Philosophy discussion
Philosophy in Literature
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What are some great philosophical novels?
The Outsider/L'Etranger - Albert Camus The Name Of The Rose - Umberto Eco
Nausea - Jean Paul Sartre
Candide - Voltaire
The Trial - Franz Kafka
Probably post some more later...
Vikz wrote: "I would also add the novels of 
"Could you reccomend a particular Murdoch novel? I haven't read any, and wondered where the best place to start would be?
Any of her work would be a useful read but I really love the following The Sea, The Sea
The Bell
Under the Net
I'll throw in the Naturalist Authors:-Theodre Dreiser, (American Tragedy, Sister Carrie),
-Jack London, (The Sea Wolf, The Iron Heel)
-Frank Norris, (The Octupus, McTeague),
-Edith Wharton, (House of Mirth, Age of Innocence),
etc.
Wouldn't any excellent novel be philosophical?I wondered about this reading Nabakov. All his books seem to point at some central idea or other, but he denied that this was ever the case, and it seems people often read more into his novels than he intended. But the novels themselves are so unusual it's a hard question to judge.
I'll throw in the Naturalist AuthorsI like literary naturalism, and it has its roots in Schopenhauer and in Darwin, so therein lies the philosophical connection.
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My own favorite philosophical novels have existentialism as their philosophical basis.
One I strongly recommend is Stoner; it is an absolutely perfect exposition of existential themes.
Another is Naguib Mahfouz's Cairo Trilogy, the third novel of which illustrates existentialism in a non-Western context.
As a playwright, I always must keep in mind that philosophical ideas must SUPPORT the play, NOT take it over.Good literature, in my humble view, cannot reduce itself to philosophical arguments.
And, especially with drama, that which is performed, a script with a philosophical argument at its forefront WOULD BORE THE AUDIENCE.
Drama demands action. And, I would say, that literature demands specific story, specific characters, etc. Otherwise, ZZZZZzzzzzzzzz.
Despite this, of course, many great works, have philosophical underpinnings which "come to light" in reading, performance, etc.
Patrice wrote: "Wouldn't any excellent novel be philosophical?"No, I don't think so. The Davinci Code can be considered a good novel but it is lacking in the deep philosophical investigation of its premise (Jesus's lineage). This idea had serious potential for a good novel but became a movie script about puzzle solving.
Both Proust and Joyce have incredible insights and radical ways of exploring literature but I haven't walked away from their books thinking "wow, that's deep", but rather "wow, that's cool". Their sense of story telling may be creative and profound in many ways but doesn't explore a certain philosophical idea in any meaningful way.
Actually the list you gave Patrice is exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for, having read all of them except Huck Finn, I think there is something particularly insightful about the stories those authors tell. Moby Dick being my favorite on the list conveys more about the dark side of humanity and our social interactions then any text book I ever read on the subject.
There's nothing like walking away from a Dostoevsky book with a completely new perception of reality. Ummm, that's the stuff!
I've never read the DaVinci Code but maybe my personal definition of an "excellent" novel is one that does exactly what you just described, gives you a new perception of reality.I have read Portrait of the Artist as A Young Man and what I saw in it was a personal vision of ascending Plato's divided line. Joyce starts out as a child who lives through the senses. He is in the allegorical "cave" and then, breaks through and out of the cave and escapes to become a writer. Steven Daedilus is named after the mythical father who created wings in order to escape the labyrinth. He found his freedom.
I thought it was an extremely philosophical work. If not for that, it would have just been a story.
Patrice wrote: "I have read Portrait of the Artist as A Young Man and what I saw in it was a personal vision of ascending Plato's divided line."Yes, I was probably unfair with Joyce. If I identify with any literary character at all it is definitely Steven Dedalus of Portrait. I guess when thinking of Joyce I think more of the stream of consciousness writing style then the content.
I haven't read alot of good books but I always go after the big names and titles. Usually the canon provides but I neglect so much. What happens when a person runs out of good reading material, is it possible, or is there so much unique stuff out there to keep one busy a lifetime?
Brian wrote: "What happens when a person runs out of good reading material, is it possible, or is there so much unique stuff out there to keep one busy a lifetime?"Egad. How can one lifetime even start to encompass it all?
Plus -- every book worth serious reading is worth re-reading, usually many times. One could spend several very profitable lifetimes just reading the works of Aristotle, Plato, and Kant.
But as Patric enoted, if you like big names and titles, Classics and the Western Canon is where you should be. We have read Don Quixote, are just finishing up Les Miserables, and our next two books will be Anna Karenina and then Middlemarch. Talk about serious, big names and titles, they don't get much bigger than those (I'm sure Dickens will be coming along before too long.)
Brian wrote: "if Ayn Rand is in their don't be shy, go ahead, we're all friends here. ;) "Why the hesitancy? Is there any novelist who has been more committed to a unified philosophical approach in his or her novels than Rand?
Everyman wrote:Why the hesitancy? Is there any novelist who has been more committed to a unified philosophical approach..."
lol! The hesitancy isn't for me. I don't have a problem with Rand but she is usually the spark which starts incendiary debate in philosophy. Many consider her work vulgar, others think her something of a plagiarizer of Nietzsche. I have no problem with her. The Fountainhead gets put into my top ten lists. Atlas Shrugged was meh.
I'm surprised nobody has started an Ayn Rand or Objectivism thread yet. In any case, someone will sooner or later. I read The Fountainhead, but I didn't feel an urgent need to go on to Atlas Shrugged afterwards, as many readers did. Rand worked on a unified philosophy in her lifetime, but in her novels much of her thinking is absent or inexplicit, so it's hard to read the novels alone as the basis of her philosophy. The authority on Ayn Rand's philosophy is Leonard Peikoff, whose book Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand puts her ideas (with her approval) within a recognizably philosophical framework.
My FtF book group has been reading Ayn Rand and having such enjoyable discussions. I'm actually preferring Atlas as the characters are more fully developed (although there is no doubt who is a "good guy" and who is not) and I'm finding myself just laughing --- which I hadn't expect to---at some of the scenes/lines.But it's not a book one reads and discovers/discerns a philosophy. The philosophy is cover-to-cover...but it's handed to the reader. No effort required. (Which, really, is so un-Randian, yes?)
My son just finished Atlas Shrugged. He loved it but said that there were sections that he skipped because they were just philosophical treaties that he'd already gotten from the book.
Tyler wrote: "I'll throw in the Naturalist AuthorsI like literary naturalism, and it has its roots in Schopenhauer and in Darwin, so therein lies the philosophical connection.
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My own favorite phi..."
Hey Tyler,
This post is late. Just wanted to relay a "Thank you" for the recommendation.
Sometimes, my mind wanders . . .
--R.A.
YW, R.a. -- In the case of Stoner, I thought it was a brilliant exposition of existentialism, and very different from what we usually associate with existentialism, novels such as those of Camus.
If you can find a production (preferably LORT) of Beckett's Waiting for Godot in your general area, you may like some of the surprising facets of it as it comes out in performance.I read it so long ago that I can't remember whether some of "those facets" were written. But, I think so since the I've seen more than one production where it comes to the fore.
Speaking of existentialist points of view, I rather like Andre Gide and The Immoralist comes to mind. Another (whom which I don't especially like but others do) is John Fowles and I recall thinking The French Lieutenant's Woman rather shallow. However I find that with most novels concerning philosophy miss the mark in this way.I was wondering whether, if we include Joyce's Ulysses, we ought not to include Homer also.
When Nietzsche Wept written by Irvin D Yalom is a philosophical novel on the redemptive power of friendship and overcoming obsession. Reading this novel doesn't require background in philosophy, and the author cleverly explained any technical terms in simple language. I learn a little about Nietzsche's philosophy and psychotheraphy from this book and I am impressed with the author's blending of story and philosophy with real people.
I would add The Black Prince to your list, but agree that all of her novels that I have read are philosophical.Vikz wrote: "Any of her work would be a useful read but I really love the following
The Sea, The Sea
The Bell
Under the Net"
Aziz wrote: "Vikz wrote: "I would also add the novels of
"Could you reccomend a particular Murdoch novel? I haven't read any, and wondered where the best place to start would be?"
I saw a sort of Midwestern stoicism in Stoner's approach to life. This book has the advantage of being beautifully written - not always the case with philosophical novels.Tyler wrote: "YW, R.a. -- In the case of Stoner, I thought it was a brilliant exposition of existentialism, and very different from what we usually associate with existentialism, novels such as those of Camus."
Gide is a good addition to this list and I would add his novel, "The Counterfeiters" to your recommendation.Rhonda wrote: "Speaking of existentialist points of view, I rather like Andre Gide and The Immoralist comes to mind. Another (whom which I don't especially like but others do) is John Fowles and I recall thinking..."
I would suggest that "Notes from Underground" can be seen as a precursor to Existentialism. It also contains arguments against Utilitarianism which Dostoevsky saw as representative of Western European thought.Brian wrote: "I always come across novels that somehow exemplify a genre of philosophy. I think the best example is Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground as highlighting existentialism.
What are some really gre..."
Aziz wrote: "The Outsider/L'Etranger - Albert Camus The Name Of The Rose - Umberto Eco
Nausea - Jean Paul Sartre
Candide - Voltaire
The Trial - Franz Kafka
Hi! Great list. I'd love to hear why you nominated The Name of the Rose. It happens to be one of my favorite books, ever, but it never occurred to me to think of it as a philosophical novel. Thanks!
Probably post some more later...
"
I agree with Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground but I also think Ayn Rand's "Anthem" should be considered.
I'd like to add the Colin Wilson novels:
The Mind Parasites
The Space Vampires (also released as "Lifeforce")
The Philosopher's Stone
They are very entertaining and full of thought provoking ideas. Not a bad combination!
And I'll add Howards End to the list of books that have a philosophical angle. It has several great discussions and a general question of whether "doers" contribute more to the good than "thinkers."
From my reading, I would suggest: 'The Glass Bead Game' by Hermann Hesse, and 'The Magic Mountain' by Thomas Mann.
Tolstoy's "War and Peace" changed the way I look at the world. Without giving the book away, because the huge philosophical nugget is delivered at the end of the book, Tolstoy described a different perspective on how/why events unfold the way they do.Between Tolstoy (W&P and Anna Karenina) and Dostoevsky (Notes from Underground and Brothers Karamozov), you have a small mountain of philosophical literature.
And while I'm at it, I'll send a shout out to Thoreau's "Walden". Nothing like a good inward meditation in the wilderness.
Aziz wrote: "The Outsider/L'Etranger - Albert Camus The Name Of The Rose - Umberto Eco
Nausea - Jean Paul Sartre
Candide - Voltaire
The Trial - Franz Kafka
Probably post some more later...
"
OK, since you gave some of the great ones, let's try to complete your list with other famous and great names:
Klossowski P (about all of his works) and of course Bataille Georges and the amazing Borges.
Heart of Darkness is also, perhaps, one of the greatest reflexion on humanity, cruelty, and isolation - without, of course, forgetting colonialism.
Not a "novel", but a "poem", albeit Thus Spoke Zarathustra: A Book for None and All which is considered as a pure philosophical book, but is also poem, one should never forget The Book of Disquiet, awsome and so reminiscent of Nietzsche.
These are all, of course, classical references. What about science-fiction, or thrillers - and something newer than Utopia, Brave New World or 1984 ?
I am a believer in philosophy as being the essential skeleton of any novel worthy of the name novel. Many modern works of fiction don't even fall into the category novel but are more items of entertainment and serve only to divert us from the banality of the norm.
Yet true novels exist in the mire of banality. They capture the ennui of existence and elevate it as representing the essence of the common life.
Few modern authors can achieve this exalted status of real novelist. The pressures and skewed filtering of the modern publishing process kill off those non-economic works that heretofore found expression one way or another.
An author I'd like to add whose novels are filled with ideas and philosophical observations is Saul Bellow. I'm surprised more readers don't take up his books. So far I've read The Victim, Seize the Day, Herzog, Mr. Sammler's Planet, and Herzog. Of all these, I think Mr. Sammler's Planet is the most philosophical.
Besides being able to translate philosophy and ideas into literature, Saul Bellow is one of the best prose stylists I've ever read. I'd like all philosophy buffs to consider a Saul Bellow novel if they haven't already read one!
Perhaps my idea of philosphical novels is not correct, but if I find any book that is thought provoking, I believe it has some philosophical basis.
The Russian novelists such as Fyodor Dostoyevsky (particularly NFU) and Tolstoy (particularly W&P)are two of my favourites. Of course " Don Quixote" has to be there as it is used as a adjective in many books you read.
But I would like to mention a few books that had a significant impact on my perspective that may not be considered classical or good philosophical novels.
" The Way of All Flesh" by Samuel Butler
" Justine" by Marquis de Sade -The Dark Side of the Enlightenment
"Germinal" by Emile Zola
"The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera
" Arrowsmith", "Babbit", and "Main Street" by Sinclair Lewis.
"The Awakening" by Kate Chopin
" The Razor's Edge" by W. Somerset Maugham.
There are other novels as well, but I'm already over the number five. Your own life circumstances probably is a significant factor in determining which books stay with you in some permanent way.
The Russian novelists such as Fyodor Dostoyevsky (particularly NFU) and Tolstoy (particularly W&P)are two of my favourites. Of course " Don Quixote" has to be there as it is used as a adjective in many books you read.
But I would like to mention a few books that had a significant impact on my perspective that may not be considered classical or good philosophical novels.
" The Way of All Flesh" by Samuel Butler
" Justine" by Marquis de Sade -The Dark Side of the Enlightenment
"Germinal" by Emile Zola
"The Unbearable Lightness of Being" by Milan Kundera
" Arrowsmith", "Babbit", and "Main Street" by Sinclair Lewis.
"The Awakening" by Kate Chopin
" The Razor's Edge" by W. Somerset Maugham.
There are other novels as well, but I'm already over the number five. Your own life circumstances probably is a significant factor in determining which books stay with you in some permanent way.
We are in general agreement that Dostoevsky has to be the master of the philosophical novel. As to Tolstoy, I read Anna Karenina but not War and Peace. I didn't think of AK as all that philosophical, but W&P is said to be different.I've read Arrowsmith. I agree that it's philosophical in the sense of trying to introduce the reader to a scientific way of thinking and living.
I've heard The Razor's Edge is philosophical, and I have it on my to-read list. So many readers give it high marks I think I have to have a look at it.
The Unbearable Lightness of Being I also have heard good reviews on, and I've heard it has a good philosophical aspect to it. I read The Book of Laughter and Forgetting and thought it had many good philosophical observations that boosted the writing.
I'm not familiar with Germinal and The Awakening. Are they good books?
Your own life circumstances probably is a significant factor in determining which books stay with you in some permanent way.
Yes, I think that's true. Often I see a philosophical angle or underpinning to a book based on my personal experience, but when I put it in a review, nobody else seems to see that same thing in the plot or writing. I feel that way about a book I'm reading now, but I have no idea, when I finally do a review on it, how I can covey the philosophy I see in it to readers who didn't notice it.
I wrote a review of Germinal in April 2010.Probably one of my better ones. The realism was quite intense.What does the idealistic communist do to help the people working in the terrible working environment of the coal mines in northern France? Considered one of the greatest French novels. One of the few books I rated with 5 stars.
The Awakening hit a personal note as we had a family member who had suicidal tendencies. A couple of quotes:
" I would give up the unessential; I would give up my money; I would give my life for my children; but I wouldn't give myself."
"Nature takes no account of moral consequences of arbitrary conditions which we create , and which we feel obliged to maintain at any cost."
I loved War and Peace and not very keen on AK. The war made some characters think about the meaning of life. I read it in 2002 and it sticks with me. AK, in my opinion, is over rated.
" Nothing is trivial and nothing is important, it's all the same-only to save oneself from it as best one can."
" Power is the collective will of the people transferred , by expressed or tacit consent to their chosen rulers."
" He had the unfortunate capacity many men, especially Russians, have of seeing and believing in the possibility of goodness and truth, but of seeing the evil and falsehood of life too clearly to be able to take a serious part in it." (Reminds me of NFU by FD)
" He made it a rule to read through all the books he bought...a task he first imposed upon himself as a duty, but which afterwords became a habit of affording him a special kind of pleasure and a consciousness of being occupied with serious matters."
The last quote I could really relate to myself.
I don't worry if others don't see the book in the same way as myself. It's not that unusal for me. If you mention it , there may be the odd person who will then see it or feel like you do but is not willing to express it.
It happened to me with Howards End. I related it to Future Shock and someone told me he felt the same thing. The fear of alienation and loss of place.
I often had the opposite view of the English teacher when in high school. A friend who has a PhD in Engllish tells me I was an English teachers nightmare.
The Awakening hit a personal note as we had a family member who had suicidal tendencies. A couple of quotes:
" I would give up the unessential; I would give up my money; I would give my life for my children; but I wouldn't give myself."
"Nature takes no account of moral consequences of arbitrary conditions which we create , and which we feel obliged to maintain at any cost."
I loved War and Peace and not very keen on AK. The war made some characters think about the meaning of life. I read it in 2002 and it sticks with me. AK, in my opinion, is over rated.
" Nothing is trivial and nothing is important, it's all the same-only to save oneself from it as best one can."
" Power is the collective will of the people transferred , by expressed or tacit consent to their chosen rulers."
" He had the unfortunate capacity many men, especially Russians, have of seeing and believing in the possibility of goodness and truth, but of seeing the evil and falsehood of life too clearly to be able to take a serious part in it." (Reminds me of NFU by FD)
" He made it a rule to read through all the books he bought...a task he first imposed upon himself as a duty, but which afterwords became a habit of affording him a special kind of pleasure and a consciousness of being occupied with serious matters."
The last quote I could really relate to myself.
I don't worry if others don't see the book in the same way as myself. It's not that unusal for me. If you mention it , there may be the odd person who will then see it or feel like you do but is not willing to express it.
It happened to me with Howards End. I related it to Future Shock and someone told me he felt the same thing. The fear of alienation and loss of place.
I often had the opposite view of the English teacher when in high school. A friend who has a PhD in Engllish tells me I was an English teachers nightmare.
Here's a book with a distinct philosophical tie-in: The Book of Disquiet.Much or even most of the book looks at human life and actions not as matters of free will, but as strictly determined. Whatever you think about that particular issue, the author expresses himself exceptionally well.
Nietzsche's Thus Spake ZarathustraJoseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness
Dostoevsky's Notes from Underground, The House of the Dead and The Brothers Karamazov
Sartre's Nausea
Marquis de Sade's Justine
Kundera's The Unbearable Lightness of Being
Welcome Ali
I agree with all your choices . Have Heart of Darkness on my to read shelf.
I really enjoyed "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" as it takes place in my own time. Great book. de Sade's "Justine" is under rated in my mind. Have only read parts of Sartre's Nausea as part of a book " The Philosophy of Jean Paul Sartre edited by Robert Denoon Cumming. " Being and Nothingness" took up half the text. Trying to get up the energy to read "Thus Spake Zarathustra' Have read a small book on interpreting Nietzsche's works. I'm actually trying to get through "Paradise Lost" at the moment. I sometimes read more than one book at a time and that is happening when reading PL.
I agree with all your choices . Have Heart of Darkness on my to read shelf.
I really enjoyed "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" as it takes place in my own time. Great book. de Sade's "Justine" is under rated in my mind. Have only read parts of Sartre's Nausea as part of a book " The Philosophy of Jean Paul Sartre edited by Robert Denoon Cumming. " Being and Nothingness" took up half the text. Trying to get up the energy to read "Thus Spake Zarathustra' Have read a small book on interpreting Nietzsche's works. I'm actually trying to get through "Paradise Lost" at the moment. I sometimes read more than one book at a time and that is happening when reading PL.
The Case of "Notes from Underground" is (in my opinion) beyond any other, a distinctive and without any equality when it comes to such matter, the subjects Dostoevsky approached are nowhere to be condemned as fiction and that's when the Novel made me dwell over the content.I highly recommend Nietzsche's Thus Spake Zarathustra, the philosophical Novel approaches in a certain sense, the mere importance of existence as Nietzsche opposes Schopenhauer, deals with Morality, Sociology, and evolution.
As for Sartre, I think “The Words” is very helpful as it delivers a phantasmagoric autobiography on the man and his philosophy.
Simone de Beauvoir's "The Ethics of Ambiguity" is a must read as well.
Thank you for welcoming me
Philosophy
Books mentioned in this topic
Under the Net (other topics)The Sea, the Sea (other topics)
The Bell (other topics)
The Philosopher Stone (other topics)
The Space Vampires (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Iris Murdoch (other topics)Jorge Luis Borges (other topics)
Georges Bataille (other topics)
Leonard Seet (other topics)
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What are some really great philosophical novels? List a top five if you like, and if Ayn Rand is in their don't be shy, go ahead, we're all friends here. ;)