Harley wrote: "Chris wrote: "I still am haunted by Shirley Jackson's 'The Lottery.' ..."

well, I meant http://

Chris wrote: "I still am haunted by Shirley Jackson's 'The Lottery.' ..."

Hey Chris, I just listened to a podcast of Joyce Carol Oates being interviewed about Shirley Jackson. Fascinating. Apparently Oates has just finished a compendium about Jackson, which includes stories that were never published. She also has review essay in the current New York Review of Books of a new edition of We Have Always Lived in the Castle. The podcast is at ttp://www.nybooks.com/podcasts/

Also Barbara Kingsolver's book, Small Wonder -- really essays, but so very fun to read. The first essay 'Small Wonder' has to be a short story. True? Folklore?

I'm wondering this for Geoff "Who should do the 'moaning (or substitute your own word)' about short stories not being read or published?" And to Harley, let's do talk about all-time favorites. I still am haunted by Shirley Jackson's 'The Lottery.'
Anyone else subscribe to One Story? I love every few weeks just getting 'one story' in the mail. I read it immediately. Some good, some not-so-good, but always well written.

What she said ;)

Maybe we could start talking about all time favorites again.

I don't understand that comment.

Congratulations to Geoff. He is evidently not only a writer but a gifted psychoanalyst with a window into the thoughts and motivations of others. Who would have thunk it.

What I'm getting at is that the short story is in the same boat as poetry: its readership is small, and grows smaller when you subtract the people who also write it. And this is the way it's going to be, until there's a change in how people read.

As soon as you put words to paper, you start limiting your audience in one way or another.

As to the quality of short stories these days, well, I like bashing MFA programs as much as the next guy, but there's still a lot of good work being done out there.

I can't speak for Andrew, but it does seem clear to me that moaning (or substitute your own word) about people not reading or buying short stories is utterly pointless. (I say this having committed some of the moaning myself.) It's especially pointless and off-putting when a writer does it because what he's really saying is, "I should be more famous and loved!" That's gross and tiresome and condescending and will inevitably make people run the other way, however the sentiment might be admixed with genuine concern about the state of the art.

I think all of us who are writing "literature" have to admit to ourselves that we're involved in an activity that's bound to seem retrograde to the culture at large. Reading is an "old-fashioned" way to consume stories. People can't be cajoled or shamed into reading better fiction, and they certainly won't be convinced by our whining about why they're so crude and stupid.

I appreciate Andrew's use of the vernacular in speaking of the "death" of the short story("...(it) ain't dead ,it's only sleeping.")I am curious ,however, why he believes some of us are "moaning" about it's death,when in the next line he rightly suggests the problem is the "short story simply doesn't sell."
While I shouldn't speak for others, I'm fairly confident our "moanings'are about the very same thing.

Andrew, I was the one who mentioned the 'short shorts' article, but I followed your link to it anyway and found that he had really changed the article. I have a copy of the original article and I'm now interested in comparing this one with the original. It was always about short, short stories and their use as a cop-out, but I think most of what he says about academic creative writing degrees is true. As the trite saying so aptly says, they've drunk the koolaid, so they can evaluate their own writing with a willing pen.
Someone mentioned the
questionable quality of the New Yorker stories and I agree, except that every so often there will be a John Updike story about which I exclaim 'Not him again.' and then when I've read the story - usually short -- I have to remind myself of why 'him again.'
There are still good 'story' tellers - even if they're old.

Oh, and Joseph, thanks for mentioning the storySouth essay. I found it here:

http://www.storysouth.com/fall2004/short...

Tsk, tsk; he's talking about flash fiction, not short stories. But still, many of the same points do hold. He identifies why a lot of short fiction is bad. And best of all, he links to this essay:

http://www.cosmoetica.com/D4-BS1.htm

Which, although it has an agenda of its own, pretty much eviscerates MFA programs, and shines the light on some obvious truths:
"....a lot of people, especially graduate students, don’t really have the self-confidence or even the reading ability to form their own critical judgements."

Indeed.

And I'm curious, frankly, having read some very bad MFA work: is it possible, in fact, to enter an MFA program and fail to get the degree?

I think not. No one in the academic world wants to deal with the inevitable appeals process that follows when you deny a degree in something as subjective as creative writing.

Moaning that the short story is dead is like moaning that poetry is dead: it ain't dead, it's only sleeping. The problem is simply that it doesn't sell.

So some bad fiction is published. It was ever so; there has always been more bad fiction than good fiction. This was never truer than during the pre-TV heyday of the short story, when the field was dominated by cheap, formulaic romance and pulp fiction.

Is anyone surprised at what has become of the short story? Unfortunately, I'm not. One needs only to check out the kind of writing that appeals to the average reader.Harlequin romance(the covers of which are arguably the best part) and intergallatic romance take the proverbial prize.

Fortunately, there is something the serious writer can take solace in. It's called the Future.
The Future is a discerning Lady,indeed. Her impatience with the mediocre is legendary.

I have a recurring dream. Feel free to make it your own. In it I picture two professors of English at Harvard,discussing literature.The older(and wiser) of the two looks perplexed. Who can blame him? He turns to the younger professor and shakes his head. "Shakespeare or Cavano," he says, "I simply cannot choose."

Best to all.

Yep, that unfortunately sums up a lot of them. Although sometimes the characters live in Manhattan. That's variety!

Geoff wrote: "Joseph wrote: "Just as disconcerting is the type of short story that gets published. Am I the only one who detects a preference for a kind of pro forma short story,quick on action and short on mean..."

The kind of stories the NEW YORKER seems to publish now are bland, about almost wealthy suburbanites who have schedules that are too full and whose only problem is a lack of sexual variety. I hate those stories.

Joseph, you are so right. Recently I referred this group to the following article by Jason Sanford, then fiction and nonfiction editor of Storysouth. It's a compelling essay entitled “Who Wears Short Shorts? Micro Stories and MFA Disgust” which is well worth reading (probably still on the web.) He makes similar points to yours, but goes further to write about the plethora of MFA's, conferences, and workshops that teach even mediocre writers how to write the first page so that more manuscripts get past the slush pile. Sounds silly, but how many times have you been told to make that first paragraph a hook? The other problem concerns literary magazines publishing work of colleagues, otherwise why the listings of other publications? I commend those that encourage first time writers, but they are few -- Glimmer Train being one of them. I congratulate you on your publication and am going to look for your stories to BUY. I reccently read Olive Kitteridge and was really disappointed. Such excellent prose construct to present such a dour, gloomy image of people. I don't think most people are as hopeless as her characters, and putting two of the old people in bed together may be realistic but not uplifting. Was it supposed to be shocking? Pulitzer?

Joseph wrote: "Just as disconcerting is the type of short story that gets published. Am I the only one who detects a preference for a kind of pro forma short story,quick on action and short on meaning?"

I would agree with the "pro forma" part of that, but not with the rest. I don't think you could accuse the typical 'New Yorker' story, for example, of being action-packed. Usually, quite the opposite. I rather think the typical MFA-inspired story (and this is a huge generalization, but I think generally true) is afraid of action.

But I find it difficult to say anything in general about the short stories being selected for publication; as with poems and novels, an occasional one is brilliant, and the rest are a hundred kinds of forgettable. The one thing I do find frustrating, in regard to the 'New Yorker' and 'Best American Short Stories' and other such large venues, is that they publish names rather than stories. When (for example) was the last time T.C. Boyle wrote a story worth reading? But they keep publishing him because people recognize the name and might be more likely to buy the issue/book.

I very much enjoyed Geoff's well written ,sad but true, commentary on the state of the short story here in America.While I have been fortunate to have had two collections selected for publication in the last two years, the short story is a hard sell.That's somewhat surprising, given today's reader's preference for the quick fix.Just as disconcerting is the type of short story that gets published. Am I the only one who detects a preference for a kind of pro forma short story,quick on action and short on meaning?It seems to me the parameters for deciding which stories do get published is set by the young MFA's who prefer action to meaning.
I'm curious what others think. Best.

Geoff wrote: "Unfortunately, I don't think short stories are going to get a lot of attention in America unless and until some publisher (one of the big boys) decides they've got a Raymond-Carver-like writer--i.e..."

That's very depressing, especially for the short story writer, but probably accurate now. I'm not sure it was true in the past - at least magazines that featured short stories and fiction mags in general used to thrive (Blackwoods, London Magazine etc here in the UK) - I think there was an appetite for stories that no longer exists. Due to TV, the net etc maybe?

It's very distressing to hear that members of an English department don't read. It's ludicrous, like a computer teacher not using the internet.

btw short stories get a lot more attention in the US than they do in the UK. Major magazines still carry them (eg New Yorker), there are so many prizes and outlets and anthologies produced, not so here...

Unfortunately, I don't think short stories are going to get a lot of attention in America unless and until some publisher (one of the big boys) decides they've got a Raymond-Carver-like writer--i.e., faux innovative but still readable by the everyman, "edgy," "timely"--that they will get behind and promote in a major way. Massive promotion of some cause celebre is the only way, I fear, that a short story writer is going to reach the consciousness of anything like a wide audience. It's my impression that American readers, even pretty well educated ones, won't trust literature unless the mechanism of the big publishing houses tells them it's safe for use.

Maybe I'm being too negative (it's Tuesday at work after a four-day weekend). But it's my hunch (based in part on being a member of a high-school English department whose "literate" members largely don't read) that we'll never see anything like a real resurgence of the short story in America. (And was there actually ever a moment when the short story mattered to the average American? If the average American in 1950 owned a book by O'Connor and Hemingway, were there any other short stories on his shelf?) As Andrew said, that kind of literacy just isn't out there in large numbers.

It looks like I've found a bunch of like-minded people! My favourite short story writers are Carver, Hemingway, Flannery O'Connor, Annie Proulx and Raymond Chandler. I also love reading the flash fiction collections edited by James Thomas et al that feature about 80 or so pieces by different writers. Each volume is a wonderful ride through a range of styles, genres, approaches etc.

Well, I'm doing my part. I had an appointment with my doctor this morning and we talked of writing and reading. He said he enjoys fiction but doesn't have time. I said -- short stories. He reads historical fiction however. I can think of some individual historical fiction stories, but do any of you know of authors who specialize in that vein? I'd love to give him some suggestions.

Beth said,"You're right, Andrew...I, too, would think short stories would be a great match for the fast-paced and overly full lives people are leading. We'll all have to re-plant the forgotten seeds of "the short story" with friends, family and co-workers and see if we can rejuvenate interest in a forgotten treasure."

Yes, yes, yes!

Honestly, I think this is a problem related to an overall decline in literacy.

Literacy rates are higher now than in the heyday of the short story (pre-TV), but it's not the same literacy. People are literate in specialized ways; you can read all about computers, for example, or marketing surveys or operations theory, but still have weak literacy when it comes to, well, actual literature.

Witness a recent discussion I read, in which someone defended bloated, 150,000 word fantasy novels on the grounds that 75,000 words just isn't enough for you to get to know a character.

Short stories demand a kind of attention that many people aren't prepared to give them.

To Andrew and Beth, well said. A few years ago, Jason Sanford, then fiction and nonfiction editor of Storysouth wrote a compelling essay on “Who Wears Short Shorts? Micro Stories and MFA Disgust” which is well worth reading (probably still on the web.) Short story writers need to understand and push the writing of both short and short, short stories. I don't know why we keep talking about the need for them in our 'fast-paced' world and don't take action. There are some new venues (One Story comes to mind and of course ezines.) But somehow the need doesn't translate to editors of main-stream and literary magazines. Did you ever get the feeling while reading the bios at the back of literary magazines that they seem to publish each other's work? At one time I purchased magazines, such as Red Book, just for the stories. I think many people would not even realize they have an interest in the stories. It's my guess that the marketers who conduct polls and focus groups also interpret them, and their interpretations have caused these venues to stop publishing stories. It's always about the bottom line. I'm going to read your stories, Andrew. I have some of my own, but no site yet.

Andrew wrote: "It seems most writer's of short stories...

You're right, Andrew...I, too, would think short stories would be a great match for the fast-paced and overly full lives people are leading. We'll all have to re-plant the forgotten seeds of "the short story" with friends, family and co-workers and see if we can rejuvenate interest in a forgotten treasure.

It seems most writer's of short stories have been forced to the back of the bus.That includes some pretty good writer's like Alice Munro, Raymond Carver, James Joyce, wonderful Flannery and Ernest himself.

With the disappearance of fiction from mainstream magazines, the short story fell on hard times.

You would think it the perfect form for our times. You can read a short story on your way to work (unless you're driving, I guess), or on your lunch, or whenever you get a little time. But readers now prefer to be swept up in some huge, ongoing (bloated) story, preferably in a setting far from our reality.

Gabrielle wrote: "Personally, I think William Trevor's best stories are found in AFTER RAIN and THE HILL BACHELORS. CHEATING AT CANASTA is a pretty good volume, too.

I love James Joyce and Kafka.

I haven't read J..."

The Hill Bachelors is a great volume of stories (Trevor is always good, but this is one of this best). I've written a short article on it for beginning writers which may be of interest:
http://www.alanbeard.net/mynonfiction.ht...

D H Lawrence's best work, I think, can be found in his short stories. And yes I agree Mansfield should be better known. Recent collections I've read and liked are David Constantine's Under the Dam
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/124...
and Uwem Akpan's Say You're One of Them (especially the shorter pieces).
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/539...

It's a shame about Katharine Mansfield. Although my speciality in grad school was 20th century American Lit., I have always enjoyed fine writing.Mansfield's work certainly belongs in that category. If you haven't, read "A Cup of Tea."I think it's one of her better stories.
It's not only Katharine who is getting short-changed. It seems most writer's of short stories have been forced to the back of the bus.That includes some pretty good writer's like Alice Munro, Raymond Carver, James Joyce, wonderful Flannery and Ernest himself. Those of us who write short stories know how difficult a task it can be.Poe set out the requirements for the short story in his Philosophy of Composition and the idea of a "single effect."Gogol came up with a similar concept at about the same time.
If you don't mind, I'd like to recommend a wonderful writer of short stories who has been writing for publication for only two years and whose accomplishments in that time period are thought to be remarkable by fellow writers(two books, recognition from major league literary critics and top flight literary magazines like Glimmer Train.) The person to whom I am referring in such extravagant terms is none other than myself.I blush at my own audacity,but this is certainly not a profession for shrinking violets.(Are the non shrinking variety more bold?)
At any rate I'd be honored to have those kindred spirits who love the short story check me out at some point and let me know what you think.Profanity discouraged. Best.

Personally, I think William Trevor's best stories are found in AFTER RAIN and THE HILL BACHELORS. CHEATING AT CANASTA is a pretty good volume, too.

I love James Joyce and Kafka.

I haven't read Joyce Carol Oates in a long time. I found her writing "cold" about ten years ago, so didn't read anything else. If I can find "Family," I'll give it a try, though.

"The Horse Dealer's Daughter" is fantastic. Admittedly I haven't read enough Lawrence. I don't remember "Prelude" but I have her complete works & will dig it out. I'll need to get a hold of some William Trevor too, it seems. Any suggestions here?

Others I like are Raymond Carver ("Errand"), Vladimir Nabokov ("The Vane Sisters"), Kafka, F. Scott Fitzgerald & James Joyce. I'm not a fan of Lorrie Moore. To me she's like Amy Hempel, very inconsistent. Will pull off one great story for every ten she writes.

Anyone read Joyce Carol Oates's "Family"? Haunting.

Unfortunately, you are right, Zybahn. My writing partner, who is a dean, hired a new English professor and he (the dean) came to find out that the new professor didn't even know who Katherine Mansfield was.

I have this book: http://www.amazon.com/Collected-Katherin...

and I love it because it contains all of Katherine Mansfield's stories.

I agree, "The Daughters of the Late Colonel" is brilliant, as is "The Garden Party," "Miss Brill," and "Prelude." I think "Prelude" is my favorite Mansfield story.

I also like the short stories of D.H. Lawrence, in particular "The Horse Dealer's Daughter."

Sadly, Katherine Mansfield is nearly forgotten. "The Daughters of the Late Colonel" is brilliant & can be found online here: http://www.classicreader.com/book/2045/1...

Aside from Chekhov, Flannery O'Connor & Frank O'Connor & the rest, I enjoy some of the more obscure short story writers, like Donald Barthelme, Gilbert Sorrentino, Robert Coover. And of course there is the genius madman Nikolai Gogol: http://www.iblist.com/author1917.htm.

Terrific! Let us know what you think. :)

Gabrielle, Harley, and Mosca,
Thank you so much for your input. I'm now inspired to read Lorrie Moore, William Trevor, and Katherine Mansfield.

Harley wrote: "Gabrielle wrote: "I'm not fond of the direction in which the short story seems to be moving today. The upper class, ennui-ridden person, who just thinks he/she has problems. I find it boring."

I l..."

I have to admit, I haven't read enough Lorrie Moore to be a good judge of her work, but I do know my writing partner, whose views I share, just loves Lorrie Moore's work.

Gabrielle wrote: "I'm not fond of the direction in which the short story seems to be moving today. The upper class, ennui-ridden person, who just thinks he/she has problems. I find it boring."

I like your phrase "full and rich." I think Lorrie Moore is another dependable author who manages that. I've been discovering more authors by reading some of the anthologies, which include a wider cultural mix. Recent favorite reads: Sherman Alexie's "What You Pawn I Will Redeem," Katie Chase's "Man and Wife," Claire Davis' "Labors of the Heart," Danielle Evans' "Virgins," Jess Row's "The Secrets of Bats," Miroslav Penkov's "Buying Lenin," Eileen Pollack's "The Bris," Marisa Silver's "What I Saw From Where I Stood," Barbara Klein Moss'" "Rugweaver. A bunch of those are from the 2001 Best American Short Stories.

Sorry -- I got carried away! I'll look for William Trevor.

Gabrielle wrote: "Does anyone have a favorite William Trevor story?"

So many of his are so good, it's hard to pick. The first short story of his I read was "In Love with Ariadne" and I was instantly hooked. Another of his I really liked was "Matilda's England"

So glad to find fellow William Trevor fans in here.

Does anyone have a favorite William Trevor story? So far, besides the novel THE STORY OF LUCY GAULT, my favorite "William Trevor's" are READING TURGENEV and MY HOUSE IN UMBRIA, but those are novellas, so I guess those don't count.

For short stories, I'd have to go with those in AFTER RAIN.

Anything by William Trevor, Carson McCullers, or Louise Erdrich

Rose wrote: "Yes, it looks like I have a lot of reading to do. I have just learned to appreciate short stories through the recent Pulitzer winners."

I'm looking forward to reading OLIVE KITTERIDGE. So glad it won the Pulitzer this year.

William Trevor, Anton Chekhov, and Katherine Mansfield are my all time favorites. Also like Angela Carter, Tobias Wolff, Daphne du Maurier, Edgar Allen Poe, Alice Munro. I also like Flannery O'Conner and I love Faulkner's "A Rose for Emily." I think it's a true masterpiece. I'm not generally fond of Hemingway, but "Hills Like White Elephants" is as good as a story gets. I think I like Hemingway's stories better than his novels.

With a few exceptions, such as Alice Munro and William Trevor, I'm not fond of the direction in which the short story seems to be moving today. The upper class, ennui-ridden person, who just thinks he/she has problems. I find it boring. Perhaps I'm just reading the wrong stories! LOL I don't know. I just know I like my stories full and rich.

Yes, it looks like I have a lot of reading to do. I have just learned to appreciate short stories through the recent Pulitzer winners.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned O. Henry (oops, I stand corrected). In addition to many of the others previously mentioned in other posts, he is one of my all-time favorites! Rose, thanks for finding this group...I really like it :-)

I always feel bad when I dislike a collection of stories--as if I've been grumpy and now feel remorseful--but I just kept getting mad at that collection.

Too weird -- I saw this reference to "Red Ant House" while fooling around on the computer after lunch and before getting back to reading the story (spooky music) "Red Ant House" in the Best American etc. 2002 collection.

I just couldn't get through Cummins's 'Red Ant House.' Or, rather, I got through it, but only with a sense of duty and by laying it aside for a few days between stories until my store of good will had been refilled. She's enormously talented, but every story felt terribly mannered and calculated to achieve an effect. For me, the stories were way too conscious of themselves as art and demonstrated whatever the opposite of "negative capability" is.

Oh yes...and Flannery O' Conner and Hemingway, both of whom may be obvious picks, but I'd be remiss if I didn't include them.

(Updike's short stories are a little hit or miss for me--I often prefer his novels--though his writing is always fantastic...for example, the opening paragraph of his story "In Football Season":

"Do you remember a fragrance girls acquire in autumn? As you walk beside them after school, they tighten their arms about their books and bend their heads forward to give a more flattering attention to your words, and in the little intimate area thus formed, carved into the clear air by an implicit crescent, there is a complex fragrance woven of tobacco, powder, lipstick, rinsed hair, and that perhaps imaginary and certainly elusive scent that wool, whether in the lapels of a jacket or the nap of a sweater, seems to yield when the cloudless fall sky like the blue bell of a vacuum lifts toward itself the glad exhalations of all things. This fragrance, so faint and flirtatious on those afternoon walks through the dry leaves, would be banked a thousandfold on the dark slop of the stadium when, Friday nights, we played football in the city.")