She didn't quit, the moderators locked her out.

I was sorry to hear that Candy quit the group. When I first stumbled on this thread, I thought I was in the middle of a fire storm. I finally read previous posts and found them informative and thoughtful. Some I will admit still sound negative,but that is the difference in people.

I deleted quite a few of my post several days ago as I din't feel that they added anything to the best interests of C.R. Quite often one replies too quickly because of the (fatal) speed of using the internet. It has never been my intention to step on anyone's feelings.

Whitaker, you are to be admired as both a scholar and a gentleman, a rare enough combination in these parlous times.

Thanks for the comment, Sherry. I did come to realize that CR members get together and many do know each other personally, and that does make a difference. It also takes time for a new poster to be integrated into the group. I realize that. And it's easy to miss posts. I make allowances for that.

I think group members could go a long way toward making newcomers feel more welcome simply by replying to their posts as long as there's something to reply to.

I know that in Victorians, the moderator goes to great lengths to make everyone feel like a part of the group. She treats us all like old friends and there is so little discord in that group.

I'm not a good problem solver myself, so I can't give much insight. I'm just sorry Candy felt the need to leave the group.

I'm sorry to hear that, Gabrielle. This is most definitely not a closed group. We always greet newcomers, at least I try to. I may miss a few, but it's purely accidental. What you may be experiencing is that many of us have been together for years, have met in person, and are old friends. If that comes across as "closed" you have my apology. Do you have any suggestions how we could make newcomers feel more welcome?

I can't say I blame Candy for leaving. While I've had no problems with members here and two members did converse with me extensively on another thread about food, this does come across as a "closed group," one in which newcomers are not welcome. I've experienced the same thing on other sites.

For the record, I have deleted some of my posts where I let my anger and frustration get the better of me. It is my wish to always have wise and thoughtful communication at CR, and I sometimes fail--miserably.

I apologize for any upset I caused anyone else. It really wasn't my intention, but that's no excuse.

I look forward to many happier exchanges on CR.

Sara

Russ2, I also am aware that "Candy is no longer a member of this group." I think this is not just a matter of expressing regret, but that some explanation is order, and I will ask for one in a separate thread.

Russ2 wrote: "And recently we had a member of this group who was called Candy. Sorry to interrupt, but I just saw the notice that "Candy is no longer a member of this group." I personally think that is a shame..."

Russ, I learned about this from your post. I actually read it last night but never answered then because I did not know what to think of it. Well, 16 hours later and I still don’t know how to react. I am quite saddened by it, and yet to say that I did not see it coming would be a lie. I too wondered if I should just let it rest, or write privately to Candy and some other people in the board, or answer it in a public way, as I am doing now.

I am first of all mad at myself that I did not try to diffuse this discussion when it was at its peak. My thanks and admiration for Whitaker who gave us all a lesson on diplomacy and moderation is immense. I, however, sat on the sidelines when a lot of people I have come to admire here were getting hurt on both sides of this discussion. So, my decision to write this for all to read comes from my realization once again that inertia and silence in the face of conflict/hurt only adds to a worst outcome.

I appreciate Candy very much, and have enjoyed her wit and knowledge. I have met very few people in real life or the internet with this wealth of information and enthusiasm for quite a wide range of subjects. I do intent to write to her privately, which I have not done up to now, and I plan to find other venues/board/group in where I can still share books/thoughts with Candy. I can only imagine how hurt she must be feeling right now, and some part of me thinks an injustice was committed here.

However, another part of me has watched a repetition of this kind of dysfunctional argument over and over at CR. I have also noticed that after such an argument, chances are we lose the odd “regular member”. So I have to ask myself, if I were one of the moderators, how would I deal with this situation? The answer is that I don’t think I would have dealt with it any different than how it was dealt with here.

I do feel much divided, and terribly disappointed with it all. This affair has brought back two very hurtful experiences I have suffered. Once I was told by a group of people that “I didn’t belong.” This happened 5 years ago, and I am sure it has impacted – for better or worse – every relationship I have engaged since. So I can imagine how hurt Candy is.

I also recall as a teenager having to deal with someone in a situation for which I did not have the resources, either emotional or situational, to deal with. An adult/counsellor/ psychologist should have been dealing with this person, not a teenager. This second experience of mine may appear very different from what we had here, but where I find similarities is in the inappropriateness of this venue to deal with the problem at hand.

A public internet forum is not a very appropriate place to deal with conflict. We all come with very different perspectives and deep baggage. The written word is also much more powerful than the spoken, and if this discussion had occurred in a classroom or across the table at a restaurant/bar, the conclusion to it all would have been different. Unfortunately, boards like this do not offer us the chance to really connect and be involved in each other’s lives emotionally. The presupposition is that the exchange here is at a rational and superficial level, and it seems that when it comes to solving problems in communication that do arise in internet boards, we cannot do it in any meaningful way. Yet, we do become very involved in these groups, and willingly or not, we do expose ourselves emotionally.

I have talked much, and gone nowhere. I hope all understand that I am not pointing fingers at any directions or blaming guilt parts, and I am not expecting any answers to this post. I just could not keep on going as if nothing big has happened. It is probably very telling about my life that an internet board consumes so much of my emotional energy and that I have lost sleep over this. But I believe others here feel the same. I am somehow grieving over all this, because not only Candy lost something here, we all did.

From time to time, I see articles on the perils of spell check. Here's one from my alma mater:

http://www.linkedin.com/news?viewArticle...

I wish people wouldn't criticize the French and call us "stuffy." I AM French, by way of Georgia in the US, though I now live in France part-time again since my husband is French. We are not stuffy or any of the other bad things Americans call us.

I have to admit, it bothers me to see, "They went to the White's house" when people mean, "They went to the Whites' house." And I constantly see "over" when it should be "more than."

Didn't humans use sign language before developing speech patterns, and pictures on walls and rocks for written language? Language was simpler then. There was not any grammer to worry about. Everyone pretty much understood a grunt or a squeak, and what a dog looked like. So in answer to Capitu ,I personnally think a picture of a chicken came first or maybe they said ugg and it evolved into egg. Just bringing some lightheartness to discussion.

And recently we had a member of this group who was called Candy. Sorry to interrupt, but I just saw the notice that "Candy is no longer a member of this group." I personally think that is a shame, because I thought adequate amends had been made all around.
Now back to regular programming.
Boo/hiss me if you wish.

Capitu,
I love hearing your musings as a person who learned English as a second language. When I was a child, we lived in Brazil for four years, and at one time I spoke fluent Portuguese. I have completely forgotten everything by now. People always say that it would come back to me, but I don't think so. I listen to Brazilian jazz all of the time, and I can catch only a few words.

Recently, we had a Brazilian singer perform at one of our jazz station concerts. Her English was wonderful, but she sang in Portuguese, and what a fabulous voice she had! Her name is Claudia Villela.

Well, I live my life immersed on a second language, and most of the time I feel that I will never really conquer it. The sad part is that I know I have lost much of my fluency in Portuguese too. It does feel like a curse, as if the language gods have ordered: “You shall never again speak properly on any tongue!”

Prepositions, of course, are completely illogical, and my kids are constantly correcting me. Then, there is the day to day vocabulary. Just today I noticed a mistake I made here on CR. I wrote “cloud” when I meant “crowd”. I edited that one, but I do wonder how many of those a day you guys see and politely ignore (my thanks to you all for that too).

I do wonder that language is very much a reflection of the culture/civilization/society speaking it. Or maybe – on the opposite view – it is a determinant of how people in that society communicate with one another (what comes first the egg or the chicken?).

What I mean is for instance: Is Spanish” romantic” because the way the Spanish language sounds, or it is a reflection on the Spaniard culture? Or yet, the business-friendliness and directness of the English language, has it helped mould the English speaking societies into a more entrepreneurial oriented civilization? Or is English so straight forward because the people speaking it infused it with this sense of precision which seems to me so characteristic of, well, native English speakers?

I know I am heading into dangerous terrain with this kind of questioning. But I assure everyone I don’t mean anything disrespectful to the Spanish or English speakers, and I am not claiming that the Spanish speaking population cannot be entrepreneurial or that the English cannot be romantic. I am only suggesting that there are characteristics of a language that seem to mirror the “cultural character” of the population speaking it.

All right, if my analysis here is in any way dogmatic, do let me know, but gently, please.

Whitaker,

I love thinking about the differences in languages. In my department at school, there was a teacher who was a native of the French part of Belgium, and she was married to a man from Colombia. She was, therefore, fluent in French, Spanish, and English, but English was her weakest language. I sometimes had to "translate" for her in department meetings. For example, one time she asked when we were going to get our augmentation. The men in the department looked at all of the women with some interest until I said, "She means raise".

Andy and Sherry,
I find that interesting that you tend to pick up accents of the people around you. And Andy, I think it is really smart to do so in your job. When I was a child, I said "warsh" one time (a word that I picked up from my dad), and another child laughed at me so that cured that.

The 75 miles must have gone by in a flash.

I'm sure the class was fun and interesting. He's an interesting guy. I like him a lot. But he does march to his own drummer.

I remember one day when we drove from Redlands to a poetry reading in Venice, that's 75 miles one way. And we argued about this all the way in and all the way home!

That's a very interesting opinion. I'm sure now we can do away with all the English professors and writing instructors in colleges and universities. I wonder what his class was like?

That pretty much sums it up, Sherry. He was in my Redlands poetry group and we went round and round on this one for years.

My contention was why not correct anything anyone will see as a grammatical error? (Excepting, of course, those "mistakes on purpose.") I know that running up against something like "less" instead of "fewer" causes an interruption, a bump as it were, in my attention. All of a sudden I'm thinking about English grammar instead of what the writer wants me to think about.

What did she/he mean by that, Ruth? That everything anyone says, as long as they say it in their native language, cannot make a language mistake?

We're all guilty of sloppy writing. I'm sure even Shakespeare had his off days. But at least he knew when to use the circular file.

I have a friend, a former English professor, who often says "a native English speaker cannot make a mistake." I can't tell you how many long happy arguments we have had about this during the years of our long happy friendship.

I do that too. :)

My thoughts about apostrophes? I'm the last person to ask. I read works and write poetry without any punctuation at all. :)

Ah, but intentional violation of the rules in order to achieve an effect, is far different from just plain sloppy writing.

I'm sorry I missed this thread, thinking it was only about grammar and an apostrophe, when actually I now see that it branched considerably and in many different directions. Especially, I was interested in the views that you, Candy, brought to the discussion in a broader realm than simply text-book grammar, and it is fair to say that I have always had my outlook on the world broadened by your contributions from a different perspective. To me that is a major benefit of the Internet, even if it sometimes gets exciting and one's attitudes are challenged. So I hope that the spirit of free discussion continues to prevail here, as exemplified in this very thread.

My thoughts about apostrophes? I'm the last person to ask. I read works and write poetry without any punctuation at all. :)

I'm a bit of a aural chameleon, myself, Andy. When I moved from NC to Baltimore, my southern accent smoothed out very quickly, but there were certain words that gave me away. I would make the word "bed" into two syllables. "Head" would have almost three. These kinds of things were the hardest for me to break. I still have to think before I say the word "pen" because it will sound like "pin." My Southern ears can barely tell the difference, and my Southern mouth thinks they're the same. (And they also have two syllables.) When we had a exchange student living with us from England, I found myself sounding like a Brit without meaning to.

I feel your pain, Jane. But in the last year, I went from using the salutation comma to eliminating it. The trouble I had with Hi, Jane, was when writing a quick email to say thanks. The email invariably ended up like this:

Thanks, Jane.

I would worry, perhaps unreasonably, that it sounded like I was saying Thanks, then signing off with Jane instead of my own name.

So I would write Thanks Jane instead. Then, I decided to start leaving the comma out of Hi Jane too, because, as they say in the publishing business, it is better to be wrong but consistent than it is to be inconsistently right.

Regarding volunteer experiences in relation to grammar, I did work with Hmong immigrants at a school for a couple of years specifically on literacy. The kids were brilliant in general, their speaking was beautiful considering many of their parents did not speak English at all. There was a movement in the school district to combine the school I was at with a more middle-class school, but the parents of the middle-class school killed it because they thought it would bring their children's test scores down.

I've often had interesting situations with the spoken language at different jobs. I worked with a bunch of guys on a route driving job for about nine months, a lot of them asked me what the hell I was doing in that job because of the way I spoke, but I also found myself using language and grammar I wouldn't have otherwise, like "ain't" for instance. To fit in, I suppose. Even at my current job, I refer to many nouns as "her" because, unfortunately, that's how many of the men talk in my office. As in, "I got a new fishin' pole, wanna take her out for a spin?" Ugh. But I work for a magazine that takes as its topic a hobby that is wrapped up with our audience's sense of manhood, and one of the conditions of my being hired was to be passionate about the topic, and I believe that to speak too correctly (ie to refer to a fishin' pole as "it") would reveal me to be decidedly unmannish and would call my passion to question and would therefor threaten my job. Plus, I sit next to a salesman who happens to be very crafty when it comes to "mirroring" the clients he calls on the phone, so it seems that I've begun to mirror him and the other salesman (who I really don't like very much), mirroring my way even unto ungrammatical-land. Which reminds me of another job where I was known to slip into a very mild form of ebonics when talking to some of the women on the job. I really liked it :)

When I worked with Candy at the Outreach, I don't remember changing the way I spoke too much, other than the fact that I was of course using my Chicago voice rather than my Wisconsin accent, which is also back in full swing now that I'm back up here. I may have done a slightly "cooler" language with some of the people, but especially since the people we were working with were often men who I was ever so slightly threatened by, I probably kept things pretty toned down. I was able to be there for quite a few art sessions and I also worked serving food once a week, but I still felt like I was just beginning to get a feeling for how to really relate to the homeless people, I did better I think when I was doing art or eating at the meals and I didn't feel as much like a volunteer but more like just another hungry person.

I think with some people, there is a connection or conflict based on something completely separate from language, whereas between other people, language and inflection and grammar matter very much. It's a mystery to me.

I think that would be a challenge for me if I were a teacher, because I'd be inclined to try to talk like my students instead of wanting them to talk like me. Who knows, maybe it would work both ways. It could be my own deficiencies that cause me to lapse into ungrammaticalness to fit in or to try on different expressions. Maybe if I was more confident or stronger I would be more correct in my spoken language use.

I think teachers are doing something right, for while it can often seem that today's young people are hopeless, I believe most research indicates that, at this moment in history, illiteracy rates are lower than ever before, both in the United States and in the world. Yeah teachers!

Whitaker, prepositions sometimes give me trouble in French, because the word used (e.g. sous vs. dans) is so often arbitrary, and different from
the English equivalent. I don't have as much trouble with prepositions in Spanish. Perhaps because I heard so much Spanish from such a young age growing up in California, the proper word in context is available buried somewhere in my subconscious.

Candy, it wasn't me that googled you. "tukw" in the IP address probably means Tukwila, that is a town near Seattle. I have visited your website a couple of times in the past, but not recently. I wouldn't need to google it, because I know it is linked in your profile here. It is interesting that your parents both changed their names too, but that still doesn't explain to me why you thought it was appropriate to refer to your birth name as your "slave name."

Theresa

Prepositions are indeed tricky. My husband has lived in this country for over 50 years, and yet he still sometimes blows it with the prepositions.

In a way grammar is a little like music. I'm perfectly happy banging away on the piano and making mistakes all over the place. As long as I'm alone I can pretend my mistakes away. But I wouldn't expect anyone to listen to me with enjoyment.

Just as I wouldn't go to a concert to listen to an orchestra with numblefingers, neither do I want to read a book filled with grammar errors.

Here's an interesting mirror image of that situation.

A friend learning French once called a native French couple, and was told in English, that the party asked for was "under the shower". Now, of course, it should be "in the shower" in English, but he picked up from that--rather astutely I think--that it's "sous la douche" in French and not "dans la douche". I thought it was an interesting mirror image insofar as he learnt more about French because of the error made in English. Prepositions are such tricky things, especially across languages.

Jane,

Less than a month ago, I realized I've been punctuating parens incorrectly . . . for years! Much chagrin: I was placing the ending punctuation inside the parenthesis, even when it was a phrase (i.e. a parenthetical remark, Sara)within a sentence. Of course, the exception is when the entire sentence is inside the parens.

(I think.)

Thanks for getting the train back on track.

Sara

My own thread seems to have turned into the thread in which Candy attacks Jane and her love of the French language. I am not going to list my French credentials because my friends know them.

I would like to continue the discussion of grammar and language. I find that I have often learned English lessons from foreign-born Americans. I am part of a group that reads to elementary school children, and I received a number of e-mails from our Cuban-born leader before he retired. He always started his messages with "Hi, Jane", using a comma. For years I had been writing, "Hi Ruth" or "Hi Sherry" without the comma. When I looked at Raul's greeting, I realized that he was correct! If you are addressing someone, you should use a comma. Commas do make a difference as we all know from the book EATS, SHOOTS, AND LEAVES. I love that title.

If this note annoys you too much, feel free to ignore it. You may start your own thread in which you say that grammar is not important. This thread is for the discussion of grammar.

Oh there are also two books I use for keeping focused on goals with volunteer work Whitaker. These are indispensable tools for anyone concerned with grammar and language. One is Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl and the other one is a brilliant BRILLIANT short story called Poor Koko by John Fowles.

Hey Whitaker...I did some asking around and some meditation and i believe I can share al little bit to answer your thoughtful question.

Whitaker asked:

I' m curious, how do you reach out to a homless man, say, and get them to open up and talk and write and learn? What have you experienced that works best for you?

I've got a bunch of answers. And some may seem a little unorthodox. But it is the heart of the passion I feel for doing service.

First...how do I reach out? Well, I make myself available. I am a pretty good listener. I'm not an angel, but I am compassionate. I'm a good loyal friend and rarely lose a friend or mess up so badly...I believe in analysing human dynamics and relationships. I am involved with the ethics of friendship...and having made some mistakes in the past with people...I work to not make those mistakes again, and keep a loving heart. But I use my friends as a source of strength and history of behaviour.

I am also...oddly considering I have a fairly outgoing personality, not a very trusting person. I have had the experience that sometimes when we open up about ourselves there are people out there who will use that sharing in vindictive ways.

When I was a child I was sexually attacked. It was in a park a long long time ago.(I never let my daughter play in park for her whole life. She played outside our apartment on a street corner where all our friends and I could see her) I've had a lot of therapy about it and have given time to rape and battered womens shelters in large part because of that experience. I don't like talking about it. But...I am many years recovered from the experience and the memories of it I use as a source of knowing what it feels like to be hurt, to be judged or mistreated. I believe in an unorthodox way this gives me a good background for compassion of suffering. It is not unusual for those of us who have been attacked to become involved in volunteer work.

In the literacy programs I helped out in Toronto you had interviews where you need to explain to social workers why you want to volunteer with runaway kids. I always told them about my rape and that it made me understand the vulnerabilities of kids who aren't being cared for in traditional families. I suppose it is a "street cred" in some ways for proving why I would be good for such work. In those literacy programs you basically make your self available. You put in a consistent regular set of hours. The kids might be late, they might even be missing...but to get their thier trust you show up. It also helps to be a person who is casual looking. I've always been involved in music and concerts and art and you could probably stereotype me as dressing lie a person who is urban nd artsty> It's amazing how much that gets the immediate respect of kids.Not every volunteer looked "alternative" like me. But it was a door opening for some particularily alienated young people. They could trust me because I looked like I listened to the same music they did, and quite often, I did.

I didn't make traditional lesson plans. Sometimes literacy programs having you helping someone fill out paperwork for their parole officer. You can not pretend you are not afraid of a former convict. Or a tough teenager. You need to be able to communicate non-verbally very quickly that you are not judging and you are a welcoming face. It's not something I believe that can be taught or faked. I believe you have to be real. But thats just my opinion. We don't have the same options as conventional educational settings nor any academically correct or sanctioned positions of power or pedagogy. Sometimes a "tutoring session" might be helping someone write a resume or fill out a job application. If we I am helping some fill out a job application...the actual paperwork is not the focus. I ask what kind of job, what will they feel like when they get a job, when they get their first paycheque? Often it is not working through essays or book reviews. But sometimes the work can be...in some scenarios...school work. Talking is the basic way I share to assure trust. I also know what it feels like to not trust people.

When working with homeless men and women, adults...sometimes being a person they feel comfortable with is going outside for a cigarette together. Sure, I know that might not appeal to non-smokers or such...but it's amazing how bonding that can be to someone living outside. I would als sugges tthat having a natural conversation style is an asset too. A lot of homeless people have ehalth issues, have been beaten, have been in trouble with schools, teachers, Authortity figures. Sometimes just being cool is enough. Again I don't believe being cool is something that can be taught. it something in the heart. And like the vulnerable life of living outside...I know what it means to protect myself from danger even if that danger is something like negative attitudes in my world. I do not accept negative people or attitudes in my life. My skills for measuring character are the same skills homeless people use to measure words, body language, authority figures, etc. Homeless people have to navigate the law as much as they do muggers.

When we set up the art programs for indigent persons we just showed up. We put up signs, we brought supplies and we sat there. Sometimes running outside in the hallway to say "who wants to do art?" and maybe be a little silly. The social workers also knew some of the people who make art and had given them a heads up. I'll tell you something interesting Whitaker. I've never given one bit of lesson or advice or instruction technically. Most people already know what they want to make...they just need a warm place to sit, a cup of coffee, and material. While sitting around conversation occurs. One of the benefits of such an art program is not only is someone who is creative and talented but homeless making art...but they might be sharing what their health status is, or like anyone they might have to vent about something in their every day life...sitting around making a drawing or painting for an afternoon gives them a new ear to share. I have often found that there is an uncanny "spidey sense" in homeless people. I know that even a positive stereotype is a negative...but let me explain. I believe that sense and skills are developed for reading character and attitude with people who have been attacked and in people living displaced. It's a skill that the body or mind subconsciously feels needs to be heightened for survival. Bear with me Whitaker.

I have found that the bs meter on trauma victims, in the underdog and in homeless people is something we all have in common. We are all shared in our fear of being hurt again. For real.

if you can transmit a very real common sense with clients you can likely build a rapport. A low bs factor will get you in the door. A hoity toity will get you kicked out.

And this might sound unorthodox too...but I believe people are attracted to light. They are attracted to happy energetic people. And the same is true with homeless people as anyone. So a couple of people arriving at a community centre with some positive energy, happy hearts...well people want to hang out with people like that. It's true for people who live conventional home life styles as it is for those who live outside. Being happy feels good. I think sometimes when Andy was at the outreach with me...the people joined us because we were simply excited about hanging out and painting together and getting others to join us. in many ways once we were all sitting down it was often difficult to realize that sometimes these men and women had been outside all night in -15F. We all wanted to make art together and chew a little fat.

p.s Whitaker...will you comfortable to let me write to you about my experiences and technical and spiritual challenges with your last question? I don't know if I should write about it on a public forum so directly, okay? I don't want to violate a protocol or personal situation of someone who is homeless...or give me a bit to make a phone call to ask one of the Fathers and see what they say, okay? I'll give them a call in a day or so.

Candy, that was a lovely post, and sets a great deal of context to where you come from and why you have the views you have. I think the work you do with battered women and the homeless is very heartwarming and humbling, and I can see why having to work with people who have already had bad experiences with authority would inform your approach to language learning. I can also see why what might work or even be recommended for a formalised educational setting would be wholly out of place in a setting where just getting someone to come in and talk is an achievement in itself. God, as they say, is in the details.

I personally found it very enriching to read about your experiences and wish that you'd speak from that perspective more often. Thank You So Much for Sharing That!!

I'm curious, how do you reach out to a homless man, say, and get them to open up and talk and write and learn? What have you experienced that works best for you?

whoops...sorry long post...continued...

Ironically, my loosey-goosey (as my mother used to say) artsy fartsy high school days turned out to be a valuable experience for hanging out with folks who are displaced or not living within the same economic matrix as most of our society.

Speaking of my mother, another thing I will share with you Theresa is your interest in my family. I have shared with you and CR these family stories but maybe you don't remember, I sure wouldn't expect them to be memorable. I feel like they are quite boring so why they would interest someone else I am not sure, but you keep seeming to be interested, so here goes! My family sort of ties in to this interest or possibly appalling sense you felt from my comments. I can see why you might be curious about my family. As I've already said a lot of my family was in the military. My mothers side of the family is from northern spots in Canada and her side of the family is Hebrew, Scottish, Ojibwa and distant Irish. My dads side of the family lived mostly in western Canada once coming from Denmark and Norway. So a part of my family wasn't the Normans conquests but those darn Vikings. But actually, my family isn't half as exciting as Vikings...just average Canadian "mutts" I suppose. My dads side of the family were the transplants I suppose you might say? We tried to eat all the kinds of foods that al the different customs of such a family mixture might try to keep up with. My parents got into the 1960's with trying trendy new foods like avocado. My dads grandmother had a deli on Vancouver Island. My mum's grandfather had a fox farm way up north. My mums family worked in the railroad, and she in fact was born in a train stop in the "boonies", or "hicks". My dads dad fought in two world wars via Denmark. Both my parents have changed their original names. I guess it's a kind fo family thing. My fathers name was Anglocized and when I was in my 20's he changed it back to the original Danish. My mum has changed her name 3 or 4 times. We didn't have a religion, instead my mum used to take us to all kinds of synagogues, temples, Mide priests, tarot card readers, the Unitarian church. She was really into comparative religion and visiting graveyards. She also was into spiritual masses where psychics would tell fortunes or heal people. My father was a hard core atheist. So sometimes my parents would argue over these trips to various religious studies or sanctuaries. He said he just didn't get it, although since he was working full time back then, and a college student he said he was too tired on weekends to go to synagogue or tarot card readings.

I don't know these family travels are really more my parents world and experiences. They were very interested in geneology and went to Denmark to stay in touch with our family there and family who moved to the States. I've enver really been into geneology that much. But, it was fun when my parents were tracking down lost cousins and finding out surprising skeletons in the closet...at least a s a kid the skeletons in the closets were the fun parts. My mum still has her northern rural accents she said "wharsh" instead of "wash". And once my dad went to college he tried to improve all of our pronunciation. My sister and I can butcher the pronunciation and spelling of any word.

See Theresa, it's a sure sign of old age when I'm recalling boring family stuff yikes!

I don't know what literacy theory was popular back in your day 30 years ago, so I can't speak on that point. I do know that when I was volunteering I never heard anything that would have encouraged us to "talk however we feel like and write however we feel like." But that does sound very 1960s, so I will grant it might be something you were taught way back then. I'm not much of a fan of pedagogical theory of any stripe anyway, even the anything goes persuasion. You made me bust out laughing again here. It wasn't the 1960's, har! I'm terrible at math but 30 years ago isn't the 60's is it? And we didn't have any literacy theory per se that I recall Theresa. My example being that the kinds of discussions or approaches about literacy were different by the 1990's and today. I would say it would be accepted to "talk however we feel like and write however we feel like" while working with sensitivity to others skills in volunteer work. It's not about faking compassion or pretending to be "on the same level" as someone else.... but coming from a belief that we are the same as others.. Not lower to a different level or going up to a higher level...but see that people are all on the same level. There is no sub-standard communication. And we make mistakes. Even with the best intentions to be respectful all of us stumble or fall from grace. Often the volunteer work I do is in churches or with spiritual venues where a philosophy is that god made everyone with same value and preciousness, same level. Iguess you could say that we let the clients set the tone to some degree. Now maybe that is an "anything goes" attitude...anything but name-calling, violence, cussing. And I don't think priests, volunteers and social workers are suggesting a pedagogical theory. Just warm and friendly. You can't pretend to be on a similar "level". I might even suggest that many of us hopes to offer sincere opportunity for service. You can't pretend to be warm and friendly. It is an asset to be sincerely a people person. I hope that makes some sense and I do not represent all volunteers with my feelings here.

Theresa, I like to try make jokes too. I was trying to have some fun with posts to Whitaker too. I I can understand how you could imagine my schooling must have pretty flaky. It was, I've told a few anecdotes about it here over the years, you may or may not recall. My high school curriculum was really west coast and quite more slack than my friends who grew up in Ontario. When I was really little we went to school on a lot of military bases...I remember being sent home on a really cold day in Ottawa for wearing jeans under my skirt. My parents had to talk to some administration to change rules so girls could wear jeans to school in cold weather. We moved from a fairly structured lifestyle on that military base to a small island off west coast with our principal who had moved to Canada so his oldest son wouldn't get drafted to Vietnam. . The schools were so different and it was very much an atmosphere where teachers were trying to be cool and "laid back" and let students read just about anything for homework assignments. I remember comparing the books my friend Mister Anchovy read in high school in much more conservative, traditional Toronto to what I read on Quadra Island. We were howling with laughter because I had read Call Me Madam, comic books, and album cover lyrics for English classes. He had read The Illiad, War and Peace and Conrad. I don't if I can explain how ridiculous it was that I read "Call Me Madam'...it was written by a woman who was in pop culture and had written a book several years earlier about being a prostitute. I also remember seriously trying to interpret album cover lyrics for a presentation. I wasn't still a very good reader even in highschool...I was a very slow learner...but the laid back idea of acepting comic books and album cover lyrics for assignments helped me get better at reading. In my high school we really did be encouraged to "talk however we feel like and write however we feel like". I know it sounds flaky, and it is funny in lots of ways. I can see how I might also sound appalling.

I like to try to write some joking in my posts here too. So I do appreciate your attempt at joking too. I was attempting to write a funny line when I said in Canada talking about grammar and language is one of our national sports. I'm not sure if I was funny or not. Comedy is a very tough genre to write, I know because I've helped work on quite a few comedy projects from sketch to films and it's a real tricky but fun genre. There can be a big gap between making a joke and actually accomplishing being funny. You were successful with something being funny in your post. Seriously, I lost my cup of morning coffee ...and my keyboard is sticking now because I laughed so hard when you said "I don't know what literacy theory was popular back in your day 30 years ago, so I can't speak on that point."

I laughed so hard, because I am really old. I guess it does sound pretty funny to be waxing poetic about 30 years ago. I'm an old bag alright so thank you for my morning laughter. It was a good one. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was trying to be old and wise and "back in my day" I didn't mean to use my old age as some kind of sign that I know more than you, I really didn't Theresa. I do value your insight on many topics even if I don't agree with you on many of them. So thanks for getting me to laugh about that. Ha ha! But when I first volunteered in a womans shelter...we did do things a little differently than how we did things by the 1990's and today.

When we have drop-in classes at Wicker Park here in Chicago or where I used to volunteer in east Toronto...I don't think it would be conducive to bring the kind of teaching styles or tools that are used by conventional schools or university professors in many situations or environments. The foundation for traditional literacy technques is available but it might not be the way the work is accomplished in conventional education settings. The approaches used by those valuable professions might seem too intimadating or be perceived as "controlling" with folks who haven't had always good experiences with people in positions often considered of power or leadership. I loved Ruth's idea of different coloured markers for her teaching experience. But it wouldn't be a method I would choose to use while working with a fellow who hadn't lived inside in years or a woman who had been beaten and battered. Sometimes the job of working with a teenage runaway with literacy skills involves just being there and opening dialogue about how they felt about a recent thing they read or talked about or what is going on in their lives. Sometimes, for example an art workshop might have a bunch of us sitting around and making something, a painting or drawing...but a fair bit of the situation is about finding out how people are doing, just talking. Maybe I am not the best qualified for such work, especially when I think about your feelings towards "anything goes"...but perhaps I can offer to you why sometimes such a relaxed attitude opens dialogue? And sometimes opening dialogue or offering company and a warm place to sit is an important part of literacy success, or art work being practiced.

continued...

Very interesting posts, Whitaker, Jane, Phil, Lynn and Ruth.

I'm picturing a descendant of some colonizing Norman, deciding in about 1266 that he really "believes" he is an Angle, deep in his heart it's true! Maybe foisting his kids on an Angle-immersion school, whether they want them there or not - the dude just can't stop colonizing! And then changing his esclave name, Pierre let's say, to Beowulf. But at the end of the day, pauvre Pierre still is what he is - a Norman through and through.

Candy, the above is a joke. My post below most definitely was not. It was a response to a post you made that I feel displayed an absolutely appalling lack of sensitivity and respect.

I don't know what literacy theory was popular back in your day 30 years ago, so I can't speak on that point. I do know that when I was volunteering I never heard anything that would have encouraged us to "talk however we feel like and write however we feel like." But that does sound very 1960s, so I will grant it might be something you were taught way back then. I'm not much of a fan of pedagogical theory of any stripe anyway, even the anything goes persuasion.

Theresa

Here you go Whitaker...here is the prime mandate/objective of Loi 101. I think you will see quite quickly how much I am influenced by this aspect of Canadian life...and when the topic of grammar arises depending on how the topic is couched...why I might bristle...just a different upbringing and background...it's really a part of my country's constitution and an important philosophical approach for many of us in Canada.

"to make of French the language of Government and the Law, as well as the normal and everyday language of work, instruction, communication, commerce and business". It also states that the National Assembly is to pursue this objective "in a spirit of fairness and open-mindedness, respectful of the institutions of the English-speaking community of Quebec, and respectful of the ethnic minorities, whose valuable contribution to the development of Quebec it readily acknowledges". In addition, it states that the National Assembly of Quebec recognizes "the right of the Amerinds and the Inuit of Quebec, the first inhabitants of this land, to preserve and develop their original language and culture".

p.s. Whitaker...I think you must have added the last set of terminology later...while I was responding to the first section of your post. What are you and I now separated at birth? I remember the first time I saw a sign in Montreal for "le hotdog"...it was back in the day and even then I knew how funny that was. I wouldn't have been able to explain it, but just knew. Darling, we know Old English, I've read Beowulf like three times.

:)

Your list of "new French" is hilarious...and it might even be against the law in Canada!

Oh ha ha exactly what I was saying, Whitaker. I just don't think it leads to the conclusion of "trickle down". Down from what? A higher plane? A mountain? A social standing? A duck? A dictator? A cloud? A god? A tree?

In addition to taking over their land, the Normans also took over their language. No. It was more like the English took over the French language...but this terminolgy of taking over isn't quite accurate. Assimilate is much more closer to the transition.

And I believe it was Marc Antony who said, "Ah, but ze French, she is just Laaaatin zpoken badly." (This remark is likely apocryphal since it has been attributed also to Lucius Annaeus Seneca.)

Whitaker, I don't need to wiki it...I'm from a bilingual country. I had to practice English and French since I was five years old. Canadians take language, especially French and it's history very very seriously, heh heh. Language and grammar protection is like one of our national sports. We have quite strict laws about French and protecting distinct societies. This is probably another aspect of how my brain is wired. Probably adds to why I have such a particular view about the subject.

I suspect most people haven't met "real" snobs. I know quite a few dedicated language freaks. Actually, I met a couple of them here at CR. We've had a few true blue self-described English and grammar snobs pass through here. (I say this lovingly because they adopted me of sort...go figure the worst writer at CR!) Some all the way from Britian. I am still good friends with them, but they felt they could never get a decent conversation going. They felt us over here in North America speak lousy English...even the well spoken ones. We don't read "good" literature here. Everything is fast. Fast poetry, fast novels,fast posts. They tell me, all self-respecting language lovers of English and French read Moliere and Shakespeare. But maybe not so much in North America. I tell them we read different good stuff, heh heh.

Meanwhile...after many decades of protecting the French language in Canada we find that the strict guidelines for French language and culture are ironically it's death knell. It seems keeping a language "pure" is like giving it a death sentence. languages stay strong...like English when they assimilate and adopt slang, international words, new usages. French protection rules with a mandate to stay alive and distinct may have shut it self off from the very life force of what makes language healthy. Absorbing all kinds of words and usages. We want language and language skills to stay strong, stay relevant? Well then embrace a little anarchy, a little slang, throw in some trendy technical terms, and a little strange usage.

:)

And hey. Whitaker, again great posts this morning. I noticed that you had managed to embrace a lot of what Andy and I had been saying...but in a way that some others were more receptive to hearing. That was pretty cool. I even had to double check to see if you had copy and pasted some of what I had said, heh heh. Especially the bit about the motives behind the church sign. I really thought it was cool you found a way to play "peacemaker".

Also...I don't know how long you've been at CR, but if it's been about three years, maybe you notice we tend to have this very discussion pop up: over and over. Over and over and over. We even had a couple of the same links posted before. Someone invariably brings out Stanley Fish. Someone usually claims that losing touch with grammar is the end of the social fabric as we know it. Someone else says "the kids these days can't write". Someone says how much they love this language or that. Usually French. It's a little like here at CR we are in the novel No Exit just having some of these same issues over and often seeing the same folks bring up the very same things we did before. It's pretty funny. I'm sure this topic will pop up again in another year or two. We've probably had it about five or six times in ten years. Other web boards too.

I told my girlfriend this evening about this discussion and she was like "Candy, there are rules. No one is supposed to talk about sex, religion, politics or grammar at a dinner party!"

English, French, German and the other European languages are all part of the larger family of Indo-European languages. Somewhere along the line, proto-Indo-European split off into, among others, the Germanic and Italic families. Under the Germanic family of languages, we have German and English. The family relationship between German and English may be seen in the more basic words like "mother", "father", "water" and "death". The equivalent German terms are "mutter", "vater", "wasser" and "tod". Under the Italic family of languages, we get Latin and from Latin, we get French, Spanish, Italian and so on. And in French, the terms are "mere", "pere", "eau" and "mort".

The original Old English terms for pig include "swin" from which we have the English "swine". The German term is similar: "Schwein". French for "pig" is "cochon". "Porc" is more frequently used for the meat. Old English did not have a word for "pork".

The original Old English term for cow is "cu", and the English is of course "cow". Again, German is similar: "Kuh". Look across the Channel and the French say "vache", with "boeuf" more frequently used for the meat from the "vache". Again, Old English did not have a word for "beef".

The English debt to the French for up to 60% (some say as much as 80%) of the English vocabulary is something that is fairly well documented and accepted. If you wiki it, I'm sure you'll find more information on it. The Norman invasion in 1066 imposed a Norman (i.e., French) aristocracy on the Anglo-Saxons then living in England who spoke "Anglish" (the language of the Angles) also known as Old English. This is what it looks like:

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
-- From Beowulf:

In addition to conquering the land of the Angles and the Saxons, the Normans also conquered their language by making French the language of administration and the law. I believe it was Voltaire who, when learning English, famously exclaimed, "Ah, but ze English, she is just Frrrrench zpoken badly." (This remark is likely apocryphal since it has been attributed also to Dumas.)

Now, of course, it's payback time and the more stuffy French population will frequently complain of the increasing Anglicisation of their language. Et voici l'evidence!

We have, of course, the borrowings of technological, business, or trendy terms:
-- Googler: To google
-- Bruncher: To go for brunch
-- Interviewer: To interview (usually heard on news or celebrity programmes)
-- (Faire) du footing: To jog (it used to be faire du jogging, but I don't hear that so much anymore)
-- Le fooding: The practice of enjoying foods from different cultures
-- People: Popular with celebrities, good for people watching; as in "un resto très people": a restaurant popular with celebrities
-- Le marketing: The marketing of a product or service
-- Un leader: A leader (mostly world or business leaders); so a company might be "un leader mondial du marketing" (a world leader in marketing)
-- Le no-kill: The practice of catch-and-release

Some old favourites:
-- Un redingote: A riding coat (from the late 19th century)
-- Un parking: A car park
-- Un swit-shirt: A pullover or sweat-shirt. This is interesting because it used to be "sweatshirt" but has gradually morphed into "swit-shirt". A bit like "riding coat" to "redingote" I guess.

And, of course, you have original French words which have false cognates in English but under the pressure of globalization have taken on the English meanings:
-- Le maintenance: Maintenance, which is slowly replacing the correct French term, "entretien".
-- Realiser: The English meaning "to come to the realization" is replacing or existing alongside the original French meaning "to finish a project". In the past, purists would say "se rendre compte".

Oops, Jane. Those meats in French are good old fashioned French slang. Slang that is if you might be Roman :) It's been a while since I have practiced Latin, but both pork and beef are not from French. They are traced back to porcus in Latin...the French slang usage became porc. And beef once boeuf is more French vernacular from Latin...of the Latin bovis/bos. I don't know for sure when but I think it was around that fellow Julius Caesar campaigning in what is sometimes called Gaul. And it's not unlikely that the Latin can be tracked through Sanskrit or Indo-Iranian.

Jane said...The conquered people still had their own words for the animals like "pig" and "cow", but the French words trickled down for the meat of those animals pork (porc) and beef (boeuf).

Jane, your idea of "trickled down" from an imaginary higher plateau or status of French presents us with another lop-sided argument about language. To Roman high culture the French language we might romanticise about would have been considered quite vulgar grammar. I am not so sure some British folks would agree with you that any French word trickled down to them, har!

Philip wrote: "In return I offer a little word anecdote on an apparently flammable topic, language itself."

I love that story. And I think it was the right thing to do! I can well appreciate the need to use non-standard English. In the office, I head up the legal research deparment. I won't accept sub-standard English and typos in memos from the research lawyers that report to me, but from the library clerical staff I'm totally okay with it. Indeed, I will happily lower my register and use non-standard English when communicating with the library clerical staff: I realised that when I used standard English, they would get completely lost. I used to wonder all the time, why aren't they doing what I tell them? When I learnt to communicate at their level, all was fine. :-)

Philip wrote: "Whitaker, I too appreciated your posts very much, thank you.

In return I offer a little word anecdote on an apparently flammable topic, language itself. Your comment copied below reminded me of a..."

Philip, I did not know that! Thanks for explaining! I will add this one to my arsenal.

Whitaker, I too appreciated your posts very much, thank you.

In return I offer a little word anecdote on an apparently flammable topic, language itself. Your comment copied below reminded me of an example in this country in the last generation:

Or someone putting up a warning sign? Those are very real situations where people’s lives are going to be in danger from poor language skills. Even if one could figure out the English eventually, sometimes in situations of urgency or danger, a little loss in time is all it takes.

It used to be that for safety reasons we labelled things that are 'able to be set on fire = able to be in-flamed' with the linguistically sound (but semantically confusing) word INFLAMMABLE. But too many people apparently saw that prefix IN- and connected it to its much more common meaning when attached to other words, where it negates the rest of the word (on our theme of oppression and misused power, think INequality INjustice, etc.), so they might have thought the big tanker full of petroleum was NOT able to be set on fire, leading to unhappy results.

So a new word was invented, namely FLAMMABLE - not by mistake, but a deliberate alteration of the language for purposes of public safety, for all people, those with more or less knowledge of words and their origins.

I happened to know what the word 'inflammable' meant, and I can be as crusty as all get out about language, but this change always seemed reasonable to me. True, it gave me a twinge of regret to lose what I thought was a perfectly serviceable word, but as many have said above, our language is always changing, often much more imperceptibly.

Thank you so much, Whitaker, for your kind words to me. I, at one point, was going to say that maybe the kit of letters that the church person used to make up the sign didn't have an apostrophe. We just don't know.

Languages also evolve because of countries being conquered by other people. After 1066 when William, the Conqueror, conquered England, many words used by nobility were French words because the nobles were French. An example of this would be the word "pork" which comes from the French word "porc". The word "porc" in French can also mean "pig". The conquered people still had their own words for the animals like "pig" and "cow", but the French words trickled down for the meat of those animals pork (porc) and beef (boeuf). You can tell that I am fascinated by languages.

I did the same when I was teaching, Lynn. I even used 2 colors of pen. One for comments on Art History that directly affected their grade. One for correcting their English, which was for comments that did not directly affect their grade unless the paper was so poorly written I couldn't understand what they were talking about. Which happened more often than I'd like to remember.

I finally got a chance to read the article about student writing at UC San Diego that Jane mentioned. I teach business at a small liberal arts university in the midwest and I feel as if the article could have been written here just as easily. I often hear similar comments from employers about the writing skills (or lack thereof) demonstrated by our graduates.

One statement in particular caught my attention:
"Margo Wilding, director of the writing center at the University of San Diego, said she believes the quality of students' writing is directly linked to how much time they've spent reading good writing."

I find that students make many errors regarding homophones, particularly "their", "they're" and "there". They tend to use "there" for all three meanings. I attribute that to a predominance of experience with spoken communication and a lack of time spent reading. Even though my job isn't explicitly to teach English, I correct that kind of error in papers submitted to me in hopes that a light bulb will go off in at least one head. I don't think it often does, but I continue to hope.