Are graces = monsters?

Graceling is set in the seven kingdoms. I got the impression that that was all there was to the world. Then Fire is set just over a mountain range.

Things are very different in King Raffin's kingdom than where Po is prince, so maybe what Katsa calls graces, Fire calls monsters? (And Fire doesn't know about the people who are good swimmers, cooks or whatever.)

I liked both books very much, but I read Graceling first and it blew my socks off.

I enjoyed Fire more than Graceling, but I love them both for the same and yet different reasons. I felt that Cashore grew as a writer and it shows in Fire.

No guesses as to what will happen in Bitterblue, perhaps the world's of Fire and Katsa and Bitterblue will collide for once now that we know about them both.

I enjoyed Graceling more so than Fire (but I believe that's because I absolutely love the idea of people being Graced). I think that when I started Fire, my expectations got in the way. I wanted it to be more like Graceling. I will try reading Fire again sometime in the future and try to enjoy it for the book that it is.

What do you think will happen to Bitterblue?

Did you guys enjoy Fire or Graceling more?

I finished reading FIRE and was actually not disappointed at all. I was hesitant, especially at its opening because the idea of brightly colored "monsters" seemed like it would be a little harder to buy into.

But I loved Fire. I liked that she wasn't as confident in her abilities as Katsa (how many teenage girls can really be as confident as Katsa?). I liked that we got to watch her grow in her abilities and grow comfortable with herself. And of course I liked that (similar to some themes in GRACELING, Fire faces tough choices that test her emotional and physical strength. She is forced to think about the morality of her actions and the actions of others, to really examine the good and the evil in the world around her and determine her part in all of it. And when she finds herself in trouble, she doesn't wait for her love interest or anyone else to come save her. She saves herself.

I also thought it was fun to see completely different characters and a different world rather than see Katsa and Po face new bad guys (I love them, but I don't want to read another fantasy series that goes downhill because the author is reaching for new conflicts). I'm definitely looking forward to BITTERBLUE.

I completely agree, Jessica! I found the Gracelings to be more interesting - maybe because they all had different gifts, so they were unique? I don't know.

I liked Fire, in that page-turning, I can't put it down kind of way. But by the middle, I got that creepy, haven't I read this before feeling... like Fire was just Graceling with a different female protagonist. Don't shoot me, Cashore fans - but I was expecting a little more originality.

The best part about it was her subplot of how a previous villain from Graceling came to be - I won't give away too much more in case you haven't read it.

I just got done reading Fire yesterday. I have to admit, after reading Graceling, Fire seemed a bit of a let down. The one thing I loved about Fire though was getting to see where Leck came from. That was always such a mystery in Graceling. I think one reason I didn't like Fire as much as I loved Graceling is because, even though both characters were very unsure of themselves, at least Katsa was confident in her abilities. Fire still had to grow into hers and learn to use it throughout the book.

All in all, Fire was a good read, but I'm looking forward to reading Bitterblue when it comes out. For some reason, I just love the Gracelings better than the monsters (especially since Fire is the last human monster).

I've been reading the posts on this forum and I have to agree that Cashore is not anti-marriage or anti-children. Towards the end of Fire, I get the feeling that Fire and Brigan are going to eventually marry and even though Fire cannot have children anymore, I can understand the reasoning behind this decision. It's a huge gamble to bring another human monster into the world; you could end up with another Fire, true, but you could also end up with another Cansrel. I also got the impression that Fire and Brigan would be caring for as many children as are around them (Clara's baby, Mila's baby, and however many children the rest of their family and friends have).

I have noticed that several Fire readers had issues with the out-of-wedlock-children, but given the imaginary time frame and setting, I thought it to be "historically" accurate. Look at royal families throughout history and you will find several children that were born out of wedlock. Royal courts were a sess pool and it wasn't uncommon for them to have multiple children with individuals other than their spouse. King Henry the VIII had three children out of wedlock, or maybe just two, but still, that was not uncommon so it didn't bother me that Cashore's royal family was much the same.

While I noted the frequent mentioning of PMS, I would have questioned it's ommission. Knowing that monsters were attracted to the smell of monster blood, I would have asked what Fire was going to do about that on her 3 week journey to king's city had that been left out. I would have wondered how she could safely travel back after she was kidnapped, etc. PMS is a part of life, that all of us women have to think about and more so for Fire given what she is so it really didn't bother me.

::spoilers possible::

I read Fire but not Graceling. I'm still undecided about reading more of Cashore's books. I liked the actual character of Fire herself, and I gave the book 3 stars for being a fun (though dark) adventure story. I had a few issues with the book, such as Cashore's moralizing about out-of-wedlock children, and the constant mentioning of PMS and menstruation. I don't know, but the whole PMS thing seemed oddly out of place in a fantasy novel. Though I suppose it was kind of an original approach.

Thanks, Heather and Michael, and you guys hit it on the head (not fatally, though, just a good-naturedly knock:); I should've added my other one cent about what I thought about her portrayal of marriage and child-bearing as well.

I agree that Cashore isn't so much anti-marriage or anti-children so much as she is pro-"think-about-it-first-and-don't-be-a-sheep." Fire and Katsa, despite being young, really think about how their situations will affect any children they have, and I think that's all Cashore is trying to illustrate, the importance of making thoughtful, informed decisions about having children, or getting married. Many girls today seem to think that it's perfectly okay to become pregnant at a young age, and marry immediately, rather than think about how their lives will be affected, or how it will affect the lives of their children. Most aren't prepared for it, and most end up shouldering all of the responsibility of raising their children alone. It can be hard on both mother and child.

And that's my additional one cent.

I agree with Patrick as well and after reading Fire, I don't think that Cashore is anti-marriage or anti-children. I got the impression that Fire was going to marry Brigan as she asks if people will be able to accept her as queen in her last scene with him which I felt implied that she was going to marry him.

As for Fire arranging it so that she couldn't carry children, well, I understood her choice for the same reason I understood Katsa's, in fact, I sympathized with Fire's choice more. Katsa didn't want children because her child was bound to be graced and she didn't want that life for her child just as Fire's child was bound to be a monster. But unlike whatever child Katsa might have had, Fire would have no way to know if her child would be good or bad regardless of how she raised it. I can understand not wanting to take that kind of risk for herself, her child or anyone else.

I like the fact that Cashore explores the thought process behind a woman's decision to have a child. I think so many women have children because they think that that is what women are supposed to do and are supposed to want. They are in love with the idea of dressing something up, smelling that baby smell, etc but I often wonder if they take in to consideration what it would be like to actually raise a child, not just have a baby. I don't have children, but I'm sure its not the fairytale it is often portrayed as being and I'm glad that Cashore's characters don't just rush off into the perverbial sunset.

I agree with Patrick but I don't believe Cashore has anything against marriage and pregnancy. I believe she is using these two avenues to help readers empathize with her characters because these issues are very important to most people. I find it very interesting her main characters in each book (Katsa and Fire) have powerful abilities but at the same time have very simple human worries about marriage and pregnancy.

It's not that her views on marriage and children are "weird," it's that you find them different from your own. Everyone is entitled to their own views, even writers (despite the fact that they're writing for the greater majorities). Reading isn't about finding things that you will like 100%, it's about enjoying new experiences, broadening your horizons, and lessening the t.v.-induced rotting of the brain! :)

Nah, t.v.'s not so bad, but yep, you're not always going to be comfortable with how writers portray certain things. You just have to learn to be more open-minded (not more accepting, just less intolerant of what you consider "weird" and different).

True. Kristin Cashore does have some kind of issue on marriage and pregnancy.

However, I think I like Fire more than Graceling. The story was more complex, the writing was better, and like Graceling, I loved the characters. And the prologue was great too--effectively haunting.

I agree.....I could understand somewhat Katsa's viewpoint of marriage in Graceling but not Fire. It was like this book just wanted to push all the edgy boundaries more so than the plot.

I just finished Fire. Mixed feelings. Agree with Alaa on #4. Cashore has something against marriage and children for sure!

My thoughts went exactly in this order:
1. I like graceling, although I wish the writer had avoided mixing some disturbing thoughts with the heroine.
2. I started fire and was freaked out with the prologue. weren't you? but i undersood why she had put it there.
3. I reached the middle of fire and thought why the characters are not emotional enough? the book is so dry lol, but i liked the way things were going.
4. The end of fire: I am very irritated! I was like what’s with the novelist and pregnancy or marriage? Seriously.The writer has some issues.
6. I finished reading fire: good points were her ability to use her characters for the book advantage, also her strength was that the plot is interesting and the characters physiological state was well thought of.
7. I am waiting for bitterblue to decide on any further thoughts.

I haven't, but I really want to! I've requested it at my local library!

Who has read Fire? What did you think of it?