Good morning everyone!

Here is the problem - how do you effectively switch between two time periods?
Specifically, in my story my character (Lisabeth)finds some letters(Elsie)in the attic. The story and life of this character is really important and intertwines with the life of Lisabeth, who will ultimately find revelation in her own life from the life and contribution of Elsie some fifty years earlier.
I have tried a couple of methods like separating the book into two separate parts, and I have also tried using the letters as an introduction to the life of Elsie.
It all feels awkward.
Any advice?

I could give you a lengthy explanation, but it will be much easier if your read Kate Mosse's Labyrinth. She does a great job of weaving two lives almost one-thousand years apart.

That is a difficult one.

I have a similar problem. OK, mine involves racial memory and things that happened elsewhere many years ago, but they have direct bearing on the current situation. The inciting incident in mine could be said to be the rejection of a woman by the protagonists father soem fifty years ago.

So, mine has flashbacks (racial memory like I said) which are witnessed as if the protagonist was siting inside his father's head watching events unfold - so the POV is his father's.

You need to have them in separate sections - present and past, contained within the same chapters if possible, so that Lisabeth can gain insight and advice from Elsie's letters as and when she needs it. For some variety, you could occasionally have Lisabeth start reading one of the letters, and then her imagination gets drawn into that world, so she sees it and feels it vividly - we then see the events of fifty years ago through Elsie's eyes.

Does that help?

Thanks Paul, I like the idea about Lisabeth gaining insight from the letters when she needs it, that is exactly what I am trying to do.
I will let you know how it works.

And thanks, Carlos, I will look for Labyrinth. I find too that reading someone else's writing style helps quite a bit.

Thanks so much.

Paul wrote: "That is a difficult one.

I have a similar problem. OK, mine involves racial memory and things that happened elsewhere many years ago, but they have direct bearing on the current situation. The inc..."

paul, great advice you've given cindy. also, what in the lord's name is "racial memory"?

Cindy, my current novel is a mixture of times and people, times from childhood, from one year prior to the present and the present. think of modular furniture, of arranging cubes by a child of all sorts of colors. or of tapestry. you have to enmesh the different factors together, but in a way that the reader will not be confused. reading as much as you can of others' work is a must. good luck.

Adva wrote: "Cindy, my current novel is a mixture of times and people, times from childhood, from one year prior to the present and the present. think of modular furniture, of arranging cubes by a child of all ..."

Thanks Adva. I am working on that right now.

Racial memory - probably doesn't actually exist, but imagine being able to expereince all the experiences, the lives of your direct ancestors - racial memory.

Carlos wrote: "I could give you a lengthy explanation, but it will be much easier if your read Kate Mosse's Labyrinth. She does a great job of weaving two lives almost one-thousand years apart."

Carlos, I'd like to add Octavia E. Butler's sci-fi novel Kindred. In it she weaves back and forth from slavery to contempary eras. The protagonist wanders in her dreams into history and comes upon her heritage. It is said, and I paraphrase, that Butler writes (wrote, she's deceased) with strange, hypnotic distortions. I might add that most of her novels are from a feminist perspective.

Cindy wrote: "Good morning everyone!

Here is the problem - how do you effectively switch between two time periods?
Specifically, in my story my character (Lisabeth)finds some letters(Elsie)in the attic. The ..."

I don't know how many letters are found in the attic but I'm thinking that each could be a "flash story" with time as the bridge. The problem will be not to stray from that format, follow through to a conclusion in present time. Just sayin'.

Paul wrote: "Racial memory - probably doesn't actually exist, but imagine being able to expereince all the experiences, the lives of your direct ancestors - racial memory."

Well, it might not exist but Jean Marie Auel, in her "The Clan of the Cave Bear," made a splendid plot point about it. Her principal difference between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon types, was the racial memory capacity of the former.

Paul wrote: "Racial memory - probably doesn't actually exist, but imagine being able to expereince all the experiences, the lives of your direct ancestors - racial memory."

hi Paul, i am sure you know of Karl Gustave Jung, well, he developped the idea of Collective memory, claiming we are born with memory that is being shared by our tribe, people and so forth, perhaps it has to do with "racial memory".

Well, it might not exis..."</i>

hi Carlos, see my reply to Paul, but also wish to mention that recently i read about brain neural discovery that it is possible that traumas and strong events accumulate in the brain of the mother for instance and that it somehow passes to the child, so it is acumulative. perhaps it might explain one day if this research is being developed, the matter of memories called "incarnations"

Adva wrote: "Well, it might not exis..."

hi Carlos, see my reply to Paul, but also wish to mention that recently i read about brain neural discovery that it is possible that traumas and strong events accumul..."

Paul, not all the experiences of direct ancestors but I believe some are felt as in Jung's theory. And Butler took the idea deeper in Kindred.

I'd like to follow this string to see where it's going.

Jung's notion of the collective unconscious doesn't deal with memory per se, i.e. he doesn't propose that we store specific memories of past events or the experience of our ancestors. Rather, it's a matter of thought patterns and archetypes.

Ellen, having a background in psychology, can probably expand on this.

A lot of Jung's ideas now seem to be viewed as quackery, but the idea of a collective unconscious is defensible, I think. When we look at animal behaviour and see various inherited behaviours, it's not too much of a stretch to propose a collective unconscious in humans. And it matters to writers, as these archetypes supposedly manifest themselves in stories. (Which leads us back to Joseph Campbell again.)

Anyway ... back to the original question:

A couple of ways of switching between time periods spring to mind. You can shift tenses, using the present tense for "now" and the past for, well, the past. You can use separate chapters, with the chapters named for the character corresponding to that time period (very common nowadays). You can write in two notably different voices. Anything that makes it clear to the reader will work.

The thing to remember is that while the first switch may seem awkward or confusing, the reader gets in the game pretty quickly, and works with whatever convention you establish.

Andrew wrote: "Jung's notion of the collective unconscious doesn't deal with memory per se, i.e. he doesn't propose that we store specific memories of past events or the experience of our ancestors. Rather, it's ..."

andrew, thanks for shedding some more specifics about Jung's work. i myself have phd in psychology. being tired, i do not always find the right ways to say what needs to be said more correctly so thanks for that. being an expert on drawing tests, among other things related, it is known that all over the world the evolvement of the drawing from a toddler to older child is pretty much similar. it is known of course that all men on earth have similar needs, they behave similarly, they have the needs for customs, worshiping and so forth, so Jung's idea while seems far fetched, is not at all that way. the matter of Id, super ego and ego also started being "cancelled' by modern day psychologists, but recent research i read a while ago, shows that there is some brain activity which relates to the unconscious, conscious and so forth and much more. often time great ideas have are based on observations, on insights and new sudden enlightnement, but it may take years to substantiate. as writers, we also have that knack sometimes, as can be seen in sci fi and in Jules Vern's majestic work.

Adva wrote: "it is known of course that all men on earth have similar needs, they behave similarly, they have the needs for customs, worshiping and so forth,"

I emphatically dissent with such an assertion, regardless of its source. Needs and behaviour, besides the obvious inbred stages of infantile development; differ vastly from person to person as a direct result of environmental constraints, upbringing, and clan. Worshiping and totemic needs are in themselves an artificial fallacy also nurtured by clan and social constraints. The individuals who have enjoyed a liberal upbringing—-or have been nurtured in an indoctrination-free environment—-don’t have the needs or customs of those brought up in more restrictive surroundings. A Kalahari San, a Chinese urbanite and the average North American, share many traits, but their behaviour and animist needs differ greatly.

>>>>Worshiping and totemic needs are in themselves an artificial fallacy also nurtured by clan and social constraints. The individuals who have enjoyed a liberal upbringing—-or have been nurtured in an indoctrination-free environment—-don’t have the needs or customs of those brought up in more restrictive surroundings.<<<<

And that's where is fight is today in America and within cultures.

I have to agree with Carlos, though I find this topic fascinating and I love to read different opinions and theories. I do not agree that every man ' has a need' for customs and worship and such. To me that is environmental. As Carlos pointed out above.
Personally, I have no need to worship, but I was brought up in a family where there was no great importance placed on such things and restrictions were few.

And Minnie, I think you've made a good point as well.

Human behaviour is actually much less rational and individual than you would like to believe. Needs and behaviour may differ between individuals and cultures, but those differences are superficial. There are bags of research to support that position.

A need for "worship" may not be the best way of putting it, but people do share a need for an overarching belief system that explains us. Those who aren't religious simply use nonreligious substitutes, such as faith in particle physics. It's in our wiring; there is no such thing as a true nihilist.

(And I say this as a confirmed atheist.)

I have to argue this point although I know you have a lot of research to back up your point Andrew. I am aware of what the 'belief' is but I find it too 'tidy' because there are always exceptions to the rule that cannot be explained.

I am not an athiest, nor am I religious, and I do not put much faith in particle physics. I believe what I believe because it makes sense in my mind, not because I have a need for a sytem that explains why I'm here. Honestly, I don't know that I have decided what it is that explains why we're here and what we're supposed to do. It doesn't concern me that I don't know, I don't search for answers. If something comes along that makes sense I'll file it away in my brain and be done with it.

I know that I am not the only one who feels this way, and in my opinion, I don't fit the theory that I need an overarching belief system.

You are right in saying that a good majority of the population fits the theory. Definitely. But to say every person is this way is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

The easiest way to answer that question is to point out that your response is exactly the response I'd expect from someone living in Canada at this time.

I don't say that to be smart-alecky; it's simply a fact that I have heard this one before -- in fact, every single time that this discussion comes up, I hear the same thing.

So often, in fact, that I'd be tempted to propose that there exists an overarching belief system that takes as a cornerstone the notion that we're all unique, rational, self-determined individuals ... and, of course, there is.

Someone mentioned clan of the cave bear earlier- My mother read that series to me and I used to tell all my elementary teachers that it was my favorite book.

After I was married a year or two I picked it up to read for myself and was shocked at all the sex scenes that I had no idea were there at all! I called my mom and she laughed saying that she sometimes had to skip whole chapters when she read to me. I had no idea.

Now I wonder what all those teachers thought of me as a 2nd grader declaring it was my favorite book.

Adva wrote: "it is known of course that all men on earth have similar needs...

Adva is right on at least that part. When you strip away all the superficial tinsel of civilization, at the very root of all human behaviour lie the basic core needs - which are much the same as the basic core needs of every other mammal. Whether considered as animal behaviour or psychologically (which is a subste of anumal behaviour) those needs are for:

* Breathing
* Homeostasis
* Water
* Sleep
* Food
* Sex
* Shelter

The above list comes, of course, from Maslow's hierarchy. It could be argued that we can survive without sex, but the drive to procreate is one of the strongest drives there is.

...they behave similarly, they have the needs for customs, worshiping and so forth

But there we part company. The rest are higher order requirements which are learned and which differ from culture to culture.

As for us being rational, self-determined individuals - well, it would take a considerable leap of faith on my part to believe that! I see very little evidence of rationality in most human behaviour; the majority of people do not determine their own course, but either do as they're told or do what they have to.

I considered deleting this post - after all, what's the point - but then I decided there was no point in deleting it either.

Those of you who determine that you are going to debate this rationally, have at it! :)

Carlos wrote: "I could give you a lengthy explanation, but it will be much easier if your read Kate Mosse's Labyrinth. She does a great job of weaving two lives almost one-thousand years apart."

Cindy;

I would add to your list;

Sepulchre by Kate Mosse

The Rose Labyrinth by Titania Hardie

The Secret History of The Pink Carnation by Lauren Willig

The Speckled Monster by Jennifer Lee Carol

Paul wrote: "Racial memory - probably doesn't actually exist, but imagine being able to expereince all the experiences, the lives of your direct ancestors - racial memory."

Paul,

Michelle Sagara West, in her Chronicals of Elantra series has a race of people with racial/perfect memory. It is not until the third novel that you learn this (she writes in first person and the main character is human--she has maybe four or five distinct races and each book focuses on one race...so far.).

I love the series and am anxiously awaiting the next installment (which I think doesn't come out until 2010). For those of you who are interested (I think I have them in the right order):

Cast in Shadow
Cast In Courtlight
Cast In Secret
Cast in Fury

Thanks for that. I'll see if I can get some of those and have a read.

Carlos mentioned the Clan of The Clan of the Cave Bear. In that, Neanderthals were supposed to possess inherited (epigenetic) memory, resulting in larger heads, which made labour much more difficult and infant mortality much higher. She postulated this was the reason they became extinct.

Of course, any system of symbolic language means that experience can be recorded, (e.g. by writing) and passed on anyway, rendering such devious and dubious things as ancestral memory redundant.

As for the rest, Avda--with your phD in psych we could really use your expertiese in the Psychology thread--if/when anyone asks questions there. What is your specailty?

Paul, on Maslow--I once had an instructor (he taught industrial/organizational psychology) after teaching that most of the theories in I/O psychology were based on Maslow's heirarchy, then turned around and told us that Maslow's heirarchy was wrong. It was one of those times when I wished that they would just make up their minds.

It probably is wrong. But advances in things like neurolgy don't get inherited by social sciences such as psychology and education until they're already obsolete. Education is packed with long-since discredited theories about brain function, for example.

Not just brain function, but science in general.

Though speaking of brain function, there was a program not that long ago (and I can't find it now, though I've tried) on either the Discovery channel, Science channel, TLC, etc. about recent developments in neuropsychology. I didn't catch all of it which is why I'm still looking for it, but the part I did catch was disturbing.

They had mice, that with an electrode implanted in a certain part of their brain, (can't remember where) they were able to control it with a computer. They were making it run a maze, controlling every turn--every movement really.

Fantastic development, huh?

I saw that a while back. Fascinating. Yes, I think they even had a mouse controling another mouse, directing it through a maze using Virtual Reality.

As you say, fascinating.

Wendy, I agree completely. I had a book of mine set at Court in 18th century Russia; lots of social stuff and political backbiting. I kept feeling like it was stale, and then I realized that the dialogue was fine, but all the settings were the same; one party after another. I went through and changed them all up, setting as many as I could outside or in some kind of theme, and it made everything fresher. All of a sudden instead of five identical indoor parties, I had a sleighing in the deep snows and a harvest party and a picnic and a black-and-white ball and what have you. Just making the settings various and fresh did wonders for the scenes.

Kate- I agree. If you can't do different worlds or climates- then do different rooms, areas or buildings. Helps a bunch.

I tried to be helpful and delete your extra comment above- but goofed and deleted my own instead.

So in case anyone's wondering, the point of my last post that I jsut erased was that the new star trek was great and varied climate, worlds, time, and place so that each scene was a new experience for the viewer. Very entertaining.

Wendy wrote: "Kate- I agree. If you can't do different worlds or climates- then do different rooms, areas or buildings. Helps a bunch.

I tried to be helpful and delete your extra comment above- but goofed an..."

Thanks, these are all fresh wonderful ideas, and I feel like I can approach this problem from so many angles now - one's that I had never thought of before! The different scene settings is great - love it!