After Dark (Murakami Haruki) is pretty good. A little odd at times, but good nonetheless.

Marc: thanks for the warnings. I love books that hint at things, at broader meanings that let your imagination roam. That's why I like Murakami.

As is my wont, I made it sound a lot more interesting than it actually is. It's not a bad book. None of his books are out-and-out bad. And he's got this magic writing style that carries you along. But as I have said before, it's compelling until you finish it. He hints at all sorts of deeper currents of meaning in the stories, and has even started trying to present an actual _other_ world in his recent novels. But it's a joke, a huge letdown.

I think that's what really irritates me about his writing: he has a lot of potential, and his writing style is so good, that it creates very high expectations inside me. And he has never really lived up to those expectations.

By the way, any chance IQ84 is a parody of the future - a la Orwell's 1984? I have to read this book!

I'll have to take a look at IQ84 to see how serious Murakami was about what he wrote. If he was serious, then darn, he's no better than the modernists. If he's writing "tongue in cheek," then that's another matter.

Mark: I like your focus on form rather than only plot.

Kris: do the women always have to be crazy avengers?

Marc: sounds as if Murakami is determined to take us away from the old subservient stereotype of Japanese women by creating the woman you mentioned as the main character in his new book. Tongue in cheek, maybe???

Marc wrote: "Incidentally, the last book (1Q84) is very sexist. One of the characters is a young woman, and every time we encounter her, we get a long description of how fantastic her large breasts look in the ..."

Yes I'm inclined to agree with your opinion on Murakami's writing. I also tell others not to take Murakami too seriously. Most of the time, I don't think he's trying to convey any particular message or idea. I like to tell other readers that with Murakami, it's more about the experience. And that works for me because I tend to focus more on form rather than plot.

@Harvee: I get a lot of insights from you Harvee, and I thank you for introducing me to Yoko Ogawa. I like her writing :)

@Lindu: Thanks, that's very enlightening. I never knew about that modernist trend in Japan's post war era.

@Kris: I very much agree with what you said that "they were simply reflecting the reality of the time". I believe that what a writer portrays in his stories doesn't necessarily equate to his own personal views or principles. Some writers are simply good at reflecting society the way they see it.

Incidentally, the last book (1Q84) is very sexist. One of the characters is a young woman, and every time we encounter her, we get a long description of how fantastic her large breasts look in the sweater/t-shirt/dress she's wearing, and Murakami goes out of his way to mention the other women in the restaurant/park/office, whose breasts are all very disappointing by comparison.

And not to mention that the main character, a woman, is a bicurious professional assassin with a thing for bald men "a la Sean Connery," who has anonymous sex with men she berates beforehand, unless she's with her lesbian lover and they're looking for guys for a four-way.

It would be risible if everyone didn't take his writing so seriously. I'm with Kris -- Murakami's writing can be good, and sometimes moving in an mysterious way. But when you put it down, you realize it's utterly devoid of content. It's all hints and teases, combined with his beautiful writing style which keeps you reading, despite the emptiness.

Anyway, his last novel was horrible, but the Murakami-worshiping machine has gone into overdrive, on both sides of the Pacific. The whole thing is a joke which is no longer funny.

Mr Murakami is a "rockstar" because he manages the feat of appearing somewhat "literary" while remaining chock full of pop culture references to give the kids what they want. Though his books certainly aren't in the John Grisham depths of the intelligence barrel, he's thankfully never threatened his readers with anything approaching a deep thought. As far as I can glean - and keep in mind that this is having read a number of the author's works (Wild Sheep Chase, Wind Up Bird Chronicle, Kafka on the Shore, Sputnik Sweetheart, and The Elephant Vanishes as far as I can recall) - Murakami is pretty much content to create a vague sense of urban ennui and dread, coupled with a number of "surreal" episodes, references to whatever pop song the hero may be listening to at any given time, and keeps the pace fairly brisk - and it's a good formula that serves him well. And I've liked the books, even if in retrospect I have a hard time telling them apart (only that Wind Up Bird had some war sections that showed real brilliance and that Kafka had a few uncomfortably Oedipal scenes). But it's not truly great art as far as I'm concerned.



I think the depiction of Japanese women in classic fiction is a little more complicated than people here make out: are they all subservient little dolls or are they just treated that way by their men? And consider how the Japanese man is presented in many of these books too: cold, cruel, boring, boorish, incapable of real affection, never in any way "heroic." The women, while often superficially in the minor role, often find ways to pull the strings, and often come across as ultimately more awake, more human than the men. And they certainly didn't always play the passive role: Kawabata's Beauty and Sadness - and others, like Tanizaki's Quicksand, or Mizoguchi's great film Sisters of Gion - contrasts the repressed traditional Japanese woman with the "modern girl" who takes the role of avenger.

The best Japanese writers had insight and sensitivity, and if they created passive women they were simply reflecting the reality of the time; and sometimes holding a mirror to reality is enough.

As for "new and refreshing" Japanese fiction, most of it holds about as much appeal for me as the latest "new and refreshing" Dan Brown extravaganza. But I admit to a preference for traditional Japan, its elegance and attention to aesthetics (without denying its faults and cruelties) to the modern-day cityscape of pachinko parlors, pornographic comic books, singing toasters, and the terrifying ubiquity of the dastardly Hello Kitty.

Harvee wrote: "Mark David wrote: "Harvee wrote: "I don't like the way women are often portrayed by the older Japanese writers. I find it patronizing, sexist, etc. and though the situations may have been true for..."

If something frustrates you, of course you don’t have to read it, but we are all products of our time. As a girl, I can say I don’t get offended by older authors’ portrayal of women. I see those books as cultural artefacts, and not a direct offence at everything female.

However, I believe you’re talking about modernist writers. Modernism in Japan was a period of oppression for women, greater than it had ever been, because it came from Japan’s political imperialist need to show the world it was capable of aligning itself to Western standards. A far cry from Japan’s original matriarchal system. Immediately after the war, women were separated into two spheres: the good, virginal type and the evil seductress. Which is why Japanese men rarely had sex with their wives. The "sexual reformation" in Japan just promoted the ideal of the ryosai kenbo, or the good wife and wise mother. It was their education. In schools they had Purity Manuals for fuck’s sake; and they targeted only girls. This is the kind of society people grew up in.

Postmodernism changed all that, changed this limited array of female types that an author could pick up like an image of still life and retouch here and there for added personality. Postmodernism actually rejects the idea of female-ness. But these are just general trends. Murakami, especially in his early work, has a very flat style regarding women. They can all be reduced to the same typology.

Have you read any Murasaki Shikibu or Sei Shonagon? Take the un-contemporary Japanese quotidien directly from the female eye.

Mark David wrote: "Harvee wrote: "I don't like the way women are often portrayed by the older Japanese writers. I find it patronizing, sexist, etc. and though the situations may have been true for the past, I'd much..."

Mark David: Thanks for enlightening me about Kawabata's book. I'll try to read it. I was generalizing of course but the few books I've read by the older Japanese "masters" gave me a negative impression of the status of women in the past.

I'd much rather read something new and refreshing, such as Murakami.

Harvee wrote: "I don't like the way women are often portrayed by the older Japanese writers. I find it patronizing, sexist, etc. and though the situations may have been true for the past, I'd much rather read mo..."

I'm not an expert on the subject but I feel I'd have to agree with your observations Harvee. Growing up, I've always heard how in the traditional Japanese culture women are generally considered to be of a lower social standing. But you know, I found it surprising how this appears not to be the case in Kawabata's novel The Old Capital. In that novel, women appeared to be loved and respected, and their opinions seemed to be considered important. Is it because Kawabata had been a writer whose views were a little modern for his time?

I don't like the way women are often portrayed by the older Japanese writers. I find it patronizing, sexist, etc. and though the situations may have been true for the past, I'd much rather read more modern and contemporary views of Japanese society.

Kris wrote: "Quite a few, in fact. I'm not opposed to Murakami, even if I act like it. I find him perfectly adequate for what he aspires to, and though the books kind of blend together for me, they've all been ..."

Hehe, well I think it's good that you're keeping the balance :)

I think Murakami is somewhat of a versatile writer, and in that sense his works appear (at least to me) inconsistent. This perhaps allows him to cater to a wider audience but prevents many readers from liking everything he's written. It's a plain simple fact that different people tend to like different things. There are writers whom you can expect to deliver the same flavor, the same flair, everytime they write and this gives them the advantage of having fans that truthfully enjoy every single piece they write. But with Murakami, I think, this is difficult to achieve. For instance, Norwegian Wood is one of my top favorite books and I firmly believe that I didn't like it just for the hype (especially since I read it even before knowing that Murakami is a popular writer, and even until now Murakami is still far from famous here in the Philippines). But despite loving that novel, I don't even have the slightest desire to read some of Murakami's other works.

Lindu wrote: "Mark David wrote: "Murakami's Running (...) [is:] about something much deeper than just "jogging" :) As you might already k..."

Yes, but as a collective, we should be looking into a Japanese read..."

Ah yes, if we're looking for a "Japanese reading experience" and not just any work from a Japanese author then I also don't think the Running book would be a good choice (sorry, I thought this is just about a Japanese read-along). I haven't read that many Japanese books yet, but I would think that something in the likes of Kawabata's novels would be a better candidate on this matter.

I consider Murakami to be a unique writer, and I do think he's brilliant. But I'm not a die-hard fan, he's not my #1 favorite, and at least half of his short stories that I've read I didn't like. I also don't think he's the "World's Greatest Writer". I don't believe there is such a person. Let's be honest with ourselves and admit that whenever anyone talks about his favorite writer, there'll always be someone else who can dish out perfectly good arguments why that writer is not the world's best.

Why is Murakami a "rockstar" these days? I'm inclined to think that many readers are just caught up in the hype without even realizing his true brilliance.

Quite a few, in fact. I'm not opposed to Murakami, even if I act like it. I find him perfectly adequate for what he aspires to, and though the books kind of blend together for me, they've all been rather pleasant (I have never actively disliked a Murakami novel). He even has rare moments of real brilliance. However, sometimes I feel like I have to bash Murakami because no one else does. I don't like the championing of Murakami as World's Greatest Writer because it's both frankly untrue by a pretty wide margin and that so many people who should know better say so is a worrying sign.

Kris: Have you read any Murakami as yet?

Marc wrote: "Well there you go. It's more than about running."

Indeed. I hereby humbly revoke my sarcastic comments.

Mark David wrote: "Murakami's Running (...) [is:] about something much deeper than just "jogging" :) As you might already k..."

Yes, but as a collective, we should be looking into a Japanese reading experience, not a jogging experience, no matter how creative it might be.

If you want insight into Murakami as an individual and a writer, that relates ever so slightly to what this book club is about: digging into literary territory that goes further than commonly read authors. And I think everyone here has read at least one book by Haruki Murakami. By the way, he has written only one other non-fiction book worth reading, in my opinion: Underground

Well there you go. It's more than about running.

Hello! I've already read the first chapter of Murakami's Running book a couple months ago and I have to tell you guys, it's about something much deeper than just "jogging" :) As you might already know, it's a memoir, and in it he explains his creative writing process, and how his love for running (among other things) plays a part in it. I'm actually looking forward to getting back into it so that's why I voted for that book in this poll :)

He's like a rock star these days; he can do no wrong with his followers.

I'd also like to add that I'm more than slightly amused how Murakami can publish a book about jogging - an activity of entertainment value on par with, and an artistic purpose perhaps somewhat below that of rock polishing - and still see it translated and sell like hot cakes. Good on ya, Haruki!

Sorry, have to wait to next year to do any serious reading of Japanese Lit. Too bogged down with other stuff this year. Have fun with your choices. Looking forward to the reviews.

We are still reading B&S (freak overtime hit) and are discussing the new choices, this book club IS a great idea, I was just thinking the other day how someone new to Japanese Literature could browse the discussions at any time in the future and be inspired to read the book. I have also enjoyed browsing the nominated books as well, we will continue as long as the club does! I invited someone to the poll who I thought might enjoy in time for this voting :)

Right, everybody shimmy on down to the poll ;)

Entirely anonymous, and you can change your vote whenever you want, until the deadline- Nov 20.

Got it.

Some of those which you list as having one vote have only been nominated, not voted yet. The tally is in the Voting thread... is that confusing? I just followed the route Zala took last time, one thread for nominations, a separate one for voting. Okay... I’ll do a poll, see if people prefer to vote anonymously.

What's the tally so far?

Oe Combo 1
Naomi 2
Dark Night's Passing 1
And Then 1
Kappa 1
Masks 1
Botchan 1
Running 1

Everyone's just nominating books left and right. I left out my vote from the tally because I'm easy like Sunday morning, but if it'll tip the balance, I'll vote for Naomi.

We have too few votes to end the thing, and I give it till the 15th. Not enough people have voted, which I find strange, but maybe they don’t like the book club idea.

I think we should all (i.e. us fellow book club members) read whatever comes out. I’ll read anything. I’m just biased against Masks because I’ve already read it.

Also, I really should say that I willing to go with any of the ones Kris suggested.

When does voting end?

Naomi ftw.

hmm sounded newer. =P sorry didnt actually look at the date it was made. ^_^;;
i edited the post accordingly.

Botchan is actually about 60 years older than the other one we read.

Here's a comment about Enchi, author of Masks from http://japaneseliterature.wordpress.com/...
"Although Enchi is primarily known in Japan for her 1971 novel Onnazaka, for which she won the prestigious Akutagawa Prize (this novel has been translated into English by John Bester under the title “The Waiting Years”), I tend to prefer Masks. Although its title refers to the masks of Noh drama, particularly the “madwoman” masks, which lend their names to the novel’s chapter titles, the novel draws the majority of its themes and allusions from the aforementioned Tale of Genji. The parallels Enchi draws between The Tale of Genji and the world of her novel are numerous and quite interesting. Not only does she draw distinct parallels between her characters and the characters of the Heian romance, but she also makes use of such classic “Genji” themes as spirit possession and substitution to subvert the patriarchal and misogynistic society that holds sway in the worlds of both novels.

Although Masks is primarily narrated from the point of view of a male college professor named Ibuki, who is cast in the role of Genji, its true hero is an older woman named Mieko, a powerful Lady Rokujō-like figure with a painful past and mysterious intentions. As Mieko’s protégée, Yasuko, explains to Ibuki,

“Believe me, she is a woman of far greater complexity than you – or anyone – realize. The secrets inside her mind are like flowers in a garden at nighttime, filling the darkness with perfume. Oh, she has extraordinary charm. Next to that secret charm of hers, her talent as a poet is really only a sort of costume.”

The novel centers around Mieko’s attempt to use this “secret charm” of hers in order to set into motion a deep and complex scheme of revenge, creation, and rebirth. I don’t want to give away the ending, but everything about Mieko and her plan is beautiful, terrible, and thought-provoking. I would say that this novel is perhaps the best introduction to Japanese literature, and more specifically Japanese women’s literature, ever published. If you can find a copy of this novel, buy it! No matter where your literary interests lie, this is a novel you need to read.

Botchan A Modern Classic

I'm curious because i havent read it yet.
And im curious =P

What I Talk About When I Talk About Running
Newer Murakami, yay.

I would be interested to read any of the books suggested so far, although I agree with Marc that reading the Kojiki to cover would be painful. I'm not sure what everybody's thoughts on Akutagawa Ryunosuke are, but I've been meaning to read this for a while:

Kappa

I'm also shamefully under-read in female Japanese authors (with the exception of Ogawa Yoko, who is excellent), so I wouldn't mind giving Enchi Fumiko a try.

Masks

I know barely anything about either of these books, but they seem to be widely available in English so we shouldn't have a great deal of trouble getting our hands on them.

By the way, this whole Japanese book club is a great idea!

Wow, that would be twisted. The content is fascinating, but the presentation leaves a lot to be desired. It's like eating hay (as someone said in another context) or reading a patent application. I started reading it in a "conversational translation" 口語訳古事記 完全版, which is really just a retelling, and it was okay, but you'd have to be a pretty hard-core mythology buff to read the whole thing, I think.

Thanks for the input, Kris and Marc.

I think we’ll start voting on Monday, so there’s still time to nominate. I had a twisted hope that someone would eventually nominate something like The Kojiki Records of Ancient Matters. I haven’t read it cover to cover, and it would provide an interesting discussion if we have people here interested in myths and/or religion.

I´m good with all of those.

While I don't think any really worthwhile discussion got off the ground about the last book (mostly along the lines of Ilikedit/Ididntlikeit), the Japanese books in my queue currently are AND THEN by Natsume Soseki, DARK NIGHT'S PASSING by Naoya Shiga, and NAOMI by Tanizaki Junichiro. Should one of the following be picked, I'll throw in me two cents. Peace.

That sounds good. I'm looking through what I've got already, and that's the one Oe book I don't have. I can get it, though, and I think I will even if we don't end up reading it.

I don't know how widely read other people are in Japanese lit in general, but his "A Personal Matter" is also great, and a good introduction to his writing (early).

No ideas? I've been wanting to read this for a while:
Rouse Up, O Young Men of the New Age

Though it will probably end up being for December.
You know the score, get nominating!

The general guidelines are to be found here.