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scriptural discussions > Noah and the Flood

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Jimmy  | 243 comments One of my favorite passages shows that you can find humor even in the Bible. Here are the lines in poetic form:

After the Flood
by the King James Dudes

And Noah began to be an husbandman,
and he planted a vineyard:

And he drank of the wine,
and was drunken;
and he was uncovered
within his tent.

And Ham,
the father of Canaan,
saw the nakedness
of his father,
and told his two
brethren without.

And Shem and Japeth
took a garment,
and laid it upon
both their shoulders,
and went backward,
and covered the nakedness
of their father;
and their faces
were backward,
and they saw not
their father's nakedness.

And Noah awoke
from his wine,
and knew what his
younger son had
done unto him.

And he said,
Cursed be Canaan;
a servant of servants
shall he be unto
his brethren.

And Noah lived
after the flood
three hundred and fifty years.

And all the days
of Noah were
nine hundred and fifty years;

and he died.


Jimmy  | 243 comments Now think about this. Noah is bare ass drunk. This is AFTER god has killed everyone on earth: babies, old people, pregnant women, children. Noah gets drunk and lies around with no clothes on. God couldn't have found a better person to keep alive?

Then Noah's youngest son sees his father naked and the son is punished for that. The other sons walk in BACKWARDS holding a cloth. How silly is that.

To top it off, the descendants of the youngest son are condemned to be servants. In other words, African slaves. These passages were used to defend slavery.


MadgeUK It isn't as silly as the curator of the Kansas Museum of Creationism who told a BBC reporter that Dinosaurs were on the Ark and that they were around at the same time as Adam and Eve!!

http://creationmuseum.org/whats-here/...


message 4: by Jimmy (last edited Jul 30, 2011 02:47PM) (new)

Jimmy  | 243 comments Here's a book used by home schoolers learning just such a thing:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53...

Check out the positive reviews it gets.


Melki | 211 comments Hmmm... everyone seems to like the book but this Jimmy Pappas fella. He must be some sort of malcontent. I'd definitely leave him off the ark!


Cora Judd (CoraJudd) | 163 comments Jimmy wrote: "Here's a book used by home schoolers learning just such a thing:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53...

Check out the positive reviews it gets."


Not sure why, but I found those reviews very disheartening. To get a person from that page to this one is a very, very long journey.....


Jimmy  | 243 comments It's terribly disheartening, Cora. I wanted somehow to change these people's ridiculous ideas, but how do I do that? I got the book from a girl who is home schooled. What else is she learning at home? We need somehow to provide more secular ways to help young children around the world to escape this trap they are in. One thing's for sure: I will never get on their ark.


message 8: by MadgeUK (last edited Jul 31, 2011 01:34AM) (new)

MadgeUK It is indeed disheartening:(. I am happy to say that there is very little of this sort of rubbish taught in the UK and I have never seen a book for children on creationism. My grandchildren would laugh at such a book. Evolution is universally taught as part of the national curriculum and has been for at least a century. Creationism is briefly mentioned in religious education but not with any degree of seriousness.

However, when 'academies' were set up as an adjunct to the state system under Tony Blair a few of them were financed by religious people/institutions and some began to teach Creationism but in 2009, because of protests from the scientific community, the government made it compulsory that all schools subsidised by the state had to teach evolution and they had to come in line. Official Government guidance says creationism should be tackled in RE, but should not form part of science syllabuses. (The majority of schools here are either fully financed by the state or partly by the Church of England, the Catholic Church, Jews and Muslims. There are very few totally private schools and even they have to teach the national curriculum. There is also very little home schooling here, no encouragement of it and no subsidies for it except for sick, military or gipsy children.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/200...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5098608.stm

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life...

One of the worries expressed by scientists in the US has been that the growing trend towards teaching creationism could have an impact on America's leading role in science - will kids who have been taught that the earth is flat etc grow up to be space scientists and what impact will it have on the earth sciences, for instance.


Lea (LeaDFW) Just a quick comment that not all homeschoolers are religious -- my family homeschools, in part because of the christian bleed-through my kids were getting in their (non-religious) private school. My oldest daughter was called a satanist -- by another PARENT -- because she is an atheist. The school, while outwardly supportive, never really helped us with the issue, and my daughter spent the rest of the school year being ostracized.

I actually did go to a religious (born again) highschool. I distinctly remember the whole thing about Ham and slavery being taught in our science class! And yes, it was stated very clearly (this was in the early 80s!) that blacks were inferior to whites because of this!


message 10: by Donegal, The One True Mod (last edited Jul 31, 2011 08:09AM) (new)

Donegal | 1524 comments Lea wrote: "My oldest daughter was called a satanist -- by another PARENT -- because she is an atheist. "

Unbelievable and disgusting! The maltreatment of children by the religious is especially vile.

Stories like that make me feel so lucky about my high school years. Considering that I live in a small town in rural Missouri, I'm surprised I didn't have more trouble with that kind of thing. The closest thing to such an attack is that a fellow student once told my friends and I that we were going to hell for reading Harry Potter, and our response was to "cast a spell" on him (in hindsight, it's kind of surprising we didn't have trouble over that).


Jimmy  | 243 comments Good points, Lea, about homeschoolers.

It's important to note that slavery has occurred in all cultures and it still occurs today. We need to get at its root causes, not supernatural mumbo-jumbo.


message 12: by Jimmy (last edited Aug 06, 2011 08:08AM) (new)

Jimmy  | 243 comments The anti-government hysteria we have in the US prevents the federal government from regulating private schools, not to mention public schools, so that they teach pseudo science as true science.


message 13: by Jimmy (last edited Aug 01, 2011 10:10AM) (new)

Jimmy  | 243 comments Here's a suggestion. If you like my review of the New Answers Book, post your like. It's a way of voting and showing our concern about such things.


message 14: by Donegal, The One True Mod (new)

Donegal | 1524 comments Jimmy wrote: "Here's a suggestion. If you like my review of the New Answers Book, post your like. It's a way of voting and showing our concern about such things.

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/53376..."


I think you meant http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

;)


message 15: by Jimmy (last edited Aug 01, 2011 10:10AM) (new)

Jimmy  | 243 comments Well, actually I meant the other one so people could read all of the reviews and get a taste of what others are saying. But both are fine.

I deleted my incorrect link.


message 16: by Donegal, The One True Mod (new)

Donegal | 1524 comments Oh, I just meant that the link you posted goes to a different book.


Adam Boudreau | 12 comments Christians are very confused about the real world they live in. It doesn't help that a lot of the people they listen to assert that the real world is the sinful place and should be ignored.


message 18: by Melki (last edited Aug 01, 2011 11:51AM) (new)

Melki | 211 comments Sorry Jimmy - thought I HAD hit "like" the first time I saw your review. Adam - loved your comment about faith trumping physical evidence! Why do they persist in believing that?


Adam Boudreau | 12 comments I am not sure, I find this entirely perplexing. The part that vexes me even more is they will say all this nonsense then without skipping a beat talk about Newton and Gravity. They are perfectly willing to believe in gravity, but not the age of the Earth. Also I wonder if they would balk in horror that Newton also determined that the God of the Bible could not be God?


Jimmy  | 243 comments They have pictures in the book of two scientists looking at the earth through a magnifying glass, one with a bible glass and the other with, if I remember correctly, a Darwin or evolution glass. The believers support the bible magnifying glass.

A lot of the reviewers also implied that it was some sort of public school plot, as if they were the ones responsible for evolution.

And thanks for the Likes and the comments. I have no idea if it impacts on anyone out there who disagrees with me among the reviewers, but maybe it will help.


Adam Boudreau | 12 comments I've also noticed that Christians or any Creationist for that matter, lump Evolution into Geology and Big Bang Theory and all this other stuff. I have no idea why they think all of that is part of Evolution. They also seem to think Evolution accounts for the origin of life, which also isn't true. Evolution is about after life already started and talks about species. What Geology has to do with species, I'll never know.


Jimmy  | 243 comments I think I understand what they are thinking, Adam. They are referring to how geology accounts for the formation or "evolution" of the earth. They want the earth to just appear in total in one of God's "days." So they lump that in with Darwin's evolution of species. The operative word is "change" and how our world changed over time and how much time it took.


Jimmy  | 243 comments I have this dream that some day a girl being home schooled will be given The New Answers Book by her parents. She will check goodreads, see my review and all of the likes, and think twice about what her parents are teaching her.


Adam Boudreau | 12 comments Jimmy wrote: "I think I understand what they are thinking, Adam. They are referring to how geology accounts for the formation or "evolution" of the earth. They want the earth to just appear in total in one of Go..."

Yes, I know that, but that is lay persons definition of "evolve". This is clearly false when applied to Theory of Evolution. They really need to learn what these things mean, because if they think that's ok, then when physicists calculate "work", that means the objects went and did a job for pay....


message 25: by Donegal, The One True Mod (last edited Sep 11, 2011 04:01PM) (new)

Donegal | 1524 comments Adam wrote: "Jimmy wrote: "Yes, I know that, but that is lay persons definition of "evolve". This is clearly false when applied to Theory of Evolution. They really need to learn what these things mean, because if they think that's ok, then when physicists calculate "work", that means the objects went and did a job for pay.... "

I think that at the heart of the problem is a gaping and probably intentional ignorance of the true meaning of what scientists say, whether it's what the words actually mean ("It's just a theory!") or what the theories actually state ("My grandparents weren't no damn monkeys!").

The real question is, how can we get someone to understand something they simply don't want to? How do you teach someone who doesn't want to learn?


message 26: by MadgeUK (last edited Sep 12, 2011 12:59AM) (new)

MadgeUK Yes, one of the problems is that such people jump on the word 'Theory of....' without understanding that most of what was once theory in The Origin of Species has now been proved.

People learn in a variety of ways and information sometimes 'sinks in' whether they want it to or not. As more and more people learn about and come to accept certain facts about creation etc the information will tickle down. This is what happened when folks thought the earth was flat - not many people could read, let alone read Galileo but nevertheless the idea that the earth was globular trickled down.


Lisa | 3 comments I'm sorry but is this actually in the bible? noah getting drunk and all? That is in the Bible?


message 28: by Donegal, The One True Mod (new)

Donegal | 1524 comments It certainly is. In Genesis, I believe.


Lisa | 3 comments How very sad. Just when you think the "good book" can't get any better


MadgeUK Genesis 9:20-25 to be exact, one of the strangest stories in the bible:

'And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders and went backwards, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.'

There are some interesting interpretations of this here:-

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/r...


Jimmy  | 243 comments This story is never told. I'm sure it's not at the Creation Museum. Can you imagine them showing a drunk and naked Noah? And then his kid getting punished as if it were his fault? I don't get it. Then to top it off, God just finished killing just about every living thing in the world for this drunk.


message 32: by Donegal, The One True Mod (last edited Sep 15, 2011 06:59PM) (new)

Donegal | 1524 comments I know Christians like to talk about how "it was a different time" and we need to put these stories in their historical context but some of these stories make me ask, in what context could these possibly make sense? I mean, how was there a time when people who hadn't been raised on such stories heard them and thought, "Yeah, that makes sense"?


MadgeUK 'It was a different' time is just more apologetics for the nonsense in biblical stories.


Jimmy  | 243 comments I found a children's book once again explaining how dinosaurs were on the ark. This time I am the only reviewer so far:

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59...

You really have to see this one to believe it. Bumper is the name of a friendly dinosaur helping Noah.


Christos Tsotsos | 55 comments Are there any antrhopological or historical accounts as to what has created all these flood myths spanning from india with the story of Manu to greece with the ancient myth of Deucalion? Where there memories of melting ice during the end of the ice age or something?

It makes me wonder.


George King (kinggeorge) | 136 comments Jimmy wrote: "Now think about this. Noah is bare ass drunk. This is AFTER god has killed everyone on earth: babies, old people, pregnant women, children. Noah gets drunk and lies around with no clothes on. God c..."

The passage is actually a condemnation of Canaan (and its agriculture), Israel's mortal enemy at the time this portion of the Bible was written. Biblical scholars agree on this interpretation, but you are right that apologists for slavery tried to show that Ham was the father of the black race. I was actually taught this interpretation in a Sunday school class in 1955.


message 37: by Jimmy (last edited Mar 03, 2012 09:28AM) (new)

Jimmy  | 243 comments Christos, I'm inclined to believe the flood stories are about the real flooding that occurs around rivers as they overflow their banks regularly. Ancient people relied on floods to enrich the soil. Nowadays we tend to wall up the sides of rivers and the silt is then washed into the ocean.

Mountain climbers probably found fossils of sea creatures on mountains and of course concluded that floods covered the mountains. Science now understands better why those fossils are there.

For how Christians explain sea creatures on mountains just go to answersingenesis.org. And prepare to shake your head in amazement.


David (SageDave) | 9 comments Yuppers - Noah was a bit hammered at the time.

BTW- if you read the Epic of Gilgamesh, you will find another flood story. The speculation is as follows:
The land between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers was known as "The World" in the time of the story, about 1,000 years before the Dead Sea Scrolls. There is also evidence of a possible third river. So...

If the rivers flooded at the same time and those floods were so great that the waters met, then the "world" would have experienced a great flood.


Tom  Foolery (TomFoolery) | 3 comments Christos wrote: "Are there any antrhopological or historical accounts as to what has created all these flood myths spanning from india with the story of Manu to greece with the ancient myth of Deucalion? Where ther..."

The Black Sea was once a HUGE freshwater lake with a number of ancient/pre-historic cities on the banks, but at some point the Mediterranian Sea flooded it, effectively wiping out those civilizations. It's by no means a consensus among archaeologists, but there are many who believe that biblical and other regional flood myths are based on this event.


Christos Tsotsos | 55 comments Thanks everyone you gave me a good point to start a small research. It must have been quite a dissaster to survive for centuries in the myths of populations within a very wide region.


message 41: by Duntay (last edited Mar 04, 2012 02:34AM) (new)

Duntay | 11 comments Hi Christos ,
At the end of the Ice Age there was a rise in sea levels. I only know about it from the Northern European perspective, (for example seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland ), there were also tsumanis, etc in the Mesolithic , about 8,000 years ago(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12...) but it must have occurred all over the world - however, it seems to me a bit too long ago to be preserved in folk memory, but I suppose you never know!


Christos Tsotsos | 55 comments I found this interesting link. I guess with a large number of the population being near costal or fresh water regions, which they obvioulsy needed for land cultivation, fishing, etc, all of them must have suffered catastrophic tsunamis or flooding at some point.

The myths in the article are grouped by language families which makes it much easier to see how they have survived over a period of time and spread across a geographical region.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood...

I guess the best way to escape a flood is by boat.

8000 years seems long but the egyptian pre dynastic period dates as far back as 5500 BC and their hieroglyphics date back to around 3000 BC so stories might have survived or even writen down in some form or another.

From the begining of writen history (around 3000 BC) there is of course the mesopotamians and their stories survived as David pointed out. Their religion began to fade but some stories probably were adapted to suit new religions or worshiped faiths.

To digress:

According to Saramago in Caim, Cain himself was on that ark, he killed the men and slept with the women.

Dirty rascal!

We are all his decendants. Grandad Cain hater of god.


message 43: by Christos (last edited Mar 05, 2012 01:05AM) (new)

Christos Tsotsos | 55 comments Scott wrote: "After all, even fifty percent of Atheists are below average"

What is your statistical mean? How can you define intelligence? Are your cocnlusions based on collective everyday intelligence versus intellect, on complex task completion intelligence?

There is lies, statistics and lies.

There are loads of anthropologists out there that investigate religion, their stories and allegories and draw conclusions on the form of society. Rejecting an idea is one thing, investigating its origins is another. Maybe a waste of time but surely the later is a clever thing to do.

Here is one for you from a misanthropist: 99% of people are pricks. There is a pretty good chance we both are, for you I am certain, for me unfortunatelly I cannot say anything unbiased.


Hazel | 214 comments surely Scotts statement should be "50% of atheists are below average for atheists", seeing as studies have shown a positive correlation between both high IQ scores, and higher level education and atheism....


Christos Tsotsos | 55 comments Hazel wrote: "surely Scotts statement should be "50% of atheists are below average for atheists", seeing as studies have shown a positive correlation between both high IQ scores, and higher level education and a..."

I don't believe in IQ scores.

I do not know what Scott means with the 50% are below average remark other than trying to wind people up, i think he is an angler I am just yanking his line.


Hazel | 214 comments ditto.


Timothy (TimothyNiedermann) | 51 comments I think you all are missing the point. All Scott was saying was that, in any statistical sample, 50% (or 49.9999%) are below average mathematically, just as 50% (or, again, 49.9999%) are above average mathematically. It's just math.


Tom | 11 comments Jimmy wrote: "Now think about this. Noah is bare ass drunk. This is AFTER god has killed everyone on earth: babies, old people, pregnant women, children. Noah gets drunk and lies around with no clothes on. God c..."

it is an extraordinary passage, i agree. it is far from the only one in the Pentateuch. how about Deuteronomy (8 and 19 in particular) for justification of invasion/genocide?


Tom | 11 comments Lisa wrote: "I'm sorry but is this actually in the bible? noah getting drunk and all? That is in the Bible?"

that is in the bible. along with a whole load of outrageous stories. read the pentateuch - it is a real eyeopener. alternatively read my atheist version :-)
The Newer, More English Version


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