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message 1: by Mags (last edited Oct 22, 2011 05:02AM) (new)

Mags | 22 comments Mod
Do you believe in God and if so why or why not.

not trying to offend people or convert people


message 2: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Supposed contradictions in the Bible.

To someone who does not know the Bible very well, this man would appear to be very knowledgeable and intelligent.
However I do know the Bible very well. And alot of these points are nit picky and a real stretch, just from glancing at them. However, I will humor you and explain some.
I'm reminded of Romans 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,"
Nuff said.

I had to laugh at his attempt to discredit anyone that might argue his points. The way he puts it sounds ridiculous indeed, but I would have to disagree with what he's saying for the most part.

"1. "That is to be taken metaphorically."

If you look at any book, the author is not always being literal. How boring would that be? People use sarcasm and hyperbole to illustrate things sometimes. God does this as well. Well not necessarily sarcasm, but he says some things that are not to be taken literally. For instance when Peter asked Jesus in Matthew 18, how often he was supposed to forgive someone.
"Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." Matthew 18:21-22
Now Jesus didn't mean you literally had to forgive someone 490x and then it's ok to not forgive them. It was an overstatement to illustrate that you are always to forgive someone.
So, yeah, sometimes it's not being exactly literal.


"2. "There was more there than...." This is used when one verse says "there was a" and another says "there was b," so they decide there was "a" AND "b"--which is said nowhere. This makes them happy, since it doesn't say there WASN'T "a+b." But it doesn't say there was "a+b+little green martians." This is often the same crowd that insists theirs is the ONLY possible interpretation (i.e., only "a") and the only way. I find it entertaining they they don't mind adding to verses."

This is pretty absurd actually. Most books of the Bible had different physical authors, and therefore different perspectives. That's not to say that what they wrote is inaccurate or conflicting. Just different.
For instance, the 4 Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) were written by those men. They all followed Jesus and wrote about many of the same things, but from different perspectives. Matthew chose to focus on Jesus, the Messiah of the Jew's prophecy. Mark - Jesus' humanity. Luke - Savior of the world. John - the Divine Word of God.
So they focused on different things from the same events that would emphasize those things. That's not to say that what they recorded conflicts with the others, just that they found one thing more important to that message.
You will see this by looking at any 2 or more newspaper articles about the same event. They are reporting on the exact same thing, but they chose different words or different key things to describe. That doesn't mean the accounts conflict.
I will address an example later with the last words of Christ on the cross.

"3. "It has to be understood in context." I find this amusing because it comes from the same crowd that likes to push likewise extracted verses that support their particular view. Often it is just one of the verses in the contradictory set which is supposed to be taken as THE TRUTH when, if you add more to it, it suddenly becomes "out of context." How many of you have gotten JUST John 3:16 (taken out of all context) thrown at you?"

This is also absurd. Of course you have to examine the context. You can't turn on a movie for 2 minutes somewhere in the middle and expect to know what's going on. The same is true with the Bible.
Sometimes one verse does prove a point, but adding verses to it will not diminish it's meaning. Not if what that person was saying was accurate about the verse in the first place.
Many times, however, you've got to look at the whole section to know what is being said. Sometimes it's referencing other areas of the Bible. Sometimes, Jesus was speaking in parable. Sometimes the verses are words of humans and not God. Sometimes they are the words of Satan.
So to say that context is irrelevant is quite absurd.
I'm not really sure what point he's trying to make with John 3:16, though. I'm not sure how that can be taken out of context. ?

"4. "There was just a copying/writing error."

This, I would have to agree with. There are no copying/writing errors.

"5. "That is a miracle." Naturally. That is why it is stated as fact."

Uh, yeah! Jesus did miracles. Kinda part of his earthly ministry. I'm not sure what the problem is here. God is all powerful, so miracles are not really a stretch for Him.

"6. "God works in mysterious ways." A useful dodge when the speaker doesn't understand the conflict between what the Bible SAYS and what they WISH it said."

Again I say, Uh, yeah! They are mysterious to us, because we are not God. We as humans cannot even fully understand God. And we certainly cannot presume to know why or how He chooses to work in whatever way He does.
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8
That's not to say that is part of any explanation to any "contradictions" because there aren't any.

And lastly, sometimes things in the Bible will not make sense to someone who does not believe the Bible. Because they do not understand the things of God.
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

Ok, sorry, just had to get that out of the way.
I see alot of things in these "examples" that are really just not understood correctly. I will probably just go through the most obvious and easily explainable for the moment. I'm sure that given a little time and study I could explain them all, but as I said I've got other things to do :)


(Apparently, it's going to have to be a 2-parter)


message 3: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
The one that sticks out as most obvious to me is the "contradiction" of Jesus' being lesser than or equal to God.
"JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

God is a trinity. 3 persons in 1. It is a concept that does not make alot of sense, humanly speaking because we are limited. God is not.
God consists of God the Father, God the Son(Jesus), and God the Holy Spirit.
They are all equal but different.
I've seen an illustration of an egg that explains it pretty well. There are three parts to an egg. The yolk, the white, and the shell. All parts make up the egg and have different qualities, but it is incomplete without one of those parts.
When Jesus says "my Father is greater than I" He does not mean greater as in importance, but in position. As in God the Father was up in Heaven and Jesus humbled himself and came to earth.
This explains it better than I can, I think: http://www.forananswer.org/John/Jn14_...

This is not a contradiction.


The supposed contradiction in the creation accounts in Genesis 1 and 2.
This is actually quite easy. Genesis 2 is not a chronological account of creation. That was already stated in chapter 1. There is no reason to go back and restate it.
Genesis 2 is lacking most of the account of creation, so you cannot say that it is indeed an account of creation. This chapter is focusing on Adam himself. The verses that supposedly contradict chapter one,
GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
These are not about the creation of anything but Eve a little later. God says He doesn't want man to be alone so He brings the animals before him(the animals which he made "out of the ground" already) to be named. And then in the next verses he creates Eve as Adam's "help meet"
Verse 19 is not referring to the specific time that God actually created the animals. The point is this is when they were named.
Again, this explains better than I can.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/artic... Scroll down to about half way down the page, it gives the actual explanation very clearly.
(I will most likely refer to other websites for more thorough explanations throuought. Honestly, if I had the patience and ability to be a teacher, I would be one :) I'm aware that while my explanations make perfect sense to me, they do not always to someone else.)

Again, this is not a contradiction.

This is also an explanation for the later supposed contradiction of the order of creation in the same chapters.

And then he says:
"How orderly were things created?
#1: Step-by-step. The only discrepancy is that there is no Sun or Moon or stars on the first three "days."
#2: God fixes things up as he goes. The first man is lonely, and is not satisfied with animals. God finally creates a woman for him. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)"

Again, chapter 2 is not an account of creation.
If you read the end of Chapter 1 verse 27 it says "So God created man in his own image in the image of God created he him; male and FEMALE created he them."
Chapter 1 is chronological. More of a summary.
Chapter 2 is topical. It goes back and gives specifics.
God forgets nothing.

He also says:
"How satisfied with creation was he?
#1: God says "it was good" after each of his labors, and rests on the seventh day, evidently very satisfied.
#2: God has to fix up his creation as he goes, and he would certainly not be very satisfied with the disobedience of that primordial couple. (funny thing that an omniscient god would forget things)"

Same explanation. God didn't forget anything. He merely goes back in chapter 2 and expounds on what He's already said.
And God didn't require rest. He did it as an example for us to follow. Which we do. Most people generally get at least one day off from work, yes?


Next:

"Moses' personality
NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."
NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."

Really? Do I really need to explain that all people have emotions, even the most timid of them?

I'm actually a pretty shy person in most new surroundings. I always sort of keep to myself until I feel comfortable. But I get mad. I've had to get up and give speeches. I was even a room leader at school. Not something I asked for, but I did it. Which required leading specific meetings of about 20ppl. Not really something I enjoyed, but I did it.
So he was "meek"? So what? He got over it.
He tried to refuse when God called him and then we hardly hear about his meekness after that. God made him a leader and he rose to the occasion.

I'm not sure why this is listed as a contradiction at all.


And:

"Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

This is what I was saying before, different perspectives of the same event. Please show me where any of these verses say that these things were ALL that Jesus said? It doesn't.
In Matthew he says "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?' and then later he "cried with a loud voice" again. It never says those were his last words.
Mark is pretty much the same account of Matthew as far as Jesus' words.
In Luke, Jesus "cried with a loud voice" (again, as it says in Matthew and Mark) and said "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:"
But before that he also says, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." and "Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise" to the thief on the other cross.
Those things aren't recorded in the other gospels, but that doesn't mean they are inaccurate or that they weren't said. They just weren't recorded everywhere.
In John, Jesus says "Woman, behold thy son!", "Behold thy mother!", "I thirst.", and "It is finished."
It's not that John was wrong and everyone else was right. Or that John was right and everyone else was wrong, but these are the things John chose to incorporate in his writing.

None of these words are essential to the doctrine of Christianity, but they all tell us different things about Jesus.
The words Matthew and Mark chose to incorporate show Christ's agony at God turning His back on Jesus when Jesus took on the sin of the world.
The words in Luke show that Christ willingly died for us, that he asked forgiveness for the people who crucified him, and that He was able to offer salvation to the thief who hadn't done even one good thing as a new believer.
The words in John show how Jesus was taking care of Mary, that he was thirsty(as in, human), and that it was over.
None of these words contradict any other. And none of the passages state that the words recorded were Christ's only or last words.
The only thing that is essential is the event of Christ dying on the cross. A fact with is recorded pretty much identically in all 4 books.

Again, not a contradiction.

Next:
"The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
"In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father."

This also goes along with
"Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli."


First of all, the genealogies in Matthew and Luke are not the same genealogy.
Matthew is the genealogy from Jesus to Abraham. Luke is from Jesus to Adam. (which, I know it says above)
Now obviously the genealogies are going to be the same up to a certain point, but they split off somewhere around the middle because Luke also shows the heritage of Mary, while Matthew is showing Joseph's.
This isn't contradictory information, it's different information about different people.
Jesus in order to be who he claimed to be - the Messiah- had to have a physical claim (Mary) and a legal claim (Joseph).
Jesus could not have an earthly father physically because He had to bypass the sin nature that we inherit from our father, so that he could be our Savior. However he needed an earthly father (a legal father) to fulfill the prophecy of being the Messiah. Therefore Joseph being his earthly father but not physical father fulfills those requirements.

These genealogies do not conflict.

Also with the father of Joseph, Heli was his father-in-law, not his actual father. Notice it does not say Heli "begat" Joseph as it does of Jacob.


And I'm not even sure why this one is listed as a contradiction:

"When second coming?
MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."

Am I missing something? because the verses look pretty consistent to me.

I'm actually surprised I didn't see the "contradiction" of Jesus turning the water into wine at the wedding but then saying how we should stay away from alcohol in Proverbs.
It's not a contradiction, of course, the wine at the wedding was grape juice, not alcohol.


Well, I think that's enough for now. As I said, there are no contradictions in the Bible. There are explanations for everything that seemingly conflicts. Perhaps I'll go through the rest later sometime. Right now, I'm tired and Psych is waiting :)

And no, I did not forget about the prophecies, but I'll be honest, I haven't studied them as much as I probably should. I will definitely get back to you on it, but I want to do it as accurately as possible. And given that Christmas is in a few days, It might not be for a week or so.
But I promise I won't forget.


message 4: by ♥ Rachel♥ (last edited Dec 22, 2010 09:07PM) (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments "Please indicate where there has been a formation of a new species from anything."
Wolf to dog.

"That still doesn't explain it's origin."
The origin of where all the stuff came from? We don't claim to know. On the other hand, we don't claim that there's an invisible man in the sky who created everything, yet doesn't know simple things like the fact that bats are mammals. By the way, he isn't very observable, measurable, or repeatable. ;P

"because I believe it's not true, why would I research it?"
Er, because it's rather important to know both sides of a debate to fully understand it...?

"It was just there all of a sudden.
Something from nothing."

Yet you believe God was always around.

"He always was and always will be."
So, plug in 'The stuff our universe is made of' into that sentence instead of the 'He'.

"It's still a theory. They looked at the information they have and made guesses about what happened. It has never been proven. Even the article admits, it's not the only possibility."
Of course not. But it has hard, well accepted evidence backing it up. I see no angels fluttering about, or bushes on fire but not burning up.

"It was drilled into my head in elementary...it's also here:"
Oh. Your school > mine as to definitions and such, then :P

"Believing in the Big Bang takes faith."
But it fits facts. The Bible does not always, and the creation story just makes little sense in general.

"God is all powerful. He can do anything. It's not a stretch to believe that he created the universe. It is however a stretch to assume that everything evolved from something that has yet to be defined or it's origin explained."
It's not a stretch to believe in an all-mighty being?
It is not a stretch because evolution happens all the time.

"Nothing is becoming a new species here. So it's faster than we are? So what? Diseases have always been faster than we are."
Right, I'll go with the crying.
Clearly, the virus is evolving so that it is stronger than the old medicine - it is bettering itself.
The peppered moth evolution thing, although false, is a clear example of how things gradually change their features to survive better in their environment. Over time, more and more features are changed until it becomes a new species.

"I have yet to see something that is actually getting better to support evolution."
Well, for example, more and more people are being born with HIV and type II diabetes resistance. That is a rather good thing from my perspective.
Our brains are shrinking because people are specializing, and therefore don't need all that we now have.
Sickle cell anemia originated in Africa, and this genetic disorder, while problematic in modern society, protected people from malaria.
Lactose intolerance is rising as we don't need the milk of other animals for survival.

"Because people used to live for a few hundred years. Now it's only around 80."
You mean, Abraham lived for several hundred years? Yeah, no.

"But that's accountable by different circumstances of living, not evolution."
What does evolution care, you've already reproduced either way. And that should have been my original answer >.<

"Because I have yet to see an example."
I can't be the first one who's mentioned the above examples to you, so no, I'd say you dismiss things. I know I used to do that :P

"it hasn't been proven or accepted by everyone."
Have you heard of the Flat Earth Society? They refuse to acknowledge the spherical shape of the Earth :P However, I'd say that's a rather proven fact.
(Also, it's based off your Bible...just saying.)

"This man was an evolutionist and he expected 50 ft of dust."
Not everyone is necessarily well-informed, either. That's why I don't really like when people use blogs or such as references - the information can so easily be false :/

"I suppose I shall have to research this some more."
Ight :P

"I was doing a report on the brain not too long ago and the information was practically non existent."
...What were you focusing on? Because no, there aren't cures for the diseases, but as far as I know, the causes are identified....

"I'm not the one asking for proof."
In a debate, any claim you make is your burden to prove - that's just the way it works :P
And, if you believe something without proof, that's really not a good thing. :P

"What about all the pediatric cancer?"
Bad mutations that make them more susceptible to the cancer - my own private theory is that, since we're treating the cancer so well, we're allowing the genetic setup that makes it easier for cells to become cancerous or something, to become more widespread. However, that's not really verified or anything, so...:P

"but shouldn't carcinogens be getting less proliferate?"
Well, no, we're packing them into the atmosphere more than ever before. And, again, I think we're unevolving ourselves. :P

"Which means there is no observable proof. It's all theory."
...

"Not at all."
Really? :/ I've heard a bunch of people talking about it :P It's sad, I've always wanted to be a redhead xP
But, that aside, I've brought up better examples this time, so there. x]
(Smiley OD much? o.O)

"This isn't an example of a new species."
Er, no, he was human.

"I was asking about species that died out."
Actually, you claimed that because our organs work perfectly to keep us alive, there must have been a creator.

"And neither can the big bang answer that."
It doesn't attempt to answer that...?

"God, as I've already said always was."
Why would you believe that?

"But where does the order come from with those comets colliding?"
The comets just brought water...?

"But the way they're explained does not account for how they came to be."
Because science does not pretend to know.

"it would take alot of faith if we did not know how it came about."
No, you'd just be like, "Oh, the baby is about this long with this color eyes and these features? Cool." You wouldn't question it turning out that way. Evolution could have taken a different turn and we would never have known. It's just like any other type of history, with causes and effects that you can question all you want...but in the end, what happened, happened.

"citation?"
http://news.discovery.com/tech/synthe...
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/0...

"But that's still not starting with nothing."
It's heading that way :P

"No evidence to satisfy you. I have all the evidence I need. Faith is a big part of it."
...Why? I mean, there's not even a place for them - as you've said, we've mapped out the brain. What evidence would you have for it, aside from faith?
And if you're just going off blind faith, that's stupid. Blindly accepting anything is stupid, but especially stuff like this.

"But who's to say some other planet does not have our environment? Or at least an environment suitable for life of some sort? Science does not have all the answers, and they haven't been everywhere."
I didn't say there wasn't life elsewhere. Have you not heard of the whole Mars thing?

"In fact they've been wrong about this all along:
http://www.nasa.gov/topics/universe/feat..."
Wrong about arsenic being poisonous? It is to us. I'm not really sure what you're getting at. The fact that scientists can admit that they don't know everything and are willing to accept new data? I mean, that's what makes science so believable - the fact that everything has to be proven, and things can be falsified and stuff.
Also, it's not like their DNA is that different - arsenic is in the same period as phosphorus and all.

"Considering I take God at His Word, the odds are pretty good I'm interpreting it correctly. I believe the Bible 100%. I'm not saying you have to, but I do.
I'm confused about the "any book yet" comment."
...Perhaps this will explain my comment better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7y...

"http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/..."
I knew National Geographic was my favorite for a reason ^-^ Read that article, my doubts remain therein.

"http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=19382"
Also doesn't seem too solid.

"No, but it effects how people interpret what they read."
...Look, if I say, "I believe in God!" then say, "I don't believe in God!" 5 seconds later, there's not really much interpretation can mess up.

"Any particular ones in mind?"
How about, just the ones I've mentioned thus far; that is, who is the father of Joseph, and the order of creation (the top and bottom here: http://www.infidels.org/library/moder... )
And also, the bat as a bird ( http://www.infidels.org/library/moder... ) and Earth as a sphere, not a circle ( http://www.infidels.org/library/moder... ).

"no one wanted to believe it because Rome was the world power."
So? At the time, it didn't even take a genius to realize it was heading that way. Rome wasn't doing too well already.
Not to mention, he could have just noticed that every other empire seemed to end up falling.


message 5: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
♥ Rachel♥ wrote: ""Please indicate where there has been a formation of a new species from anything."
Wolf to dog.

"That still doesn't explain it's origin."
The origin of where all the stuff came from? We don't clai..."


Um..Wolves are in the dog family. Not a different species.

Yes, exactly. It cannot account for the origin, therefore it is fallible.

Well, not getting into the bat thing right now, maybe later.
But yes, God knows everything.
That's true, God isn't measurable, observable, and repeatable. But then, I never said God was science, did I?

"Er, because it's rather important to know both sides of a debate to fully understand it...?"
Yes, I probably should at least know the basics, but I know it's not true and quite frankly I'm very busy most of the time. I have SO many things I want to learn about before I spend valuable time on this. Sorry ;)

"Yet you believe God was always around."
Yes, because as I said, He is self-existent and all powerful. It's who He is. Can you say the same of those singularies (did I spell that right?)?

"So, plug in 'The stuff our universe is made of' into that sentence instead of the 'He'."

uh...not quite. The universe is a creation and had a definite beginning. Even the big bang recognizes that.

"Of course not. But it has hard, well accepted evidence backing it up. I see no angels fluttering about, or bushes on fire but not burning up."
I'm not surprised you don't see bushes on fire and not burning. Is God asking you to lead His children out of captivity?
You might not see angels, but I do. Not in the physical sense of course, but I definitely see them.
And I don't think they flutter :)

"Oh. Your school > mine as to definitions and such, then :P"
No. I did provide an outside source to show it matches up.

"But it fits facts. The Bible does not always, and the creation story just makes little sense in general."
Not really. It "fits facts" because you are going in assuming the Bible is inaccurate and the big bang is true.
Creation makes perfect sense. As does the Bible if you know how to read it.

"It's not a stretch to believe in an all-mighty being?"
Not to me, no. Not when I see His actions and protection every day.

"It is not a stretch because evolution happens all the time"
Not that I've seen.

"Clearly, the virus is evolving so that it is stronger than the old medicine - it is bettering itself.
The peppered moth evolution thing, although false, is a clear example of how things gradua..."

I'm still seeing examples of micro evolution. Sorry.

"Well, for example, more and more people are being born with HIV and type II diabetes resistance. That is a rather good thing from my perspective.
Our brains are shrinking because people are specializing, and therefore don't n..."

All of these things are accountable to something other than evolution. Such as living habits, diet, environment, pollution, etc. Still not seeing anything that suggests evolution. Every generation has more and more genetic mutations, that doesn't mean we are developing into a new species, you just think it fits in with evolution. I do not.

"You mean, Abraham lived for several hundred years? Yeah, no."
Actually at the moment I forget how long Abraham lived, but yeah, in the Bible.
Even if you discount that, the average life right now isn't really all that long considering.

"I can't be the first one who's mentioned the above examples to you, so no, I'd say you dismiss things. I know I used to do that :P"
I dismiss things that do not line up with the Bible, yes.

No, I haven't heard of the Flat Earth Society if it's current. But you're right that is a proven fact.
No, the Bible does not teach the earth is flat. I've heard that said, and I've seen the "examples" about the four corners,etc. Not really lining up with a flat earth though.
If someone is trying to apply the Bible to say the earth is flat, they are wrong. Obviously.

"Not everyone is necessarily well-informed, either. That's why I don't really like when people use blogs or such as references - the information can so easily be false :/"
This is true. I would have to say the same of supposed science though. It's been wrong time and again until it was proven a different way.

"...What were you focusing on? Because no, there aren't cures for the diseases, but as far as I know, the causes are identified...."
It was on....I forget the specific topic just now, but I had to associate a disease with it - Parkinsons. And it wasn't just the cure that gave me problems, it was the actual physiology of the specific part I was researching as well as the physiology of the disease. Sorry, not very specific, but this is going back a few years.

"In a debate, any claim you make is your burden to prove - that's just the way it works :P
And, if you believe something without proof, that's really not a good thing. :P"

I admit, you're right on this. I have not researched these things as well as I should have. But as I said I'm busy with other things alot. And I really didn't count on debating ;)
But I will say this, these examples I gave you, as I said before, are not my primary reasons to believe what I do. They are just things I've heard and sort of tucked in the back of my mind as further evidence of what I already know to be true.
So just because I did not perhaps give you the best examples, does not mean there aren't good ones, it just means that at this present time, I'm not the best representative for them.
See, I can admit my error ;)

"Bad mutations that make them more susceptible to the cancer - my own private theory is that, since we're treating the cancer so well, w..."
That makes sense to me, it goes along with these super-bugs developing due to things like the anti-bacterial hand soaps and stuff. They are killing all the bacteria so our immune systems don't have a change to build up it's natural immunity very well.

"And, again, I think we're unevolving ourselves. :P"
Is that your personal opinion or part of evolution? Because doesn't it kind of contradict?

"Really? :/ I've heard a bunch of people talking about it :P It's sad, I've always wanted to be a redhead xP
But, that aside, I've brought up better examples this time, so there. x]
(Smiley OD much? o.O)"
LOL, I sort of wanted to be one too. But sorry, still not buying into your examples of evolution.

"Actually, you claimed that because our organs work perfectly to keep us alive, there must have been a creator."
And generally they do. I did not claim this was the case 100% of the time.
God made man perfectly with perfectly functioning organs. Man sinned and had to die as a result. He passed that little gem onto his son and his son and so on. With every passing generation we get further away from perfection, which is why we're seeing so many 'mutations' or genetic disorders. Some of us are just more unfortunate than others.

"Why would you believe that?"
Because I believe the Bible.
Any question you ask me like this is going to be the same answer. Just a warning.

"Because science does not pretend to know."
But they think they have the answer with the big bang and evolution. But as you say, they do not pretend to know the origin. Meaning, they admit that they don't know everything.
Evolution and the big bang are the way they chose to explain what see other than admitting that God created everything like the Bible says.
They've come up with these ideas because they 'fit' the evidence we have.
But assumptions are not always correct.
Personal example: I got in a car accident a while ago. Nothing serious, but bad enough. I was going straight and some guy turned left into me.
When the cops got there, their 'evidence' told them the opposite of what happened. I was the one who got the fine. Fair? I think not!
So, yeah. I'm not really putting alot of faith in what people assume. I'm putting my faith in what God says.

"It's just like any other type of history, with causes and effects that you can question all you want...but in the end, what happened, happened."
True. And my money's on God and Creation.

(ok, another 2 part post)


message 6: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
"But that's still not starting with nothing."
It's heading that way :P"

Yeah, that's....scary. But still, not with nothing, they'd be lost without starting materials and computers.
Still, scary.

"...Why? I mean, there's not even a place for them - as you've said, we've mapped out the brain. What evidence would you have for it, aside from faith?
And if you're just going off blind faith, that's stupid. Blindly accepting anything is stupid, but especially stuff like this."

Souls? Because, to me it's obvious. I don't need science to back that up. Why are humans different from animals? they have a soul.
Yes, I assume to you it would be blind faith. But to me, it's anything but blind.
It is possible to see something other than with your eyes, you know. You don't have to see, hear, smell, touch, or taste everything to know it's real.
I'm not sure how I could even explain how I know God is there to a person like yourself, honestly. I feel Him. Sometimes almost physically - it's that strong.
And really, without God, what is the point to all of this anyway? Life? Isn't that the big theological question? What is the meaning of life? or something to that effect. God is the meaning. He gives purpose and fellowship.
But I don't really expect you to understand what I'm talking about. Personal faith is just that. Personal.

"I'm not really sure what you're getting at."
Just that science has been and continues to be wrong and not have all the answers.

So that video is supposed to prove what? That there are different religions? And that they conflict with each other?
I'm well aware of this.
That there's no way to be sure?
I am. As are many people who believe as I do.
I don't know if I can adequately explain this either. When you accept Jesus, He lives in you in a sense. You have this immense feeling of peace and...truth, I guess you could say. You don't get that from any religion. That only comes from God Himself.
Religion is not God. The Bible is God. He equates Himself with his word. All those not following it are wrong. Rituals do nothing as far as salvation goes. They are vain, the Bible says. Works don't save you, faith does.
Can I logically prove to you that my faith is true? Probably not to your satisfaction, no. Because faith isn't about logic. It's faith. It's believing in what you cannot see.
So, as far as all the different religions go, I do not care what someone chooses to call himself religion-wise, I'm interested in what they believe.

"I didn't say there wasn't life elsewhere. Have you not heard of the whole Mars thing?"
Yes, I have.
No, but you said our universe was so vastly different because of life, etc. Or something to that effect. What's to say another(or multiple) universe somewhere doesn't have our same qualities?
And if it does, what are the statistical odds for that happening!?! You know, by chance.

Yes, I'm aware that the world is going to try to discredit the assumed finding of the Ark and the chariot wheel. That is Satan's plan after all - discredit anything remotely related to God.
Do I believe they are actually what these people claim? Not 100%, no. I have not been there to see for myself. But I think the chances are pretty darn good.
Because the fact is, they found a very large boat, that ironically enough fits the exact dimension of the ark, on top of a mountain.
I do not believe in coincidences.
Early Christians made a shrine? Really? Did they have nothing better to do with their time?
I might believe that today, but back then people didn't have alot of spare time. Certainly not enough to construct something like that.
But as I said, I cannot be 100% positive, having never seen it.

"...Look, if I say, "I believe in God!" then say, "I don't believe in God!" 5 seconds later, there's not really much interpretation can mess up."
True, but that's not from the Bible ;)
I've already gone through a list of supposed contradictions.
There aren't any in the Bible.
I'll look into the bat one and the shape of the earth one, later. It's, once again, very late.

"So? At the time, it didn't even take a genius to realize it was heading that way..."
Point being, it was an outrageous and specific prophecy that happened.
But I'll get into the prophecy stuff later.

For now, good night :)


message 7: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments Oh, I didn't even notice your contradictions post. :P Well I don't really have the time (read: I'm too lazy) to reply to all that now...I will tomorrow or something though :P


message 8: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Haha, that's ok, b/c I really didn't feel like having to think too much right now. lol


message 9: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments ...You know...Sunday. Today is Christmas Eve, and tomorrow is Christmas, so I'mma be lazy even though I'm not even Christian. But Sunday I shall actually do it. '-_-


message 10: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments Wow, well, that took me about long enough to respond - I remember that I read through your post, got pissed off at a part - in fact, the only part I intend to reply to here - and was going to think of a good way to reply, then forgot about it. Lovely.

Anyway...

"I dismiss things that do not line up with the Bible, yes."
So, basically, what you are saying here is, no matter what evidence there is, you will always dismiss it because it disagrees with the Bible. That is...pathetic. You are absolutely sure you are correct, and because of this, you ignore everything else, even if it follows logic and reason and all such better? That's sad. I mean, what's the point in all this debating then, if you're just going to wave everything that doesn't correspond with the Bible, away? It's a waste of both our time, and a waste of me trying my hardest to get through to you. So I'm not really going to bother anymore. I'm sorry if this seems awfully rude, but...I mean, really???


message 11: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Ok, so I haven't had alot of time to do much as far as those prophecies go, and I'm about to get alot busier so I'm not sure if/when I will be able to get to it. It's going to be an in depth study where I will need to look at ALOT of things. And honestly, right now, I just don't have time. But I'm 100% positive that those supposed failed prophecies are interpreted wrong. Jesus was never wrong about one single thing.

I still hold to everything I said about evidence of the Bible. The only exception being that dust example as I have not researched it.

As I've already illustrated with the supposed contradictions, it takes more than just looking at the words printed on the page to get what's being said. And I know that whoever assumed that those prophecies didn't come to pass, did not understand what they were talking about.
God's word is 100% accurate. Sometimes it just takes people a little while to catch up.
But as I said, it's going to take some study on my part, so I won't get into that right now.

BUT, I have had a chance to look at those other 2 supposed contradictions you mentioned: the bat and the shape of the earth.

Ok, the bat one:
"The bat is not a bird
LEV 11:13-19
DEU 14:11-18"

I find it interesting that he always stops right after the word 'bat'. He's editing the Bible to make it say what he wants.
The Bible isn't meant to stand by one word or verse or a group of verses alone. It's meant to be read as a whole.
This goes back to what I was saying about turning on a movie somewhere in the middle and expecting to get it. You can't.
The Bible wasn't written with the nice little chapter and verse divisions that we have now. They were added for our benefit. It was written one big long book at a time. Alot of the verses start with the words 'and' or 'for'(as in 'because'), these words refer to something that came before.
Context.

In this passage, had he kept going with the verses, he would see that the next thing on the list is "every creeping thing that flieth" and "all other flying creeping things, which have four feet,"
I don't think God was suggesting that creeping things with four feet were birds.
The Hebrew language is much more specific than English is. In English you have several meaning for the same word, and the only way to figure out which meaning it is, is by context. Hebrew isn't like that.

Again, this says it better than I can:
"The error in this translation is the use of the word fowls from the Hebrew word owph which literally refers to any flying creature. The original Hebrew text is explaining what flying creatures were acceptable for consumption and which ones were not. Because the bat is technically a flying creature, it was accurately included in this list."
"At the time, the bat fit best under the classification of winged creatures. The extensive scientific classifications we have today did not exist 3500 years ago. The Bible listing the bat with other winged creatures was literally and technically correct. Just because modern definitions have changed does not make the 3500 year old classification of winged creatures incorrect."
http://www.neocrisis.com/faith-a-poli...

As for the shape of the earth:
http://www.thywordistrue.com/contradi...

"The Bible teaches the correct shape of the earth. Isaiah 40:22 says that God "sits above the circle of the earth". The Hebrew word translated "circle" can also carry with it the idea of sphericity. Also, Luke 17:34-36 depicts Christ's second coming as happening while some are asleep at night and others are working at daytime in a field. Such language indicates an implicit knowledge that the earth was spherical and rotating."
http://graceinthetriad.blogspot.com/2...


And here is a MUCH longer list of "contradictions" and their explanations. If you're interested.
http://www.genesispark.com/genpark/co...

As I said, there are no contradictions in the Bible. Only a lack of understanding of what it means.


message 12: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
I had that post open for a while, so I didn't see your last one. Had I seen it, I wouldn't have bothered.

No, I do not deny actual evidence. Only the way some chose to interpret it.
The evidence to support evolution is the same evidence to support creation. Its all about how something is interpreted.
Evolution goes in with the assumption that there is no God. Something that I know to be completely false.
It is a ridiculous proposition thought up by people to explain God away. And sorry, but I'm not gullible enough to believe it.

You ask me to prove the Bible is true, well I ask you to prove it's not. The Bible has yet to be proven wrong. And until that time I'm sticking with what it says.

True science does not contradict the Bible.
You can throw all the supposed evidence for evolution at me that you want, but that doesn't make it true.
There's no proof, only supposition.
In that article on the big bang you gave me, they can't explain anything. They don't even believe what they're saying completely.
The article says, 'this is only one possibility' or something along those lines. And they can't even explain the origin of anything. So what's the point?

You say it's pathetic to disagree with something because it disagrees with the Bible. I say it's pathetic to accept what fallible, limited humans suppose to be true without any proof.

You're ideas are inconsistent.
You accept one unproven idea while rejecting another. Only in the case of the Bible, it explains everything. Evolution and the Big Bang don't explain anything.
And there is proof - you just can't see it. I do.

And yes, I am absolutely sure I'm correct. It's called faith.
Everyone has faith. Even atheists.
You put your faith in your own logic and what certain scientists say. Not all scientists, just certain ones.
Scientists who are human and therefore flawed and limited in their understanding.
I choose to put my faith in a God so big that my human brain can't even comprehend everything about Him. One that knows absolutely everything.


So, yes, I must agree with you, it is a waste of both of our time to try to debate anything going in with such opposite starting points.


message 13: by Heather (new)

Heather Salsbury (twilightblonde) Ok guys, I've been tuning into this debate aka:Being nosey and reading other peoples stuff. I have posted only once on this topic due to the fact that my beliefs are my beliefs.

I am a dedicated christen and will forever be such. I also consider myself a person of fine intelect and capable of making my own descisions as I do consider you. But, I have also felt the Lord's presence. Like I said the last time, there is no other feeling. I love my church and I love the christ-like bond that is formed from it. I haven't read the bible through, and I haven't memorized every verse, but I know he is here and he is with me.

He is the only reason I have gotten through all the hardships I have. Is it so bad to believe there's a reason for everything? Or that there is someone who is truly selfless and cares about us that much? Believing in that has been my way through discovering more about myself, getting me through my sisters death, and my parents divorce, and so much more.

You guys can consider it a waste of time, but believing in him has helped me. Whether I'm right or wrong, nothing can take away what faith has given me.


message 14: by [deleted user] (new)

Yes, I do believe in God. There is proof in the Bible.


message 15: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Heather wrote: "Ok guys, I've been tuning into this debate aka:Being nosey and reading other peoples stuff..."

Not being nosy, it's a public page. Any comments are welcome on what I post.

I agree, there is such fulfillment in God that cannot be found through any other religion or person.
I'm sorry about your sister and parents. But I'm glad you have God to help you through the hard times.


message 16: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments "The Hebrew word translated "circle" can also carry with it the idea of sphericity."

No.


mic wrote: "Yes, I do believe in God. There is proof in the Bible."

...I hope you can find the amount of fail in that on your own.


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments Throughout my life I've never once seen a shred of evidence that I've found compelling enough to believe in the supernatural. It's not something I've ever felt a need to believe in, nor is it something that has ever invoked any sort of feeling in me. That's not to say that I would turn the other cheek were there any sort of reason or evidence presented to me, I just have never seen an argument that wasn't faith-based.


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid It's not exactly 'super-natural'.
And if you look, sometimes the 'extremly convinent coincedences' are that.
My friend went to church for the first time in years. She said she'd ask for something impossoble to see if God really existed. Her dad was away in Iraq and still had 5 more months 'till he would come home. She asked he could come home early. The next day, they got a call, and her dad was going to come home in a week.
This happened last month.


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments The definition of "super-natural" is "beyond natural" or "not natural". According to you, god created nature which means he would have to be outside of it. Therefore, he is beyond the natural and he is super-natual. Of course, there is no such thing as super-natural, since nature encompasses all.

I've never had one of these "extremely convenient" incidents happen to me. Maybe if one did, I'd have probable cause to a certain extent...

Then why isn't god answering everyone's prayers? Why does he pick and choose which miracles to perform? Why is your friend's dad more important than the homeless man who lives in the dumpster across the street from me? Maybe if god seemed a bit more caring to me, I'd feel a bit more amazement to these miracle stories. The situation you describes seems like nothing more than a fortunate coincidence, as that's all it is. If god really cared about the people he ruled over, he would bring everyone's dad home early.


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid Well, I guess I taking it more through connation as oppossed to diction.
There's always different stories of comvient coincedences, no matter how small and silly they might be. I always wanted an American Girl Doll. One day, I got 6 at a yard sale for the price of 2! (Those are those $100 dolls)
And I DO see what your saying about not everyone getting the same miracles. I guess I don't really know how to put that into words... I guess maybe everyone's different and needs different... Situations to be helped through? That's really the best I can do for that....
And I hope you have a little miracle happens to you one day. Even something small, like what happened to me. Eventuallly, I think it does happen to everyone.


message 21: by ♥ Rachel♥ (last edited Apr 25, 2011 11:04PM) (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments Or, you know, it's almost statistically impossible not to have something really good happen to you in your life. I had a lot of lovely stuff happen; I see no reason why some random spirit in the sky would have caused any of it.


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid I know; I mean the ones that are coincedences.
LIke you prayed for it, then it happens.


message 23: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments Coincidences happen to everybody, of any religion (or of none). Also, depending on how often you pray, it might also be nearly statistically impossible not to get something you've prayed for. :P


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments Mayday, do you have a word processor? If so, I suggest you type out your posts in the program first so that you have a spellchecker at your disposal. As you seem to be spelling a lot of words incorrectly...

LIke you prayed for it, then it happens.

Why should you pray for something for god to know that you want it? I thought god supposedly knew me better than I knew myself. If this is so, why must I have to ask for it for god to understand that I desire it? Does god simply rejoice in the prospect of someone getting down on their knees and humbling themselves before him? If so, god must be a real egomaniac, or at least very insecure...


message 25: by ♥ Rachel♥ (last edited Apr 29, 2011 08:33PM) (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments God's insecurity is almost a given xP


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid Actually, it was only about 2 or 3. I find it very low that you have to point out small errors; it shows your to insecure about your own argument to be able to leave me alone for only a few mistakes. (And actually, 'like' was spelled correctly; I accidentally capitalized the 'I')

He does know. He knows everything. I'm honestly not sure why you have to; I'm not a priest.

And I've been wondering this for a while now: Why are we brining religion into a political group? Just wondering; I know it's 'seperate' and everything.


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments I find it very low that you have to point out small errors; it shows your to insecure about your own argument to be able to leave me alone for only a few mistakes.

Where exactly did I point out any specific errors? Talk about insecurity, you are under the pretense that I am attempting to insult you, which I am not. I also was not referring to that specific post, as you have far more than two or three spelling and grammatical errors spread throughout your posts. Which you, of course, WOULD see if you had actually taken my advice and copied and pasted them into a word processor instead of groping for reasons to think that I was trying to insult you and attempting to find a witty response.


He does know. He knows everything. I'm honestly not sure why you have to; I'm not a priest.

Well unless you can find a reasonable explanation for this religious phenomenon, I'd rather not get down on my knees, throw myself on the floor, and clasp my hands together over wanting to get a new video game thank you very much.


And I've been wondering this for a while now: Why are we brining religion into a political group? Just wondering; I know it's 'seperate' and everything.

One's religious views can often effect one's political views. Just read the gay marriage topic (or gay marrage, as it's spelled in this group) to see what I mean.

You spelled "bringing" wrong, by the way. :P


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid I wasn't asking you to convert, I'm only trying to make you see my point of view. I don't expect you to change just by an argument; I don't expect anyone to. Just like I wouldn't either; I would just see it from their 'eyes'. I respect someones religion (or lack there of), and I would hope they would do the same to me.
I know it effects views, but lots of different religions have different views, so though it may only influence it.
And know I'm kind of thinking your going out of your way to be rude. But if you must know, my keyboard's kinda old.


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments Oh I understand, I was merely using myself to represent my point of view on this matter. I wish I could see it from your point of view...but I'm unable to do that unless I understand your reasons for behaving in this manner.

And know I'm kind of thinking your going out of your way to be rude. But if you must know, my keyboard's kinda old.

Sheesh, I was just trying to have fun. :D


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid My reasons are that I am in the process of reading the Bible (it's kind of long...), and I believe it. I also have attended Church, and belive that. I assume that's why any one believes what they do. Or, in the case of nonbeliviers, they don't belive any of it.
I never try to convert people, but I try to see their point of view, and I would expect, out of nothing more than common courtesy, they try to understand/ respect that I have my beliefs.

Kay, but I sorta took it personally... I'm kinda young for most of this stuff, like being very young for my grade, and the youngest in my school debate team. I just don't want to be 'belittled' (I guess would be the word..) because I'm younger than most people.


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments My reasons are that I am in the process of reading the Bible (it's kind of long...), and I believe it. I also have attended Church, and belive that.

Yes but why do you believe it? What are your reasons? What convinced you that the teachings you hear in church and the words of that particular holy scripture (among many others) are the absolute truth? You must have a reason for this.


I'm kinda young for most of this stuff, like being very young for my grade, and the youngest in my school debate team.

Your story is nothing new to me, I was thirteen when I started high school. I know it's hard to recognize sarcasm and a joking tone when all you're doing is reading words, but you can't always take things seriously.


message 32: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments "I just don't want to be 'belittled' (I guess would be the word..) because I'm younger than most people."

...No one said anything about age, dude.

"I was thirteen when I started high school"
Yayz, same ^-^


message 33: by Kristen (last edited May 02, 2011 05:21PM) (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Hell's Little Angel wrote: "My reasons are that I am in the process of reading the Bible (it's kind of long...), and I believe it. I also have attended Church, and belive that.

Yes but why do you believe it? What are your r..."


I'm not gonna get into a debate about God being real or not. Again, lol. I haven't followed along with the discussion in a while.
But I just wanna say if you're looking for someone to prove it for you, it's probably not gonna happen. And by the same token, prove it's not true.

God is not subject to the laws of science or anything else, so there's not going to be hard fast proof that He exists. He doesn't want it that way. God is all about faith.
"But without faith it is impossible to please him:" Heb. 11:6

If you have undeniable "proof", there's no faith involved. And you would not have any choice but to believe it.
God gives you a choice to accept or reject Him.

But if you've already made up your mind until someone proves you wrong, your opinion is most likely not going to change.
Not that it won't, someone may be able to convince you. I don't know. But probably not.
Because Satan is working very very hard to keep you in the dark. He's very good at influencing your logic, so that, to you a lie makes perfect sense.
But of course, if you don't believe in God or Satan or their power, you won't believe that.
Which is genius, really.

Also, faith is a very personal thing. What convinces one person, won't necessarily convince another. God is a personal God. He gives everyone their own confirmation. But you have to have faith first. It's the key to everything.

So, one person telling you why they believe what they do, will probably not convince you.

Personally, I've always believed in God. I've been going to church since I was born. But there have been many many things in my life that have acted as confirmation to what I was taught previously. Things that have shown me that what I've been told and believed is indeed true.

There's also a sense of peace that accompanies putting your trust in God. It's not something understandable to someone who does not share that faith. "peace that passes all understanding", the Bible calls it. And it's not just a warm, fuzzy feeling you get when you become a Christian. Just because you give your life to God, does not mean all your problems are solved. It's an illogical sense of peace where, humanly speaking, there should be none.
It's hard to explain unless you have experienced it.

The only one who can "prove" to you that God exists, is God, Himself. He's the only one who knows what will convince you.
If you really, truly want to know the truth, He will show you. You just have to really want it and you have to look for it.

"If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God." Prov. 2:4&5

"...for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb. 11:6

But if you're waiting for some great miracle or sign, telling you God is real, you most likely won't get it.
Ack! I can't find the verse i was thinking of, but it basically says it's really bad to expect God to prove Himself to you - something like 'a vain and adulterous people seeketh signs', I can't remember the exact wording. Basically, God's not going to prove himself to anyone. He's the Almighty Creator of the universe. Never once in the Bible does God try to prove His existence or try to convince anyone of His authority. It is assumed.
And besides that, Satan can do miracles too. They really wouldn't be evidence of anything.


If you really want to know, the best thing you could do is to get alone with the Bible and God. He will show you.


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid "Yes but why do you believe it? What are your reasons? What convinced you that the teachings you hear in church and the words of that particular holy scripture (among many others) are the absolute truth? You must have a reason for this."
Because I've seen the hand of God work im my life as well as others.

Glad to know I'm not alone!! :D I was (sorta am...) starting high school at 13.


message 35: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments "there have been many many things in my life that have acted as confirmation"
Then this is proof? :P

"You just have to really want it and you have to look for it."
Almost everyone wants the truth. Some have just gotten over believing in fairytales whilst searching.

"the best thing you could do is to get alone with the Bible and God. He will show you."
Then why do people stop believing, pray tell?

"I've seen the hand of God"
And how do you know it is God? And even if there is a deity, how do you know it is specifically the deity you happen to believe in? And, since you're Christian, how do you know you're following the correct set of rituals to please this deity?


message 36: by Kristen (last edited May 03, 2011 12:44AM) (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
♥ Rachel♥ wrote: ""there have been many many things in my life that have acted as confirmation"
Then this is proof?"


My faith is my 'proof'. Which, yes, I realize will not make sense to you.
I do not need anything else, but God has been good enough to give me specific signs and has worked in my life and in the lives of many people I know.

"Almost everyone wants the truth. Some have just gotten over believing in fairytales whilst searching."

No, some are deceived. And no, not everyone wants the truth. Some don't care. Some think they have it and do not. Some just don't care enough to really search. And some let "logic" get in the way.

"Then why do people stop believing, pray tell?"

Because they never truly believed.
Belief is knowing something to be true. If you stop believing, you are saying that it is not true. Truth does not change. If it was true before, it will always be true.


Mayday *Porcelain*  Anykid Because I pray, then it can happen. I believe it's my God because of what I've read and learned.
Everyone has their own beliefs, and and reasons to coming to that.
Why DON'T you believe?


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments And by the same token, prove it's not true.

That's like me asking you to prove that the Easter Bunny isn't real...

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've made the extraordinary claim that there's an all-powerful, supernatural being that I should devote my time and energy into worshipping. Where's your extraordinary evidence??


He doesn't want it that way. God is all about faith.

Faith is the acceptance of facts without proof. It's the ability to look hard, cold evidence in the eye and reject it simply because you feel differently. It's something I could never imagine myself having...even if others can.


Because Satan is working very very hard to keep you in the dark. He's very good at influencing your logic, so that, to you a lie makes perfect sense.

Well, it's kind of god's fault then if Satan is keeping me in the dark. I would most certainly believe in god were he to reveal himself and allow me confirm his existence. But by your definition, he doesn't. He doesn't give me a choice, he makes it absolutely impossible to believe in him without rejecting every single shred of logical concept known to man.

And if Satan is influencing the minds of so many people, why doesn't god just get rid of him? After all, I'd think god would care enough about his creations to not let them be led into temptation and suffering. The religious often use the analogy of a shepherd leading his sheep to god and humans. But what kind of shepherd allows the wolf to have such easy access to his sheep? One that's not too good at his job, I'd say.


But you have to have faith first. It's the key to everything.

Have faith in which god? There are over a thousand to chose from, you know. Should I have faith in every single god, one at a time? And wait for at least one of them to show me a sign? What happens if I receive a sign from more than one god? Does that mean I should believe in more than one god? But then wouldn't that violate the concept of monotheism??


There's also a sense of peace that accompanies putting your trust in God. It's not something understandable to someone who does not share that faith.

To be honest, you feel the same way when you reject the idea of god. I used to be christian, I was just as strong a believer as you. I gave myself fully to god. But after a long process that took many years in the making, I began to doubt my faith. I was seeing less and less of a reason to believe in god, and was beginning to see things for a secular view. And then one morning, I finally came to the realization to reject theism altogether, as I just no longer saw any reason to put my faith into it. It was a wonderful feeling, very uplifting. I felt as if all my questions had been answered and I was free now to do what I wanted. No longer was I weighted down by the pressure of obeying the commands of a deity and putting my trust into something so uncertain. I saw the world in a new light. I could do anything I wanted, be anything I wanted. I truly was a beautiful feeling, one I shan't forget.

I'm sure, to you, this feeling I'm describing resembles something along the lines of delusion. I assure you, this is exactly how I feel when the religious describe their "wonderful feelings". :D


If you really, truly want to know the truth, He will show you. You just have to really want it and you have to look for it.

Oh I have, I assure you I have. I spent years looking for god, I worked with my local priest for hours trying to find him...but I'm afraid it was all in vain.


Why DON'T you believe?

I don't believe because I don't see any reason to, I don't see signs of god anywhere, and the universe is far to imperfect to have been created by a perfect being.


I'm not gonna get into a debate about God being real or not. Again, lol. I haven't followed along with the discussion in a while.

I'm sorry I'm putting a reply to this at the bottom of my post, I just thought it would fit better here. I understand if you'd rather not discuss this with me, as I've known to participate in discussions on the internet that have become quite tedious over a length of time...but I'd certainly like to discuss this with you, if you'd be up for it. It's very refreshing to meet someone who thinks in a completely different way than I do, and it'd be nice to compare beliefs and maybe learn something from each other. Besides, ordinarily my internet debates start and end as something of a Flame War, consisting of bitter insults, foul language, and a teeth-grinding opposition. It'd be a nice break to have a civilized discussion for a change. :D


message 39: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Hell's Little Angel wrote: "And by the same token, prove it's not true.

That's like me asking you to prove that the Easter Bunny isn't real...

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You've made the extraordin..."


It's not extraordinary to me. Your claim that He isn't real is insane to me.
People used to think that way about germs and many many other things. Until they knew better, of course. Human understanding is severely limited.

"..being that I should devote my time and energy into worshipping."

I never said that. Faith in God has nothing to do with works or worship. True Christians who are that devoted are that way because they want to be, not because it is required. God requires nothing but faith.

"Where's your extraordinary evidence??"
I believe I addressed this already.

"It's the ability to look hard, cold evidence in the eye and reject it simply because you feel differently."

Wrong. Faith is believing something despite having no tangible proof, not against proof to the contrary.
It may go against what your logic is telling you, but that's not the same thing. Human logic is fallible. We do not know everything. Not even close.
There is no proof to discredit the existence of God. Only conclusions people have come to based on their fallible, limited logic.

"Well, it's kind of god's fault then if Satan is keeping me in the dark. I would most certainly believe in god were he to reveal himself and allow me confirm..."

Not at all. As I said, God does give a choice. To everyone, including Satan - although, he already made his choice long ago.
Every single person is responsible for their own actions. You have a choice. No one forces you to believe one way or another. Satan influences, yes, but it's not irresistible. Attractive, maybe, but completely resistible.
But even without Satan, there would probably still be sin in the world. Because we are human and we sin. Satan just fuels the fire, you could say.

I doubt you would believe even in that instance, because Jesus walked the earth for 33 years. He did many miracles and people still rejected Him. They crucified Him.
And given all the science and technology today, skepticism has increased.
So, no, I don't think you would.
But as I said, God does not have to prove Himself to anyone.
And generally when people have the attitude of 'I'll believe in God when I have proof', they aren't looking with the right attitude.
"A scorner seeketh wisdom, and findeth it not: but knowledge is easy unto him that understandeth." Prov. 14:6 ('understandeth' as in understanding things of God - already having faith)

"And if Satan is influencing the minds of so many people, why doesn't god just get rid of him?"

That's a good question. I don't know. I'm not God.
However, one of His attributes is that He is longsuffering. Personally, I'm glad He is, because if He wasn't, people's lives would be awfully short. If we had a quota of how much sin we were allowed before God got fed up and got rid of us, there wouldn't be too many people left.

But maybe God allows Satan near free reign because He wants us to have an actual choice. If there's no other option or one that's not very attractive, it's not really much of a choice, is it?
God gives you your own free will. He allows Satan to show you what you could have if you follow him vs what God promises and lets you decide for yourself. He warns us about him, tells us what to watch out for and that satan lies.
It's not God's fault if you choose not to believe Him, it's yours.

"I'd think god would care enough about his creations to not let them be led into temptation and suffering"

No one is forced to be led into temptation. You don't have to follow anything.
Again, God gives a choice. If there was no temptation, there would be no choice.
Suffering is the byproduct of sin. If you choose to sin, you will probably suffer. And/or someone else will. That's not God's fault.

"The religious often use the analogy of a shepherd leading his sheep to god and humans. But what kind of shepherd allows the wolf to have such easy access to his sheep? One that's not too good at his job, I'd say."

Yes, God does picture Himself as a shepherd.
Think about that analogy. The shepherd's job is to protect the sheep, not control them. It's not uncommon for or or two sheep to wander off, away from that protection(free will). And yes, if they do, they might get eaten by a wolf, but those sheep chose to walk off and leave safety.
And it's not "easy access" that Satan has. A Christian is virtually untouchable to Satan without God's ok.
Those who are not Christians, however, have no such protection. Because until you are a Christian, you are not one of His "sheep".

"Have faith in which god? There are over a thousand to chose from, you know. Should I have faith in..."

Show me one god apart from my God who has proven anything. One that has conquered death. One who asks only for your faith and nothing else. One who is without contradiction. One who loves those who believe in him as well as those who do not and who knows absolutely every single thing about them including their every thought. One who actively works in the lives of his believers and has a personal relationship with each one. One who has suffered and died for his creation. One who gives any hope or peace.
I could go on and on, really.
There isn't one. God is the only one who meets any and all of those prerequisites.

"To be honest, you feel the same way when you reject the idea of god. I used to be ch.."

No, you've just described that "warm fuzzy feeling" I mentioned before. Faith in God is not about feelings. Because Satan can influence those quite easily. We are emotional people and our emotions at times are pretty erratic.
Emotions change. God does not change. If you truly believed before, that would not change simply because you had certain feelings.
And I'm not calling you a liar, but sometimes people think they have it down and believe when they do not. (That's one of Satan's great achievements - getting people to believe falsely. Because why look for the truth if you think you have it, right?)
My siblings and I were all raised in church and I was pretty sure my sister was a Christian all along - I'm sure she did too. But she did not actually put her faith in God until she was about 23 or so.

No, what I meant was not a "feeling" at all. It's a certainty that things are going to be ok when they don't seem like they will be. For instance, someone puts a gun to your head. The logical thing to do would be to freak out in some way. The peace I was talking about, would enable you to stay calm. To know that no matter what, it's going to be ok because God is in control.
And yes, this has actually happened. I don't remember the specifics, it was a LONG time ago when I heard this story, but there was a girl - I wanna say around 12 or so - and one day when she was in school(another country somewhere, I think her parents were missionaries), men came in with guns and said they would kill whoever did not denounce their faith in God. They went around to all the kids and they all quickly said they didn't believe. Until they got to this one girl, who refused. They gave her a few chances, but she would not give in and they killed her.
Also, Rachel Scott who was killed at Columbine.

That's the kind of peace I meant. Logically, there shouldn't be any peace, but they had it.
And it's not always so extreme - it certainly hasn't been for me. But no, that's not what you felt at all - to be honest it sounds like Satan was working on you.
And it's not a one time thing. It's pretty consistent.

"Oh I have, I assure you I have. I spent years looking for god, I worked with my local priest for hours trying to find him...but I'm afraid it was all in vain."

Well, (not to offend anyone in here) but priests in general have no clue about God. I am not Catholic, obviously. Catholicism is a religion of ritual and works. It goes against the Bible in so many ways.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us," Titus 3:5

Not that Catholics cannot be Christians - I know some who are.
But honestly, the Catholic Church is not the place to learn about God or Salvation.

And anyway, I didn't mean to depend on someone else to tell you. Read the Bible yourself. God promises to reveal Himself to those who are looking.

But if you don't want to do that, I'd recommend finding a good fundamental Bible Church and talk to the Pastor.

However I have a feeling you won't be doing that.


"the universe is far to imperfect to have been created by a perfect being."

It was perfect once and will be again. Sin corrupts and has corrupted our world. 6000 years later - yeah, it's pretty far from perfect at this point.


"I'm sorry I'm putting a reply to this at the bottom of my post, I just..."

haha, these things always get SO dragged out. It's already gotten pretty long *sigh*
But sure, I'll discuss, at least when I have time - I should be writing a paper right now actually...lol And no, I won't resort to insults, name calling, or foul language.


message 40: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments "I realize will not make sense to you."
It doesn't 'not make sense', it's just the reasoning of people who don't actually have a reason. It's saying, "I believe because I believe, sothere."

"No, some are deceived."
Away from the truth - they still want it? :P

"not everyone wants the truth. Some don't care....Some just don't care enough to really search."
They still want it, they just want it handed to them on a silver platter :P

"And some let "logic" get in the way. Some think they have it and do not."
- How are these not wanting the truth?
- Logic: It works, otherwise we'd have given up on it by now. It also is considerably more solid than believing in warm fuzzies that then turn out to be unimportant. (By the way, if even you and fellow Christians disagree about the same book, how could you ever believe a letter of it??? Really. I mean, if some people say warm fuzzies are proof and some aren't...that's really shaky :P)
- Thinking they have it: Same as being deceived....

"Belief is knowing something to be true"
No, it's thinking something is true. It's not the same thing.


message 41: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
♥ Rachel♥ wrote: ""I realize will not make sense to you."
It doesn't 'not make sense', it's just the reasoning of people who don't actually have a reason. It's saying, "I believe because I believe, sothere.""


Not quite the sentiment I was going for.
As I said, one person telling you why they believe what they do, probably won't convince you. It's a personal thing. My reasons are mine alone and would mean nothing to you.

"No, some are deceived."
Away from the truth - they still want it? :P"

That was in reference to your fairytales comment.


"They still want it, they just want it handed to them on a silver platter :P"

Exactly. Doesn't really work that way. You can't base your salvation on anyone else's faith.


"How are these not wanting the truth?"
Example: I tell you I'm a parakeet. Logic tells you that's not true, because you know I'm a person. But what you don't understand is, my job is to wear a parakeet costume. (Not really, lol). So, I told you the truth, but your logic got in the way of believing it.

And as far as thinking they have it and don't. It goes back to the silver platter idea. It's my job to make sure I'm on the right track. If I trust what my mother or my priest or whoever told me without verifying in the Bible, it's my fault. I didn't want it bad enough to look into it.
"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." John 5:39 We are all responsible for ourselves. The reason God gave us the Bible is so we could read it ourselves.


"Logic: It works, otherwise we'd..."

Logic is subjective. My faith makes perfect sense to me. But sometimes what we "know" as humans contradicts what the Bible says. This doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong - we are. We don't know everything.

"It also is considerably more solid than believing in warm fuzzies..."

I do not base my faith on 'warm fuzzies'. (Read previous comments)

"if even you and fellow Christians disagree about the same book, how could you ever believe a letter of it???"

My faith is not contingent upon anything but what is in the Bible. Someone else's belief of it has no effect on mine.
I'm not sure if I get your meaning here. Example?

"if some people say warm fuzzies are proof and some aren't...that's really shaky"

If someone tells me that is proof, I'd ask for a reference. It's not there.

"No, it's thinking something is true. It's not the same thing."

Yes, but I meant in your own mind, you know it's true. That you're that certain.
Still if you believed it to be true before and don't now, then you never really did.


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments People used to think that way about germs and many many other things. Until they knew better, of course. Human understanding is severely limited.

Before the existence of germs was successfully scientifically proven, I can completely understand why people were skeptical on their existence. There was absolutely no reason for them to believe in the existence of germs, because there was no evidence for their existence. When proof arose, however, people knew of their existence and believed in them. I feel the same way about god. If scientific proof were to arise of his existence, I would have more than a reason to believe in him (or her, depending on which god was proven to exist).


I never said that. Faith in God has nothing to do with works or worship.

You're right, you never said that. I'm sorry, I generalized.


It may go against what your logic is telling you, but that's not the same thing. Human logic is fallible. We do not know everything. Not even close.

How do you know that human logic is fallible? What other system of logic can you compare it to?


Every single person is responsible for their own actions. You have a choice. No one forces you to believe one way or another. Satan influences, yes, but it's not irresistible. Attractive, maybe, but completely resistible.

It's not really a choice though, is it? If I don't believe in your god specifically out of the many other gods to chose from, I'll end up roasting eternally simply for making the wrong choice. It's like an abusive dad telling his infant kid that he'll take him to the candy store if he cleans his room, but will beat him until he's severely injured if he doesn't.


And generally when people have the attitude of 'I'll believe in God when I have proof', they aren't looking with the right attitude.

It's not just toward religion that I have a skeptic attitude. I'm a secular humanist, which means I apply the scientific method as much as possible to my daily life. I question everything. I don't consider myself to have an opinion on a topic until I've thought long and hard about that topic. I go through life constantly seeking knowledge wherever I go, and perhaps this is why I see faith as something that could possibly slow me down and delude my skeptic thinking. Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong angle, but the way you explain it seems to only confirm my thinking.


But maybe God allows Satan near free reign because He wants us to have an actual choice. If there's no other option or one that's not very attractive, it's not really much of a choice, is it?

Maybe I could understand your line of thinking if it just wasn't such a huge price to pay for making the wrong decision. You spend eternity being beaten and roasted mercilessly...you could endure a trillion billion years of absolute torture and it still wouldn't be enough to pay for what I had done that was allegedly so wrong that it couldn't possibly go without being dealt the worst kind of punishment. Not even the worst of criminals deserves something like that...maybe if you only paid for a certain amount of time and then were allowed entrance to heaven. But eternity? I shudder at the thought of it.


It's not uncommon for or or two sheep to wander off, away from that protection

But they're sheep! They don't know what they're doing...all they can think is that the grass looks a little bit greener over in that spot behind the tree and away from the shepherd.

And it's not as if it's exactly one or two, it's the majority of the population by your standards. You wouldn't be a very successful shepherd if only 30% of your sheep survived.


There isn't one. God is the only one who meets any and all of those prerequisites.

Your god is the only one who meets all. Many gods meet many of the same standards and some meet more that Yahweh doesn't. Such as patience, which I've yet to see any display of from the christian god.


The peace I was talking about, would enable you to stay calm. To know that no matter what, it's going to be ok because God is in control.

I think you should see this video. It's very powerful, and it's from an atheist vlogger who I hold in high respects. It's not graphic, but it does contain language. I understand if you don't watch the whole thing, it's pretty intense toward the end. But I'd really like a christian opinion on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJC0Bz...


Logically, there shouldn't be any peace, but they had it.
And it's not always so extreme - it certainly hasn't been for me. But no, that's not what you felt at all - to be honest it sounds like Satan was working on you.


Well, I suppose we both think the counterpart is the deluded one then. I can live with that. :D I suppose my username isn't exactly helping to dull your suspicions.


Well, (not to offend anyone in here) but priests in general have no clue about God. I am not Catholic, obviously. Catholicism is a religion of ritual and works. It goes against the Bible in so many ways.

Interesting. I've never heard that opinion before. What denotation are you?


Sin corrupts and has corrupted our world. 6000 years later

Oh, that's another question I had. Why is it that the christian god only seems to focus on our world, when in reality planet Earth is nothing but a tiny speck in the enormously vast plane that is our cosmos? Why does god treat the earth as if it were the center of everything and that the universe was created specifically for humans? It really isn't very consistent if you think about it.


I should be writing a paper right now actually

So should I to tell you the truth...Except I doubt your paper is on the research of Darwin. :) haha


And no, I won't resort to insults, name calling, or foul language.

I wouldn't call it resorting, Flame Wars can be really fun. As long as you're willing to look past the insults. I'd hardly call them intelligent, though...


Anyway, it's past midnight on the shores of the Pacific right now...and I need to get to bed so I can wake up at five tomorrow (groan) hopefully reading your response and replying to it will be a way to unwind before I do ten problem sets on polynomials (bigger groan)...Catch ya later. :)


message 43: by Kristen (last edited May 04, 2011 08:46PM) (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Hell's Little Angel wrote: "Before the existence of germs was successfully scientifically proven, I can completely understand why people wer..."

Point being, it was true even though there was no solid proof. And it was theorized long before it was actually accepted. Probably thousands of people died needlessly because they refused to accept the 'crazy rantings' of Ignaz Semmelweis.
And of course there are other instances where people's false beliefs concerning medicine, killed a bunch of people.

"How do you know that human logic is fallible? What other system of logic can you compare it to?"

You don't have to compare one thing to another to know there are faults. Again I say, we do not know everything. Science and medicine have been wrong time and again. Human logic is fallible because people make mistakes.

"It's not really a choice though, is it? If I don't believe in you..."

Does someone force you to do the things you do?
Hell is not the punishment for not believing in God, it is the punishment for the sins we have committed. Everyone of us has sinned before, therefore every one of us is doomed to Hell. Jesus died so you wouldn't have to - He took your place. If He never came to earth, there would be no way we could go to Heaven. There wouldn't be a choice.
So yes, faith in God does save from Hell, but it's not the refusal to believe that sends people there, it's their own actions that do that. It is definitely a choice.

"It's not just toward religion that I have a skeptic attitude. I'm a secular humanist, which means I apply the scientific..."

It's good that you question things. I can understand that you want proof - who doesn't right? But the fact is, some things defy logic. Things happen, and scientifically speaking, there is no reason for it. Sometimes there isn't an answer. Or not one that we have found yet.
Trusting completely in logic and science isn't very wise because as I pointed out, we don't know everything. And people make mistakes.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying science is evil. It's been very beneficial, but it's just not something to put your faith in so entirely.


"Maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong angle"

You know, that's really the key to everything. People often make assumptions and base their logic from those assumptions. They don't even realize that those things might not be true.
It's not necessarily the 'evidence' you have for something, it's how you look at it.

"Maybe I could understand your line of thinking if it just wasn't..."

As I said, Hell is not the punishment for belief or lack thereof, it's the punishment for sin. Hell was not created for people at all. It was created for Satan and his followers. And if you reject God, you follow Satan by default.

The way you're thinking is still very much the works mentality. Faith is not about works. God doesn't reward those who believe in him with Heaven and those who don't with Hell. We have all earned our spot in Hell as soon as we sinned. God just loved us enough to give us a way to escape it. But it's a gift. A gift isn't forced.

"But they're sheep! They don't know what they're doing...all they can think..."

Granted, sheep are pretty stupid, but they're not that dumb. They know who their shepherd is - they know his voice. And the shepherd routinely tries to keep them from straying off. It's not like they don't know where they should be. But sometimes, yes 'the grass is greener' or whatever and they are tempted to walk off.

"And it's not as if it's exactly one or two, it's the majority of the pop..."

I point out again, the "sheep" in this analogy are Christians.


"Your god is the only one who meets all. Many gods meet many of the same standards and some meet more that Yahweh doesn't. Such as patience, which I've yet to see any display of from the christian god."

Name one.
And no, God is very very patient. If He wasn't, the earth would have been destroyed long ago.

"I think you should see this video. It's very powerful, and it's from an athe...But I'd really like a christian opinion on it."

Wow, that's...something. I can't really see why anyone would respect someone like this at all really, to be honest. I realize she had a difficult life - many do. But the hatred spewing from her mouth is really ugly. I can't remember how she said it but, specifically how she was so completely outraged that she should *gasp* respect people who believe in God. She has the right to her own opinion on God, but to hate someone who doesn't share that opinion is completely wrong(that's where terrorism and genocide come from). Everyone deserves respect as a human being.
But it's an irrational anger as well. She's angry at God because He didn't miraculously rescue her(more on that later) when her anger should be directed at the person who is responsible for the actions and possibly her mother who didn't get her out of harm's way.

Now, about the content: yes, it's very sad and horrific that she had to go through what she did, but it wasn't God's fault.
Sin corrupts. People chose to sin and that was the result.
Her mother had a choice, did she not? Whether to get involved with her father in the first place. Whether to stay with him. Whether to call someone and at least get her daughter to safety if she couldn't go herself for whatever reason.
She doesn't mention if her mother ever tried to get away or who's advice she went against when she decided to be with this guy - and usually it's the case in these abusive relationships, the girl decides she doesn't care what anyone says, she's going to do what she wants because they're "in love".
Yes, I know, it's not an excuse, but the simple fact is, she made choices and had consequences.

Unfortunately some of those consequences were taken out on her daughter as well. Sin hurts yourself as well as others.
And the dad is obviously at fault here.

It's interesting that she made such a point about going to church and expecting that to be the fix all to her life. Going to church gets you nothing. Going to church is an action - works. Works are not equated with faith. Church was never intended to save anyone. The purpose of church is to learn about God and to fellowship with other believers.
She said she prayed for the abuse to stop - understandably. But God is not our magic genie to do our biding. Sure, we wonder why He didn't intervene, but it's not our call to say when He does or not.
But quite frankly, she was praying to God, who yes could hear her in the literal sense, but did not hear her in the spiritual sense because she was not His child.
Yes, I know that may sound callus, but God does not listen to the prayers of the unsaved - exception being the prayer to become one of his children.
God promises protection to His children and makes no such promise to the unbeliever.

And maybe He did intervene, just not in the way she wanted. She's not dead. Sometimes some really awful things happen - even to Christians - but that doesn't mean that God wasn't watching or that He didn't care. It just meant, He had other plans.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9

The fact is, we all have a free will. We can all choose to sin and to hurt others. People make bad decisions all the time that hurt their children. God gave people the right to raise their own kids the way they see fit and the job of protecting them. It's not His fault if they don't do their job. They will answer to Him for it one day though. And the punishment for something like that, i'm sure is going to be much much worse than anything he could have possibly done to her.

I also have an issue with this church they went to. I'm really not sure if she's just putting her own vicious spin on it, but it sounds like there are problems there, if she's being accurate. The part where she says they told her God was listening even though nothing was happening and it was ok. That was sort of a red flag to me - when you pray, things happen. So if her statement was accurate, I have some definite qualms with that church. It doesn't sound like a Bible based church - more like the 'warm fuzzy' feeling kind.
There are many false teachings out there that are not at all biblical.

But suffering is a part of life. We live in a sin cursed world and sin hurts - causes pain.
We all have trials and bad situations at times - some more than others. The fact that God seldom chooses some big flashy way to rescue us from that is not evidence that He does not love us. It just means He didn't do things our way or the way we thought He should.
I've seen God's miraculous hand in my own life. But it wasn't anything showy or that anyone else might see the same way I do.
God doesn't often work that way.
1 Kings 19:11-12 talks about all these huge things that Elijah saw - strong wind, earthquake, fire. And then a still small voice. God wasn't in any of the big obvious things, he was in the still small voice.

While what happened to this person was awful, her actions now aren't that much better. I don't know the reasons her dad was so abusive - maybe he was drunk or maybe he was just angry. If he was just angry, she's repeating the pattern. She's become the exact same way, maybe she's just not as physically violent as her dad was.

"Well, I suppose we both think the counterpart is the deluded one then. I can live with that. :D I suppose my username isn't exactly helping to dull your suspicions."
LOL


"Interesting. I've never heard that opinion before. What denotation are you?"

I'm an Independent Fundamental Baptist. And I hasten to add, if anyone saw that...what was it? 60 Minutes? On IFB churches - It was HIGHLY inaccurate in it's portrayal of IFB doctrine. (I'd be happy to go into detail if anyone wants)
But really, my denomination doesn't define me. I believe strictly what the Bible says. I only adhere to my denomination because it lines up with what I believe. If it were to suddenly change, I'd change my denomination.


(apparently this is gonna have to be a two-parter...)


message 44: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
"Oh, that's another question I had. Why is it that the christian god only seems to focus..."

First I want to say that whenever you ask why God chose to do something a certain way, unless it's outlined in the Bible, you are only going to get speculation.
So, what makes Earth so special? Because God created it for us - part of his master plan. He had his perfect design in mind when he did everything. Which is why of the planets that we are able to reach, ours is the only one suitable to sustain human life.
But if you want to know why create such a vast universe and just utilize Earth for human life, I think it's because God is a master...everything.

If you study the human body, it's SO intricate. How anyone can believe it just happened is beyond me really. There are systems that work perfectly together and back up systems if something goes wrong. It's amazing if you really get deep into it.

If you look at anything with God in mind, it's pretty hard to miss the perfect design of it - like the universe. Why do planets follow orbit? Why is Earth so suited to humans? Why don't the planets collide into one another? Why does most debris in space burn up before it can penetrate Earth's atmosphere? It's all designed that way.

But He created this huge planet full of beauty. Nature is really beautiful. It wasn't really necessary - we could survive if there was no color in the world and if there weren't different scents or sounds. I mean if you think about it, He didn't even have to make us look different. We could have all been one skin tone, one hair color, one eye color, etc. God enjoys beauty and diversity. He made Earth, yes. And it's beautiful and created a specific way. But if you look at all the other planets - they're all different. All beautiful in different ways.
I like to think God did that for us. He didn't have to, but he gave us beautiful things to see like sunsets, stars in the sky, waterfalls, the aurora borealis(that's on my list of things to see on day), flowers, and so many other things.

Now, why go beyond our galaxy to all the stuff we can't see? Maybe because in eternity, we won't be bound to one specific place like we are now. We'll be able to go anywhere and see everything. And eternity is a LONG time. The Universe could potentially be infinite. I don't know about you, but I have a hard time even fully understanding that concept, lol

But how is it inconsistent exactly?


"So should I to tell you the truth...Except I doubt your paper is on the research of Darwin. :) haha"

haha, very true. My paper was on prejudice. Thankfully done. But I should be studying, now...lol


"I'd hardly call them intelligent, though..."

Yes, exactly. I do have to admit, I have gotten pretty sarcastic once or twice when I just got fed up, lol


Well, good luck with all that. *shiver* 5AM! I'm doing good if I get up by 11...


message 45: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments "It's a personal thing"
Exactly. You believe what you believe because you believe.

"That was in reference to your fairytales comment."
Ah. In that case then, I think we'd both agree that an adult who still believes in Santa is deceived...the difference is that one is a nice old man who gives kids presents, the other is vile.

"You can't base your salvation on anyone else's faith."
I won't be saved. Neither will anyone.

"I told you the truth, but your logic got in the way"
Um, no you didn't. You implied you were a literal parakeet, which you are not.

"If I trust what my mother or my priest or whoever told me without verifying in the Bible, it's my fault"
And how do you know the Bible is a reliable source? Because God said so xP So have many other deities about themselves.

"Logic is subjective. My faith makes perfect sense to me."
Logic is not subjective, people can just be faulty with their path of logic.

"This doesn't mean that the Bible is wrong - we are. We don't know everything."
You don't know a word of the Bible is true.

"I do not base my faith on 'warm fuzzies'"
...I know...? That was what the rest of that was about...? :P

"I'm not sure if I get your meaning here. Example?"
I meant that if you can't interpret the same thing with anything remotely close to consistency, why would you go along with it?
For example, you can't even agree how long Creation lasted, whether the days were literal or not....

"I'd ask for a reference. It's not there."
Then what do you take as your proof?

"if you believed it to be true before and don't now, then you never really did."
Or you're a reasonable person. :P


message 46: by Kristen (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
♥ Rachel♥ wrote: ""It's a personal thing"
Exactly. You believe what you believe because you believe"


I'm sure that's what it sounds like to you, but no, that's not exactly right.


"Ah. In that case then, I think we'd both agree that an adult who still believes in Santa is ..."

Well, if you want to get technical, St Nick was a real person...lol
And yes, an adult (of normal mental capabilities) who still believes in Santa has problems. But Santa and God are not the same at all.


"Um, no you didn't. You implied you were a literal parakeet, which you are not."

No, that implication was your assumption.
And it was just a metaphor. Point being, I tell you something true that does not line up with something you "know" to be true based on your limited or misguided understanding, and so you reject it.


"And how do you know the Bible is a reliable source? Because God said so xP So have many other deities about themselves."

Well, I'm pretty sure we've discussed the Bible already...but, it's without contradiction and completely accurate. And God is the only deity who is...all the things I said in message 92.


"Logic is not subjective, people can just be faulty with their path of logic."

Sort of splitting hairs, aren't you? Logic is the way a person reasons or thinks. And yes that is going to be subjective.


"You don't know a word of the Bible is true."

Well, yes, actually I do. You just don't believe that.


"...I know...? That was what the rest of that was about...? :P"

Ok, I'm confused now. huh? lol


"I meant that if you can't interpret the same thing with anything remotely close to consistency, why would you go along with it?
For example, you can't even agree how long Creation lasted, whether the days were literal or not...."

They were literal days. "The evening and the morning were the first day"
But the Bible is not really 'open to interpretation'. It's specific. Those trying to find hidden meanings in things are wrong. Now there might be things that aren't clear because they require some study - of the culture or the language or whatever, but that's not really what your example implied. Your example was a doctrinal thing. And yes, there are different denominations because people have different doctrines. They see things in the Bible - read too much into them - when they don't need to. Example: Calvanists. They take the word 'predestination' out of context and change a whole big chunk of doctrine on free will.
But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with them or that they aren't Christians. It just means we disagree.


"Then what do you take as your proof?"
Proof of what? Salvation? I'm a little confused at this point, lol
Well, it's not really my job to determine who is saved and who is not. My job is to make sure I'm ok and give the gospel when the opportunity arises.
But Biblically speaking: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." Rom 10:9
Faith. That's it. No feelings involved.


message 47: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments (I saw your comment, I'll reply when I have more time.)


Hell's Little Angel (The Ass of Politics) (donkey) | 17 comments Point being, it was true even though there was no solid proof. And it was theorized long before it was actually accepted. Probably thousands of people died needlessly because they refused to accept the 'crazy rantings' of Ignaz Semmelweis.

If god does turn out to be real, I'll admit that I could have done so much better believing in him beforehand. But what would have happened if they'd decided to base the entire medical system on the existence of germs as they do now...and it turned out in the end that there weren't any germs after all? Countless lives would have been lost as well and it would have been a lot of effort for nothing. If proof ever does arise of a god (not specifically your god), I will certainly abandon my beliefs and accept this god, as I would expect any rational human being to do regardless of what god or goddess this is. But unless this happens, I'd rather not devote myself to something so uncertain in the short life I have.


You don't have to compare one thing to another to know there are faults. Again I say, we do not know everything. Science and medicine have been wrong time and again. Human logic is fallible because people make mistakes.

And you don't make mistakes? What happens if you turn out to be wrong, and Allah is the one true god? If Satan is as crafty as you say he is, he could be deluding you right now into believing in Yahweh with all your heart and you could be headed straight for hell yourself.


So yes, faith in God does save from Hell, but it's not the refusal to believe that sends people there, it's their own actions that do that. It is definitely a choice.

But why is the punishment so harsh? Let's say there's a five-year-old child, who's only sin in their life has been that he lied to his mother about brushing his teeth one night. Now let's say that this child dies in a car crash the next day. He hasn't had time to even have a clear conception of what god is, let alone accept him into his life as you have. Does this child really deserve to be called a follower of Satan and be damned to hell for all eternity for such a petty and innocent crime???


it's good that you question things. I can understand that you want proof - who doesn't right? But the fact is, some things defy logic. Things happen, and scientifically speaking, there is no reason for it. Sometimes there isn't an answer. Or not one that we have found yet.

I've never seen anything happen to me or anyone else around me that I couldn't easily explain with science, logic, or human nature. But that's on a personal level--on a grander scale I can certainly see where your point could be applied. But a miraculous discovery or happening can't be written off to the workings of a supernatural being; not without thinking about it, anyway. We can't just label the unknown as god, especially if we later find a suitable explanation.


As I said, Hell is not the punishment for belief or lack thereof, it's the punishment for sin. Hell was not created for people at all. It was created for Satan and his followers. And if you reject God, you follow Satan by default.

But again I ask, why is it eternal? Why must endless suffering be the only punishment available for all degrees of sin? We've been talking for a while, you've had a chance to evaluate me to a certain extent. By your definitions, I'm pretty much damned right now. And if the rapture happens on the 21st like christian radio keeps saying it's going to, then I'm really screwed because I've only got about 17 days left...Do I really seem like I'm a suitable candidate for eternal torture? True, I'm far from perfect and I have many of my own shortcomings. But any reasonable person can see that I am undeserving of being enslaved for all eternity in a fiery pit of doom simply because I had an argument with my mom last week and I stole a pack of gum from Target when I was four.


Name one.

I'm sure if I thought hard enough and did a bit of research, I could come up with quite a few. But I'll just mention the most obvious one and go into detail with him. Each bullet point is addressing each of your requirements in order.

Allah

-It depends on what you define as "proven anything". Those of the islamic religion will easily argue that Allah has proven himself time and time again throughout human existence. And this could generate an entirely different discussion...so I'll leave that one as partially unanswered.

-The islamic argue that Allah is the one constant in a world of undefined. Therefore, it is impossible for Allah to die because death is the opposite of Allah. Allah is the forever, the eternity, therefore incapable of dying.

-The islamic religion is very like christianity in the fact that faith is the very core of both's existence. Both Allah and Yahweh have rules and guidelines as to how one should conduct themselves in daily life and what is classified as sin. But in order to access these guidelines, one must first accept either god into his or her life and give themselves wholly to them. Everything else after that is partially extraneous.

-I could hardly argue that either Yahweh or Allah are without contradiction, so I'm not the best to address this point.

-Allah, like Yahweh, is not a deist god. He is a personal god who actively participates in the daily lives of his followers, and often gives them advice in times of struggle.

-Allah and the prophets who supposedly communicate with him often inspire hope, and the translation of "islam" is peace.


I can't really see why anyone would respect someone like this at all really, to be honest.

Oh please don't judge her simply from this video, she's someone I very much respect and who practically never loses her composure like she does in this video. It's actually totally out of character for her, and if you'd like to see what I mean I suggest seeing more of her videos. She's actually a very intelligent person who thinks before she talks and shares her vast ideas. I hope your opinion of her wasn't already soiled by this video, even if you don't agree with her opinions (which I'm sure you won't) you'll certainly respect her perfect composure and her speaking ability.

I probably shouldn't be saying "her", by the way. You'll see why as you see more of her...


But quite frankly, she was praying to God, who yes could hear her in the literal sense, but did not hear her in the spiritual sense because she was not His child.

Kristen, she was six. How could she have possibly been informed enough to make the conscious choice of being "god's child" in the way you describe? How could she have made that decision beforehand? All she knew was what she'd been told, and to a reasonable god, that would be more than enough.


And maybe He did intervene, just not in the way she wanted. She's not dead. Sometimes some really awful things happen - even to Christians - but that doesn't mean that God wasn't watching or that He didn't care. It just meant, He had other plans.

And what would have happened if she hadn't ended up surviving? That's often how abusive relationships turn out, especially if there's a child involved. Would that have simply been part of god's plan? Or would it have been because god was simply apathetic?


But suffering is a part of life. We live in a sin cursed world and sin hurts - causes pain.
We all have trials and bad situations at times - some more than others. The fact that God seldom chooses some big flashy way to rescue us from that is not evidence that He does not love us. It just means He didn't do things our way or the way we thought He should.


It doesn't have to be flashy, it just has to be recognizable in a way that's obvious to the person at hand. If god is trying to appeal to me, personally, then why isn't he addressing me in a way that he know's he get to me? By providing scientific proof of his existence. If god really wants me to accept him, he'll provide the tools necessary for doing so.


If you study the human body, it's SO intricate. How anyone can believe it just happened is beyond me really. There are systems that work perfectly together and back up systems if something goes wrong.

There's also faults. We have armpit and genital hair that fails to keep us warm, we have a tailbone yet no tail, and the entire male population possesses a bladder system that's far more intricate than it needs to be upon close examination. I'm not trying to be pessimistic, I can certainly see the beauty and fine details of the human body. I'm just trying to be realistic.


But how is it inconsistent exactly?

That's a very, very broad question that I could use as a foundation to write an entire paper...cosmologists such as Stephen Hawking have pointed out many flaws and inconsistencies within the most intricate of details of the physical universe. If you really want to know, I suggest reading his book: A Brief History of Time. I really hope it doesn't seem like I'm dodging the question, here. It's just far to big of a question to answer and my attention span is far too short to even begin to--Oh look, itsa bird! :D


haha, very true. My paper was on prejudice. Thankfully done. But I should be studying, now...lol

Interesting topic. We're reading To Kill A Mockingbird right now in Literature, so I expect I'll have to do something along those lines sometime in the near future.


Yes, exactly. I do have to admit, I have gotten pretty sarcastic once or twice when I just got fed up, lol

Ooooohhhh, sarcasm. I think you've just exposed your wild side to me, Kristen. Better slow down, there. I think you may be going too fast... ;D


Well, good luck with all that. *shiver* 5AM! I'm doing good if I get up by 11...

*sigh* I envy you...I HATE waking up early but it's an hour drive to the school I go to and when you're a boy-obsessed beauty queen like myself you just HAVE to get up two hours early to get ready. Only three more weeks until summer...that is, if the rapture doesn't happen first...in which case I'm damned. Oh well, at least I'll still spend my summer in the heat. =D


message 49: by ♥ Rachel♥ (new)

♥ Rachel♥ sHE beLIEveD (I_got_a_jar_of_dirt) | 67 comments "no, that's not exactly right."
Then explain.

"St Nick was a real person"
But he didn't drive a sleigh of reindeer around the world and eat people's cookies and milk in exchange for presents xD

"Santa and God are not the same at all."
Just like unicorns and Santa are different.

"that implication was your assumption."
No....

"I tell you something true that does not line up with something you "know" to be true based on your limited or misguided understanding, and so you reject it."
How do you know it's not the other way around? You have one source: the Bible. I have the entire world.

"it's without contradiction and completely accurate"
No.

"God is the only deity who is...all the things I said in message 92."
I'd be repeating Hell's Little Angel were I to answer this :P

"Logic is the way a person reasons or thinks"
No. It is a system of principles of proof/inference.

"the way a person reasons or thinks. And yes that is going to be subjective."
Which is why going with your personal little interpretation of a couple ancient scrolls is a terrible basis for faith?

"Ok, I'm confused now. huh? lol"
That's why I added the bit about not everyone agreeing about the warm fuzzies being sufficient evidence - because you don't but Mayday does.

"Those trying to find hidden meanings in things are wrong"
How do you know?

"that doesn't mean that I have to agree with them or that they aren't Christians. It just means we disagree."
But it means that there is no reason to think that your interpretation is true. Pardon - no true reason.

"Proof of what? Salvation?"
The Bible.

"Faith. That's it. No feelings involved."
...Faith = feeling.


message 50: by Kristen (last edited May 06, 2011 01:26AM) (new)

Kristen | 90 comments Mod
Hell's Little Angel wrote: "Point being, it was true even though there was no solid proof. And it was theorized long before it was actually accepted. Probably thousands of people died needlessly because they refused to accept..."

Well actually, had they listened to Semmelweis, it wouldn't have been much effort at all. He didn't have the exact science perfect or anything, but he's the one who figured out that handwashing between patients was so important - it's actually a really interesting story. He saw women dying left and right from 'childbirth fever' and thought maybe they were somehow contaminating the patients by just jumping from one to the other. All he wanted was for them to take a minute between and wash. He even had his own successful results and they refused to give him the time of day. They were too proud to admit that they might not know everything and so out of spite they rejected his 'crazy notions' that wouldn't have been a big deal to just try. If no germs existed it just wouldn't have done anything. Instead they drove him insane and contributed to thousands of needless deaths.
Oh, and then they started thinking that maybe he was on to something.


"And you don't make mistakes?"

No, I've said several times that humans make mistakes, and yes, I am human. My point wasn't to say that I'm always right about absolutely everything. My point was that, people make mistakes. And scientists are people.
God does not make mistakes. I choose to put my trust in something infallible rather than something fallible.


"What happens if you turn out to be wrong..."

Well, that's where faith comes in. But to be honest, if I did turn out to be wrong and there was no God(not that I'm saying that's even possible), I wouldn't really be sacrificing anything. If I were to be wrong, and we simply cease to exist, then it really doesn't mean anything bad for me that I've believed otherwise. On the contrary, it's very very bad for those who don't believe as I do, if I'm right.

"...and Allah is the one true god? If Satan is as crafty as you say he is, he could be deluding you right now into believing in Yahweh with all your heart and you could be headed straight for hell yourself."

Well, as far as Allah goes - he's not even who most people think he is. Many people say he's the same deity as my God. That is untrue, he's an ancient pagan god with a "new" face.

But ok, given your scenario, if I were wrong, Satan wouldn't exist - at least not the way that he actually does. Different religions have different views on evil. I'm not sure what Islams view of him is actually...
But no, Satan would not deceive someone to believe in something good - God. His goal is to drive people away from God, not towards Him. Satan is evil and it's pretty easy to see him working in many different religions with various gods. Since you brought it up - Islam. If you look at the roots of Islam, what the religion actually says, and the 'fruit' of it - there's no good in it whatsoever. It's completely full of hatred and evil.
http://www.bibleprobe.com/muhammad.htm
This is an excellent website detailing everything in the Quran and Islam and why it's wrong.
He even has a section on knowing false gods: "False gods always demand the blood of innocents."

But in all false gods, there are inconsistencies. There are limitations and requirements - works, sacrifices, etc.
There are none of those things with God other than the requirement of faith.

And as I pointed out already, God is many many things that false gods are not.
It's not really a hard decision.


"But why is the punishment so harsh? Let's say there's a five-year-old child... for such a petty and innocent crime???"

First of all, that child has to be past the age of reason. He has to be able to understand the concept of God and salvation for him to go anywhere other than Heaven.
Secondly, you are applying human logic to God's laws. To you it seems 'petty and innocent' but to God it's wicked and vile. To help us understand how vile it is, God describes sin as a dog going back to eat his vomit - absolutely disgusting.
Sin is sin, anyway you slice it. Even a "little white lie" - there's no such thing. Sin is breaking God's law (the 10 commandments) and in breaking that law(even once), we earn consequences. If we did not, God would not be God. He would be unjust and a liar.
If God were to allow people to just go to Heaven when they're not "that bad" by our standards, He would have to allow sin in Heaven and that cannot happen. It is impossible. Heaven is perfect. If there were sin there, it wouldn't be.
And God, above all else is holy(separate). He cannot be in the presence of sin or He ceases to be holy.

And I guarantee that child has sinned much much more than one lie in his short life. We are born sinners. We do it naturally - if you've spent any time at all around young kids, it's pretty obvious. They lie and steal other kids toys, hit, and throw temper tantrums. It's all sin. So, no that kid definitely sinned more than that, unless he were supernatural.

And by the way, that's an oxymoron: 'innocent crime'


"if the rapture happens on the 21st like christian radio keeps saying it's going to"

lol I would definitely discount that radio station. It's pretty foolish for people to pinpoint an exact day for the rapture when the Bible clearly says nobody knows when it will be. You would think people would have figured that out by now...But that's beside the point...


"But again I ask, why is it eternal? Why must endless suffering be the only punishment available for all degrees of sin?"

Why is punishment in Hell eternal? Because that's the payment for sin. It's such a huge debt, you can never ever repay it yourself. Which is why Christ had to die on the cross. He was the only one who was without sin - the only one who was capable of paying that debt. It was torment for God to send His Son to die on the cross, but it was the only way any of us could ever bypass Hell. If there had been another way or if we were capable of paying the debt ourselves, He wouldn't have had to die.
And It's not like there are specific sentences for specific sins. Sin is pretty much all the same in God's eyes - vile and unacceptable. Now, there are degrees of torment. Someone who just never accepted Christ will suffer less than someone like say, Bin Laden. But we have all broken God's laws and we all deserve Hell.


"We've been talking for a while, you've had a chance to evaluate me to a certain extent. By your definitions, I'm pretty much damned right now. Do I really seem like I'm a suitable candidate for eternal torture?"

Well, it's not really up to me. It's God's laws that you broke. Personally, I'm glad people don't get to evaluate one another's qualifications for Heaven because I'm pretty sure we'd all be in trouble. There's always someone that hates us.

But let me ask you this, If I were to go out and rob a bank and shoot five people, killing 4 of them, would it be fair for me to just go free?
No, I would deserve the penalty for my actions, if there is any justice. I might not think I deserved any punishment, after all, in my mind, those people had it coming and I don't really see murder as a big deal(ahem, terrorists), so it's not really a bad thing that I killed them. And while we're at it, I deserved all that money. Someone stole that much from me before. I deserved it.
Do you see where our own logic in what we deserve or how bad we are, can be a problem???
God is the ultimate judge. He is "no respecter of persons" - completely fair.
By your own admission, you are not perfect. If he were to allow you into His perfect domain while other people have to pay for their sins, would that be fair? And in doing so, it would corrupt Heaven.


"It depends on what you define as "proven anything". Those of the islamic religion will easily argue that Allah..."

I refer you back to that website I mentioned.
I'm not talking arguable proof - if I cannot tell you my experiences are proof of God, you cannot expect me to accept that from Muslims.
I'm talking prophecies. There are none in the quran. Jesus birth alone, fulfilled something like 100 prophecies. Not to mention the events of today that have been foretold in the Bible.

Allah and Yahweh are NOTHING alike. Allah says kill the infidel. God says love your enemies and to pray for them. Allah demands specific actions of it's believers, God does not. God loves every single person on earth, Allah does not even care for his own followers. God gave us the Bible which is complete and perfect, The quran is full of errors. God had many prophets, Allah had one(Mohammed). Prophets must make prophecies to be called prophets. Mohammed made one prophecy that was without any specific information. I could go on and on, but all that is outlined in that website.
Islam is nothing like Christianity.

"the translation of "islam" is peace."

No, that is a lie.
"The word "Islam" does not mean "peace." Muslims who tell you that the word “Islam” means “peace” are lying to you. The word "Islam" is an Arabic word. The word for peace in Arabic is “solh,” and not Islam. Islam is derived from the root word “taslim,” which means submission or surrender."

Nothing about Islam is peaceful. The "peace" they refer to is within the Muslim world. Islam is about world domination. Want proof? Look at the life of Mohammed and how they treat their women in those countries - they are routinely abused, mutilated, and murdered and it's perfectly fine under Sharia Law.
No, Islam is nothing like Christianity. And no, I do not agree, Allah fulfills none of those characteristics that God does.


"Oh please don't judge her simply from this video, she's someone I ve..."

I could personally care less how great a speaker someone is. I judge people by their values and heart. She gushes hatred and bitterness - something I cannot respect.
I work with mentally handicapped people and I'll tell you one thing, they certainly aren't great speakers, but they have the most beautiful hearts of anyone, despite their difficult lives and limitations.

"I probably shouldn't be saying "her", by the way. You'll see why as you see more of her..."

oh...lol, oh well, I'm going to continue to say 'her' b/c it's just easier.

"Kristen, she was six. How could she have possibly been informed enough to make the conscious..."

I understand that and as I pointed out, He may have answered her prayer, just not the way she wanted.
But people have this idea that prayer is just 'God do this for me' or 'make this happen'. And that's not what it is. It's half of a relationship with God. A relationship of communication, not just your own personal genie to give you what you want when you want it.

That relationship is a spiritual relationship. When we are born, we are spiritually dead because we are born sinners. Until that is rectified and you are "born again", you cannot communicate with God. God is a spirit and if your spirit is dead, it cannot communicate.
It's not God not caring or not loving, it's just the way it is.
Sort of like if you were in a coma and want to tell your mother you're hungry. You know she's there. She loves you and wants to hear you ask, but despite all your best efforts, you can't until you wake up from your coma. Your mom might know that you are hungry since it's been a while since you ate and she might do that for you, but you can't actually communicate with her the way you are.

And I was five when I became a Christian, I know people who were three. Granted every child is different, but by six, you can usually understand. And it's not 'the choice to become a Christian'. It's faith that Jesus died for your sins.


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