Perhaps a little early, but some of us seem to be 'chomping at the bit' to start the WiW discussion. This section is for the first three chapters, which include the narratives of Sir Walter Hartright, Vincent Gilmore, and the first by Marian Halcombe.

Enjoy! :)

*PLEASE NOTE: THE BELOW WILL INCLUDE SPOILERS!**

I have to admit, I only on page 60 of my 500 page Wordsworth classic edition, but am already hooked! I was almost late for work today because I couldn't put it down.

I think it's interesting how we are so quickly introduced to anther duo of females; one dark and portrayed as intelligent, assertive and down-to-earth, the other as fair, beautiful and with her head in the clouds. I feel like I've met these characters before. I also really like Marian Halcombe; described as surprisingly ugly, I think she is my favorite thus far. Perhaps it's just my way of always rooting for the underdog. And how do you not love little Pesca?

I just finished this section of the book and feel like the worst is going to happen or an impending doom for at least 1 of the characters.

At first I was unsure as to how I would handle the switching narrative, but it seems to have lent itself to be almost a tool to the mysteries and evolution of the story. Somewhat like a film that flows from past to present then past but weaves a more comprehensive picture then starting from beginning to end in a straight line.

Did Collins conceive of the story in its entirety from start to finish before he wrote it out or was it built up over time? The beginning has so many hints that quite possibly he laid it all out before hand, like a storyboard.

ah… and now I can ask my question. Why did he make Marian to be "ugly" or rather point that out in the story? Is there a reason to Collins or was he simply playing at perspectives rather then truth?

Scott wrote: "ah… and now I can ask my question. Why did he make Marian to be "ugly" or rather point that out in the story? Is there a reason to Collins or was he simply playing at perspectives rather then truth?..."

I was a bit stunned to have her portrayed as having an ugly face yet statuesque body. It has become one of my more memorable quotes: "The lady was ugly!" It made me feel for her right away, and removed her from being a possible love interest for young Sir Walter (sadly). It's a good question though - perspective v. truth. Perhaps I'll know more when I get to further narratives.

I have not yet gotten that far into this book but so far I am already really enjoying it. The prose is just wonderful and quite engaging I think. And the concept of it being told from various different perspectives I think could prove to be most interesting. I cannot wait to read more.

I love the touch of mystery which is suggested within the book, and I have had a long time fascination with the topic of madness in women during this period of time. Many books and stories deal with the concept. The way in which women could be rendered so helpless and how they could be declared mad just for being different, not behaving how they should, or simply because they were an inconvenience to male guardians, or because a man stood some gain in having a woman put away.

I found the idea of Marian being scene as ugly as quite interesting and rather unexpected. Perhaps it is a suggestion that things are not always quite what they seem, as her face did not match her body. Or perhaps it is a statement about women. Marian in an intellectual and rational woman, she speaks frankly and has the attributes that more resemble a man. Perhaps her face looks the way it does because of her masculine personality.

While her sister Laura is the stereotypical beauty, she is a "prize" lovely to look at but flighty, and given to fits of nerves, delicate, needs to be protected.

Paula wrote: "Scott wrote: "ah… and now I can ask my question. Why did he make Marian to be "ugly" or rather point that out in the story? Is there a reason to Collins or was he simply playing at perspectives rat..."

I think he's commenting on the fallacy of judging people by the way they look. Also, comments to the edition I'm reading say that he was living with two women at the same time. Each sister looked like one of his significant others. My notes also said he got lots of letters asking for Marion's real name and address so the fans could marry her.

I have just finished Walter's section. I did not forget that the sections were written by different people, nevetheless I felt a sense of loss, knowing that Walter and I had to leave and we weren't going to find out what happens next. I LOVE when authors do that to me.

One more thing: Wilkie's introduction to the 1860 edition says he was writing for Dickens' periodical, and so was forced to write his story in sections that had people wanting to come back for more. He said this new method of writing was, for him, terrific training with regard to his story-telling skills. I agree.

There's a story that Collins got the idea for this novel after meeting an actual woman in white that he ran into one evening by accident, while hanging out with Charles Dickens and John Everett Millais. Supposedly, they saw her burst out of a spooky house into the street; Collins ran after her and she claimed she'd been held hostage by a mesmerist. I don't know why, but the idea of those three guys hanging out on a street when suddenly a random woman escapes from a mesmerist totally cracks me up.

That is quite the interesting story. And that would make a rather currious occurance. Sometimes it can be interesting to know the stories behind a story.

Darcy wrote: "There's a story that Collins got the idea for this novel after meeting an actual woman in white that he ran into one evening by accident, while hanging out with Charles Dickens and John Everett Millais..."

Wow - what a group of friends. Like the literary equivalent of the Traveling Wilburys, just hanging out, chatting, living life. How cool... I wonder if they had a discussion about who would get to include the event with the woman in a novel...

Darcy wrote: "There's a story that Collins got the idea for this novel after meeting an actual woman in white that he ran into one evening by accident, while hanging out with Charles Dickens and John Everett Mil..."
I think? that Collins actually ended up marrying that woman...I'm not 100% sure on that, but that sticks out in my mind anyway.

I started reading it today. My copy is pretty old and dog-eared, and the font is miniscule. But I'm enjoying the novel itself very much so far. It's got a readable quality about it, which a lot of the classics don't have.

I think Professor Pesca is a fabulous character! I hope his appearance shan't be a fleeting one.

Yes, the novel is very readable. So far there isn't really anything very teadius of difficult about it. Pesca is quite amusing.

Two things: Walter is not a "sir," he's a "mr." And is anybody else nuts about the dog who hates the new husband? The way Collins has the dog act around the husband is just terrific. And yes, I find Pesca fascinating.

Are we allowed to speculate without being spoilers? For a bit I was wondering if Marian turns out to be one of the bad guys. I've decided she probably isn't, but I honestly don't know.

Barbara wrote: "Walter is not a "sir," he's a "mr." ..."

You know, I wondered about this, albeit fleetingly, when I first picked up the book. I posted the above using the chapter headings, and in my version the name for the narrative is listed as "Sir Walter Hartright." Since I later discovered he is just a humble drawing-master, I thought perhaps something would happen by the end to warrant the title.

Darcy wrote: "There's a story that Collins got the idea for this novel after meeting an actual woman in white that he ran into one evening by accident, while hanging out with Charles Dickens and John Everett Mil..."

Interesting story! Where did you read this? Would like to know more about it.

Paula wrote: "Darcy wrote: "There's a story that Collins got the idea for this novel after meeting an actual woman in white that he ran into one evening by accident, while hanging out with Charles Dickens and Jo..."

ha.. :-) that is true.. I wonder if they fought over who would get the first take at it.

Barbara wrote: "Paula wrote: "Scott wrote: "ah… and now I can ask my question. Why did he make Marian to be "ugly" or rather point that out in the story? Is there a reason to Collins or was he simply playing at pe..."

maybe he is pointing out to the reader at the beginning that looks are deceiving and that we should pay attention to other aspects of the characters.

What do you think is the significance behind the use of white in this story? Why is she the "Lady in White" Beyond just the explanations offered in the book for her chosen color is there some greater symbolism behind it?

Is the use of white, meant to enhance the mystery, by giving the mysterious, stranger character a ghostly appetence, particularly as she spends her time haunting around the grave in the cemetery.

Does the color white suggest her seeming child-like innocence in the way in which others perceive her, or the purity of her character? Is she in fact an angel in her own way, attempting acting as a guardian over the Fairlie family?

Another thing, I wondered at the way in which Ann and Miss Fairlie are treated in such difference ways and looked upon difference by others, when it seems to me, that their looks are not the only thing they have in common.

Ann is pitied for her child like mind, and seen as being simple, and in able to look after herself, patronized and humored, at least by some. But I find that Miss Fairlie as much the same constitution as Ann with her nervous disorder, the fact that her sister has to protect her from anything that might be upsetting. Miss Fairlie seems she would just be as incompetent to look after herself and just as flighty and child-like. Yet she has more respectability or legitimacy in the way she is treated by others.

Is it the social difference between them?

Silver wrote: "What do you think is the significance behind the use of white in this story? Why is she the "Lady in White" Beyond just the explanations offered in the book for her chosen color is there some great..."
I think that the difference in the way they are treated is what makes the story scary. The two girls are essentially the same, yet Ann was locked up in an insane asylum. I'm anxious to find out what Ann's mother's involvement was.

Gosh, much seems to have happened in just three chapters! I'll have to get a move on with this book (I swear there are about 800 words a page on my edition though).

The story was initially reported by Millais' son (in a biography about his father), who does in fact claim that Collins went on to have a relationship with the woman, but I don't remember if it was supposed to be Caroline Graves or Martha Rudd. Heather, do you remember which it was? Honestly, I don't actually think it is true, but it still makes me laugh. Ha! Paula, now I can't stop thinking of them as the Traveling Wilburys. They must have been quite the trio.

Also, am I the only one who grew up thinking that group was "The Traveling Wheelbarrows"?

I dont know yet, but I haven't started the book yet. But that question makes me want to start it now. :) Silver.

I think she was Caroline. I am also not sure how true the story is. As I recall, it (both how they met and her position in society) kept changing over time. It is interesting, though!

I just finished the narrative of Mr.Hartright. I have to say, for some reason I cannot quite accept or "believe" in Miss Fairlie's returning Mr. Harthright's feelings, and by this I do not mean to suggest that I think Miss Fairlie is being dishonest,I think she is perfectly sincere, it is the author Wilkie Collin's that I question, he did not really make me believe in her love. It just did not feel very realistic to me, it seemed like it was just convenient to have her return Mr. Hartright's feelings.

I can see his falling in love with her, but her feeling the same, just seemed a bit forced. Perhaps this is only because we never get to see the development of her feelings or hear directly of her thoughts as we do with him, and we are only told second hand what she feels, that makes her own feelings less believable.

But what is given of her personality, it is just hard for me to picture in my mind her falling in love with him.

Yeah, I agree with you, Silver. Marian has a much more accessible personality, I think, than Laura.

Wasn't it hilarious what Hartright remarks to himself on first seeing Miss Halcombe, like: She was dark... She was young... She was ugly!

(something along those lines)

I have JUST started, though I read the book about five years ago and do remember some (also, watched a terrible DVD of it with Tara Fitzgerald, don't ever watch it, it is so unfaithful to the spirit of the book) so I can comment a little:

Marian being ugly. At first I thought -- how novel. A heroine who is ugly. (As you move along, you'll see why I consider her the heroine.) How original and different if you will. A part of me still thinks that. And yet I wonder -- is there something in the Victorian way of thinking that felt that if a woman was strong minded, intellectual, and assertive, she couldn't possibly be beautiful? That those attributes belonged only to what they called "bluestockings" -- intellectual spinsters traditionally believed to be plain because why else would a woman turn to intellectual pursuits than because she wasn't eligible to be admired by men???

As far as wearing white -- there is an "otherworldly", ghostly quality about the woman in white that calls for her to be swathed in white colors. Besides, on a more practical writerly level, she waylays Walter as he's walking from the station to the estate, whatever it's called, and how would she stand out physically from all that dark countryside if she wasn't wearing white? Much more dramatic.

And of course, the aliteration factor had to be in there somewhere. The WOMAN in WHITE has a nice sound to it.

Silver wrote: "What do you think is the significance behind the use of white in this story? Why is she the "Lady in White" Beyond just the explanations offered in the book for her chosen color is there some great..."

I think I agree with Heidi - The Woman In White falls under the genre of sensation novels - so the ghostly white atire fits with the story - the reader first of all questions if she is real or a ghost?.

Particularly when you look at where Walter Hartright first comes across Anne Catherick - at the lonely crossroads just outside the city (resting place for witches & suicides and traditional place for the staking of vampires!). The scene takes place in the dead of night and her silent gesture of reaching out and touching Mr Hartright together with her white clothes conjures up the image of a ghost.

In addition - I think white could also have moral significance. White is the trditional symbol of innocence and purity, which lends truth to what Anne is saying about her unfortunate circumstances in the first scenes and sets up a way for us to look at events later in the book. A reader will therefore have an allegorical indicator as to 'good' and 'evil' within the narrative.

Ally

Ally wrote: "Silver wrote: "What do you think is the significance behind the use of white in this story? Why is she the "Lady in White" Beyond just the explanations offered in the book for her chosen color is t..."

Yes! I agree with that last part as well. I was discussing this with my daughter and husband at dinner last night and my daughter too commented on the purity element of white. She commented, as you do, that it is a good way for the reader to know she is on the side of the angels.

Scott wrote: "ah… and now I can ask my question. Why did he make Marian to be "ugly" or rather point that out in the story? Is there a reason to Collins or was he simply playing at perspectives rather then truth?..."

This is largely because of the conventions of the genre Collins was writing in and at the same time trying to subvert. In Gothic or Sentimental fiction, 'good' and 'evil' were easily distinguished and often marked out in physical terms. e.g. the heroine of a Gothic novel, according to generic convention, would be emblematic of virtue, typically young, beautiful, innocent, powerless, a victim of oppression and in danger from some of the figures in the plot. This stereotyping of character feeds into conventional views of women in victorian times and accepted behaviours of women and men within the home and wider society.

If Collins wants to use a woman as a more 'active' type of heroine, he needs to distinguish her from the passive 'Laura Fairly' type in need of rescue. Making her ugly is one such distinction that throws the reader into confusion (necessary for the suspense and thrill of a ghostly Gothic tale).

In addition, given that this is a sensation novel, there are some melodramatic moments in the scene when Walter first meets Marian - "She left the window - and I said to myself. The lady is dark. She moved forward a few steps - and I said to myself, The lady is young. She approached nearer - and I said to myself (with a sense of surprise which words fail me to express), The lady is ugly!" - the choice of words and short sentence structure builds tension and suspense but it ends in anti-climax!

In the end - Marian is not easily classified as a 'type' so her contrasts and ambiguities allow Collins to shape her into the type of heroine he wants for his novel and as readers we can never be entirely sure if she is 'good' or 'evil' until well into the story adding to the impact of the novel and our desire to read on.

Darcy wrote: "There's a story that Collins got the idea for this novel after meeting an actual woman in white that he ran into one evening by accident, while hanging out with Charles Dickens and John Everett Mil..."

I heard that story too - that the idea for The Woman in White came from a true story. It was supposedly a rumor started by Millais and was about the dramatic appearance of Caroline Graves into Collins' life (she later became his mistress - I'm not sure that Collins ever actually married???).

Another story, put about by collins himself, was that the idea for the Woman in White came to him when he was in Paris and came across some old volumes of records of French crimes, which he said gave him many of his best plots. - Some research was done into this claim and an actual legal case was found relating to a Madame Douhault.

Its interesting stuff whichever rumor(s) turn out to be true or partially true!

Ally

Ally - feeding off your discussion of 'white' as a symbol of purity and alignment with angels, what do you make of the scene near Limmeridge where Walter finds Anne wearing a dark cloak and bonnet, which cover up the white dress? It seems like much could be made of this; has someone forced evil upon her? has society turned her into something oppressive and/or violent? has someone tainted her purity by 'shackling' her with the dark cloak?

Or... is she just trying to keep warm and the dark colors were more common?

Well in the book she was asked to where the cloak by her friends at the Todd form because they thought it was peculiar her wearing white all of the time, and worried of what other people would think if they saw her.

Though I did think it curious how other people thought it so strange for a woman to wear white, maybe it was just not a typical common color. Because even when Walter first saw her, he did not know than she wore white all the time but still was struck by it.

But being forced to be cloaked could be symbolic perhaps of society trying to conform her to their ways to what they think of as being "normal" and not accepting her as she is. She is shackled by the rules of society and the current ideas of normality, and forced to hide her true self from the world.

White could signify here the innocence and purity of Anne as compared with the Count or other characters.

Ally wrote: "Scott wrote: "ah… and now I can ask my question. Why did he make Marian to be "ugly" or rather point that out in the story? Is there a reason to Collins or was he simply playing at perspectives rat..."

Your reply is interesting. I think in your explanation is the answer to why white was used, not just from running across a woman in a white dress mysteriously, but also the contrast of good and evil a color can give. Also in the story I wondered right away at the beginning why she was wearing just white all the time.. so it built a suspense in a way of wanting to know why and how that related to the story.

Collins seems to put alot of 'mysteries' within the plot that we want to know or find out about as we go. it almost rushes us through the story. In fact, I almost felt i was rushed through the entire book by my wish to know the answers.

I ran across this phrase in my research on Collins.. "He also wrote penetratingly on the plight of women and on the social and domestic issues of his time."

So I would thing he may have tried to set a precedent with different types of women within the novel. The contrast of Marian to her sister and how we give up on the looks and look to her intellect gives us a heroine of a different type for sure.

I have a question as we near the end of the book discussion, but i will hold onto it for now. Hopefully I will remember it when we get there.

Paula wrote: "Ally - feeding off your discussion of 'white' as a symbol of purity and alignment with angels, what do you make of the scene near Limmeridge where Walter finds Anne wearing a dark cloak and bonnet,..."

It does seems to refer symbolically to a sort of shackle that is put on her from outside. Events she cannot control which change and move her life in a certain direction. Maybe referal to 'dark' forces at work, something like that?

Scott wrote: "The contrast of Marian to her sister and how we give up on the looks and look to her intellect gives us a heroine of a different type for sure. ..."

I have a question about this - I'm going to post it in the "WiW - Finished" section, though...

Is it demeaning in a way to have Marian tell her story in the form of her diary entries? In spite of her intellect, and her rationality, and the traits of her personality that are seen as "masculine" within the book, when she is given her own voice within the book it comes in the form of a diary, something of which is stereotypically feminine.

Also what do you think of Marian's seeming asexuality? She states the fact that the same traits which caused her to admire and respect Mr. Harthright, were the reasons her sister fell in love with him. Yet it seems that Marian had a closer and more intimate relationship with Mr. Harthright than her sister did, and she is found of him, but she herself expresses no feeling toward him beyond friendly regard. She seems almost in capable of falling in love.

Is this because she is aware of her "unfortunate" appearance and does not expect any man to love her? Or does the fact that her reason remains uncorrupted by personal feelings of love and emotion make her a more reliable narrator?

Those are interesting questions, Silver. I didn't think about this as deeply as you did; I thought it was interesting that there is no mention made of Marian and a love interest. I thought there could be something w/ Mr. Gilmore, the lawyer, as he described Marian a bit differently than Walter described her. The lawyer just says "Mrs Fairlie had dark eyes and hair and her elder daughter, Miss Halcombe, strongly reminds me of her."

I believe he makes other references to Marian that are positive and almost admiring. Is he too old for her? Will anything come of it? Am I just determined to pair people off in novels?

Yes, it is true Mr. Gismore does her different than Walter did, he was more favorable in his speaking of her. I am not quite sure how old he is suppose to be.

I would guess, based on what you learn in the book, that Mr. Gilmore is at retirement age, especially since i think they say he has been the family lawywer for 20 or 30 years. If he started in 20's it would make him 40's or 50's.

I think that Sir Glyde is also suppose to be in his 40's, isn't somewhere around 45 or something? If so than if Miss Fairlie can marry him, Mr. Gilmore would not be too old for Marian

Silver wrote: "Is it demeaning in a way to have Marian tell her story in the form of her diary entries? In spite of her intellect, and her rationality, and the traits of her personality that are seen as "masculin..."

I think that Collins had to include stereotypical things within the book as he had constant readers that were maybe still wishing to read something they could somewhat relate to in that particular period of time.

Silver wrote: "Is it demeaning in a way to have Marian tell her story in the form of her diary entries? In spite of her intellect, and her rationality, and the traits of her personality that are seen as "masculin..."

Maybe she felt her appearence and way of being was not something Harthright would want? Then again, it did so far lend me to give more credit to Marian's focus on the mystery and problems at hand. As if more of her energy was pointed in that direction instead of Mr. Harthright.

Paula wrote: "Those are interesting questions, Silver. I didn't think about this as deeply as you did; I thought it was interesting that there is no mention made of Marian and a love interest. I thought there co..."

I think you are trying to marry people off in the book. ;-) I think Marian would be more interested in someone more intellectually stimulating then the lawyer, no?

Scott wrote: "Paula wrote: "Those are interesting questions, Silver. I didn't think about this as deeply as you did; I thought it was interesting that there is no mention made of Marian and a love interest. I th..."

Yes, that would definitely be my take, also. Since I read the book once (I'm re-reading it for this discussion) I can say that my feeling is that Marian would need someone who would be more on her level in terms of intellectual conversation and intense wit. Don't want to say anymore because of spoilers.

Scott wrote: "I think you are trying to marry people off in the book. ;-) I think Marian would be more interested in someone more intellectually stimulating the the lawyer, no? ..."

The first statement made me laugh out loud. I love that you responded like that :)

You're right, perhaps more intellectual, and someone with more.... physical attributes? She seems to appreciate the youth and handsomeness (is that a word?) of Hartright.