Thank you Vince - a great book by the way. Actually two...I think you have two of the same covers...and I added the author for you.


[

Here should be the covers for the links that I added

Bentley wrote: "I love all of the little tidbits that White throws in as he tells his story:

For example - Illinois was settled from South to North.

What was most interesting and hard to fathom now; but in 1831 ..."

RFegarding cultivating below the "sea of grass" these fiction books could be of interest



My AntoniaO Pioneers!

A real view too at the immigrant participation in settling the west

Can anybody imagine cows, hogs and chickens taking over a city's roads nowadays? What a circus life must have been in this country?

Also lucky for Lincoln that Stuart came through for him again and invited him to join his firm when he became a lawyer. It is odd that White emphasizes that Lincoln as an attorney was known for "his delaying tactics."

And now in one of his first major cases he is opposite Stephen Douglas and he won the case and $250.

Once again I am questioning Lincoln's financial ability. Stuart entrusted Lincoln to keep the financial records for the firm and it was pretty obvious Lincoln was not that good at it.

And then we have all of the traveling lawyers having to go on trips together and sleeping two to three to a bed if they were even lucky to get one!!

It was Judge Logan who I think put Lincoln back on the right track as far as law was concerned by telling him to understand the logic and the passion of those who stood on the other side of the courtroom.

These chapters are really packed with a lot of information.

Illinois decided to not vote to interfere with slavery even though the state as a whole deplored slavery and its implications; but they did not feel that they could vote to jeopardize the Southern states decision to support a slave society in the South. Lincoln, however, voted NO. I sometimes feel that Lincoln doesn't see many shades of gray in his thinking...it is either one way or the other.

I wonder sometimes because of his inability to be exposed to various philosophies and many different ways of life; that his outlook and educational background were quite narrow and fixed. He seemed to come down on one side or the other; without a lot of deliberation as to the merits of the other side...not to say there were any in terms of slavery. But it seems that the last book he ever read was the one he was quoting.

From what White is saying...Illinois had both pockets of pro slavery settlers and those who were against.

White does make this statement Joe which I thought was interesting...on page 75 - "Some, like Thomas Lincoln, had immigrated to Illinois because they did not like slavery in their home states".

I wondered at this statement by White because TL had actually immigrated first to Indiana from Kentucky. Was Indiana also experiencing dissension about slavery. It probably had a lot to do with where TL went with his family versus why he left Kentucky (ejectment suit).

Right now I guess I am half way caught up. But I have been really surprised that someone with Lincoln's background and the fact that he was even described by folks who liked him as being extremely uncouth that he ever made it to the White House. What an accomplishment. Stunning really. He was really single minded about changing his lot for the better and transforming himself totally.

Douglas is coming to Illinois and will be a true rival of Lincoln. What confidence this young man might have had. He was hailed as the Little Giant when he defended Jackson.

I was wondering about Lincoln's economic background and whether he made good economic decisions as a legislature. Lincoln was adamant that the expansion continue but then Illinois ended up being saddled with a $10 million dollar millstone around its neck which ballooned to $15 million dollars and state bonds were only worth 15 cents on the dollar. Does anybody else think that this decision was financial folly?

Lincoln's next favorite book became:

Commentaries on the Laws of England A Facsimile of the First Edition of 1765-1769 by William Blackstone

Lincoln owes a lot to John Stuart who encouraged him to start the study of law.

On Religion: White stated in chapter four that "Lincoln's inclusive spirit was turned away by denominational divisions." He did not like to watch the sectarian rivalries between Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and the like.

Other books he was interested in and studied:

by C.-F. Volney

This was a work translated by Thomas Jefferson and stated that Morality was the true measure of faith. Volney advocated the overthrow of the twin medieval tyrannies of state and church. This book was written during the French Revolution.

Lincoln also read Paine:





"Lincoln read Paine's dismissal of the Bible which called it a book of lies"



Lincoln developed an affinity to Robert Burns and this increased Lincoln's skepticism. White indicated that Burns was a refugee of Scottish Calvinism and he had cried out against the Presbyterian's teachings of Predestination.

White also said that whatever Lincoln read ended up in his writing so it is obvious that these folks which he read influenced him tremendously as it related to his religious beliefs.

In fact, some folks close to Lincoln remember his reading a paper attacking divinity in the spirit of Volney and Paine. Hill, his friend, grabbed it and threw it into the fire obviously trying to save his friend from ostracism.

Lincoln seemed to be leaning towards those authors who challenged traditional Christian teachings so he was leaving behind the Baptist teachings of his parents according to White.

Lincoln became the postmaster and still had time to do other things including becoming a surveyor which he knew nothing about.

In 1834, Lincoln was starting his first term as a representative..he was the second youngest out of the 55 reps and he was 25. He received as the second part of his salary $258.

When Lincoln came home he discovered all was not well with his finances. Berry was drinking while Lincoln was away, had died and had a lot of debts. Because he was in partnership with Berry, Lincoln had to assume Berry's debts. At that point, Lincoln owed everybody. I have to say that it was admirable for Lincoln to work to pay off these debts. It reminded me in a way of Thomas, his father, paying off Sarah's dead husband's debts.

I have no idea how much money $1100 would be equated to now; but it had to be a large sum of money in 1835! White claims that this would amount to $25,000 in today's dollars.

My feeling is that Lincoln owed a lot to his wife's Mary cousin John Stuart.

Stuart (who was the cousin of Lincoln’s future wife Mary Todd) was impressed with Lincoln and encouraged him to study law.[22:] Lincoln was probably familiar with courtrooms from an early age. While the family was still in Kentucky his father was frequently involved with filing deeds, serving on juries, and attending sheriff’s sales, and Lincoln was likely aware of his father’s legal issues. When the family moved to Indiana, Lincoln lived within 15 miles of three different county courthouses and, attracted by the opportunity of hearing a good oral presentation, Lincoln, like many other people on the frontier, attended court sessions as a spectator. This practice continued when Lincoln moved to New Salem in Illinois.[23:] Noticing how often lawyers referred to them, Lincoln made a point of reading and studying the Revised Statutes of Indiana, the Declaration of Independence, and the United States Constitution.[24:] In the first half of 1835, frequently using law books borrowed from the firm of Stuart and Drummond, Lincoln began the study of law in earnest.[25:]

Source - Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lin...

Lincoln became determined to study law but at that time there were only seven Law Schools!! And none in Illinois!

Thus his new favorite book became the following:

by William Blackstone

In Chapter Five I am stunned that Lincoln would have asked Coleman Smoot, a rich farmer, if he had voted for him and then asked him to lend him $200 to buy some suitable clothing for his trip to Vadalia. That was a lot of money in those days. Lincoln immediately went out and paid $60 for a suit.

On Religion: White stated in chapter four that "Lincoln's inclusive spirit was turned away by denominational divisions." He did not like to watch the sectarian rivalries between Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians and the like.

Other books he was interested in and studied:

by C.-F. Volney

This was a work translated by Thomas Jefferson and stated that Morality was the true measure of faith. Volney advocated the overthrow of the twin medieval tyrannies of state and church. This book was written during the French Revolution.

Lincoln also read Paine:





"Lincoln read Paine's dismissal of the Bible which called it a book of lies"



Lincoln developed an affinity to Robert Burns and this increased Lincoln's skepticism. White indicated that Burns was a refugee of Scottish Calvinism and he had cried out against the Presbyterian's teachings of Predestination.

White also said that whatever Lincoln read ended up in his writing so it is obvious that these folks which he read influenced him tremendously as it related to his religious beliefs.

In fact, some folks close to Lincoln remember his reading a paper attacking divinity in the spirit of Volney and Paine. Hill, his friend, grabbed it and threw it into the fire obviously trying to save his friend from ostracism.

Lincoln seemed to be leaning towards those authors who challenged traditional Christian teachings so he was leaving behind the Baptist teachings of his parents according to White.

Lincoln became the postmaster and still had time to do other things including becoming a surveyor which he knew nothing about.

This was an interesting blog on Lincoln and his love of the figure of speech: the antithesis. There are actually four parts to this. Found all four at this site (2, 3 and 4 at bottom of essay):

http://climateprogress.org/2009/02/16/ab...

The book that he referenced was mentioned by White in Chapter Four:

English Grammar in Familiar Lectures by Samuel Kirkham

Lincoln walked six miles to get a copy.

Other favorites:

Henry IV, Parts One and Two

Hamlet

Exactly..he ruminated about this for awhile..a planner. It does remind me of Abe in some respects.

Bentley wrote: "I think he knew that he needed a wife and pronto.

Yes, necessity was a large part of it..but I think paying the debts made him feel that he had settled things on a number of fronts.

Remember ..."

yes, that's right. Thomas also took a year to prepare, and think about what he was going to do.

I think he knew that he needed a wife and pronto.

Yes, necessity was a large part of it..but I think paying the debts made him feel that he had settled things on a number of fronts.

Remember Sarah had married somebody else and not him; the man had died and had left her with children and debts. Maybe he thought that he would have done better by her in the long run. He must have been keeping tabs on her from afar; because how would he know of her circumstances. Most folks move on nowadays and do not keep tabs on their former attachments or their whereabouts (unless he was still carrying somewhat of a torch after all of this time) and remember communication and travel were difficult.

I think he saw a marriage of necessity of course; but also of winning the gal at the end (salvaging his pride in some respects) but this is all conjecture but fun to talk about.

Bentley wrote: "I wonder in a way after thinking about it whether Thomas was showing the same pride (as Lincoln, his son, often did)...when he went back to ask Sarah to marry him (after his first wife died). He also paid her debts to seal the deal. It would then appear to his old compatriots that he indeed had done better and was able now to pay his bills or that of his future spouse."

You don't think he did it because of necessity? I thought that he saw his young son and didn't want him to go through what he went through when he lost one of his parents at a young age.

It was..can you imagine that going on today...Uproar. I think they did this also to stay warm (which would make sense) - no forced hot air or central heating then. Plus furniture was not that readily available unless they made it themselves.

Bentley wrote: "When Abe first worked for Denton he was making only $15.00 a month and sleeping on a shared cot in the back room of the store!"

I got the impression that that sort of thing was common back then. I'm always reading about two people sharing the same bed just because there just weren't enough beds available. It truly was a different time back then.

Joe wrote: "Bentley wrote: "What I am indicating is that the reason they left was because of the ejectment suit not the church; although who knows they may have also been looking for a group of like minded chu..."

The Baptist church they belonged to before Abe was born was the church that was blown apart by dissension. They may have gone to another after that; but they left because of the ejectment suit. When looking over the White text...he did not mention the ejectment suit until later when talking about the Sparrows and how both Thomas Lincoln and the Sparrows had to both leave because of these same circumstances.

I wonder in a way after thinking about it whether Thomas was showing the same pride (as Lincoln, his son, often did)...when he went back to ask Sarah to marry him (after his first wife died). He also paid her debts to seal the deal. It would then appear to his old compatriots that he indeed had done better and was able now to pay his bills or that of his future spouse.

I think Lincoln had more of his father's wherewithal than he would ever want to admit. Too bad about the gulf over the books and education..maybe Abe's book learning and school made Thomas feel even more inferior to his son and he did not want Lincoln to become uppity. You never know. He may have felt he was losing his son to books and he at his advanced age (life had passed him by) could not do anything about it.

Bentley wrote: "Another reason Lincoln would have gravitated to Rutledge was because he owned a small library of books. This also would have been very attractive to Lincoln."

Good point.

Joe wrote: "While reading a bit more into Lincoln's first attempt at public office from Burlingame's Abraham Lincoln A Life, I learned that James Rutledge, an owner of an inn in New Salem where..."


I don't know..it could be that they were playing with him as a diversion but for some reason...I think he was helped by all of them including Rutledge and Allen (after researching further). White indicates that this experience was more on the positive side (at least in this chapter he does). Another reason Lincoln would have gravitated to Rutledge was because he owned a small library of books. This also would have been very attractive to Lincoln.

Bentley wrote: "What I am indicating is that the reason they left was because of the ejectment suit not the church; although who knows they may have also been looking for a group of like minded churchgoers in a new location that they could be friends and a community with. Maybe they missed the church that they had belonged to before Abe was born or they attended some other church in the meantime before their move to Indiana."

Yes, I'm familiar with the time your talking about, but when Thomas decided to change churches, White mentioned that the new church was only 3 miles away, so I don't think they needed to move to change churches. I got the impression that when they did eventually decide to move, they did so because of the ejectment suit, like you said. But, I separated the two incidents as being not related to each other because they happened at different times.

But I'll read it again later tonight to verify. Maybe I overlooked something.

Joe wrote: "In March of 1832, Lincoln, for the first time, tries to enter public office by announcing in the Sangamo Journal his wishes to be a candidate for the state legislature. The complete text of his ann..."

Yes, I was amazed at how well he did in his own district...277 out of 300 votes....that made him feel quite proud as it should have.

I think constantly he worried about being worthy and had these feelings of low self esteem...probably because of his upbringing and of his father's standing. He was worthy but of course he had to prove it to himself too. I think Rutledge and Allen helped him out tremendously. White also stated in this chapter that Lincoln's curiosity and love of reading and learning enlarged the gulf between father and son which was already there to begin with.

When Abe first worked for Denton he was making only $15.00 a month and sleeping on a shared cot in the back room of the store! He was quite ingenious and made $40.00 for his boat excursion; $125.00 for his military service.

On the religious issue, White states that Lincoln did not have much use for the Camp Meetings that took place in New Salem and they did not count Lincoln in attendance; because Lincoln felt that these meetings were too emotional.

As he got better known he actually stayed and lived in a number of different places in New Salem as a boarder in exchange for odd jobs, etc.

Abraham Lincoln and the Black Hawk War;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Lin...

The New Salem Debating Society: (this is where Lincoln started to hone his debating skills on a variety of tough subjects including slavery, etc.)

http://www.lib.niu.edu/1998/ihy980234.ht...

This is a pretty interesting book starting on page 18 which discusses the New Salem debating Society.

One other interesting tidbit in this book was how Lincoln loved Clay just like his father did and Lincoln's early attitudes on what to do with slaves and slavery is exactly that of Clays.

http://books.google.com/books?id=hY3-1X5...


Stephen B. Oates

Lincoln's First Political Announcement:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/...

Yes, I read that about the church itself; but what I was focusing on was their ejectment suit which forced them to leave Kentucky..(same for the Sparrows).

Thomas may have done all that you say; but he would just have joined another church as he did later in Indiana. Remember he had gotten some letter to show the new Baptist church that he had been a member in good standing and/or a church going man so all was not bleak in terms of how he left his church or they left him. Granted Thomas must have spoken about the church and the congregation's anguish over these issues. We also do not know for sure what influenced young Abe in terms of that time period which regarding that particular church was before Abe was born. But it could have played a role.

Also do not dispute that in Kentucky there may have been disputes regarding slavery..I think in a previous post somewhere I noted that in agreement.

What I am indicating is that the reason they left was because of the ejectment suit not the church; although who knows they may have also been looking for a group of like minded churchgoers in a new location that they could be friends and a community with. Maybe they missed the church that they had belonged to before Abe was born or they attended some other church in the meantime before their move to Indiana.

The church may have been a contributing factor in terms of Thomas's view on slavery which he could have passed on to his son later on in life; but the ejectment suit sealed the move.

I agree the above is quite possible too; as are the other hypotheses (smile).

Bentley wrote: "Don't you think it was the ejectment suit which made the decision for them. "

On page 18, White explains that the Lincoln family church broke up because of disagreements about slavery just before Abe was born. The point being, there was allot of slavery tensions, and probably quite prevalent away from church, and Thomas chose sides for his family. That also points out quite well that Abe grew up in an area embedded with enormous slavery tensions. Given the environment and his father's opinions of them, Thomas and the environment he lived in had a lot to do with Abe's viewpoint on slavery.

About your second paragraph, yes, that's quite possible.

I love all of the little tidbits that White throws in as he tells his story:

For example - Illinois was settled from South to North.

What was most interesting and hard to fathom now; but in 1831 - the population of Chicago was 60!!!

Folks liked to settle along the rivers (easy access to water and timber) and Chicago was settled by the mouth of the Chicago River on the banks of Lake Michigan.

Nobody at the time thought they could cultivate below the sea of grass (the Prairie grasses); but rich soil lay beneath.

When Lincoln embarked on his New Salem experience he was also leaving behind farming which had been the occupation of his forebears.

It looks like Abe owned property in New Salem:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/...

and this indicates that there is more to be discovered:


http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/...

AL on line:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/...

For those of you interested in tracking Lincoln:

Don Davenport

Ralph Gary

Other books about this area and time period:

Robert Mazrim

Lincoln's New Salem by Benjamin P. Thomas

The Shadows Rise Abraham Lincoln and the Ann Rutledge Legend by John Walsh

This is what the New Salem state historic site said about Lincoln's stay here:

Lincoln At New Salem

"Lincoln's New Salem State Historic Site, about 2 miles South of Petersburg and about 20 miles Northwest of Springfield, is a reconstruction of the village where Abraham Lincoln spent his early adulthood.

The six years Lincoln spent in New Salem formed a turning point in his career.

Although he never owned a home here, Lincoln was engaged in a variety of activities while he was at New Salem.

He clerked in a store, split rails, enlisted in the Black Hawk War, served as postmaster and deputy surveyor, failed in business, and was elected to the Illinois General Assembly in 1834 and 1836 after an unsuccessful try in 1832. "

Historic records are now disputing the above. See message 38.

Joe wrote: "But I don't think we can discount Thomas Lincoln's viewpoints on slavery, and how his family migrated towards antislavery viewpoints. Before Abe was born, the church in their area split-up mainly b..."

Don't you think it was the ejectment suit which made the decision for them.

At the beginning of chapter four, it seems to me that because of his father and his father's standing in Abe's eyes...he had somewhat of an inferiority complex which he worked hard to overcome..he wanted to be viewed by others as being worthy. To even feel that way in the first place, you would have had to think that you weren't. White also mentions that he shows outward respect for his father and step mother visiting them (they had moved again) when he came back from his second trip to New Orleans). So they were on speaking and on visiting terms and not totally estranged.

A New Salem Virtual Tour:

http://www.lincolnsnewsalem.com/

White said that it was during this period that it was here that Lincoln was finally able to separate from his father. Obviously a goal that Lincoln had for a very long time.

It was also interesting that the New Salem site indicated that Denton's store only lasted about a year and then he was off:

"Offutt first employed Abraham Lincoln in the spring of 1831 to take his goods by flatboat from Springfield to New Orleans. Due to a delay in crossing the milldam, Offutt and Lincoln first visited New Salem. On July 8, 1831, Offutt was licensed to retail at New Salem. It was here that Lincoln received his first exposure to the business of merchandising. Within a year, Offutt's enterprise had failed. He left New Salem for Kentucky to help his brother raise horses."

It did not seem that a lot of these folks stayed put much.

Bryan wrote: "Hi Bentley:

It was fun. It was not crowded and the weather was good. I will try to post pictures soon. It was your typical upper-middle class house with all the Victorian trimmings. I also wal..."

That sounds like a great trip..too bad you did not have time to go through the Musuem and library. Would love to see the photos..I also had no inclination that Mary had migraines and a separate bedroom (that might have been the practice in those days) - although Eleanor and FDR certainly had theirs.

Thanks for posting the book on Mary; I had wondered how the trip went.

Bryan wrote: "Hi Bentley:

It was fun. It was not crowded and the weather was good. I will try to post pictures soon. It was your typical upper-middle class house with all the Victorian trimmings. I also wal..."

That's great to hear you had a good time, Bryan. I'd be curious to see your pictures as well.

Hi Bentley:

It was fun. It was not crowded and the weather was good. I will try to post pictures soon. It was your typical upper-middle class house with all the Victorian trimmings. I also walked around the 4 blocks the NPS has restored, so you get an idea of how the neighborhood felt.

Mary had her own bedroom to dress in and it was a place to go when she had her migraines. (I didn't know she suffered from them.)

I did not have time to go through the Lincoln Museum and Library (except the large gift shop), but that will be for another visit.

So, I'm pleased to be reading the Linclon bio when I did this.

I picked up the book:
by Jean H. Baker

Bryan,

How was Lincoln's home; you said that you were visiting Springfield? (message 27)

Bentley

Bryan wrote: "FYI Lincoln fans, I'll be heading over to Springfield next week to visit his home. Looking forward to it."

Yes, I also would like to see your pictures as well. Keep us posted.

I think White was being kind to Thomas But we can be kind too; but somebody trying to get away as much as Lincoln was does speak volumes without White saying anything.

I am sure that Thomas had a difficult time and we should be sympathetic. And nobody has the whole story except for Lincoln and his father. You are right Joe; but some of us have our suspicions (grin).

Thanks for your post, Vince. I'll see if I can respond to some of it.

As far as Thomas Lincoln is concerned, I think we are all missing White's point if we form opinions of anything more than "their relationship was strained", or that "we were not dissuaded." White's point was two fold. He suggests that history was possibly too harsh toward Thomas, and that we don't have the whole story. We don't have the whole story... we don't have 1/4 of it, and to recognize that, I think, was what White wanted to convey to us on pages 13 and 14.

Terrific..see if you can learn how to post some pics...it is supposed to be easy.

Have a great time. You will have to do a write-up for us.

Would love to see what his home looks like...there is a way to post digital images.

FYI Lincoln fans, I'll be heading over to Springfield next week to visit his home. Looking forward to it.

All good points Vince. I tend to agree that as far as Lincoln's father was concerned..Lincoln was oppositional.

Hi folks

Well I am still about ten days behind so get to make observations/ comments after I have the benefit of seeing yours.
Just a thought about Thomas is that from what I have read andlearned outside this book I have to agree with the notion that Lincoln was distancing himself from his father. I have a memory that later on in the story of Lincoln this will be reinforced but don't want to be a spoiler and maybe my memory is wrong or White will presnet it differently.

These three chapters however present an opportunity to note things about the developing American frontier as well as developemtns specific to Lincoln.


Think of the sequense of Lincoln's sucess in New Salem. He arrives - a big strong young man in 1831 - just two years after the founding of New Salem so the competition for attention was more limited and probably the total population was very small - was there a note thta Chicago had less than 100 people in this time frame? - and in 1832 when he first ran for office the town was only three years old so he interest in running - his very existence was not too diluted with lots of people. - And these were probably all adventurous people that came here.

Also the similarity here of his Whig party wanting to form a governement to help and empower the people links this in a way to our Roosevelt book and especailly the efforts being put forth by Eleanor on behalf of FDR - just a side note - sorry.

And of course we see Stephen Douglas being similar to Lincoln in that he came out to Illinois on his own to build his own success. And his stature must have been something of a disadvantage - tall men seem to usulaly get reconition and the first time Lincoln went to the legislatture he was one of nine men all over six foot tall.

Looking at Lincoln's strong activities in teh Whig party it almost seems he oculd be using the moral part of it (doing good for others) and the comraderie - campaigning for himself and others - as his sort of substitute for the social aspects that church must have filled for many people at the time. Just an observation of mine.

I sort of have to agree that the exposure of Lincoln to the anti-slavery views of his father would have had some influence but I do think that he indpendently build his anti slavery posture - He wanted to be able to work to achieve things and must have had tremendous difficulty seeing slaves work and get only what their owners wanted to let them have.

Another comment about that society and the attitudes from these chapters is that when New Salem died - granted at a young age - it seems folks just moved on to build something new (personal thought - maybe that shoudl have happened in New Orleans instrad of rebuilding a city below sea level)

A little note about Van Buren's subtreasury system - the economic crissi of 1837 was not able to be fought by the government due to not having a national bank I think and Van Buren's having been Andrew Jackson's guy could not easily try now to reestablish the bank I think.

Joe wrote: "Good Morning Bentley,

The objective of my last post was not to try to dissuade you of your opinions. I wanted to emphasise White's assertion that history has perhaps given Thomas Lincoln a bad rap..."

No you did not dissuade me at all. I think that relationships with the same gender parent are always complex.

Lincoln won re-election in 1836 easily. He "received the highest number of votes of the seventeen candidates..." and also because of his "growing standing among his colleagues," "the Whigs elected him their floor leader." During this session of the legislature Lincoln helped move the capital of Illinois to Springfield, proudly protested against a resolution condemning abolitionism, and met his future rival, Stephen Douglas. Lincoln also won a third term in the legislature in 1838.

Lincoln moved to Springfield in 1837 and immediately met Joshua Speed, who would develop into one of his closest friends. He also received his law license and had the good fortune to be asked to join, as a junior partner, one of the most respected lawyers in Springfield, that of John Todd Stuart. Lincoln eventually was on horseback, travelling all over the Eighth Judicial Circuit in support of his clients.

Late in 1839 and in 1840, Lincoln took a leading role in organizing the Whigs in Illinois behind their Presidential candidate, William Henry Harrison. He spoke at Whig rallies, debated Steven Douglas among other Democrats, and tried his best to win over votes all over the state. His campaigning essentially brought him to the forefront of the Whig Party in Illinois.

Good Morning Bentley,

The objective of my last post was not to try to dissuade you of your opinions. I wanted to emphasise White's assertion that history has perhaps given Thomas Lincoln a bad rap. Also, I think White wants to point out that whoever think's they can make any conclusions, history must concede that no one will ever know for sure how Lincoln felt. Surely, their relationship was strained, but we can only surmise that, "the truth... is much more complex."

But, enough of that...

Joe..I agree that there are a lot of opinions and opining about Thomas. I still think based upon Lincoln's own actions...he was not enamored with him and maybe was even embarrassed. But I will just reserve judgement until I have read this book and maybe some others.

You have certainly done your homework and have certainly a lot of citations to back up your assessment. Well done.

More about Thomas Lincoln...

I thought White was trying to correct or dampen the harsh first impressions people have gotten of him through his son. "Part of this portrait comes from a son who would say his father 'grew up literally without education,' the very value Abraham Lincoln would come to prize the most." pg 13

It's obvious that Thomas and Abraham did not see eye to eye, but that only accentuates their differing viewpoints on how to succeed. One thought that getting his strong son to help split wood for money to buy more land was the best way, and the other was to educate one's self. I'm sure that just about everyone else in the frontier west was doing the same thing as Thomas. Abe was the odd-ball here, sitting reading books all the time. Not that this takes anything away from how Abraham thought of his father. Their relationship was strained, but Abe, I'm sure, better understood his father when he matured himself.

As far as Thomas is concerned, "the filter should be removed in order to color in a more accurate picture. ...Although he lacked formal education, this was not unusual on the early American frontier. He served in the local militia, on juries, and became an active member of the Baptist Church." pg 13.

"For a long time in American presidential history, the demeaning of Thomas Lincoln became a means to set up a contrast with the accomplishments of his supposedly self made son. The truth, as always, is much more complex." pg 14

Yes, Joe and I think the rhetoric and the philosophy he was exposed to did stick with Lincoln. But I think that Lincoln wanted to thwart his father's perceived influence and I think would probably have not credited his father for his own antislavery leanings or for much of anything for that matter.

If one does not like a parent, you obviously do not want anyone to think that you learned or were influenced by them. I think that is the point that I was making; not that he wasn't influenced by him.

And further I agree with you and I think a lot of things were a big influence on Abe including Thomas Lincoln's viewpoints on slavery..you and Bryan are certainly correct (MHO).

I guess I do not see Lincoln as being a completely well balanced individual; but in most cases our greatest achievers have all had family and other difficulties to overcome and their lives were not easy.

But I don't think we can discount Thomas Lincoln's viewpoints on slavery, and how his family migrated towards antislavery viewpoints. Before Abe was born, the church in their area split-up mainly because of the slavery issue. Thomas made a decision for his family to side with the antislavery faction. Thomas placed his family within antislavery surroundings.

I do not think that Lincoln wanted to believe that he was influenced by his father in much of anything..although this is just MHO. Of course, any parent can influence some...good or bad, I suppose. But my feeling was that Lincoln was ambitious for himself and saw his father as being the antithesis of everything he stood for (ambitionless) Maybe that is why he always threw his lot in with his deceased mother as being the person who had been most influential in his life. Even a bad father has influence on the son's psyche if nothing else. I think Lincoln's falling out with his father over time shows as much about Lincoln as it does about the father.