Anna wrote: "Ally wrote: "Anna wrote: "And don't let me get started on the practive of confinement..."

..oh no - please get started on that"

http://www.janeausten.co.uk/magazine/pag...

Ally wrote: "Anna wrote: "And don't let me get started on the practive of confinement..."

..oh no - please get started on that - its always mentioned in historical fiction books - I think I remember it invol..."

In ealier days it emant being stuck in a room, all doors and windows closed with a hot fire going for the month or two before the baby was born. Women were essentially treated as invalids, put on strange diets and told not exert themselves in anyway. By C19, it was more about the fact of pregancy being indecent and women were not supposed to be seen in public as the baby started to show, although apparently the Americans were more instistant on this than the Brits...

Ally wrote: "...interesting - its amazing what you do in your head to older words and games and things - for all my life so far I thought bagatelle was like an early pin-ball machine without the springs and play..."

And I thought it was a Venetian gondolier's song. Oh no, that's a barcarole. My other choice was a long bread roll.

I think you're spot on, actually - another source lists it as a precursor to today's pin-ball machine:
"Bagatelle is a precursor of the pinball machine (which is also descended from pachinko), and laterally related to miniature golf." (care of wiki).

And there's an image here: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3043/2449...

...interesting - its amazing what you do in your head to older words and games and things - for all my life so far I thought bagatelle was like an early pin-ball machine ithout the springs and played with marbles on a wooden board with pins nailed in to guide (or thwart) the marbles to the holes! - never realised it was played with a cue! - Thanks!

Ally

bagatelle board - Somewhat like billiards. A table with nine holes in it at one end was the playing surface; one tried to knock balls into it with a cue. It turns up in Little Dorrit - Dickens himself played it while barricaded into an inn across the street from a violent election campaign he was covering as a reporter that was probably the model from the Eatanswill goings-on in Pickwick.
(p.263)

Laurele wrote: "Starling wrote: "So that is why we have different names for lawyers in the US and England. Always wondered. "

Yes, that was very helpful to me."

There was also the distinction between barristers (trial lawyers) and solicitors (lawyers that take care of contracts, wills and other paper works), which has been maintained up to the present day. Apparently barristers were considered much higher in social rank than solicitors.

Anna wrote: "They really did wear those kinds of corsets until the nineteen-teens brought in a slim sillouhette. And then there were corsets that promotted straight posture and a 'flat' look i.e. no breast, sto..."

I've seen those pictures. It's horrible to think that some young girls in those times were forced / coerced to wear those. It's similar to the practice of footbinding for Chinese girls. But surely not everyone can afford to wear those? If you have to work for a living, like on a farm or in a shop, those corsets would make normal movement difficult. But perhaps that's the whole point of wearing them; only ladies of leisure can wear them.

Dickens makes great use of back parlors in several of his books, particularly Dombey and Son.

Another novel, lesser known (and less serious, but a great Goldilocks read, neither too light nor too heavy, with special interest for literature lovers) which uses the back parlor of a shop as a major feature of the book is Elizabeth Goudge's A City of Bells

back parlor - Many residences, especially small shops, often had a front parlor or shop used for customers or transacting business. The small, modest space at the back of the building for household affairs was the back parlor.

Anna wrote: "And don't let me get started on the practive of confinement..."

..oh no - please get started on that - its always mentioned in historical fiction books - I think I remember it involving geing confined to a hot stuffy bedroom with no air and having to lie still for about 2 months - but I'm sure that can't be right - it would be great to know the real story!

Ally

Starling wrote: "Anna, the kind of corset you are discussing must have been horrible. And I belong to the put your teenager into a girdle generation, which was also pretty horrible and I got out of them in my 20s, ..."

True bras did not exist, but not all corsets actually supported the breasts. Some were primarily concerned with narrowing the waist and creating the sillhouette:

http://www.knowlesville.com/vintage/cors...

Anna, the kind of corset you are discussing must have been horrible. And I belong to the put your teenager into a girdle generation, which was also pretty horrible and I got out of them in my 20s, or as soon as it was possible.

My mother was put into a under the breast to thigh with a "long line" bra by a doctor for back pain when she was 40 in the early 1950s. Easily the most miserable device I've ever seen or heard of. Probably every bit as bad as the ones from 100 years earlier.

Nevertheless, they had to wear something. Bras did not exist.

Starling wrote: "So that is why we have different names for lawyers in the US and England. Always wondered. "

Yes, that was very helpful to me.

They really did wear those kinds of corsets until the nineteen-teens brought in a slim sillouhette. And then there were corsets that promotted straight posture and a 'flat' look i.e. no breast, stomachs or butts protuding. Absolutely painful and dangerously unhealthy. In fact,some girls as young as 10 were put in corsets at night to begin the development of the 'proper' figure. There are some disturbing images of the rearrangment of internal organs caused by corsetting. Not to mention the 'pregnancy corset' that ensured you would not lose your figure until your confinement. And don't let me get started on the practive of confinement...

Starling wrote: "But remember that a goodly number of women wore Rational Dress. And a basic corset was actually a bra-equivalent.

Having worn petticoats and hoops in the 1950s, let me assure you that although th..."

This is what I'm thinking of when Victorian corsets are mentioned :

"Victorian wasp waist hourglass corset was very unhealthy, as opposed to the modern wasp waist hourglass corset.[citation needed:] With a modern hourglass corset, the stomach is over the waistline, whereas with a Victorian hourglass corset, the stomach is in the waistline".

Link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hourglass_c...

Wearing that would make anyone swoon, and apparently also deformed in the long run. Did they really wear those kind of corsets in Victorian times? It must have been a torture.

But remember that a goodly number of women wore Rational Dress. And a basic corset was actually a bra-equivalent.

Having worn petticoats and hoops in the 1950s, let me assure you that although they made sitting down interesting, they didn't take your breath away. <grin>

Paula wrote: "backboards - Stiff, straight boards that girls wore against their backs in order to improve their posture. Sometimes they were apparently strapped on.
(p.263)

Yay - I finally made it to the Bs!"

I'm so glad that I'm not a Victorian woman! With all those backboards/ whale bone corsets/layered petticoats/ hoops etc., it is no great wonder that they were always swooning.

backboards - Stiff, straight boards that girls wore against their backs in order to improve their posture. Sometimes they were apparently strapped on.
(p.263)

Yay - I finally made it to the Bs!

So that is why we have different names for lawyers in the US and England. Always wondered.

attorney - The term came to be used loosely for any kind of lawyer. Originally, however, it referred only to those lawyers who assisted the serjeants in the common law courts. Attorneys were eliminated when the old court system was abolished in 1873, and their functions were taken over by solicitors.
(p.263)

Laurele wrote:
"Animal crackers and cocoa to drink --
That is the finest of suppers I think;"

Or, for another take on cocoa:

FEAST on wine or fast on water,
And your honour shall stand sure,
God Almighty's son and daughter
He the valiant, she the pure ;
If an angel out of heaven
Brings you other things to drink,
Thank him for his kind attentions,
Go and pour them down the sink.

Tea is like the East he grows in,
A great yellow Mandarin
With urbanity of manner
And unconsciousness of sin ;
All the women, like a harem,
At his pig-tail troop along ;
And, like all the East he grows in,
He is Poison when he's strong.

Tea, although an Oriental,
Is a gentleman at least ;
Cocoa is a cad and coward,
Cocoa is a vulgar beast,
Cocoa is a dull, disloyal,
Lying, crawling cad and clown,
And may very well be grateful
To the fool that takes him down.

As for all the windy waters,
They were rained like tempests down
When good drink had been dishonoured
By the tipplers of the town ;
When red wine had brought red ruin
And the death-dance of our times,
Heaven sent us Soda Water
As a torment for our crimes.

G.K. Chesterton, from The Flying Inn

Everyman wrote: "Susanna wrote: "Susanna wrote: "Lemon merangue. Homemade."

And, alas, all gone. But it was delicious!"

And here I thought you were a friend. Pah!
"

I only had a very small slice, actually. It had to serve nine!

Andrea wrote: "I think of digestive biscuits as something like graham crackers. Is that close? And when Christopher Robin had "animal crackers and cocoa to drink" was he actually eating the kind of fairly hard ..."

It was actually Christopher Morley, but Christopher Robin probably enjoyed them, too. They were probably hard animal crackers so they wouldn't get all messed up when he dunked them in the cocoa.
******************
Animal Crackers
by Christopher Morley

Animal crackers and cocoa to drink --
That is the finest of suppers I think;
When I'm grown up and can have what I please
I think I shall always insist upon these.
What do YOU choose when you're offered a treat?
When Mother says, "What would you like best to eat?"
Is it waffles and syrup, or cinnamon toast?
It's cocoa and animals that I love most!

The kitchen's the cosiest place that I know;
The kettle is singing, the stove is aglow,
And there in the twilight, how jolly to see
The cocoa and animals waiting for me.

Daddy and Mother dine later in state,
With Mary to cook for them, Susan to wait;
But they don't have nearly as much fun as I
Who eat in the kitchen with Nurse standing by;
And Daddy once said, he would like to be me
Having cocoa and animals once more for tea!

Susanna wrote: "Susanna wrote: "Lemon merangue. Homemade."

And, alas, all gone. But it was delicious!"

And here I thought you were a friend. Pah!

Digestive biscuits are kind of sweet/salty oatmeal and wheat flour and kind of the texture of shortbread but not really. Infinitely better than the graham cracker! But probably similar in provenance. I didn't know Christopher Robin had animal crackers and cocoa. Is that in a story or a poem?

I think of digestive biscuits as something like graham crackers. Is that close? And when Christopher Robin had "animal crackers and cocoa to drink" was he actually eating the kind of fairly hard type we eat in the U.S. or was it more of a soft cookie animal shaped? (I've just always wondered).

Susanna wrote: "Lemon merangue. Homemade."

And, alas, all gone. But it was delicious!

Everyman wrote: "Susanna wrote: "Lemon merangue. Homemade."

My favorite. (Well, tied with chocolate meringue). I'm on my way double quick time!

Actually, the way the wind is blowing out here, all I have to d..."

Leave a piece for the wee lassie from Scotland!!!!

assizes - (pronounced with emphasis on the second syllable) - In areas outside London, justice was generally dispensed by justices of the peace at the petty or quarter sessions. Civil and criminal cases that were too tricky for them or - like capital cases - too serious, were handled by circuit-riding judges from the superior common law courts in London of Common Pleas, King's Bench and the Exchequer after they had finished their regular terms. These sessions, supposed to be held twice a year, were the assizes. They were occasions of considerable ceremony. The judges upon arriving in an assizes town were met by the high sheriff, a special assizes sermon was preached and a great banquet was given for the local notables, the actual work of judging beginning on the succeeding day.
(p.262-3)

assemblies - Assemblies were large-scale evening gatherings for the quality popular in the early part of the century, the most famous being Almack's in London. For a ten-guinea subscription, one got twelve weeks of a ball and supper each week, a highly prestigious event initially with top members of the aristocracy attending and tickets almost impossible to get.
(p.262)

Susanna wrote: "Lemon merangue. Homemade."

My favorite. (Well, tied with chocolate meringue). I'm on my way double quick time!

Actually, the way the wind is blowing out here, all I have to do is hold out an umbrella and hang on, and I'll be there before this post reaches you!

Lemon merangue. Homemade.

Er,what kind of Pie?And have you any extrathick Double Cream?As you can tell I am a Full Fat girl....
When I eat good food I don't want the tasteless option...LOL

We're having company for dinner, so you'll have to wait! (And so will I, alas.)

Susanna wrote: "And there's a pie in the kitchen!"

I'm on my way.

And there's a pie in the kitchen!

Laurele wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "A digestive is your basic English tea biscuit. It is round and firm and stacks like a cracker, but a little thicker. Here's a pretty good description: http://bakingforbritain.blog..."

Now you are making me hungry....
And not for healthy food!!!!!
I love the fully coated ones...Yummmy!!!

Elizabeth wrote: "A digestive is your basic English tea biscuit. It is round and firm and stacks like a cracker, but a little thicker. Here's a pretty good description: http://bakingforbritain.blogspot.com/2008/04/d..."

Ooooh! I could go for a chocolate-coated one right now.

Elizabeth wrote: "A digestive is your basic English tea biscuit. It is round and firm and stacks like a cracker, but a little thicker. Here's a pretty good description: http://bakingforbritain.blogspot.com/2008/04/d..."

I have always thought a digestive is somewhat coarser and of looser texture than an ordinary biscuit.

A digestive is your basic English tea biscuit. It is round and firm and stacks like a cracker, but a little thicker. Here's a pretty good description: http://bakingforbritain.blogspot.com/200...

Starling wrote: "If arrowroot biscuits are what I think they are - basically teething biscuits - they taste like cookies."

A biscuit in the UK is a cookie or cracker in the U.S. Does anyone know what a digestive biscuit is? I come across the term most often in books by Miss Read.

Susanna, that was what I originally thought when I heard the word "arrowroot". Basically a milk pudding thickener so you can make it without eggs.

We keep arrowroot in the spice rack, and use it sometimes as a thickener. Don't think we've ever made arrowroot biscuits!

Paula wrote: "Was it when you were sick or just as part of your regular (albeit enforced) diet? And I have to ask... how did they taste?"

I really don't remember when. They tasted like not very sweet cookies or biscuits, best I recall.

If arrowroot biscuits are what I think they are - basically teething biscuits - they taste like cookies.

Everyman wrote: "I don't know for sure, but my mother fed us kids arrowroot biscuits by the ton when we were very young, so I'm guessing she thought they were good for us...."

Was it when you were sick or just as part of your regular (albeit enforced) diet? And I have to ask... how did they taste?

articled - Legal documents then (and now) are often divided into sections marked "Article 1," "Article 2," etc. (They are parts of the document that join together - the root is the same as that of "articulation" in the sense of joining together bones.) When a child was apprenticed to a master, he signed an indenture that was often broken up into such articles so that "to article" someone came to mean binding him to be an apprentice.
(p.262)

Ah! Mary Poppins! I must have read that book several times when I was younger, so that must have been one of the literary connections I couldn't properly recall!

Mary Poppins was always feeding the twins arrowroot biscuits.