targaryen and product of rape on his beloved Lyanna. Not a chance.
I'm not firmly entrenched in any single theory on Jon's parentage, GRRM has a habit of making things appear one way when in fact it is something else.


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments Varys & Littlefinger seem to know everything, I bet one of them knows the truth of Jon's heritage.


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments And possibly Septa Lamore may know Jon's true birth. Wylla too.


message 48: by Chris , The Kingslayer (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris  (haughtc) | 663 comments Whatch yoo talkin' 'bout, Wylla?


Jax (Anti-Cato) | 151 comments "Watchoo talkin'bout Willis" was my facebook name for a long time.


Maja (maja_montero) | 14 comments Chris wrote: "There's a rumor floating around that Ashara is Jon's mother. I can't remember seeing it in the actual books, but it's a common theory.

I thought Ned told Robert her name was Willa. I'm not even su..."


You are right! I got my stuff confused. Sorry!


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