A Good idea?

I may be a bit biased, but my childhood sucked, and not only because I was home schooled.

Seams like maybe the people (who went to college for teaching credentials would be better at teaching) then the children's well-meaning parents.

It depends on the family and the situations.

I'm home schooled and I'm graduating two years early, at sixteen. My parents both have Masters degrees.

I was mainly pulled out for medical reasons.

It truly varies from case to case.

You learn a lot as a kid in school. You learn how to socialize with kids your age, not just adults. So I think that if someone really wants to home school their kids, at least wait til after elementary school.

Idk. I think it might just be best to send them to good schools.

If done well, homeschooling is fine by me. When parents choose to do it in order to shelter their children from the real world and don't have the knowledge necessary to properly educate them, then I have a problem with it. And the parents who do it out of a fear of knowledge instead of a love of knowledge make me want to punch things.

However, J, you can learn those things even if you're home schooled. I have because of church, home school co-op groups, 4-H groups, sports, etcetera. There are ways for kids to become more socialized with their own age group than just school.

Church, BAH. What about the people who don't go to church? Take that out, and I bet you wipe out half your friends.

"When parents choose to do it in order to shelter their children from the real world and don't have the knowledge necessary to properly educate them"


Basically what my parents are like even now. They are fundamental christian, although, they wouldn't know it.

My parents think that all christians believe in " the 6-day creation" literal translation of Genesis. They think that all christians believe that evolution is a lie thought up by satan to fool all the scientists.


While I was growing up, we had a "Friday School" thing we did. We were involved with a support group for home-schooled kids.

I had a few friends that I saw a few times a year and wrote letters to.
My best friend was a girl I wrote to every week. I even got to go over to her house once!

So, I never met someone that wasn't a christian. I grew up before chat rooms btw. I was a very intolerant, basically a stupid bigot. And I was reading at post high school level at 5th grade. I had access to the internet at 18.

"My parents think that all christians believe in " the 6-day creation" literal translation of Genesis. They think that all christians believe that evolution is a lie thought up by satan to fool all the scientists. "

All Christian that take their book seriously do.

"I had a few friends that I saw a few times a year and wrote letters to.
My best friend was a girl I wrote to every week. I even got to go over to her house once! "

That sounds horrible, no offense.

J wrote: "Church, BAH. What about the people who don't go to church? Take that out, and I bet you wipe out half your friends."

What's your point?
I was merely saying that there are ways OTHER than school to become socialized with kids your own age, and I was right, wasn't I? Who cares if half of my friends are of my religion? Does that make them any less my friends?

Every person I've known (in the analog world) who was home schooled has been basically an idiot. They were home-schooled by conservative Christian parents who wanted to shelter them from "dangerous" secular knowledge and impose their own worldview on their children. The kids ended up being ignorant and sheltered, with very limited worldviews. I think this is despicable.

Of course I'm sure there are plenty of intelligent, reasonable, socially-adept people who are home-schooled, and there seem to be some on this board. On the whole, though, my personal experiences with home-schooled people (and I realize my personal experiences are no substitute for empirical data) have not been positive.

Of course, Dan, this is possible. But it depends on the individual and their circumstances, doesn't it?

My point is that being surrounded by people who only subscribe to one thought process is unenlightening. If you only talk to people who agree with you, you are missing out.

It took my almost ten years to unravel all the lies my parents told me. It's not too late Jayda!

Nicole wrote: ""When parents choose to do it in order to shelter their children from the real world and don't have the knowledge necessary to properly educate them"


Basically what my parents are like even now. ..."

That's exactly what I was talking about when I said people who homeschool out of a fear of knowledge instead of a love of it. Fear, basically, of "evil secular knowledge" that might make their precious snowflake doubt the lie they've been telling them about a 6000 year old earth. The only explanation I can come up with for that kind of attitude is just a flat out fear of knowledge. They don't want their children to be educated, not really. Just indoctrinated. That's what church is for, not school.

Nicole wrote: "My point is that being surrounded by people who only subscribe to one thought process is unenlightening. If you only talk to people who agree with you, you are missing out.

It took my almost ten ..."

So you're making the assumption that my parents are lying to me? That's how I understood what I read :)

"So you're making the assumption that my parents are lying to me? That's how I understood what I read :) "

http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/09/04/th...

Some parents don't even have the education to teach 1st grade grammar. This sort of thing can't be effectively regulated.

A couple of articles and studies done on home school kids.

Academic site:
http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/20...

Social site:
http://school.familyeducation.com/home-s...


First off, not all home school parents are conservatives, or Christians. Second, there are usually certain types of books you have to buy in order to teach (by state standards, etcetera), and in order to graduate (depending on how you're graduating. ie. GED, Charter School, etcetera) you have to study the same things you would in a regular school.

My parents have Masters degrees. Not all parents do, but mine do. Are you still implying that they're lying to me?

Not knowingly, but it's entirely possible.

Your parents aren't the ultimate sources of knowledge, nor are they perfect. You can't take everything they say as true.

They don't teach me much anymore. I teach myself, out of the books that I have, that we buy from bookstores. GED prep books. Do those lie to me? Because they're the things the mainly teach me.

Depends on who made the books.

Jayda wrote: "My parents have Masters degrees. Not all parents do, but mine do. Are you still implying that they're lying to me? "

A Masters in Tudor-era literature with an emphasis on Shakespeare wouldn't do you much good if you're teaching tenth grade microbiology.

And I fail to see how a Masters in anything would prevent your parents from lying to you. I'd certainly hope that your parents are honest with you, though.

"So you're making the assumption that my parents are lying to me? That's how I understood what I read :) "

I can only decide for myself. My parents taught me a lot of things that I have since discovered are not true. Since I have been reading other threads it seams to me that you believe in intelligent design, which is science to most home-schoolers.

Jayda- Aren't you in college? Just a little confused, you graduated, but are also studying for a GED?

What Masters do your parents hold?

Lauren wrote: "Depends on who made the books. "

... They sell them in bookstores. They're standard GED prep books. Those GED approved prep books are lying to me? How interesting.

Nicole wrote: ""So you're making the assumption that my parents are lying to me? That's how I understood what I read :) "

I can only decide for myself. My parents taught me a lot of things that I have since disc..."

I study science that is taught in public school. Evolution and all.

I'm not in college yet. I'm graduating early next year since I haven't finished the prep books yet.

My mom holds a Bachelors is in Business Administration and Masters is in Project Managament and my dad holds a Masters in Network and Communications Management.

Of course, Dan, this is possible. But it depends on the individual and their circumstances, doesn't it?

Sure, anything's possible, but I'm just recounting my experiences. They haven't been positive, and I tend to think of home schooling as a tool for parents to inoculate their children against some aspect of reality of which they disapprove. I do not see what the benefit of home schooling is in most situations.

Also, schools have lots of wonderful things like microscopes and gymnasiums and grand pianos and swimming pools and centrifuges, as well as a faculty full of teachers, each of whom is an expert on a different subject. Sure, I can imagine a scenario where enterprising and tenacious parents can bend over backwards to provide their children with access to everything that a school has to offer, but I have never seen this actually happen, and I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would choose to do things that way.

"I study science that is taught in public school. Evolution and all. "

But you don't believe it. Obviously it's not being taught right.

"My mom holds a Bachelors is in Business Administration and Masters is in Project Managament and my dad holds a Masters in Network and Communications Management."

Neither of them would help for most school subjects.

"Also, schools have lots of wonderful things like microscopes and gymnasiums and grand pianos and swimming pools and centrifuges, as well as a faculty full of teachers, each of whom is an expert on a different subject. Sure, I can imagine a scenario where enterprising and tenacious parents can bend over backwards to provide their children with access to everything that a school has to offer, but I have never seen this actually happen, and I can't for the life of me imagine why anyone would choose to do things that way."

Not only multiple science labs, but also at least 4 foreign language experts, photography chemicals and dark room, ceramics and a kiln, audio/visual lab, school newspaper, art club, all the school sports with access to everything you need, working at the daycare as a class, school plays, concerts, talent shows, robotics teams, marching band, going to football games, and most importantly, being away from parents for 8 hours a day.

I suppose I should contribute a tiny bit in the defense of home schooling, as I actually see home schooled students come through Duke and my (very difficult) classes.

Home schooling may well occur as Dan suggests because the parents are whack job BICCs who read Chick Tracts like these:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1051...

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1052...

(I've become quite addicted to Chick Tracts, BTW. There is a whole list of links on their wikipedia page here, and I think they should be mandatory reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_tract

especially for non-BICC theists of all flavors. They end up being their own best satire, except that they are utterly serious to a large group of people that are, IMO, suffering from a sort of collective, dangerous, insanity. But I digress...:-)

But I don't see a whole lot of these students -- only one or two that I can recall, because they only rarely get to where they can get into Duke for a variety of reasons. The few that I have seen ultimately end up doing just fine -- if they learn enough to get in, they learn enough to start thinking for themselves, and Duke teaches critical thinking in almost every class you could take. It's difficult to get through four years with your blinders still in place.

Most of the home schoolers, though, are that way because of dissatisfaction with the local school system. Living in a school system that mostly sucks, I've given serious thought to home schooling my kids simply because high schools do things like take an entire year to teach algebra. No wonder kids get bored -- one can learn all the algebra (per se) one needs to know in a couple or three weeks; everything else one can learn in the context of learning something else useful (like calculus). Some of my best students have been home schooled by parents who simply set high hurdles for their kids and then turned the kids loose to teach themselves, with benchmarks and a certain amount of supervision to ensure that the kids don't redirect into WoW.

In my own experience, teaching is impossible anyway. Only learning works, where learning is an active process on the part of the student which only obtains limited benefit from the teacher's actions, not a process that is teacher active, student passive. Home schooling for a young person that is intelligent and reasonably self-actualized simply forces them to take responsibility and ownership for their own education at a younger age than college.

So it doesn't really matter what Jayda's parents do or don't do in her pursuit of education. What matters is the state of Jayda's mind. If she is self-actualized, if she loves to learn, if she can approach learning aware of her own prejudices and biases and suspend them or overcome them, reserving judgement until she gains a reasonably full understanding of the interlocking relationships between EVERYTHING she learns, and above all if she is capable of engaging in true critical thinking along the way, she'll do fine no matter what her parents "teach". What they teach may be limited to what they know; what she learns is not, especially not now where she can educate herself to an amazing extent reading both original sources and commentary without moving from her computer if she so wishes. The entire works of people like David Hume, Rene Descartes, John Locke, Isaac Newton, and more are available to her. She can learn algebra that has no silly barrier between the elementary and the complex from dozens of wonderful websites. She can learn physics from (among other places) my own websites. I don't know about chemistry -- that's the sort of thing where a lab is really important -- but she could probably take chemistry in summer school from a local high school and do fine.

The socialization thing I cannot comment on. Again, the students I've seen haven't been horribly socially compromised, turned into semi-autistic social retards or nerds by the process. They mix with and interact with other students almost indistinguishably, at least as far as I can tell. Students from very small schools are in the same boat. And one can always select a small college to match one's personal preferences if one so desires.

So home schooling can and often does work well. On the other hand, there is an extremist group that uses it not to teach, but to indoctrinate, to brainwash, to ensure that a child is not exposed to critical thinking that might cause them to question e.g. a theistic or political belief. In this case, it is not only ineffective, it is openly evil, teaching the child not reason but unreason. I'd make it as illegal as possible while still not eliminating the freedom to home school.

rgb

"I've given serious thought to home schooling my kids simply because high schools do things like take an entire year to teach algebra."

Or two years, as I'm in AlgebraII/Trig.

Lauren wrote: ""I've given serious thought to home schooling my kids simply because high schools do things like take an entire year to teach algebra."

Or two years, as I'm in AlgebraII/Trig. "

Weeks. Maybe even days. I usually end up re-teaching physics students everything they need to know in a matter of hours in my office (and then some -- there is some amazingly cool stuff in trig, but most of the crap they teach is not). Algebra 1, Algebra 2 -- Algebra is a matter of a day, plus a week or two of using it, studying it, playing with it.

I'm working on an online book, but it is relatively low priority, sorry. Physics first (even thought it IS key to learning the physics).

rgb

I am absolutely for home-schooling. For me, and for most of the people I know secondary school (high school in the USA) was the worst years of our lives, and primary school was no better. I never learned at school anyway, the only way I could/can learn anything is by teaching myself it on my own, or with maybe one or two other friends. Anyways, one can socialise in other ways besides school, like joining clubs, etc.

But yes, I agree, unless homeschooling is done properly, it is disastrous.

Lauren wrote: ""I study science that is taught in public school. Evolution and all. "

But you don't believe it. Obviously it's not being taught right.

"My mom holds a Bachelors is in Business Administration an..."

So everyone who doesn't believe in just evolution isn't being taught evolution correctly? What about all of the people IN schools that don't believe in it? And who ever said I don't believe in evolution?

Also, they had to take regular courses (statistics, economics, history, science, etcetera) with their main classes. My mom minored in American History, etcetera. Going to college does make it much easier to teach others at least the basics. But like I said, I teach myself from the books we get.

Also, you CAN get everything you get at a school, if you're home schooled. But some of those things aren't actually needed to be taught what you need to learn.

Ask Chan.

I agree that homeschooling works well, its just the matter of self-discipline, and encouragement. I surely couldn't do it when I tried. I failed miserably. But I know friends everywhere that are being homeschooled or have been homeschooled in the past and have liked it.

I also think that it could possible be the parents. Some parents teach their children, others have tutors, and others do it all on their own. I'm sure that I could have done it if I had had a tutor and college student come and just force me to do. I have to be in a school setting to me able to get anything done, and some people are like that. I have a drafting table that I use for drafting, drawing, homework and a clothes hamper; but it helps greatly!
~Sessy

"So everyone who doesn't believe in just evolution isn't being taught evolution correctly? What about all of the people IN schools that don't believe in it? And who ever said I don't believe in evolution? "

If you understand evolution fully, there is no logical reason to not believe in it. The kids being taught in school simply don't think about it, they learn but don't apply the consequences.

:"But some of those things aren't actually needed to be taught what you need to learn.
"

What people need to learn is subjective to what they want to do as well as a few standard things. No one needs an art room or a computer lab or laptops or a library, but consider the quality of education without them. No one needs a gym and tennis courts and a soccer field.

Lauren wrote: ""So everyone who doesn't believe in just evolution isn't being taught evolution correctly? What about all of the people IN schools that don't believe in it? And who ever said I don't believe in evo..."

I've taken it into account and thought about it fully. I was almost an atheist, remember? Again, who said I don't believe in evolution?

You just said that those who don't believe in it are being taught incorrectly. Now you're changing it to being the student's fault. Which is it?

They had to take the basics, even with what they had to learn for their minors and majors. It doesn't matter what you're taking, you still have to take certain basics.

Was I talking specifically about you?

"You just said that those who don't believe in it are being taught incorrectly. Now you're changing it to being the student's fault. Which is it? "

The fact that they aren't thinking about it properly is because is isn't being taught in that context. They teach, but no one ever says "btw, this proves Genesis wrong." No one's forcing them to consider.

And homeschoolers can get books for basics. But you can't get a book to teach what it's like to deal with 350 other kids in your grade, or a book on how to deal with bullies at recess or a book about the life in a school.

Lauren wrote: "Was I talking specifically about you?

"You just said that those who don't believe in it are being taught incorrectly. Now you're changing it to being the student's fault. Which is it? "

The fact ..."

I can guarantee that there's one person in your school that takes the exact same class as you, that is taught by the same teacher, that is taught the same way that doesn't believe in evolution. Speculation does matter, but even when one speculates it doesn't guarantee that they'll agree with you. I've done so, and I don't agree that evolution is the only way.

Just because you aren't learning how to deal with kids in your school (home school co-op can have the same benefits socially as school - I know a group that actually goes to two classes in school two times a week) it doesn't mean that they don't or can't learn how. Bullies aren't just in the classroom, especially nowadays.

Are you serious, Jayda? Being in an actual school for years is way, way, way different than being around a few other kids your age from time to time.

13 years of being in class for 8 hours 5 days a week for 10 months out of the year vs. Being in class for 2 hours 2 days a week for substantially less then 10 months out of the year for definitely less then 13 years.

Plus, the amount of people I meet at school could easily top 1,000 because we have more kids then that in just grades. Way more diversity.

Do amount of time spent in a classroom and the amount of kids in a school really matter, social-wise? I know about home school co-ops that are up in the hundreds, that do lessons more than just twice a week, that have sports teams and prom and marching band. A good majority of the things you can get in the classroom in a public school, you can also get outside of public school.

And most co-ops are 5th (sometimes 1st) grade to 12th grade.

Size shouldn't matter, because size varies from school to school, anyway.

The dynamics of a school are still different.

There really isn't a huge difference.

Honestly, how would you know?

Yes, there is. Public school children learn from a very early age how to function without their parents. If your parents are your teachers, how can you learn to work with different styles of teaching or learning?

To me, homeschooling is never being able to wear your school's Varsity jacket or go to a pep rally or design the school's paper or just see everyone you know and love every single day, be away from your parents, learn how to function with people you don't know for 8 hours a day, having a lunch table with all your friends and joking in the halls and school pranks. It's not just a school, high school creates a culture.

J wrote: "Honestly, how would you know?"

Because I went to public school.

Yeah. You went in elementary school. Very different than in higher grades.

Which grades?

Nicole"I had a few friends that I saw a few times a year and wrote letters to.
My best friend was a girl I wrote to every week. I even got to go over to her house once! "

Lauren "That sounds horrible, no offense."

It was horrible. I'm not offended.

I'm saying that I missed out by not going to real classes. Now that I have been going to a community college for three years it has been a very difficult adjustment. I've learned that I basically can only take classes from female teachers. I have had numerous freak-outs about misunderstandings with my male teachers, had to drop one class bc the teacher was so sarcastic and rude, I couldn't just let it roll off my back. ( I have issues with my dad, and men seam to trigger some un controllable emotions that are not quite connected with the issue I may be having with the teacher.)

Oh, I'm a perfectionist too, so a B is a failure. (I'm really trying to be ok with a B, but it's difficult!) I work very hard for my 3.49, but still panic when thinking about tests.

Yes, I'm in therapy. lol

J wrote: "Yeah. You went in elementary school. Very different than in higher grades."

Well, I wonder, if you've never been home schooled then how would you possibly know that the dynamics of high school versus home school ARE different, socially? You can't possibly know unless you experience it, which is what you're implying about my being home schooled.