I'm looking forward to it, especially since it contains poetry as well.

Cool. I've never read anything else of his. Porius is supposed to be his masterwork, the one he spent his life writing (apparently he considered the rest potboilers), and when it was first published, because of the paper shortage, it was severely abridged. This is the complete work, published for the first time. I bought it because I'd read the poem I mentioned above in an anthology of Celtic works.

I read his book "Wolf Solent" and enjoyed it ages ago, around the time it was written, I think.

Cool. It's a real tome, but it's a fascinating read.

Wendy wrote: "Absolutely, Gabrielle! Have you ever read John Cowper Powys's masterwork of a novel, *Porius*? His rhythms are astounding. He's also a talented poet, and he makes room in the novel for some poetry ..."

I ordered Porius, Wendy. Looking forward to reading it.

I understand how you feel, Wendy. But what if the best poems are those that prose out their lovelies without hurting their poesies? Greetings from my farm in Ibadan, Nigeria.

Erica wrote: "Andrew wrote: "But don't confuse a few worn out 12th century ball gowns for the princess who used to wear them."

Outstanding phrasing, Andrew. I am in awe. What a way to describe it!

"

And yet the image of cadaverous queens
makes one prefer the gowns

Andrew wrote: "Ivy, the reason this debate has gone on so long is that you use language like "prose poets" and "not true poetry." Gregory and David J used the same kind of language, "the only true poetry" "real p..."

Yes, very well said indeed!

David J wrote: "G'day everyone, & sorry Herman for raining on your celebrations of my leaving, one might be able to leave but can still read the posts.

Erica, thank you, no I did not leave because I was "bullie..."

Hello, at the risk of boring you to death I am posting this prose poem of mine for your consideration. This poem is full or rhyme but structured as prose. I have to admit to a bias for all poetry forms. The more I learn, the more I need to learn. I just don't think we can be too exclusive when we are being creative. Perhaps the poem does not want to rhyme. Perhaps it wants to be a limerick or a haiku. Follow the poem -- it knows, I say.

Experiment Number Five-Forty-Two

I knew this woman, some called her contrary. She was my neighbor. I called her Mary. Bill called. Mary’d called him. She said, “I’m getting messages in my teeth. They’re after me and you, Bill.” This woman I knew, Mary, mother of two, ex-wife of one, she called my brother and do you know what she said? She said, “Bill you have to help me, the aliens are talking to me, the government is talking to me, through my teeth. My divorce is final and I’m making a crazy quilt. Oh yeah, and they said you’re next Bill.”

Mary’s marriage was a good marriage. That is, until she decided to improve upon it. Mary and Dave, Mary decided, needed therapy. Dave fell for the Therapist and Mary got the kids. It was all a preparation, like the making of a quilt. Mary was textile, she was fabric, Okay—she was remnants, but she was a part of the plan. Hemmed in you might say, you might say stitched up.

The children you ask? Well what about the children? They were boys of course, miniature men, miniature Davids. And when they went to visit their Daddy and his Therapist for the weekend, the big David asked the little Davids, “How is your mother, Mary?” And they’d answer, “You know Dad. She is acting kind of strange. She’s painting flowers on the porch floor. She’s hanging foil wallpaper in the foyer. She’s painting the woodwork, Dad.” “Frankly Dad, I’m worried.” said the twelve year old little David. “Me too.” said the ten year old little David. “And furthermore Dad, I think Mom is, well, she’s just not well. She’s nutty as hell,Dad,are we going to the movies? Will you buy me an Ipod? Dad, will you take me? Will you take me? Can I live with you?” And the twelve year old little David said, “Yeah Dad, me too.”

Dave went to a Judge, and said, “Your honor, I knew this woman. I married her too. She was okay at first. Then she just kind of blew. I tried sir, my Therapist tried too. And I don’t want my boys with her. And neither would you, if you knew what I knew.” Dave said, “You know Judge, she paints silly flowers on the floor of the porch, she grows herbs Judge, and what’s even worse, when my sons come home from their school, she is dancing in the living room like a crazy fool, or else she is sewing a quilt. Look at her eyes Judge. Do you see them say ‘tilt’?”

The judge looked into the eyes of this mother of two, he said, “Okay, I’ve heard from him, now let’s hear from you.” Mary said, “You know judge, I do this one stitch and looks like bird’s feet, or maybe claws. I’ve stitched is all using just that stitch.” and after a pause she said, “I’ve stitched and stitched, like a mad quilting fool. The yellow is sewn and the orange too. I’ve not found it in me to sew up the blue.” The Judge said, “Mary,” in a most soothing voice, “I’ve a tear in my robe and I’m sure it’s your choice, but— will you sew it? Will you mend it for me? And, Oh, by the way, I’m giving David custody.” And Mary said back, in a yet milder tone, “I’ll be happy to sew it, Judge, sir, I’ll have lots of time, I’ll be all alone.”

It was planned that way. I read the script. Planned and saved up for like next summer’s trip. The government planned it, the aliens too. They called it experiment-number-five-forty-two. And such a relief, they can control women, using only their teeth. I knew this woman her story is true. She stitched in all colors, green, red, yellow and orange too and at long last she stitched up the blue.

Ivy wrote: "Meg, I believe that only a certain person/group of people select the finalists. We all get to vote on the few selected, so I would say that there is a bias somewhere. I do agree that it is very dif..."

Thanks Ivy, You make a good point about the selection, perhaps we can find out how selection is made? I will see if I can find anything in that regard. Even so, I'd give the selectors the benefit of the doubt and hope their bias was more toward good poetry as opposed to weaker poems.

I dwell in the world of everything. I have a graduate degree in fiction. But have been a student of poetry since I was a child. I love all poetry. I believe that any form can work, regardless of whether it is archaic, classic, modern, post-modern. It doesn't really matter. When writing works it is a magical thing. It has to do with the muse, I think. When I have written something I feel is strong, most times this sort of writing shows up on the page in tact, needing very little revision. My point is, it feels like a gift, or as if I was channeling something larger than myself.

Finally, maybe there is a clique. These exist in most places where we submit our work for consideration. I say, no matter, just keep on keeping on. Start your own blog with your work (I did). Form a workshop where you meet with others and critique each others work. Do not allow others to bother you.

You could even start your own Yahoo group...I'll join in if you do!

Unfortunately, no, I haven't read that book, Wendy, but I'll make a point to do so. Thanks.

Edit: Looked it up on Amazon and it sounds great. I marked it to buy next time I order.

Absolutely, Gabrielle! Have you ever read John Cowper Powys's masterwork of a novel, *Porius*? His rhythms are astounding. He's also a talented poet, and he makes room in the novel for some poetry (written by a character who's a bard), including one of my all-time favorite poems, "Taliesen Pen Byrrd." I can't recommend it highly enough, for anyone who loves language in all its forms.

Good prose also has rhythm. A writer of very good prose can tell if there is one word too many in the sentence or paragraph or line of dialogue or one word not enough.

I believe what Andrew meant, when he said that he is not a "poet," is that he is a poet, without the scare quotes. Again, you condescend in your misreading.

A prose poem is a poem without line breaks, not a poem without rhyme.

And anyone who writes GOOD prose knows that it, also, needs to have the best words in the best order. Good prose is no less constructed than good poetry; it is simply constructed with different aims. And your embrace of Ronsard's ridiculous idea illustrates a love of conflict that we could probably all do without.

G'day everyone, & sorry Herman for raining on your celebrations of my leaving, one might be able to leave but can still read the posts.

Erica, thank you, no I did not leave because I was "bullied" I left as some of my comments were being taken out of context & I felt like I was bashing my head against a brick wall, as this group, I feel does have a "clique feeling" Thank you Ivy.

Yes I am passionate about rhyming poetry, as this same passion envelopes someone who loves any genre of literature & said arguments have ensued for decades, rhyming poetry is my life & despite Andrews comment it is "outdated", well it is far from it. I can't speak for Gregory, Erica, but my mind is open to other genre's of literature, I have never said I hate free verse or prose, I have stated though "I am not a fan" or "do not like" & I own many free verse & prose books, I enjoy reading free verse with "rhythm" not just thrown together & I read prose that has great visuals & story & I read them as a very short story because I have not found 1 that has any poetic structure, again THATS ME.

To quote Andrew, "I don't write prose poetry. I don't write false poetry. I am not a "poet." I agree but you could be with a little coaching, your poem, rhymed it is, but (and in my humble & uneducated opinion)apart from the metre & erratic line syllables it is a very good 1st attempt. There You go again putting words into my mouth I have never said (that I can recall) the only true poetry is rhyming poetry or the term "real poetry"

Your comment that rhymed poetry is "old fashioned" I agree, but so many wonderful award winning poems written about life today use this "old fashioned" style also if rhyming poetry is "outdated" why then do I receive so many emails from high school teenagers, & heaven forbid from America, asking for me to, not only donate my book to their library but ask reference to other books of rhyming poetry, Sir I think you should remove your head from the academic sand pit & taste a sample of "real" life & as long as there is music in this world, rhyming poetry will never be outdated.

Quote Andrew," The only reason the debate has been as emotional as it has been and has gone on as long as it has is because you and other members of the rhymed orthodox branch deride and dismiss what the rest of us do and care about"
So you are saying because someone prefers rhyming poetry they don't "care" about other forms of literature?

The argument between the different forms and styles of poetry will continue long after my body has left this earth, therefore, so Herman can continue with his celebrations I will again leave this group but leave you all with this.

Poetry and prose

from Wikipedia

Prose lacks the formal structure of meter or rhyme which is typical of poetry; instead it is composed of full sentences, usually divided into paragraphs, and then smaller segments known as meta-paragraphs. Although some works of prose may happen to contain traces of metrical structure or versification, a conscious blend of the two forms of literature is known as a prose poem. Similarly, the poetry with less of the common rules and limitations of verse is known as free verse. Poetry is considered to be artificially developed ("The best words in the best order"), whereas prose is thought to be less constructed and more reflective of ordinary speech.[1:] Pierre de Ronsard, the French poet, said that his training as a poet had proved to him that prose and poetry were mortal enemies.

Bye all & I believe the term is "Merry Christmas"!! (not happy holidays)

Well said, Andrew. Thanks.

Ivy, the reason this debate has gone on so long is that you use language like "prose poets" and "not true poetry." Gregory and David J used the same kind of language, "the only true poetry" "real poetry" "what they do is prose" etc.

If you ask me, for one, and I think many other people here:

Why isn't there more rhymed poetry in this group?

The answer wont be "because it isn't real poetry" or "because what you write isn't poetry" or "what you think you know about poetry is false".

You might get: because rhymed poetry is old fashioned. Because rhymed poetry is outdated. Because rhymed poetry is too conservative.

The only reason the debate has been as emotional as it has been and has gone on as long as it has is because you and other members of the rhymed orthodox branch
deride and dismiss what the rest of us do and care about.

I don't write prose poetry. I don't write false poetry. I am not a "poet."

Meg, I believe that only a certain person/group of people select the finalists. We all get to vote on the few selected, so I would say that there is a bias somewhere. I do agree that it is very difficult to write a decent rhyming poem. That's one of the smaller reasons I dislike prose; it seems like poets have decided to take it easy, while claiming they've studied poetry for years. I do not think that how long you've studied in a big school makes a poet. It's the love of the challenge.

Neil, no matter how much I would like to agree with Gabrielle, and say that the "clique feeling" will disappear after a time, I cannot do so. When I joined last January, I was expecting a group of poetry of all kinds, but in June, I asked a simple question, and a debate about rhyming poetry was sparked. Basically, what I've found, is that the group is a place for the modern "poets". A place for prose poets and their poems which, in my opinion, are not true poetry.

I read all the poems. Every one. I saw some good ones that rhyme, but it's not my decision to choose the ones for voting; this is Amy's group. I have confidence in what she does here. I do have to say that while I liked some of the rhyming ones, I think the ones chosen were among the very best. I would imagine the ones deemed the best are chosen, whether they rhyme or not. I don't think there's any intentional decision to exclude rhyming poems. There were quite a few really excellent poems this month.

Neil, lots of new groups seem like a clique, but you just have to stay in the group and show you want to be an active part of it and that feeling of this being a clique will be gone in a week or two. Guaranteed.

I didn't read all of the poems entered (there were so many!). I'd like to know which poems that rhyme were excluded that you think were good enough to make the cut. The simple fact that a poem rhymes doesn't make it good any more than it makes it not good. NO ONE HERE has argued that there's anything wrong with rhyme, and many have agreed that, in fact, rhyming poetry is valid.

As a newbie, I'd like to chip in here. I met a poet the other day, walking in the park, and he spontaneously recited one of his poems, a poignant piece about his father. It was beautiful and it rhymed, it spoke to my heart. I can't believe he would be the only person capable of writing such beautiful poems so it seems odd that rhyming poems would be missing from any sort of open poetry contest. Free choice only works when you have real alternatives to choose from (the UK political system at the moment is testimony to that). Also, I think it's a shame to curtail a debate because its gone on too long. On first impressions, this poetry group is a bit of a clique...hope you'll all prove me wrong!

Gregory wrote: "Aria wrote: "woooow. all of these are amazing!!! are they written by people who are all in this group????"

Yes. But also we do have people who write in rhymes. "

there's nothing wrong with rhymes, is there?

Jerry wrote: "1 vote for KWP.

However this round is chock full of poetic talent. I am in awe."

I agree with that. There sure are some terrific poems here this month. It was difficult for me to make a choice.

Herman wrote: "good old gregory and davidJ both are gone out of this group
i think we can celebrate now!"

I don't think that's a reason to celebrate, Herman. Bullying others into leaving is not something to be celebrated.

Don't take this the wrong way, folks, because I don't think they were bullied into leaving. I do think that tensions ran a bit high, though. It's a shame that the passion for poetry closes people's minds to any other forms. Still, I don't think it should be celebrated that they have left. Their passion was worthy of respect.

1 vote for KWP.

However this round is chock full of poetic talent. I am in awe.

I feel compelled to respond to the idea that a conspiracy against rhymed poems, with regard to the monthly contest shortlist, exists. Who can be held accountable for the lack of rhymed nominees? Are selections not 'voter' selected?

Secondly, I believe that a decent rhymed poem is very difficult to write. Not many can create something worthwhile within the constrains of rhyme and meter. In fact, I have read boat loads of lousy rhyming poems. (Not here, elsewhere).

Finally, if this is a voter generated selection, I don't believe it involves bias. Rather, folks liked the non-rhyming pieces better.

This entire line of argument strikes me as an absurd waste of keystrokes. I suggest everyone use their time to attempt to write something decent. Rhyming or not!

The Panther

The panther is like a leopard,
Except it hasn't been peppered.
Should you behold a panther crouch,
Prepare to say Ouch.
Better yet, if called by a panther,
Don't anther.

Ogden Nash

Annette, I thought my poem was quite nice, and though written quickly, I don't find that it feels rushed. It's hardly spew. It actually makes Gregory's case in 14 lines. Can you do better?

Your point of this poem shows a rushed and poorly thought out spew of words that may rhyme, but not in time with a rhythm.

Point taken: Rhyming does NOT guarantee a good poem.

But, Rhyming isn't a dirty word-it's a gallant evasive challenge to keep a message from sounding like a commercial jingle. Internal rhyming can work to prevent this, alliteration, inflection, and other tools of the trade can weave a great poem from a gifted inspired poet. I haven't read all the poetry,
but don't bother to. The nominees show a blantant bias. There must have been some good "non" freestyle poetry, but the point for the contest is moot now.

good old gregory and davidJ both are gone out of this group
i think we can celebrate now!

Maybe, just maybe, the reason there have been no rhymed poems in the final selections is because there have been no good rhymed poems offered. I hate to be a wet blanket, but just because something rhymes doesn't mean it's good. It seems that there are dozens of poets writing in open forms and only three or four writing in rhymed verse. Given those odds, it's highly likely that a preponderance of open forms would be selected each month.

Just because it rhymes doesn't mean it's good.

To prove my point, I'm going to write a rhymed poem in sixty seconds:

FIELD OF BATTLE-VERSE

for Gregory

I walked into the garden and I said
Let poetry be a field unto which the red
Blood flows as slaughtering goes along
Killing all free versers who belong
To jaundiced faculties of moribund
Self-worth, giving scholarships that fund
More of their pitiable kind.
Hark!! Poetry must mind
It's Ps and Qs, its arrivederchis
And arrivederlas, its qi,
Its wa. It must have strict rules
That repeat, otherwise the fools
Will run off with all the beauty
And go and make it sooty!

Sorry to repeat what was already said by Amy (although it does seem like few who have stuck it out to this point in the discussion mind repetition), but I think we should probably move this conversation elsewhere. This is for voting for the poems up, not for debating them. We might want to move it to a more appropriate ground.

Also, Gregory, your line -- "Poetry is sword - of metal for mature, of plastic for children" -- is absolutely brilliant! Wow!

Count this as a vote for "The Princess’s Dilemma."

There was a rhymer nominated in October - "Me and You." And in July, the nominee "A Promise and a Prayer" rhymed, too.

I vote for Broomstick

Amy wrote: "Malcolm,

Your conclusion that "no rhyming poems" have been selected is just false. Before you boast such blatant claims, you need to go back through all of the months and determine if no rhyming ..."

I did as you sugggested Amy and here are the figures for the last nine months:

March - five shortlisted, none rhyming
April - seven shortlisted, none rhyming
May - five shortlisted, none rhyming
June - six shortlisted, none rhyming
July - seven shortlisted, none rhyming
August - five shortlisted, none rhyming
September - eight shortlisted, none rhyming
October - six shortlisted, none rhyming
November - nine shortlisted, none rhyming.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Maybe I don't know what a rhyme is...

Nine months - fully justifying my use of the phrase "month after month after month" - and not a single rhyming poem shortlisted from a total of 58.

There is something very wrong here.

I am even more troubled now to be accused of bullying, simply for drawing attention to this.

Let me just be clear: non-rhyming poetry made me a fan of poerty many years ago. I currently prefer to write and read rhyming poetry myself - but not to the exclusion of other forms. What I seek here is balance - nothing more.

I agree very much - RHYMING IS THE HEALTHY PART OF THE POETRY. And I love Rilke. Fashion does not apply to real poetry.

Gregory wrote: "What a selection! We all enjoy the freedom of speech. But why a rhymed poem is not here to vote for?
I PROTEST. English poetry is not free verse only. I think we all know that and this has to be ..."

I very much enjoyed the poem, "Ocean -- new life" not exactly because of the rhyming, although I think rhyming is a healthy part of poetry, but because of the imagery the words caused in my mind and the rhythm, or cadences, the words made. There are different kinds of rhyming as well, one where rhyming words end a stanza, or when words or phrases are repeated, or certain words are repeated in subsequent verses. For instance, one of my favorite poets is Rilke. Old fashioned I know but that style is what stays with me, and lives as ideas in my mind. For me there needs to be some drama and a sense of completion or resolution when the last word is said. Poetry needs to be spoken out loud, that is when it achieves vitality.

Amy wrote: "VOTE IN THE POLL ON THE POETRY GROUP'S MAIN PAGE! (CLICK THIS LINK TO VOTE! --> JUST SELECT TITLE OF POEM YOU LIKE BEST!


Poquita is my first choice, The Princess's Dilemma second.

Amy wrote: "Dear Gregory et al,

I have refrained from curbing your discussions about rhyme for sometime now, but I have finally received enough complaints to ask you to please move discussions about this topi..."

Thank you. I was beginning to think that I would have to quit this group since I was getting truly bored with the repetition and the frequent lack of civility.

Amy wrote: "Malcolm,

Your conclusion that "no rhyming poems" have been selected is just false. Before you boast such blatant claims, you need to go back through all of the months and determine if no rhyming ..."

Amy, you said:"Walt Whitman is Father of American poetry" - does it means you consider American poetry is free verse?

I really liked The Beatitude of Swimming Nude. It rose above the the other stuff I read here.

Perry BrassThe Manly Art of Seduction, How to Meet, Talk To, and Become Intimate with Anyone

Malcolm,

Your conclusion that "no rhyming poems" have been selected is just false. Before you boast such blatant claims, you need to go back through all of the months and determine if no rhyming poems have been selected - and you will find that this simply isn't the case.

Further, the constant repetition of such a claim is downright bullying. Pointless and dogmatic.

Jim wrote: "Gregory wrote: "Jim wrote: "Gregory wrote: "Dave,dear friend,don't leave this site. It is not just American, it is English international. Besides American poetry is not just Whitman and his followe..."
I'll be glad, Jim. Poetry is sword - of metal for mature, of plastic for children.

Jé wrote: "Gregory and David, could you please start a poetry competition here on Goodreads for rhymed verse only? I promise you that those who write free verse will not be offended if they don't make the fin..."

Jim wrote: "Gregory wrote: "Jim wrote: "Gregory wrote: "Dave,dear friend,don't leave this site. It is not just American, it is English international. Besides American poetry is not just Whitman and his followe..."

No,because POETRY is both DICKINSON and WHITMAN.

Jé wrote: "You are right in one thing, my intention is not to divide. It is to solve a problem.

Because a rhyming poem does not exist in the final poems does not mean that there is a policy of exclusion. Tha..."

I know there is not a conscious policy excluding rhyming poems Jé, which is why I was careful to say "what amounts to a policy".

My bias - if I have one - is in favor or not having a bias.

What the Poetry Group is failing to fulfill - though perhaps it never explicitly assumed responsibility for doing so - is to provide the opportunity for writers to learn from each other and this failure is particularly notable in relation to the competition which appears to say, month after month, none of the rhyming poems that have been submitted are of as high a quality as the non-rhyming poems. And it appears to say this without any explanation from which we might learn.

For those confused by the lack of representation of rhymming poetry in the competition shortlists (month after month after month) it would be good to understand what it is that makes the shortlisted poems worthy of such a status.

"It should be included because it is good." tells the learner nothing...

All we are left with is the message from the bias - of statistical significance - for non-rhyming that "rhyming poetry has no place here - no matter how good it is."

Jé wrote: "You are right in one thing, my intention is not to divide. It is to solve a problem.

Because a rhyming poem does not exist in the final poems does not mean that there is a policy of exclusion. ... I love rhyming poetry. But not all of it. And it shouldn't be included just because it exists. It should be included because it is good."

Well said, my friend.

Trish

You are right in one thing, my intention is not to divide. It is to solve a problem.

Because a rhyming poem does not exist in the final poems does not mean that there is a policy of exclusion. That's just not logical.

Nor should fans of rhyming poetry want a rhyming poem included in the final selections at any cost. That would be tokenism. Which has no place in the world of art, period.

The way that I understand it, the issue is not about equality, but quality. I love rhyming poetry. But not all of it. And it shouldn't be included just because it exists. It should be included because it is good. I hope that your bias in favor of rhyming poetry is not so strong that you don't allow for that.

Jé wrote: "Gregory and David, could you please start a poetry competition here on Goodreads for rhymed verse only? I promise you that those who write free verse will not be offended if they don't make the fin..."

The point continues to be missed Jé.

If "Rhyming verse and free verse are merely two of the poetries that the big umbrella of poetry covers." then that should be represented here, in the existing poetry competition and any suggestion to start a competition "for rhymed verse only" would expand the already existing rift to which I and others are trying to draw everyone's attention. This rift has been caused by what amounts to a policy of exclusion, not the passionate reaction that has followed the manifestation of that policy.

I know you don't intend such a meaning, but the subtext of your suggestion says "people who want rhyme should go somewhere else."

My vote is for Grassland. Bravo.

Gregory and David, could you please start a poetry competition here on Goodreads for rhymed verse only? I promise you that those who write free verse will not be offended if they don't make the finals, and will probably not protest. Seems like an apt solution, rather than constantly widening this inane schism.

Rhyming verse and free verse are merely two of the poetries that the big umbrella of poetry covers. I noticed that there were no concrete or prose poets worried about making the cut. I really don't believe that your passion is misplaced - just that your anger is not the appropriate emotion - it only serves to widen the rift that you wish to close.