Well, I think it's incredibly strange myself Pontalba. But...I'm not Christian so I always figured I had to try to imagine what it must be like to have that kind of peer pressure on oneself. The idea of some outside sense of concern is something that I have rejected...you know, being afraid of what people might think of oneself. An unhealthy peer pressure for the sake of living up to an ideal or expectation is not something that works on me in a superficial way. You know, dress a certain way, live a certain way, drive such and such a car etc etc...that gene was missing in me since childhood. Confusing love and ethics with superficial behaviour is not something I can agree with and don't understand how Tracy or Hepburn were so wrapped up in that kind of interpreation of religion, or society.

I think it's kind of sweet that the studios used to look after their stars...yet that also implies a sort of potential cover up doesn't it?

Asmuch as I tried to imiagine with my scenario above of how it could come to pass that Hepburn and Tracy would live the way they did...I am totally just stretching myself.

I really don't get it. I really don't know what would compel anyone, with social pressures and the idea of "reputations" and caring "what the Jones think"...

Those kinds of religious and social pressures on customs, on appearances, rather than on acting in a out or upfront way is mysterious to me.

I have so many friends who came out of the closet...or were never in the closet...and faced family and employers with their bravery to be out and gay...this kind of hiding just gets to me the more I think about it.


Just today...on Oprah, Portia, Ellen's wife, was talking about how she was in the closet in U.S. as an actor and was afraid that if anyone knew she was a lesbian her career woudld be ruined. And then yet...within a couple years of living in U.S. She even married a director, male, to get a green card. Then came out.

So when I think of all the kinds of people who talk about their lives and try to in a clear and firm manner tell their stories, whether they have a terrible childhood, or a disease or are gay...or anything potentially that they could be banned for or censored or experience prejudice...

it's so different than what Tracy and Hepburn did. Look at Ingrid Bergman...who was shunned in many ways because she had an affair.

Our society now has tried so hard to represent the people who are not afraid.

I was watching "Sex Rehab" with Dr. Drew on MTV last night...and it's mazing how much "open book" is part of our culture now. The celebrities sharingt their childhoods and having breakdowns and therapy on camera is quite stunning...and how many people they are helping by doing this program is amazing. I mean the things these celebrities and famous addicts were sharing was mind-blowing.

Oh Pontalba, I dated an alcholic...it was well...it was a nightmare. I've seen what the abuse can do to the body and mind of the drinker...and I just can't imagine how Spencer Tracy didn't get actual medical help...I can imagine the rages, the vomiting, the lies. (I mean long term addicition...not a lively drunk or college drunk...a real hardcore case) That is what is hard to imagine Hepburn living with...as Tracy sounds like the very stereotypical image of the bad drunk.

We would imagine that anyone today involved with such an alchoholic would insist on rehab, ya know?

Beej wrote: "Candy, some great points made there! Also, Tracy and Hepburn had studios protecting them. I think that the studios protected their stars back then and today's celebrities do not have that buffer. I..."

Candy, Beej, that's exactly what I meant by the old studio system. They protected their stars, but the price was horrendous.

Candy,
What you say about the co-dependency of Hepburn could easily explain a large percentage of the situation. Although, I am compelled to add that having, myself, been married at one low point in my life to an alcoholic, I've avoided any re-occurrence in my life like the Plague. I would have kind of expected the same reaction from Hepburn, I do understand that is probably not fair or valid.

As far as Tracy being Catholic, the hypocrisy of that stance has always been a particular thorn in my side. IOW, it was deemed acceptable for him to have a long standing extra marital affair, being unfaithful over a long period of years, but not make a clean break and marry the woman he ostensibly loved? It blows my mind totally. It reeks to high Heaven.

Candy, some great points made there! Also, Tracy and Hepburn had studios protecting them. I think that the studios protected their stars back then and today's celebrities do not have that buffer. I might be wrong, tho.

Hi Pontalba,

I have been thinkign about what you've said in your last comment here about Hepburn. I always kind of thought of her...as likeing the role in TS because it was close to how she may have been in her younger days. She came from an over-acheiver family, a brother who killed himself...and although I don't know ton about her life...I have ind of put together an impression,if you will. My understanding from a paper I read once about Spencer Tracy was that the people loved him so so much, and the media just turned the other way. He was so loved they just didn't write about his personal life in many of the tabloids.

I believe it would be fair to guess that since Spencer was an alchoholic, and Hepburn had family trama that hints at addiction and abuse (the brothers suicide) the situation is possible that she was a classic co-dependent. She was a care-giver to Tracy as much as a lover.

I also...just intuitively feel that she believed it was healing for her to love Tracy and let go of her ego in some way. If she was anything like her character in TPS....she may have at least learned that love and happiness are rooted in compassion?

I'm really just throwing this out there as an armchair doc ha ah!!!

It does seem weird that such a persona would "take back seat" toa marriage (Tracy was Catholic...no divorce for him) and take a back seat to addiction. But...I wonder...fif we analyse it froma spiritual perspective...maybe the relationship was healing for her?

And isn't it weird how now...the media will print anything about a star? They would all be scanadlaized and dragged about liek Lindsay lohan and Britney Spears...it's a situation with Hepburn every bit as flamboyant as Spears life style. It's bizarre how people protected Tracy and Hepburn looking back...

omg...of course as soon as I get excited about seeing you all here at Goodreads..."real life" goes mad...

Here is why I can't stay here long today...we have to have this finished by 8 a.m. tomorrow morning and we only started yesterday afternoon...about five more hours of painting left to do...then...calmmm

ha! I will properly read and respond to posts here Saturday if I haven't passed out from moonlighting shift...

here:

http://staggland.blogspot.com

Hi and thanks for the invite to join the group. I'm way overextended but I'll try to participate when I can. (I'm trying to figure how to condense my testimony into the allotment of TWO minutes for an 11/9 town hall meeting regarding Maryland state budget cuts & waiting lists for people with disabilities.)

Hey,

Great to be here. Hope to contribute more as time goes on. As Candy and Lee know I just started a Group "History, Actual, Fictional and Legendary" at http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/2634...

If you have any interest in History in all it's many manifestations, you might like this group. I'd love to have any of you as members. We do books, movies, mini-series, and speculations. To paraphrase Hillary, we haven't quite found our voice, yet but we will.

Candy, thanks. :)
I wonder if part of the problem I have with Hepburn is knowledge of her private life. I sometimes think the old studio system of keeping the stars lives quiet was somehow more beneficial for the public at any rate. It is not that I object to her personal life with Spencer Tracy, not a bit. I do however have to at least raise an eyebrow at the fact she played strong, independent women and still cow-towed to that very same studio system that kept their affair quiet, and the fact that she was so willing to take a second place in a man's life.

It's hard for me to connect the two impressions, and she comes off somehow as hypocritical, although I don't truly consider her a hypocrite.

I know, clear as mud. :)

I think Hepburn is someone you either like or dislike. I can understand how she might be irritating. she is very very different than actors we see in contemporary films...although I am not sure why. I think there is something irritating about her. I don't know if I can explain it...and also even contradictorily...I kind of accept it and can enjoy the movies she's in despite that aspect of her. I'm not sure why and I'm not sure I would have ever articulated the thought before reading your comment here, Pontalba.

Hey Pontalba...great to see you!

I believe a couple of directors have used the challenging qualities of hepburn to great effect in some movies. Most notably The Philadelphia Story and Bringing Up Baby. In both movies her character is incredibly hyper, flamboyant, selfish (at times) spoiled, reckless, impulsive, funny, dangerous...strong willed, bossy...in Bringing Up Baby she represents men's worst fears...in fact, I think that movie could be considered a comedy/horror...heh heh...

Hey y'all! Thanks for the invite Candy. :)
I have seen The Philadelphia Story ages and ages ago, can't remember beyond the obvious details. Excellent of course. Even though, may I commit heresy and say Katharine Hepburn irritates me? /ducking and running fast/ :)

Hey Candy! Good to see you too... no worries about last night, i went to bed early for once!!!!
Thanks for this invite btw!

Hiya! Thanks for the invite, Candy! Glad to be here!

Hey Suzanne. It is so unbelieably awesome to see you here. Sorry I didn't call last night...had a very tiring day. Fell asleep after this movie.

Hello all.... the Philadelphia story is one of my favourite plays and movies... I have watched it so many times!!! I even like High Society, the musical version of the Philadelphia story.... but I digress...

btw Andy, I really quite liked the Lincoln lawyer... I read it one day last month... let me know what you think,

have a great day!
Suzanne

Hey so great to see familiar faces here. I really missed everyone! And great to see some new faces.

Like Lee I'm *waving wildly*

:)

Capitu and Beej, have either of you seen The Philadelephia Story before? It's really a special movie and has a lot to offer for inspiration about life and love and people. We watched it last night and although I have seen it many times...Iwas so impressed by the insight to characters and some of the secrets to having a good life. If you don't have time to track down the movie now...please consider tracking it down soon. I promise it will reveal so many important things about love and having a good life it will certainly lift your spirits. In fact...I believe it canhelp one have a better life...it's in many ways a koan disguised as a comedy!

I'd almost say...just go and rent it and set aside an hour and a half...it will be time well spent! And guess what? It's on YouTube!!! here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sejs4bC7p...

Hi everyone. So glad to be invited. It is great to find a place to chat again. I am getting a bit overwhelmed with life around here, so I am not going to commit to watching all the movies or reading the books, but you can count on me listening in anyway.

Yeah!!

Hi Stagg. I would like to add you to my blog list. Is that ok? You'll be in good company; your wife is there :)

Welcome to Goodreads Stagg! It's very addictive.

Hi everybody. Been busy adding books to my library.

We missed you, too! And I missed Candy like crazy.

Hi Lee! And Wild and Candy, too!
Awww, I missed everybody!

Love the name of this group, I understood what it meant immediately due to my BA in art history haha

Thanks for inviting me Candy! Hi Andy! *waving madly*

Hi Beej! I know it's kind of fast, but I'm in a pop culture class right now, it's only seven weeks so everything is squeeeezed in.

Ohhhh! I don't have time to watch a movie right now but I will try to make time in the future! (Thanks for the invite, Candy. And Hi, Andy!)

Okay...I better track down these movies! I'm looking forward to hearingwhat you think of them.

Whoa! Hey cool group!
Thanks for setting this up!

I'll watch Chinatown soon, gotta get it from the library.

Watched Philadelphia Story last night. Upcoming are Chinatown and Duplicity and a Michael Connelly novel: the Lincoln Lawyer.

It's a fast-paced course, only seven weeks!